Need ''Ubercharger'' build

[Sneaky Hue]

Hello.
Earlier today i started another thread ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381622-Need-Dwarf-with-a-big-axe-Build )
But, after getting more info from my soon to be DM, the need and focus of my build needed to change. So here, we start fresh.


I need help creating a Ubercharger ( or just charger, i'm not sure what to call it ) build.
A not mounted, not ToB based, not fun-stealing badass Orc with a Two Handed Weapon ( not spiked chain ) that deals a lot of damage.

Race: Water Orc or Half Orc

Starting Level: 4

Desired progression: 1 to 20

Ability Points: Rolled stats before racial adjustments, 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 10.

Party Composition: Monk, Rogue, Wizard, Barbarian and maybe a Paladin. Yes, i know, we are missing a Cleric. I was going to be the Cleric but, they limited Casters acess to books a LOT ( like, core only ) and still
considered my character OP and asked me to change. So i dropped the class.

Allowed Books: DM made his own tier list, trying to balance things so, Character have less or more acess to books depending on caster levels. I have no caster levels, so my books are Core books, up to 5 Complete Series Books, Players guide to Faerun, Unearthed Arcana and ONE more book ( I'm holding back on ToB, he will probably complain about it )

Big no-no's: No flaws, no templates and no Psionics.

Some questions i have: Should i be in Full Plate for this kind of build? What weapon i use? Is Frienzed Berserker worth the risk of decaptating allies?


I need help here BAD guy's, i'm rusty and 3.5 is NOT my area of expertise, but i'm excited like a dog to play RPG's again so, please, hand hold me as much as possible.

Sorry for my mediocre English and thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, Water Orc, is less than optimal. You need a built playable from 4th level and up, and Water Orc is only optimal if you can sneak in Orc Paragon without having to play it the level. If you don't take a level of Orc Paragon at least once, you're stuck with Light Sensitivity, which is a pain. Half-Orc is easier to work with: it may not be as strong, but it's nowhere near as problematic: with Water Orc, you'll have less levels to work with, Light Sensitivity until you take Orc Paragon, and a DM glaring at you for taking a race from Unearthed Arcana.

I'm currently finishing up my response to the previous thread; once I've figured out if it can kill the tarrasque in one round or not, I'll post it here.

[Red Fel]

First point: Are you sure you want an Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm), instead of a Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#halfOrcs)? The Orc may have beefier stats, but it suffers very badly from Light Sensitivity (although there are items to treat that). The Half-Orc has milder stats, but (1) doesn't take a Wis penalty, which is nice, and (2) doesn't suffer from Light Sensitivity. Just something to consider.

There's another reason to take Half-Orc: Racial Substitution Levels. At level 2, a Half-Orc Barbarian can lose Uncanny Dodge and gain +4 to attacks (but -4 to AC) while charging. There are others, but it depends on how long you want to stay with Barbarian.

So let's look at some basics. Your first two levels should be Barbarian. At Barbarian 1, you will take the Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), which replaces your Fast Movement ability. Unlike Fast Movement, Pounce applies regardless of what armor you're wearing, so when you later take Fighter levels, you can upgrade to full plate if you want to and still enjoy the benefit of Pounce. You will also replace Rage with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). This changes how your Rage works; basically, you lose the +4 to Con, +2 to Will saves, and -2 to AC, and instead gain +2 to AC and Reflex saves. You can also take an additional attack while raging, at the cost of -2 to hit on all attacks that turn. It's a good thing.

At second level, you will replace Uncanny Dodge with Reckless Charge. At this point: Thanks to Pounce, you can take a full attack while charging. Thanks to Whirling Frenzy, you make an extra attack on that charge (if you're raging while charging). Thanks to Reckless Charge, you gain +4 to all attacks while charging, offsetting the -2 from Whirling Frenzy. Thanks to Whirling Frenzy, you gain +2 AC while raging, offsetting the -4 AC from Reckless Charge.
See how smoothly it all fits together?

That's just the start, of course. Admittedly, uberchargers aren't my specialty, so I'll leave the rest to others who know better.

[Sneaky Hue]

Firstly, Water Orc, is less than optimal. You need a built playable from 4th level and up, and Water Orc is only optimal if you can sneak in Orc Paragon without having to play it the level. If you don't take a level of Orc Paragon at least once, you're stuck with Light Sensitivity, which is a pain. Half-Orc is easier to work with: it may not be as strong, but it's nowhere near as problematic: with Water Orc, you'll have less levels to work with, Light Sensitivity until you take Orc Paragon, and a DM glaring at you for taking a race from Unearthed Arcana.

I'm currently finishing up my response to the previous thread; once I've figured out if it can kill the tarrasque in one round or not, I'll post it here.

I totally over looked the light sensitivity.
Is the dip in Orc Paragon worth in order to play the race? I can stomach taking -1 to hit for a few levels.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, the real problem from my point of view is spending a level getting rid of a penalty you didn't need to have. I'd rather spend that level becoming a better ubercharger. Red Fel's build is pretty cool, but I'm still going to post mine.

[Sneaky Hue]

First point: Are you sure you want an Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm), instead of a Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#halfOrcs)? The Orc may have beefier stats, but it suffers very badly from Light Sensitivity (although there are items to treat that). The Half-Orc has milder stats, but (1) doesn't take a Wis penalty, which is nice, and (2) doesn't suffer from Light Sensitivity. Just something to consider.

