Would/Should a Were-Golem lose the ability to speak in Hybrid/Monster form?

[unseenmage]

Just like the thread says, would an Elf were-Iron Golem lose the ability to speak when in hybrid or monster form?
(Used the Monstrous Lycanthrope template from Advanced Bestiary page179 for those curious how this is done.)

[Brookshw]

Don't they both have to be living creatures :smallconfused:

Either way, fun concept. I'd vote they keep the ability but gain a monotone.

[Phelix-Mu]

So I am unfamiliar with the source, but there are generally two ways to approach a were-w/e transformation.

1.) Highly magical curse/not even: Magic covers the weird bits about how and why various anatomy partially, and then fully, morphs into other anatomy. It may still be painful, but much of the pain is as much from the psychic trauma as from the physical change if this is the case (and sometimes it's not even painful...like elven lythari).

2.) Low-magic, with emphasis on CURSE: In this version, the pain is excruciating, and the magic does almost none of the work. Without the supernatural fortitude and healing/DR granted by the curse, the transformation would likely prove fatal, as bones are stretched, muscles torn and healed again and again, and entirely new organs appear as old ones disappear. This version is much more common in stuff like Underworld, White Wolf, and certain pulp fantasy that emphasizes gritty aspects of the world.

So, with option two, the reason for not being able to speak would be fairly obvious: if the golem can't speak, then the curse is probably not creating or retaining speech organs. If the golem can speak, then full golem uses golem vocalization mechanism, but the hybrid is likely a tormented blend of larynx and w/e bellows the golem uses to project soundwaves, and so speech would be tortured, if possible at all.

Option one has enough magic to fluff either way, but keep in mind that many sources of inspiration for D&D lycanthropy involve loss of speech anyway, so retaining it would be a bit unusual.

Part of the matter is also psychological; some lycanthropy fluff involves highly augmented mental states, as the person becomes beast. Since beasts can't talk, the person also loses this capacity as they devolve into an instinct-driven thing of nightmare. Other versions are more tame, but the crux of the matter is how the elf in question is internalizing the nature of the golem into his/her psyche as the transformation goes down.

Also the nature of the transformation and the nature of the golem-fluff used, as above.

So that was just a bunch of spitballing, in hopes of inspiring some kind of rationale. I don't think RAW has much to say on the matter, unless it specifically says speech is lost (or the final has no speech, in which case it clearly disappears at some point).

[Coidzor]

I can't say as to woulds, but as far as shoulds go, I don't see any real reason for the Hybrid to lose the ability to speak, unless one is going through and taking that ability away from all Hybrids, unless it's a Were-X, where X can speak themselves, like a Were-Shifter or Were-Darfellan or Were-Quasilycanthrope-Shifter something.

I can see people going either way with the Golem form not being able to speak if golems of that kind are unable to speak, though, again, I'd say it's whatever they went with for any were-X creature that has a full-X form where the X creature can't speak itself would be what to do for the were-golem. So if were-wolves can talk while wolves, then so should were-golems while golems.

[unseenmage]

Don't they both have to be living creatures :smallconfused:

Either way, fun concept. I'd vote they keep the ability but gain a monotone.
There's a sidebar that allows for more creative uses and I'm the GM so it's all good. :smalltongue:


So I am unfamiliar with the source, but there are generally two ways to approach a were-w/e transformation.

1.) Highly magical curse/not even: Magic covers the weird bits about how and why various anatomy partially, and then fully, morphs into other anatomy. It may still be painful, but much of the pain is as much from the psychic trauma as from the physical change if this is the case (and sometimes it's not even painful...like elven lythari).

2.) Low-magic, with emphasis on CURSE: In this version, the pain is excruciating, and the magic does almost none of the work. Without the supernatural fortitude and healing/DR granted by the curse, the transformation would likely prove fatal, as bones are stretched, muscles torn and healed again and again, and entirely new organs appear as old ones disappear. This version is much more common in stuff like Underworld, White Wolf, and certain pulp fantasy that emphasizes gritty aspects of the world.

