creating an Eldritch Scion Magus

[Elfkin_King]

I'm creating an Eldritch Scion Magus for PFS, and I was wondering what bloodlines or races would be a good choice. Its 20 point-buy, and I've been out of practice for awhile.

Edit:
Since its PFS, I can't be a Drow (which seemed the obvious choice for race) at least, not until I get the correct chronicle sheet?
As far as Bloodlines, I was thinking Aberrant, Elemental, Celestial, Destined, from ACG would be good ones. Blackblooded seems just as good as Aberrant, and Kyton gives a great AC boost. Both from the Advanced class Origins.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Someone's going to have to put together an Eldritch Scion guide sooner or later, as the archetype is somewhat radically different from a regular Magus.

Some key things to keep in mind:

1) You're a spontaneous caster. This, right off, makes one of the key Magus attack techniques (Intensified Shocking Grasp) more complicated. As with all spontaneous casters, metamagic requires a full-round action, so you can't combine metamagic with either Spell Combat or a move+attack routine.

2) You also only access Spell Combat while in "mystic focus," a special Eldritch Scion ability that costs you a swift action, a point of eldritch pool, and lasts for two rounds. Because of how much you will rely upon Spell Combat as a magus (why else play the class?) this means you'll want to invest heavily in Charisma and be quite cautious with your nova-moments. Granted, at 8th level you get to use Spell Combat all the time, but in PFS you won't get that high very fast and you probably won't stay high level for as long as you would wish.

3) You will also have competition between your Arcana and your mystic focus - both take a swift action and the same eldritch pool to activate, so you'll have to be very specific about which abilities you choose for your build. I would also recommend they cover alternative needs, so that you don't have to get them both running to land a killing shot.

These points in mind, you can't really build the Eldritch Scion to fight in the same way as a regular Magus. Lining up Spell Combat + Spellstrike + Metamagic + a Magus arcana all in one hit is almost impossible.

I would make these suggestions:

1) Pick a Bloodrager bloodline that works better for aggression. This will combine with Spell Combat and Spellstrike to be your main attack routine for a while. Abberant is great for reach and debilitating attacks. Arcane is honestly really cool, especially once you hit 8th level and can freely Haste or Displacement yourself. Destined is kinda boring but fairly reliable. Fey is kinda useful (Confusion + Charge bonuses) but you're probably better off with the free Haste from Arcane. Elemental I would avoid, as with anything that adds to your competition of swift actions in a round - for the Elemental bloodline, you need one swift to activate your bloodline via mystic focus, another swift to activate your elemental strikes, another to activate magus arcana. Celestial just seems too situational to be good.

2) Refrain from bloodlines that focus on natural weapons - these don't combine well with Spell Combat. Pick Arcana that supplement your versatility or utility options, particularly metamagic arcana (because you'll need the help as a spontaneous caster).

EDIT: 3) If I were compelled to pick a technique upon which I would focus, I think I would take the Abberant bloodline, use Frigid Touch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frigid-touch) as my go-to Spellstrike attack, and mostly pick up versatility arcana like Scroll Mastery, Spell Blending, and metamagic effects. You can crit for some seriously debilitating effects (Sickened and Staggered) with a wide crit range, stay far from melee when you want, and cover a lot of bases when you're not chopping face.

[Elfkin_King]

Someone's going to have to put together an Eldritch Scion guide sooner or later, as the archetype is somewhat radically different from a regular Magus.

Some key things to keep in mind:

1) You're a spontaneous caster. This, right off, makes one of the key Magus attack techniques (Intensified Shocking Grasp) more complicated. As with all spontaneous casters, metamagic requires a full-round action, so you can't combine metamagic with either Spell Combat or a move+attack routine.

2) You also only access Spell Combat while in "mystic focus," a special Eldritch Scion ability that costs you a swift action, a point of eldritch pool, and lasts for two rounds. Because of how much you will rely upon Spell Combat as a magus (why else play the class?) this means you'll want to invest heavily in Charisma and be quite cautious with your nova-moments. Granted, at 8th level you get to use Spell Combat all the time, but in PFS you won't get that high very fast and you probably won't stay high level for as long as you would wish.