There's another reason to take Half-Orc: Racial Substitution Levels. At level 2, a Half-Orc Barbarian can lose Uncanny Dodge and gain +4 to attacks (but -4 to AC) while charging. There are others, but it depends on how long you want to stay with Barbarian.

So let's look at some basics. Your first two levels should be Barbarian. At Barbarian 1, you will take the Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), which replaces your Fast Movement ability. Unlike Fast Movement, Pounce applies regardless of what armor you're wearing, so when you later take Fighter levels, you can upgrade to full plate if you want to and still enjoy the benefit of Pounce. You will also replace Rage with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). This changes how your Rage works; basically, you lose the +4 to Con, +2 to Will saves, and -2 to AC, and instead gain +2 to AC and Reflex saves. You can also take an additional attack while raging, at the cost of -2 to hit on all attacks that turn. It's a good thing.

At second level, you will replace Uncanny Dodge with Reckless Charge. At this point: Thanks to Pounce, you can take a full attack while charging. Thanks to Whirling Frenzy, you make an extra attack on that charge (if you're raging while charging). Thanks to Reckless Charge, you gain +4 to all attacks while charging, offsetting the -2 from Whirling Frenzy. Thanks to Whirling Frenzy, you gain +2 AC while raging, offsetting the -4 AC from Reckless Charge.
See how smoothly it all fits together?

That's just the start, of course. Admittedly, uberchargers aren't my specialty, so I'll leave the rest to others who know better.

I see your point. Half Orc may be the better choice indeed.
I mean, Water Orc woul put me at 20 str at level 4, that's why it got my atention.

[Sneaky Hue]

Well, the real problem from my point of view is spending a level getting rid of a penalty you didn't need to have. I'd rather spend that level becoming a better ubercharger. Red Fel's build is pretty cool, but I'm still going to post mine.

I see.
I take it Orc Paragon is not a good dip, then.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh, a single level gets rid of your Light Sensitivity and gets extends your darkvision. It's a great dip. It's just one of those things that better if you can have it in your character's backstory than something you have to play through: it's like a build that takes Power Attack at first level; how often are they going to use that when it barely gives them anything?

EDIT: It's especially good in whatever-stalt, since you've got extra levels to spare, so it's not as much of a waste.

[Sneaky Hue]

Oh, a single level gets rid of your Light Sensitivity and gets extends your darkvision. It's a great dip. It's just one of those things that better if you can have it in your character's backstory than something you have to play through: it's like a build that takes Power Attack at first level; how often are they going to use that when it barely gives them anything?

EDIT: It's especially good in whatever-stalt, since you've got extra levels to spare, so it's not as much of a waste.

You know what? I'm down to diping a level on it to play a Water Orc, then. :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

Race; Half-Orc
Levels: Fighter (Dungeoncrasher) 2/Stoneblessed (Goliath) 3/Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem; Goliath Racial ACF 1; Half-Orc ACF 2) 2/Fighter +14/Barbarian +1
Stats (before adj.): 15/13/14/13/13/10
Stats (after adj.): 17/13/14/11/13/8
Skills: Appraise 2/Craft (stoneworking) 5 by ECL 3, everything else possible in Jump.
Feats:
--ECL 1: Power Attack
--ECL 1, Fighter 1: Improved Bull Rush
--ECL 3: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
--ECL 6: Extra Rage
--ECL 8, Fighter 4: Shock Trooper
--ECL 9: Knockback
--ECL 12: Extra Rage
--ECL 13, Fighter 8: Leap Attack
--ECL 15: Reckless Rage
--ECL 15, Fighter 10: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
--ECL 17, Fighter 12: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
--ECL 18: Extra Rage
--ECL 19, Fighter 14: Slashing Flurry

Okay, so this build really takes off once it hits ECL 10: by that point, when you charge, you've got...

--BAB +9/+4
--Str 19
--Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper
--Mountain Rage, bringing Knockback into play
--Pounce
--Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6

Your turn begins; you hulk out, growing to Large size, and bound towards the enemy at a breakneck pace. You bring your flail to bear against the enemy with his back to the wall and make your attack. Without any spells or items, you're looking at +22/+17 attack bonus, 2d6+27 per hit, and a free bull rush per hit; your bull rush opposed check is +32, and if either one succeeds, it drives your foe into the wall, dealing 8d6+18 damage to them on top of your weapon damage; this can happen for each attack.

It gets even more ridiculous at ECL 20. Instead of just saying what the bonuses are, I'm going to show where they all come from and how the fit together in the spoiler below where our friend, now equipped with a couple of items, charges the tarrasque, which has its back to a cliff face.

Let's add just two magic items: a +5 Keen Greatsword of Speed, and a Belt of Giant's Strength +6. Keep in mind that neither of these items is truly optimal, nor that difficult to acquire, nor have we used even half of our WBL to obtain them.

Str/mod: 36/+13 (Base 15+Racial 2+Level 5+Mountain Rage 6+Reckless Rage 2+Belt 6)
Attack: +40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25 (Base 19/14/9/4+Str 13+Feats 3+Enh. 5+Charge 6-Slashing Flurry 5-Size 1)
Damage: 2d6+85 (Base 2d6+Str 19+Feats 4+Enh. 5+PA 57)
Crit: 17-20/x2
Bull Rush opposed bonus: +61 (Str 13+Charge 2+IBR 4+Large 4+Knockback 38)

Now that that's done, I'm going to calculate the damage per round this guy does to the tarrasque. Be right back!

...

