Extend a spell past 2 days?

[Cowboy_ninja]

You're a bad guy and need to change a dead body into another race for a frame up. Ideally make the effect last long enough for the body to be analyzed and buried. How would you do it?

All I can think of is a Persistent & Extended casting of Alter self. Alter self would change the race and last 48 hrs. Can be accomplished by a cleric with a nightstick and DMM. Maybe send your familiar in (obtain familiar feat?) every couple of days to recast the spell.

Are there any better/optimized/cheaper ways of doing this?

Also keep in mind this a 5th lvl murder mystery adventure, so any thing you propose should be reasonably achievable by a villain of a CR appropriate for a 5th lvl dungeon.

Thanks for the ideas!

[Curmudgeon]

You can't combine Persistent Spell and Extend Spell; you get either 24 hours or 2x the normal duration of Alter Self, whichever was the last-applied effect.

[heavyfuel]

Also, how are you persisting Alter Self on someone else? It alters self.

On a side note, a mundane Disguise check can do the trick.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, how are you persisting Alter Self on someone else? It alters self.
I assume skullduggery, where the bad guy convinced the patsy to use the spell for a disguise, then turned them into a dead body.

[skypse]

Maybe buy a permanency scroll? After the desired duration passes, he can dispel the corpse back to its normal form.

[Cowboy_ninja]

Also, how are you persisting Alter Self on someone else? It alters self.

On a side note, a mundane Disguise check can do the trick.

What if it was put into a potion? Could one put a DMM persistent spell into a potion?

[ahenobarbi]

Polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) will obviously work. Though if you have access to magic of that level desintegrating the body would be much more effective.

Also you can't cast Alter Self on a corpse (it's not a creature). Casting it on a creature is easy (by making potions of it)... maybe if you animated the corpse, hid a few potions on (in) it and ordered it to do nothing but drink one of potions once in a while. Contingent Spell could also help (although limit of one of those per HD will be pretty harsh for typical zombie).

[Cowboy_ninja]

You can't combine Persistent Spell and Extend Spell; you get either 24 hours or 2x the normal duration of Alter Self, whichever was the last-applied effect.

Where does it say that?

[Cruiser1]

You can't combine Persistent Spell and Extend Spell; you get either 24 hours or 2x the normal duration of Alter Self, whichever was the last-applied effect.
That's one interpretation, and definitely a useful way for DM's to help tone down the power of Persistent Spell. Another interpretation is you get to choose the order in which effects apply, so if you apply Extend after Persistent you get a 48 hour duration. The issue of the length of Extend + Persistent has been discussed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?138156-Extended-Persistent-Spells-3-5) in many (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?262508-48-hour-buffs) other (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268496-Persistent-spell-Extended-Spell) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349435-Quick-Question-About-Persisent-Spell-Extend).

[heavyfuel]

Where does it say that?


That's one interpretation, and definitely a useful way for DM's to help tone down the power of Persistent Spell. Another interpretation is you get to choose the order in which effects apply, so if you apply Extend after Persistent you get a 48 hour duration. The issue of the length of Extend + Persistent has been discussed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?138156-Extended-Persistent-Spells-3-5) in many (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?262508-48-hour-buffs) other (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268496-Persistent-spell-Extended-Spell) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349435-Quick-Question-About-Persisent-Spell-Extend).

How can the duration of a spell, after being modified by a metamagic feat, be considered, by any interpretation, "normal" is beyond me


An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal

[skypse]

OK I got really confused. There is no prefix so I have no idea what's going on in this thread but I hope I can still be helpful.

WARNING: IF THE SUBJECT IS NOT ON PATHFINDER RULE SETTING DON'T READ THE REST.

Alter Self

Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)


DESCRIPTION
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.

Extend Spell

Benefit: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat.

Persistent Spell

Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

Level Increase: +2 (a persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.)

Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell’s effect do not benefit from this feat.

So Persistent Spell talks about saving throws (Alter Self does not allow one) and says nothing about duration.
Extend Spell on the other hand HAS duration but it is 1min/level. How exactly can those two work together for a 48 HOUR period?

EDIT:
Also this:

How can the duration of a spell, after being modified by a metamagic feat, be considered, by any interpretation, "normal" is beyond me

[Cowboy_ninja]

Polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) will obviously work. Though if you have access to magic of that level disintegrating the body would be much more effective.

Also you can't cast Alter Self on a corpse (it's not a creature). Casting it on a creature is easy (by making potions of it)... maybe if you animated the corpse, hid a few potions on (in) it and ordered it to do nothing but drink one of potions once in a while. Contingent Spell could also help (although limit of one of those per HD will be pretty harsh for typical zombie).

I was thinking that they cast alter self first THEN get killed. I saw nothing in alter self that says the target of the spell reverts back the instant they die.