3) You will also have competition between your Arcana and your mystic focus - both take a swift action and the same eldritch pool to activate, so you'll have to be very specific about which abilities you choose for your build. I would also recommend they cover alternative needs, so that you don't have to get them both running to land a killing shot.

These points in mind, you can't really build the Eldritch Scion to fight in the same way as a regular Magus. Lining up Spell Combat + Spellstrike + Metamagic + a Magus arcana all in one hit is almost impossible.

I would make these suggestions:

1) Pick a Bloodrager bloodline that works better for aggression. This will combine with Spell Combat and Spellstrike to be your main attack routine for a while. Abberant is great for reach and debilitating attacks. Arcane is honestly really cool, especially once you hit 8th level and can freely Haste or Displacement yourself. Destined is kinda boring but fairly reliable. Fey is kinda useful (Confusion + Charge bonuses) but you're probably better off with the free Haste from Arcane. Elemental I would avoid, as with anything that adds to your competition of swift actions in a round - for the Elemental bloodline, you need one swift to activate your bloodline via mystic focus, another swift to activate your elemental strikes, another to activate magus arcana. Celestial just seems too situational to be good.

2) Refrain from bloodlines that focus on natural weapons - these don't combine well with Spell Combat. Pick Arcana that supplement your versatility or utility options, particularly metamagic arcana (because you'll need the help as a spontaneous caster).

EDIT: 3) If I were compelled to pick a technique upon which I would focus, I think I would take the Abberant bloodline, use Frigid Touch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/frigid-touch) as my go-to Spellstrike attack, and mostly pick up versatility arcana like Scroll Mastery, Spell Blending, and metamagic effects. You can crit for some seriously debilitating effects (Sickened and Staggered) with a wide crit range, stay far from melee when you want, and cover a lot of bases when you're not chopping face.
I think aberrant might be the best choice, and maybe playing a Kitsune, since it gives the best stat boosts.

Edit: yeah, I think a. Aberrant blooded Kitsune, and take your advice for aiming for the more utility rather than boosting Arcana.
Will the spell blending work with it being spontaneous? Seems like a great way to get more spells learned for a spontaneous caster, and I could use more of my actual feats for melee. I'll probably keep with the stereotypical Scimitar to keep the feat tax down. Are there any magic feats I should keep an eye out for? I'm not too familiar with magic feats/classes.
Would the Familiar Arcana for the Eldritch Scion Archetype? I haven't seen it mentioned at all for any of the few things I've seen.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Extra Spells Known (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/extra-spells-known) may be helpful for you to increase your versatility. It's a little tricky to make work, but you just have to plan around when to take it.

The Spell Blending (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/spell-blending-ex) ability says explicitly, the magus "adds this spell to his spellbook and list of magus spells known." I think that's a pretty clear statement that you can add it to your spontaneous casting list of spells known.

The Familiar arcana wouldn't be illegal. I would almost always take a Familiar if available, they're just so good at broadening your abilities and, in later levels, improving your action economy. I know it's been said dozens of times, but I can personally attest to the power of firing off my spells for a round, then letting my Familiar turn me invisible (via a wand) and sneaking 15' away or so. It's just so lovely to have those extra spells available when you need them.

Re: magic feats, I assume you mean metamagic feats - so please correct me if I'm wrong.

For the most part, I would play the caster part of your Eldritch Scion like I would a lower-level sorcerer - that is, utility, battlefield control, etc. You can mix your spells and melee attacks from early in your career, so certainly pick a good selection of spells that you can use offensively. But for metamagic, you won't get that option (see Spell Combat notes, above). As such, I would suggest you make metamagic choices which really help you devastate large enemy formations.

Rime Spell is spectacular for its cost. If you were to precede combat with a Rime Frostbite, it will load you up with 1/level attacks which add 1d6+level nonlethal cold damage and entangle your foes. A Rime Ice Storm, while high level, will stop an enemy advance very cleanly.

Empower Spell is still pretty powerful. Dazing spell is devastating. Persistent Spell combined with a good crowd control (like Glitterdust) can shut down encounters.