:smalleek: Even with it's high AC, even with its DR...if it's against a wall, this ubercharger can run it down. The average damage this guy does in a round is within spitting distance of the tarrasques average HP. it's close enough that a single buff spell increasing damage by several points could make a serious difference. It's close enough that better than average rolls will take it down.
According to my calculations, it's close. Real close. Like, within 20-30 HP close. A single buff spell could make the difference between the tarrasque living and dying. In closing...

Belt of Giant's Strength +6: 36000 gp.
+2 Keen Greatsword of Speed: 128,350 gp.
The look on your DM's face when you say you can reliably one-shot the tarrasque if it's positioned correctly: priceless.

The point of the build

The ubercharger focuses on two things: firstly, huge damage via Shock Trooper and Leap Attack; secondly, using Knockback and Shock Trooper to get a free guaranteed successful bull rush attached to every attack. Combine these with a barbarian and a dungeoncrasher, and you have a recipe for a DPR pie. The only downside to this build is that, given your DM, you might have trouble convincing him to let you qualify for Knockback via Mountain Rage; if this is a problem, either adjust the build accordingly, or just go with Red Fel's.

[Ferronach]

You could always go with Goliath as opposed to H.Orc/water orc. The powerful build portion can be very nice.
Another option is Warforged because of the immuntites and the fact that rage does not fatigue you after it has spent :)

[Sneaky Hue]

Race; Half-Orc
Levels: Fighter (Dungeoncrasher) 2/Stoneblessed (Goliath) 3/Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem; Goliath Racial ACF 1; Half-Orc ACF 2) 2/Fighter +14/Barbarian +1
Stats (before adj.): 15/13/14/13/13/10
Stats (after adj.): 17/13/14/11/13/8
Skills: Appraise 2/Craft (stoneworking) 5 by ECL 3, everything else possible in Jump.
Feats:
--ECL 1: Power Attack
--ECL 1, Fighter 1: Improved Bull Rush
--ECL 3: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
--ECL 6: Extra Rage
--ECL 8, Fighter 4: Shock Trooper
--ECL 9: Knockback
--ECL 12: Extra Rage
--ECL 13, Fighter 8: Leap Attack
--ECL 15: Reckless Rage
--ECL 15, Fighter 10: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
--ECL 17, Fighter 12: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
--ECL 18: Extra Rage
--ECL 19, Fighter 14: Slashing Flurry

Okay, so this build really takes off once it hits ECL 10: by that point, when you charge, you've got...

--BAB +9/+4
--Str 19
--Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper
--Mountain Rage, bringing Knockback into play
--Pounce
--Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6

Your turn begins; you hulk out, growing to Large size, and bound towards the enemy at a breakneck pace. You bring your flail to bear against the enemy with his back to the wall and make your attack. Without any spells or items, you're looking at +22/+17 attack bonus, 2d6+27 per hit, and a free bull rush per hit; your bull rush opposed check is +32, and if either one succeeds, it drives your foe into the wall, dealing 8d6+18 damage to them on top of your weapon damage; this can happen for each attack.

It gets even more ridiculous at ECL 20. Instead of just saying what the bonuses are, I'm going to show where they all come from and how the fit together in the spoiler below where our friend, now equipped with a couple of items, charges the tarrasque, which has its back to a cliff face.

Let's add just two magic items: a +5 Keen Greatsword of Speed, and a Belt of Giant's Strength +6. Keep in mind that neither of these items is truly optimal, nor that difficult to acquire, nor have we used even half of our WBL to obtain them.

Str/mod: 36/+13 (Base 15+Racial 2+Level 5+Mountain Rage 6+Reckless Rage 2+Belt 6)
Attack: +40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25 (Base 19/14/9/4+Str 13+Feats 3+Enh. 5+Charge 6-Slashing Flurry 5-Size 1)
Damage: 2d6+85 (Base 2d6+Str 19+Feats 4+Enh. 5+PA 57)
Crit: 17-20/x2
Bull Rush opposed bonus: +61 (Str 13+Charge 2+IBR 4+Large 4+Knockback 38)

Now that that's done, I'm going to calculate the damage per round this guy does to the tarrasque. Be right back!

...

:smalleek: Even with it's high AC, even with its DR...if it's against a wall, this ubercharger can run it down. The average damage this guy does in a round is within spitting distance of the tarrasques average HP. it's close enough that a single buff spell increasing damage by several points could make a serious difference. It's close enough that better than average rolls will take it down.
According to my calculations, it's close. Real close. Like, within 20-30 HP close. A single buff spell could make the difference between the tarrasque living and dying. In closing...

Belt of Giant's Strength +6: 36000 gp.
+2 Keen Greatsword of Speed: 128,350 gp.
The look on your DM's face when you say you can reliably one-shot the tarrasque if it's positioned correctly: priceless.

The point of the build

The ubercharger focuses on two things: firstly, huge damage via Shock Trooper and Leap Attack; secondly, using Knockback and Shock Trooper to get a free guaranteed successful bull rush attached to every attack. Combine these with a barbarian and a dungeoncrasher, and you have a recipe for a DPR pie. The only downside to this build is that, given your DM, you might have trouble convincing him to let you qualify for Knockback via Mountain Rage; if this is a problem, either adjust the build accordingly, or just go with Red Fel's.


Ok, i like the concept.
But there is a few problems.
I think more then 4 classes will cause a big debate with my DM.
Also and more important, i think dungeoncrasher and stoneblooded are outside of my books limit.
Also, why not the Barb as first level? I mean, full 12 hit dice to begin with and pounce.