[Bluydee]

Pathfinder's persistent spell is completely different from 3.5, as in 3.5 it made spells last for a day.

[skypse]

Pathfinder's persistent spell is completely different from 3.5, as in 3.5 it made spells last for a day.

Ok thanks. Sorry for interrupting then.

For what it's worth, I still believe that it could work out with a well-timed permanency/dispel magic combo, and I also agree with heavyfuel that they shouldn't/don't stuck.

[heavyfuel]

What if it was put into a potion? Could one put a DMM persistent spell into a potion?

Doesn't work. Here's the line from the SRD:


The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

[Erik Vale]

If you're the DM, Steal the Sculpt Corpse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sculpt-corpse) spell from PF, while removing the stupid will save part, instead making it based off disguise and spot, like it should be.
If you're the player, ask for it to be ported over.

In DnD, the only thing I can think of are illusions and polymorph any object. First fails because *poke*, the second due to cost.

[With a box]

Why just kill that spice and swap body?

[ahenobarbi]

I was thinking that they cast alter self first THEN get killed. I saw nothing in alter self that says the target of the spell reverts back the instant they die.


Yes, but it doesn't allow you to re-apply alter self.

[Marnath]

You guys realize that you're arguing about using DMM persist on an arcane only spell, right?

[Curmudgeon]

You guys realize that you're arguing about using DMM persist on an arcane only spell, right?
Not right. Alter Self is available to Clerics with either the Alteration or Transformation domains.

[Talya]

Not right. Alter Self is available to Clerics with either the Alteration or Transformation domains.

And Spell domain, through Anyspell.

[Feint's End]

You all think to complicated ... how about flesh to stone then shape stone and then stone to flesh? The thing might not have a working system of any sort but if only looks matter .... hey!

[Curmudgeon]

And Spell domain, through Anyspell.
I'm afraid that won't work.
Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit paragraph of the feat description:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. . . .
Anyspell allows you to read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 2nd level. Divine Metamagic only works with divine spells. You could persist Anyspell itself, but not the arcane spell which Anyspell allows you prepare (Alter Self).

[Talya]

Regardless, it's a hell of a lot of resources to spend on a spell with a 10 minute/level duration already.

I almost always had Alter Self up on my sorceress when needed at the start of combat. The few times I did it, casting one buff at the start of combat to achieve flight is no big deal. A lesser metamagic rod of extend spell is dirt cheap, and by level 6 means the spell lasts for 2 hours, 3 hours by level 9, etc. You don't need those Averiel wings if you're not going to be encountering hostilities, and few actual active crawls last more than a few hours, and outdoor encounters can usually be spotted many rounds before hostilities start.

[Cowboy_ninja]

You all think to complicated ... how about flesh to stone then shape stone and then stone to flesh? The thing might not have a working system of any sort but if only looks matter .... hey!

You've got a good grasp of what I'm trying to do here.

I have yet to fully create the villain. I'm just trying to plan the over all "murder" that the PCs are trying to solve.

So far I'm trying to frame a local Sect of Gruumsh for the murder of an elf. Elves (at least in my own campaign) wouldn't murder their own kind so they are nabbing homeless no-bodies off the street, turning them into elves, then murdering them "in the name of Gruumsh" disguised as Orcs.

That's what I have so far....

What about illusion spells? Anything that could fool a PC long enough until I drop a clue that they should dispell magic on the corpse, that would also alow the elves to get away with murder should know one figure it out?

[heavyfuel]

How about having a homebrewed ritual following the Incantation rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) from Unearthed Arcana might be what you're looking for. This rule is practically made for DMs bending the standard rules for creation of plot points. Heck, there are even guidelines for creating your own...

[Twilightwyrm]

You've got a good grasp of what I'm trying to do here.

I have yet to fully create the villain. I'm just trying to plan the over all "murder" that the PCs are trying to solve.

So far I'm trying to frame a local Sect of Gruumsh for the murder of an elf. Elves (at least in my own campaign) wouldn't murder their own kind so they are nabbing homeless no-bodies off the street, turning them into elves, then murdering them "in the name of Gruumsh" disguised as Orcs.

That's what I have so far....

What about illusion spells? Anything that could fool a PC long enough until I drop a clue that they should dispell magic on the corpse, that would also alow the elves to get away with murder should know one figure it out?

You'd best have the villains be able to cast Magic Aura as well, else the murder plot will be unraveled the way so many of the greatest DM-constructed murder plots have, by the simple application of a Detect spell. In this case, Detect Magic.

[Cowboy_ninja]

How about having a homebrewed ritual following the Incantation rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) from Unearthed Arcana might be what you're looking for. This rule is practically made for DMs bending the standard rules for creation of plot points. Heck, there are even guidelines for creating your own...

Niiiice. I forgot about these... oh the possibilities!