If you really want to invest in metamagic feats, pick up a Staff of the Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/staves/staff-of-the-master-necromancy) and learn Ray of Enfeeblement to recharge it. You might have to work around wielding the Staff as a melee weapon for a while, but, "Using the staff (to add free metamagic effects to a spell) does not increase the casting time of the spell."

[Psyren]

1) You're a spontaneous caster. This, right off, makes one of the key Magus attack techniques (Intensified Shocking Grasp) more complicated. As with all spontaneous casters, metamagic requires a full-round action, so you can't combine metamagic with either Spell Combat or a move+attack routine.

True, but Spontaneous Metafocus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spontaneous-metafocus) will fix that problem pretty easily and comes online long before you need to worry about Intensify Spell.



2) Refrain from bloodlines that focus on natural weapons - these don't combine well with Spell Combat. Pick Arcana that supplement your versatility or utility options, particularly metamagic arcana (because you'll need the help as a spontaneous caster).

If your natural weapon is a claw (e.g. Draconic/Abyssal) or slam, they can be used with Spell Combat just fine. For any others, you can pick up the Natural Spell Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/natural-spell-combat-ex) arcana.

Your points are valid of course but the ES has ways to compensate for some of the limitations above, and the bloodlines are pretty nice in many cases - often being the equivalent of free spells and arcana packages in and of themselves.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Oh of course, Psyren. There are usually ways of overcoming weaknesses. More than anything, I'm trying to identify the specific things an Eldritch Scion can do that require a different approach to a standard Magus - basically to address the question, "If we're going to spend feats / arcana making this more like the original class, why play this weird and complicated archetype?"

Natural Spell Combat is a strange mix in my opinion. I really like the idea of loading up, say, a Rime Frostbite with seven natural attacks and dealing an extra 70-80 cold damage with a full attack.

Honestly, I feel that the biggest benefit one gets from the Eldritch Scion is the Bloodline. Those can act as a bunch of swift-action buffs, and properly selected I feel that these can add loads to the Magus action economy that Spell Combat can supplement even further.

[Kurald Galain]

I would suggest taking a bloodline that doesn't require you to be in rage (so you can use it all the time, not just when you spend pool points), then pick magus arcana that don't require pool points either. Then use pool points whenever you need spell combat.

[grarrrg]

I would suggest taking a bloodline that doesn't require you to be in rage (so you can use it all the time, not just when you spend pool points)

Does not compute.

The default ruling is:
"Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage"

A quick scan reveals _two_ bloodlines that have an 'always-on' before level 20 (I may have missed one, it was a quick scan).
Arcane grants extra AoO's (with limits) at level 12
Fey lets you not be attacked by Animals/Plants, and gives you Tree-Teleport at level 16

Every other Bloodline seems to have _one_ ability that kicks in at level 20 that is 'always-on'.

[Kurald Galain]

Does not compute.

The default ruling is:
"Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage"

Really? Because Eldritch Scion reads, "To use any ability that normally functions when in a bloodrage, an eldritch scion must spend a point from his eldritch pool". For example, the Abyssal bloodline states that you grow claws while bloodraging, meaning you'd need to spend a pool point on that; whereas the Draconic bloodline simply states that you grow claws, meaning you wouldn't need any pool points for that. At least that's the way I've read it so far.

[Elfkin_King]

The reason I want the ES over the standard is because I hate preparing spells and spell slots. And I'm taking all the advice into consideration. I just want to make sure that the arcanas I are good ones and that they are legal.

I hope there is a clarification with some of them for the ES and some official rulings.

Spell blending seems iffy, although its really nice if its valid. Extra Spells Known is 3rd party, so I don't think its pfs legal.

[grarrrg]

Really? Because Eldritch Scion reads, "To use any ability that normally functions when in a bloodrage, an eldritch scion must spend a point from his eldritch pool". For example, the Abyssal bloodline states that you grow claws while bloodraging, meaning you'd need to spend a pool point on that; whereas the Draconic bloodline simply states that you grow claws, meaning you wouldn't need any pool points for that. At least that's the way I've read it so far.

I'm afraid so.
Complete text of the Bloodrage Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager) ability:

When a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, he often takes on a physical transformation influenced by his bloodline and powered by the magic that roils within him. Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal.