Lets say i go Water Orc.
and then go for somenthing like....1 level of spirit totem barbarian, a dip into orc paragon at some point and the rest of the build with figther (PHB) and Frienzed Berserker, following your feat selection. would that work?

[Red Fel]

Lets say i go Water Orc.
and then go for somenthing like....1 level of spirit totem barbarian, a dip into orc paragon at some point and the rest of the build with figther (PHB) and Frienzed Berserker, following your feat selection. would that work?

Oh... Oh, don't go Frenzied Berserker. Don't be that guy.

There are so many great ways to make a Barbarian into a killing machine. Don't choose the one who says, "Oops, now I have to murder my party."

[(Un)Inspired]

Oh... Oh, don't go Frenzied Berserker. Don't be that guy.

There are so many great ways to make a Barbarian into a killing machine. Don't choose the one who says, "Oops, now I have to murder my party."

You don't have to worry about party- mutilation if you burn all your frienzy bs attacking trees while your party is still asleep each morning.

Then you're left with a power attack upgrade.

BTW op, you said your tyrannical GM veto'd your cleric; do you have any interest in playing the other side of a CoDzilla?

It's hard to beat a Druid when it comes to making a combat monster. In the same vein I'm surprised no one has suggested warshaper/ bear warrior pouncebarian.

[Mato]

Dragonborn is the typical means to benefit from a water orc's racial modifiers and swim speed without any penalties like light blindness. Plus you can get wings for a trifecta of mobility and it doubles damage while charging. The downside is it requires races of the dragon and you only get one free choice.

Barbarian is good for a single level dip for lion totem and after that take anything else. Fighter and monk are great classes for chargers thanks to their additional feats at low levels. But due to your enormous book restriction you will not be able to run a monk effectively, every useful acf and spell simply isn't in your list so the DM probably hates them anyway.

If you want to enter frenzy berserker you'll have to forgo whirling frenzy, it does not stack with any rage-like condition and this includes the berzerker's frenzy.


I'm currently finishing up my response to the previous thread; once I've figured out if it can kill the tarrasque in one round or not, I'll post it here.That's pretty easy really, the original poster already expressed he is willing to use frenzy berserker.
Fighter 6 / barbarian 1 / frenzy berserker 10
Power attack, cleave, improved bullrush, shock trooper, destructive rage, intimidating rage, leap attack.
strength 48(+19), 15 + 4 racial + 5 level + 4 inherent + 6 enhancement + 4 rage + 10 frenzy
bonus book: races of the dragon for dragonborn.A +5 dagger deals 2d4+188 and you have five attacks per round, so if you hit with them all you deal 890 after damage reduction. The suggestion has four open feats and three open class levels if you feel any part of it could not deliver as suggested (such as missing, even through the last attack hits on an 11 as is).

[Sneaky Hue]

You don't have to worry about party- mutilation if you burn all your frienzy bs attacking trees while your party is still asleep each morning.

Then you're left with a power attack upgrade.

BTW op, you said your tyrannical GM veto'd your cleric; do you have any interest in playing the other side of a CoDzilla?

It's hard to beat a Druid when it comes to making a combat monster. In the same vein I'm surprised no one has suggested warshaper/ bear warrior pouncebarian.

I'm not touching spellcasters on that table ever again. Spellcasters are limite to Core, Player's Guide to Faerun and up to ONE ''Complete series'' book.

[Sneaky Hue]

Dragonborn is the typical means to benefit from a water orc's racial modifiers and swim speed without any penalties like light blindness. Plus you can get wings for a trifecta of mobility and it doubles damage while charging. The downside is it requires races of the dragon and you only get one free choice.

Barbarian is good for a single level dip for lion totem and after that take anything else. Fighter and monk are great classes for chargers thanks to their additional feats at low levels. But due to your enormous book restriction you will not be able to run a monk effectively, every useful acf and spell simply isn't in your list so the DM probably hates them anyway.

If you want to enter frenzy berserker you'll have to forgo whirling frenzy, it does not stack with any rage-like condition and this includes the berzerker's frenzy.

That's pretty easy really, the original poster already expressed he is willing to use frenzy berserker.
Fighter 6 / barbarian 1 / frenzy berserker 10
Power attack, cleave, improved bullrush, shock trooper, destructive rage, intimidating rage, leap attack.
strength 48(+19), 15 + 4 racial + 5 level + 4 inherent + 6 enhancement + 4 rage + 10 frenzy
bonus book: races of the dragon for dragonborn.A +5 dagger deals 2d4+188 and you have five attacks per round, so if you hit with them all you deal 890 after damage reduction. The suggestion has four open feats and three open class levels if you feel any part of it could not deliver as suggested (such as missing, even through the last attack hits on an 11 as is).

The ideia is great but templates are a big no-no.

[Sneaky Hue]

Oh... Oh, don't go Frenzied Berserker. Don't be that guy.

There are so many great ways to make a Barbarian into a killing machine. Don't choose the one who says, "Oops, now I have to murder my party."

Oh, do not worry.
My group is smart enough to carry a Calm Emotions wand. Also, my GM is really kind in regards to smart RP out of the box thinking so, there are a bunch of shenanigans we can do to stop me from decaptating someone.

[Sneaky Hue]

Ok, let me see if i got this right.

If i go somenthing like...


Water Orc

Barbarian 1 ( Spirit Lion Totem)/ Orc Paragon 1/ Fighter 8/ Frenzied Berserker 10

Feats: Power attack, cleave, improved bullrush, shock trooper, destructive rage, intimidating rage, leap attack.


I'm good to go?

[Darkweave31]

What level of optimization are we talking about for the other characters? I see both a monk and a paladin in the party. Ubercharger is known for bringing the game to rocket-tag since you'll essentially one-shot anything if you build it right. You might end up being the "fun-stealing badass Orc with a Two Handed Weapon". If you aren't careful here you could far outclass the other melee focused characters in the party. That'll create problems for the DM balancing encounters and for the other players who may feel useless.

Out of curiosity (not that you NEED one) what kind of cleric build were you going for that was labeled OP in the face of a wizard character?

[Sneaky Hue]

What level of optimization are we talking about for the other characters? I see both a monk and a paladin in the party. Ubercharger is known for bringing the game to rocket-tag since you'll essentially one-shot anything if you build it right. You might end up being the "fun-stealing badass Orc with a Two Handed Weapon". If you aren't careful here you could far outclass the other melee focused characters in the party. That'll create problems for the DM balancing encounters and for the other players who may feel useless.

Out of curiosity (not that you NEED one) what kind of cleric build were you going for that was labeled OP in the face of a wizard character?


I'd say low op~to medium OP. They do not compare to forum guys but, they build smart within their limitations and the DM houserules a LOT of power ups and whatnot.

I know ubercharger may steal fun, but i will be careful. Problem is...unless i build bad on purpose, there is no way i won't steal the Monk's thunder.


I was going to play DMM:Persist Cleric, having acess only to Core, Faerun Guide and Complete Divine.

So, powerful? Yes, but no a god. I had acess only to PHB and Complete Divine and Spells and no acess whatsoever to Nightsticks.

[Darkweave31]

So I take it you are set on a damage dealing role rather than a support role?

Also, if mid-optimization is the norm for your group I'd suggest toning down your build a lot. Frenzied berserker is a very high optimization class that you frankly don't need unless the paladin and barbarian are also rolling uberchargers. Water Orc is kind of overkill, I'd suggest maybe half-orc, dwarf, or human. Essentially, if you just have leap attack and pounce, you're already doing more than enough damage for the level of optimization it sounds like your party brings. Choosing less powerful options to match your party's optimization isn't building badly, it's building for a team game.


If you want to play a cleric, you may do well to drop DMM: persist since that's probably where your DM's reservations were. It's famous for making the cleric into a killing machine that outclasses the fighter (though in practice I find it's a lot more nuanced than that). Focus more on making use of the Cleric's awesome spell list to support your team, especially the weaker members, rather than buffing yourself into a powerhouse.

Instead of DMM persist consider DMM reach spell, or divine ward to allow you to apply touch buffs at a distance. Or you could take DMM rapid spell and become a summoner to help create meat shields for your party to hide behind or flank with. But again, only if YOU want to play a cleric and fill that role.

The Cheater of Mystra

Use the Magical training feat as a cleric to qualify for dweomerkeeper as a single classed cleric. Take the initiate of mystra feat to cast in antimagic/dead magic zones and get anyspell to cast spells from the wizard list.

I wouldn't recommend you do this unless you're really focused on using it to support your teammates.

[Sneaky Hue]

So I take it you are set on a damage dealing role rather than a support role?

Also, if mid-optimization is the norm for your group I'd suggest toning down your build a lot. Frenzied berserker is a very high optimization class that you frankly don't need unless the paladin and barbarian are also rolling uberchargers. Water Orc is kind of overkill, I'd suggest maybe half-orc, dwarf, or human. Essentially, if you just have leap attack and pounce, you're already doing more than enough damage for the level of optimization it sounds like your party brings. Choosing less powerful options to match your party's optimization isn't building badly, it's building for a team game.


If you want to play a cleric, you may do well to drop DMM: persist since that's probably where your DM's reservations were. It's famous for making the cleric into a killing machine that outclasses the fighter (though in practice I find it's a lot more nuanced than that). Focus more on making use of the Cleric's awesome spell list to support your team, especially the weaker members, rather than buffing yourself into a powerhouse.

Instead of DMM persist consider DMM reach spell, or divine ward to allow you to apply touch buffs at a distance. Or you could take DMM rapid spell and become a summoner to help create meat shields for your party to hide behind or flank with. But again, only if YOU want to play a cleric and fill that role.

The Cheater of Mystra

Use the Magical training feat as a cleric to qualify for dweomerkeeper as a single classed cleric. Take the initiate of mystra feat to cast in antimagic/dead magic zones and get anyspell to cast spells from the wizard list.

I wouldn't recommend you do this unless you're really focused on using it to support your teammates.

Cleric is out of the question.
I have a bad taste in my mouth about it. I worked around his books limitations and still got the end of the stick.


EDIT: Also, the Paladin is probably not playing after all. So we got myself, the other Barbarian ( who is still on the fence about going Bard ) and the Monk.

[AvatarVecna]

Problem is...unless i build bad on purpose, there is no way i won't steal the Monk's thunder.

Firstly, your build looks fine as is. It's pretty basic, and it's not totally optimized, but it's fine.

As for overshadowing the monk, let me tell you about my first campaign. There were only three characters: a healing and wild-shape focused druid, a paladin optimizing for Mounted Combat, and my elf monk. The paladin got far more opportunities to ride his mount into battle than he had any right to, and my monk was still the OP character of the group.