Ergo, unless specifically stated otherwise, ALL powers are 'during bloodrage only'.

Eldritch Scion doesn't change what does/doesn't function in a Bloodrage, so except for most level 20 powers, and the couple I listed before, they must spend an Arcane Point for practically everything.

As for why some powers say "this only works during Bloodrage", I'd chalk that up to "ACG is horribly edited/proof-read".



Extra Spells Known is 3rd party, so I don't think its pfs legal.
Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) is what you want. It does virtually the same thing.

[Elfkin_King]

I'm afraid so.
Complete text of the Bloodrage Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager) ability:


Ergo, unless specifically stated otherwise, ALL powers are 'during bloodrage only'.

Eldritch Scion doesn't change what does/doesn't function in a Bloodrage, so except for most level 20 powers, and the couple I listed before, they must spend an Arcane Point for practically everything.

As for why some powers say "this only works during Bloodrage", I'd chalk that up to "ACG is horribly edited/proof-read".



Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana) is what you want. It does virtually the same thing.

Thanks, Grarrg :)

Any suggestions on race, other than Kitsune, that's PFS legal?

[Psyren]

Fetchlings and Dhampirs are other Dex/Cha races that are legal. I don't know that either of them is better than Kitsune however.

A cool option if you have a chronicle for one would be Hogoblins, which are PFS legal now that Monster Codex has come out. They make great magi due to Pit Boss which gives them free whip proficiency, and whips work with Slashing Grace; plus they have Darkvision.

[Elfkin_King]

Fetchlings and Dhampirs are other Dex/Cha races that are legal. I don't know that either of them is better than Kitsune however.

A cool option if you have a chronicle for one would be Hogoblins, which are PFS legal now that Monster Codex has come out. They make great magi due to Pit Boss which gives them free whip proficiency, and whips work with Slashing Grace; plus they have Darkvision.

No chronicles yet. I haven't even played my first session with PFS yet.

Is there a guide or list of all the touch/ranged touch spells for the magus?

[Kurald Galain]

Any suggestions on race, other than Kitsune, that's PFS legal?
Both half-orc and tengu have some useful racial abilities that a magus could want. Aside from that, there's a lot of decent feats for a magus, so human is as good a choice as ever.


Is there a guide or list of all the touch/ranged touch spells for the magus?
d20pfsrd.org offers an excellent detailed spell search engine.

That said, the obvious ones at low level are Shocking Grasp, Snowball, Frostbite, Chill Touch, Scorching Ray, Frigid Touch, and Sickening Strikes.

[Elfkin_King]

All of which sounds like a good idea.

Has there been any official rulings on what does and does not work with the Eldritch Scion as far as Arcana goes?

[Psyren]

Has there been any official rulings on what does and does not work with the Eldritch Scion as far as Arcana goes?

The only rule I know of is that you use Cha instead of Int where that matters. Is there a specific arcana you're worried about?

[Elfkin_King]

The only rule I know of is that you use Cha instead of Int where that matters. Is there a specific arcana you're worried about?

Spell Blending is the only one I can think of at the moment.
And Originally, I was going to ask if having a Blade Bound Eldritch Scion would be kosher, but I think it is after reviewing what the Eldritch Pool states: "This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool."

[Psyren]

Yes, Bladebound is legal (doesn't replace anything.)

Well, it does modify arcane pool, but Eldritch Scion seems to override that by letting you use rules elements that work with an arcane pool normally anyway.

Yes, Spell Blending works (explicitly adds to spells known and to spell list, thus it sidesteps the FAQ from earlier this year.)

[Elfkin_King]

Yes, Bladebound is legal (doesn't replace anything.)

Well, it does modify arcane pool, but Eldritch Scion seems to override that by letting you use rules elements that work with an arcane pool normally anyway.

Yes, Spell Blending works (explicitly adds to spells known and to spell list, thus it sidesteps the FAQ from earlier this year.)

So, I could use the Arcana and the Feat there to abuse spells into my Spells Known, although there's a point where it becomes kinda pointless, and I would guess that there's a point where it's "not viable enough yet". Good to know, and good things to consider.