Combine some stellar stat rolls (14/19/14/13/16/5 at 1st level) with scouting skills, bow proficiency, and a few AC boosting items, and my monk could kick butt at melee or ranged and was virtually untouchable. The druid was asking me to tone it down. Years later, I come to these boards, and I find out how laughably unoptimized monks are, and all I can remember is how awesome it was playing a straight monk/tattooed monk. Anything can be decently optimized, especially in a low-mid op group, even a monk. The fact that you're bringing an ubercharger to the table just means that the monk has to work a bit harder at something else to be relevant, or else cover the weaknesses of your build.

Don't think there's any? For starters, between raging, frenzying, and Shock Trooper, I wouldn't be surprised if your AC was getting into single digits. Sure, you've got tons of HP, and you do tons of damage, but you generally do more if you can bull rush someone into something, which is a situational occurrence unless the party mage is overly fond of both you and BFC spells. This build will happily charge towards the BBEG without fear of reprisal; what it has to be worried about is charging into the small group of properly leveled enforcers; sure, you might take down one or two within reach, but you won't take them all down, and they'll rip you to shreds on their turn. The monk isn't just someone to target the mooks you can't take down in your big charge; it's also an additional target for the mooks that are still alive when it's there turn to attack. As long as the monk is decent at DPR, they'll still be relevant.

Also, my dad played a game a few years ago with a friend who played a frenzied berserker. He found out that Grease is a great way to keep them from going after the enemy: a frenzied berserker can't even attempt Dex-based skills (like Balance), and so automatically fails the Balance check to get up. Cast grease, and they'll be stuck until their frenzy wears off. There's also some low-level whirlwind spell that accomplishes something similar, but Grease is good enough. Calm Emotions works, too, but a wand of Grease has utility beyond containing the frenzied berserker, whereas a wand of Calm Emotions might have no other purpose. That might be an upside, if you're worried about running out of charges, but that's a corner case.

Anyway, I hope that anything I've said here might be helpful. Have fun!

[Sneaky Hue]

Firstly, your build looks fine as is. It's pretty basic, and it's not totally optimized, but it's fine.

As for overshadowing the monk, let me tell you about my first campaign. There were only three characters: a healing and wild-shape focused druid, a paladin optimizing for Mounted Combat, and my elf monk. The paladin got far more opportunities to ride his mount into battle than he had any right to, and my monk was still the OP character of the group.

Combine some stellar stat rolls (14/19/14/13/16/5 at 1st level) with scouting skills, bow proficiency, and a few AC boosting items, and my monk could kick butt at melee or ranged and was virtually untouchable. The druid was asking me to tone it down. Years later, I come to these boards, and I find out how laughably unoptimized monks are, and all I can remember is how awesome it was playing a straight monk/tattooed monk. Anything can be decently optimized, especially in a low-mid op group, even a monk. The fact that you're bringing an ubercharger to the table just means that the monk has to work a bit harder at something else to be relevant, or else cover the weaknesses of your build.

Don't think there's any? For starters, between raging, frenzying, and Shock Trooper, I wouldn't be surprised if your AC was getting into single digits. Sure, you've got tons of HP, and you do tons of damage, but you generally do more if you can bull rush someone into something, which is a situational occurrence unless the party mage is overly fond of both you and BFC spells. This build will happily charge towards the BBEG without fear of reprisal; what it has to be worried about is charging into the small group of properly leveled enforcers; sure, you might take down one or two within reach, but you won't take them all down, and they'll rip you to shreds on their turn. The monk isn't just someone to target the mooks you can't take down in your big charge; it's also an additional target for the mooks that are still alive when it's there turn to attack. As long as the monk is decent at DPR, they'll still be relevant.

Also, my dad played a game a few years ago with a friend who played a frenzied berserker. He found out that Grease is a great way to keep them from going after the enemy: a frenzied berserker can't even attempt Dex-based skills (like Balance), and so automatically fails the Balance check to get up. Cast grease, and they'll be stuck until their frenzy wears off. There's also some low-level whirlwind spell that accomplishes something similar, but Grease is good enough. Calm Emotions works, too, but a wand of Grease has utility beyond containing the frenzied berserker, whereas a wand of Calm Emotions might have no other purpose. That might be an upside, if you're worried about running out of charges, but that's a corner case.

Anyway, I hope that anything I've said here might be helpful. Have fun!

Good but not optimal? Ok, seems like my best option then.
About the Monk, it is not exactly about the Class, more about the player. He can't optimize by himself but refuses to be helped.

Lemme ask you somenthing btw, what level do you think i should make the dip into Orc Paragon?

EDIT: Btw, about the amor, what would be the optimal option? I mean, i could use Full Plate, but Leap Attack requires a jump check right?

[Mato]

When you use shock trooper your ac will plummet to start with. Defensive uberchargers are a monk thing anyway.

[Sneaky Hue]

When you use shock trooper your ac will plummet to start with. Defensive uberchargers are a monk thing anyway.

But the reduction in AC is only during that round, right?

[AvatarVecna]

But the reduction in AC is only during that round, right?

Yes, but it's generally a pretty big penalty, especially in the higher levels. Again, it's not a problem if you charge the one big super-tough guy, it's a problem if you charge into a group of reasonably tough guys; you'll take out maybe three at most, and the rest will have an easy time tearing you to shreds.

[Sneaky Hue]

Yes, but it's generally a pretty big penalty, especially in the higher levels. Again, it's not a problem if you charge the one big super-tough guy, it's a problem if you charge into a group of reasonably tough guys; you'll take out maybe three at most, and the rest will have an easy time tearing you to shreds.

Just to be clear.

Scenario 1: I charge de BBEG, droping my AC for bonus damage. I hit him, he is still alive, my turn ends. It's his turn now, is my AC still penalized?

Scenario 2: I charge a bunch of bad guys, droping my AC for bonus damage. Some of the guys AoO me, striking with my AC penalized. My turn ends, it is their turns, to they still hit my AC penalized?

[Andezzar]

But the reduction in AC is only during that round, right?Until the beginning of your next turn. So anyone gets a swing at you.

As for the AoOs in Scenario 2, you only have to declare your power attack penalty before you make an attack, you do not have to declare it before the movement of the charge. So most if not all AoOs will be against your normal AC (-2 from the charge)

[Sneaky Hue]

Until the beginning of your next turn. So anyone gets a swing at you.

As for the AoOs in Scenario 2, you only have to declare your power attack penalty before you make an attack, you do not have to declare it before the movement of the charge. So most if not all AoOs will be against your normal AC (-2 from the charge)

Ok, thanks.
Except for the armor question, i got all covered now, so i'm good to go.
Thank you all for all the help.

[AvatarVecna]

Just to be clear.

Scenario 1: I charge de BBEG, droping my AC for bonus damage. I hit him, he is still alive, my turn ends. It's his turn now, is my AC still penalized?

Scenario 2: I charge a bunch of bad guys, droping my AC for bonus damage. Some of the guys AoO me, striking with my AC penalized. My turn ends, it is their turns, to they still hit my AC penalized?

The penalty of PA continues until your next turn; this means that, under the normal rules, the attack penalty would affect any AoOs you take. So yes, the AC penalty continues until the start of your next turn. It's the weakness of the ubercharger: even if you have a ton of HP, your AC is going to totally suck. The only upside is that the penalty doesn't get increased by the damage increasers you have, so that's a bright side.

[Andezzar]

The penalty of PA continues until your next turn; this means that, under the normal rules, the attack penalty would affect any AoOs you take. So yes, the AC penalty continues until the start of your next turn. It's the weakness of the ubercharger: even if you have a ton of HP, your AC is going to totally suck. The only upside is that the penalty doesn't get increased by the damage increasers you have, so that's a bright side.Generally the Ubercharger can only provoke AoOs on his turn because the provocation can only come from his movement (moving out of a threatened square) or actions (performing a distracting act). As I said before the Power Attack penalty need not be declared before the movement, so any AoOs provoked from it will be against his normal AC. The attacks of a charge are not distracting acts so they (normally) do not provoke AoOs. So the only way AoOs could be against his reduced AC is if he performed a distracting swift or immediate action after the charge but before his next turn.
Nevermind, reading failure on my part.

Against the AC penalty, get miss chances ASAP.

[Oddman80]

Since the Charge is a Full Round Action, it does not separate the movement from the attack. The movement is part of the attack. And, as the Shock Trooper maneuver is called Heedless Charge - your penalty to AC comes when you begin the charge. Therefore - if you take any attacks of opportunity during the charge (do to movement through threatened squares) the melee attacks against you will be against your reduced AC.

Your AC will continue to be at the lowered level all the way until the next round, when your turn begins again. So any enemies that attack after your turn, but before your next turn, will all be attacking your lowered AC.

Here is something to remember- you don't always need to take the full BAB penalty. Just like with power attack alon - you can choose the amount of penalty you take, up to your BAB. IF you are combining Shock Trooper, a Valorous Greatsword, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, the Rhino Rush Spell... unless you are actually trying to one shot the BBEG, you probably don't need to take the full BAB penalty from Power Attack. at level 10, with only 20 STR, you can go Power Attack 5 (instead of 10), and you will still do on average 144 points of damage per swing. and you will have 3 swings that round, with the lowest still being at a +8 to hit.
True - if you go full BAB penalty, you would be doing 224 points of damage per swing... but is it necessary?

At level 20, without Frenzied Berserker, you can still do 392 points of damage per swing on a charge... and you will have 5 swings... So what is Frenzied Berserker giving you? Your max is now 564 points of damage per swing... again - what are you facing that that is even necessary?

Toning down the straight insane damage, and working on things that help keep you from getting turned on your comrades (mind affecting effects), help you control a battle field so others in your party can better fight (Wolf Totem Barbarian's Improved Trip/Knockdown Feat combined with Combat Reflexes and Inhuman Reach), Things that keep you from getting slaughtered while your AC is so low (Steadfast boots to keep people form charging you, a single level Dip in Cleric for Travel Devotion and Animal Devotion - now you can get an extra move per turn for 1 minute - get the hell out of danger until your next turn... oh, and now you can fly too)

My point is - there is a point where the fact that you can do more damage becomes irrelevant - and a potential hindrance to your own survival.

[Sneaky Hue]

Since the Charge is a Full Round Action, it does not separate the movement from the attack. The movement is part of the attack. And, as the Shock Trooper maneuver is called Heedless Charge - your penalty to AC comes when you begin the charge. Therefore - if you take any attacks of opportunity during the charge (do to movement through threatened squares) the melee attacks against you will be against your reduced AC.

Your AC will continue to be at the lowered level all the way until the next round, when your turn begins again. So any enemies that attack after your turn, but before your next turn, will all be attacking your lowered AC.