I may end up turning all this information into an Eldritch Scion Handbook later.

Are there any other archetypes that you can think of that would fit with the ES? I think that Spell Blade does, technically, but not so much mechanically. Same goes for the Staff Magus and the Greensting Slayer. Although the Eldritch Scion Staff Magus, the Blade Bound Eldritch Scion, and the Green Sting Slayer Eldritch Scion may all be viable in their own right, all of which add a very different style of play. (Does the Greensting Slayer ES combination sound like a Wetboy from the Night Angel Trilogy to anyone else?).

I need to set up or find a strait post where someone has listed out all the touch/ranged touch spells and with a rating system, and any other spells that would be a good idea. Essentially a "Magus Spell Handbook". [There's 50-60 spells that fall under touch/ranged touch between the Magus and the Wizard, so weeding out should be done there.]

I understand that Metamagic feats for an Eldtritch Scion gets a little sticky, but choosing Spontaneous Metafocus is all but required, and you only get a few spells (I would honestly say 1-3 spells chosen) otherwise it's too feat heavy.

The best Bloodlines are going to be ones that will compliment the Magi's physical abilities, unless you're going for the Mage Hunter, and then the Arcane Bloodline seems great for that. I'd even go so far as to say that any of the bloodlines that offer reach (Aberrant or Kyton) are really good and worth it just for that.

Need to take into consideration the "str or dex" choice, especially since unless you're going Eldritch Scion Staff Magus, you're ignoring and rendering useless the ability to use heavier armors at later levels.

As far as races go: Halflings, Kitsune's, Azata-blooded Aasimar, Div-/Rackshasa- spawned Tiefling, Fetchling, Tengu,Ifrits, Drow (if available) and (of course) Humans, Half-elves, and Half-Orcs [for Dex builds] I would give gnomes an honorable mention here, despite not gaining an extra dex.
Whereas, if you're aiming towards a more STR build: Angel-blooded aasimar, Pitborn Tiefling, Suli, and (of course) Half-Orcs, Half-Elves and Humans.
Of All these only the Gnome, Halfling, Half Elf, Half Orc, Suli, Tiefling, and Humans get special Favored Class bonuses aside from HP or Skill Points.

Is there any thing that I've missed or should add to that list? xD

[Psyren]

Hobgoblins (+2 Dex, +2 Con and darkvision) are a great race for them too. Fluffwise they hate wizardry, so making one a magus before would've been tricky, but an Eldritch Scion is perfect for them as a very martially-inclined sorcerer. More importantly though, they get whip proficiency (Pit Boss racial) for free, giving you an easy vector for spellstrike early on and dex to damage later with Slashing Grace.

[Elfkin_King]

Hobgoblins (+2 Dex, +2 Con and darkvision) are a great race for them too. Fluffwise they hate wizardry, so making one a magus before would've been tricky, but an Eldritch Scion is perfect for them as a very martially-inclined sorcerer. More importantly though, they get whip proficiency (Pit Boss racial) for free, giving you an easy vector for spellstrike early on and dex to damage later with Slashing Grace.

That's true. I figure between Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance, there's a good set of options for Dex to damage for Dex builds.
Can you Power Attack while using Spell Strike/Spell Combat? It's not something I thought about too much before, due to the attack penalties incurred as is, but assuming someone is comfortable with their attack levels it should be a viable thing.

[Psyren]

That's true. I figure between Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance, there's a good set of options for Dex to damage for Dex builds.
Can you Power Attack while using Spell Strike/Spell Combat? It's not something I thought about too much before, due to the attack penalties incurred as is, but assuming someone is comfortable with their attack levels it should be a viable thing.

Yes you can, though honestly for me it wouldn't be worth the 13 Str in the stat budget on a dex build unless the game was high point buy. Furthermore, you can't wield the weapon in both hands and use spell combat, so you only get the 1:2 as opposed to 1:3 ratio.

[Kurald Galain]

I've tried making a whip magus, but found it underwhelming. On the one hand, you need to invest quite a lot of feats in the whip before it actually works. On the other hand, the main effect of spellstriking with a whip is that you convert a touch attack (which are very easy to hit with) to a regular attack (which are not nearly so easy). Generally, instead of casting (e.g.) Shocking Grasp through your whip, it's better to cast it through your hand (note that you can avoid OAs by casting, five-foot-stepping, then touching).

The main reason to cast spells through a scimitar is its crit range.


Also, don't use Power Attack on a magus; with spellstrike you do plenty of damage already, and as a partial-BAB class you shouldn't take the to-hit penalty. If you really want to boost your damage, try Arcane Strike or a level in draconic sorcerer.

[Psyren]

Whips have 15ft. reach though and can strike adjacent foes. That's a very hard combination to find in a 1-hand weapon and makes spell combat pretty painless since you don't have to keep 5-foot stepping or casting defensively. Combine with Lunge and you can spellstrike even Huge creatures in relative safety.

[Elfkin_King]

Whips have 15ft. reach though and can strike adjacent foes. That's a very hard combination to find in a 1-hand weapon and makes spell combat pretty painless since you don't have to keep 5-foot stepping or casting defensively. Combine with Lunge and you can spellstrike even Huge creatures in relative safety.

I'm not gonna lie. The idea of using a whip has never been appealing to me, not in the slightest. Until this. :P

That being said: I think it's safe to say that the "whip master Magus" isn't high on weapon dmg, but just a neat way to have a melee caster that functions great with the Magus abilities. Most of your damage, unless I'm mistaken, is going to come from your spells, which is I would think to be true from a regular Magus of any sort, but doubly so from the "whip master" here. But you would have a ridiculous chance to hit, since you're not going defensive, you're safe, and you could probably afford Power Attack, IF you had the extra points/stat rolls for it. I would think that that would keep that Magus pretty viable. Hell, you might not be criting as much as any other kind of magus (since I would assume that most would aim for more of a crit build), but that way DOES make it easier to hit, if all your hits are just touch attacks. I'm gonna have to review the whip and take it into consideration. :)

EDIT: Scorprian whip might not be a bad idea here, either, right?

[Psyren]

Scorpion Whip requires whip proficiency to use any of the special whip stuff like reach (which I'm not even sure it gets - the PFSRD seems to think so but Ultimate Equipment is much less clear.) So I recommend skipping it personally and just going with the regular whip.

[Elfkin_King]

Scorpion Whip requires whip proficiency to use any of the special whip stuff like reach (which I'm not even sure it gets - the PFSRD seems to think so but Ultimate Equipment is much less clear.) So I recommend skipping it personally and just going with the regular whip.

Whips do too, don't they? They are listed under "Exotic". What I can't find is what says you only need a touch attack on a whip, instead of the regular attack.
As far as Scorpion whips, it's the same thing it just as razors imbedded in it, and it specifically states that if you are proficient in whips, then you are in Scorpion Whips.

[Psyren]

Whips do too, don't they? They are listed under "Exotic". What I can't find is what says you only need a touch attack on a whip, instead of the regular attack.

Right, but to get reach with a whip, you only need "EWP: Whip." To get reach with a Scorpion Whip, you need both "EWP: Whip" and "EWP: Scorpion Whip."

Not sure what you mean with the touch attack thing, I never said whip attacks were touch attacks.



As far as Scorpion whips, it's the same thing it just as razors imbedded in it, and it specifically states that if you are proficient in whips, then you are in Scorpion Whips.

No, it says if you are proficient in whips you can use a scorpion whip as though it is one. Meaning you can use it to disarm or with whip mastery etc. Scorpion Whips are still a separate weapon and you'll still take nonproficiency penalties if you're not proficient in them.

[Elfkin_King]

Right, but to get reach with a whip, you only need "EWP: Whip." To get reach with a Scorpion Whip, you need both "EWP: Whip" and "EWP: Scorpion Whip."

Not sure what you mean with the touch attack thing, I never said whip attacks were touch attacks.



No, it says if you are proficient in whips you can use a scorpion whip as though it is one. Meaning you can use it to disarm or with whip mastery etc. Scorpion Whips are still a separate weapon and you'll still take nonproficiency penalties if you're not proficient in them.

NVM, I think I just misunderstood Galain.