Here is something to remember- you don't always need to take the full BAB penalty. Just like with power attack alon - you can choose the amount of penalty you take, up to your BAB. IF you are combining Shock Trooper, a Valorous Greatsword, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, the Rhino Rush Spell... unless you are actually trying to one shot the BBEG, you probably don't need to take the full BAB penalty from Power Attack. at level 10, with only 20 STR, you can go Power Attack 5 (instead of 10), and you will still do on average 144 points of damage per swing. and you will have 3 swings that round, with the lowest still being at a +8 to hit.
True - if you go full BAB penalty, you would be doing 224 points of damage per swing... but is it necessary?

At level 20, without Frenzied Berserker, you can still do 392 points of damage per swing on a charge... and you will have 5 swings... So what is Frenzied Berserker giving you? Your max is now 564 points of damage per swing... again - what are you facing that that is even necessary?

Toning down the straight insane damage, and working on things that help keep you from getting turned on your comrades (mind affecting effects), help you control a battle field so others in your party can better fight (Wolf Totem Barbarian's Improved Trip/Knockdown Feat combined with Combat Reflexes and Inhuman Reach), Things that keep you from getting slaughtered while your AC is so low (Steadfast boots to keep people form charging you, a single level Dip in Cleric for Travel Devotion and Animal Devotion - now you can get an extra move per turn for 1 minute - get the hell out of danger until your next turn... oh, and now you can fly too)

My point is - there is a point where the fact that you can do more damage becomes irrelevant - and a potential hindrance to your own survival.

Thank you for the input.
I know there are better and less risky options then Frenzied Berserker but, the problem lies in my book limitation. Is there any other PrC i should consider? Maybe i'm overlooking something.

[Darrin]

I don't quite see why there's so much teeth-gnashing over Light Sensitivity. Sundark goggles from Races of the Dragon eliminate the daze penalty for only 10 GP. But dedicating one of your sourcebook picks just to pick up a 10 GP item is a bit silly. Another method to get rid of Light Sensitivity, same book: Dragonborn of Bahumat.

Something else to consider... you can get another damage multiplier with Headlong Rush from Races of Faerun. EWP: Longaxe (Complete Adventurer) gives you a reach weapon whenever you Power Attack for 3 points or more. Consider:

Race: Half-Orc or Orc
1) Fighter 1. Feat: EWP Longaxe*. Bonus: Power Attack.
2) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce, Rage -> Whirling Frenzy.
3) Barbarian 2. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
4) Fighter 2. Bonus: Headlong Rush
5) Fighter 3.
6) Fighter 4. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper
* = If you're ok with a guisarme, you could put Cleave or Travel Devotion here instead.

At level 6, your Power Attack multiplier with the Leap Attack errata is equivalent to x6 (x2 from PA + x2 from Headlong Rush = x3, +100% from Leap Attack = x6). If you can get Champions of Valor as well, you can try adding a Valorous weapon for x8.


Thank you for the input.
I know there are better and less risky options then Frenzied Berserker but, the problem lies in my book limitation. Is there any other PrC i should consider? Maybe i'm overlooking something.

Hmmm... Completes-wise... hmm. Not really seeing much, other than a splash of Exotic Weapon Master or Orc Paragon. I'd probably stick with Fighter and finish out the Melee Weapon Mastery line. Barb 2/Fighter 18 can grab Weapon Supremacy as a capstone.

[Andezzar]

Since the Charge is a Full Round Action, it does not separate the movement from the attack. The movement is part of the attack. And, as the Shock Trooper maneuver is called Heedless Charge - your penalty to AC comes when you begin the charge. Therefore - if you take any attacks of opportunity during the charge (do to movement through threatened squares) the melee attacks against you will be against your reduced AC.I disagree. While a charge is a single Full-Round Action neither Power Attack nor Shock Trooper says that the penalty must be declared before the Full round Action

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.If you declare it after the movement of the charge and before the attacks you satisfy the conditions "on your action" and "before you make attack rolls".


Heedless Charge: To use this maneuver, you must charge and make the attack at the end of the charge using your Power Attack feat. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. In addition to normal charge modifiers (which give you a -2 penalty to AC and a +2 bonus on the attack roll), you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your Armor Class instead, up to a maximum equal to your base attack bonus.This does not change anything about the timing of the declaration.

[Oddman80]

Maybe it RAI and not RAW, but I just figured as the name of the move is Heedless Charge, that you are in fact charging heedlessly. That is as you are charging, you are not caring much of about your own protection all for the purpose of making a big powerful attack. Its how I would rule as a DM.

To me it makes sense - if the entire time you are running at the target, you are at your full defenses... that just doesn't seem heedless..

Anyway - I forgot that inhuman reach was from Lords of Madness - in that case just going spiked chain and enlarge person should be sufficient for the same effect...

Forgot Knockdown was also not in the Completes series...

make sure to pick up the Twisted Charge skill trick - lets you make a 90 degree turn once per encounter on a charge.

[AvatarVecna]

@Andezzar

An interesting argument--and one I'd like to see continue--but I'm afraid it won't fly here: we're not dealing with a DM who turns a blind eye to anything RAW legal, as most optimization assumes; we're dealing with a human being who, from the looks of it, is putting a good bit of effort into keeping their players from being too overpowered. They might be able to let the ubercharger in as is, since it's only optimized for damage and jump checks, but they won't let something like that fly: they're going to want a way to make use of that AC penalty, and they won't look for ways for the player to avoid such things if they can help it.

[Ferronach]

Runescarred Berserker (unapprochable east?)
Champion of Gwynharwyf (Champion of Gwynharwyf) - may be a no-no due to minor casting ability
Frostrager (Frostburn)

I know these are all "extra" books for you but you may want to take a look :)