So, with option two, the reason for not being able to speak would be fairly obvious: if the golem can't speak, then the curse is probably not creating or retaining speech organs. If the golem can speak, then full golem uses golem vocalization mechanism, but the hybrid is likely a tormented blend of larynx and w/e bellows the golem uses to project soundwaves, and so speech would be tortured, if possible at all.

Option one has enough magic to fluff either way, but keep in mind that many sources of inspiration for D&D lycanthropy involve loss of speech anyway, so retaining it would be a bit unusual.

Part of the matter is also psychological; some lycanthropy fluff involves highly augmented mental states, as the person becomes beast. Since beasts can't talk, the person also loses this capacity as they devolve into an instinct-driven thing of nightmare. Other versions are more tame, but the crux of the matter is how the elf in question is internalizing the nature of the golem into his/her psyche as the transformation goes down.

Also the nature of the transformation and the nature of the golem-fluff used, as above.

So that was just a bunch of spitballing, in hopes of inspiring some kind of rationale. I don't think RAW has much to say on the matter, unless it specifically says speech is lost (or the final has no speech, in which case it clearly disappears at some point).
Useful post is useful. Guess I need to determine if this guy is cursed or blessed. I'm leaning towards cursed. More Bruce Banner/Hulk than... Huh, can't really think of a happy cheerful blessing-esque analogue to the Hulk AtM.

And agreed on not being sure how D&D 3.x handles speaking in hybrid/monster form.


I can't say as to woulds, but as far as shoulds go, I don't see any real reason for the Hybrid to lose the ability to speak, unless one is going through and taking that ability away from all Hybrids, unless it's a Were-X, where X can speak themselves, like a Were-Shifter or Were-Darfellan or Were-Quasilycanthrope-Shifter something.

I can see people going either way with the Golem form not being able to speak if golems of that kind are unable to speak, though, again, I'd say it's whatever they went with for any were-X creature that has a full-X form where the X creature can't speak itself would be what to do for the were-golem. So if were-wolves can talk while wolves, then so should were-golems while golems.
Also useful. I had forgotten that hybrids can speak but monster-form couldn't. Been a long time since I played a were character.

[Phelix-Mu]

There's a sidebar that allows for more creative uses and I'm the GM so it's all good. :smalltongue:


Useful post is useful. Guess I need to determine if this guy is cursed or blessed. I'm leaning towards cursed. More Bruce Banner/Hulk than... Huh, can't really think of a happy cheerful blessing-esque analogue to the Hulk AtM.

And agreed on not being sure how D&D 3.x handles speaking in hybrid/monster form.

It's Thor, but no one notices the brooding downside next to the soul-crushing hunkiness.:smallamused:

[unseenmage]

It's Thor, but no one notices the brooding downside next to the soul-crushing hunkiness.:smallamused:

Ah yeah, there we go. Lion-O and He-Man both had get-bigger-when-its-plot-relevant superpowers too.
Heck even Mumraa and Skeletor could hulk out when they needed to.

None of the above is quite as rage monster as the big green guy though. Maybe just the stock D&D Barbarian? Get madder and stronger but also stay sane and cognizant too.

[Coidzor]

Useful post is useful. Guess I need to determine if this guy is cursed or blessed. I'm leaning towards cursed. More Bruce Banner/Hulk than... Huh, can't really think of a happy cheerful blessing-esque analogue to the Hulk AtM.

Also useful. I had forgotten that hybrids can speak but monster-form couldn't. Been a long time since I played a were character.

Ben 10?

Now I want to play as a person cursed to turn into another person who can kinda make themselves look like an animal a bit, sometimes. Or a Were-Doppelganger, as some kind of intermediate step to changelings.

[unseenmage]

Ben 10?

Now I want to play as a person cursed to turn into another person who can kinda make themselves look like an animal a bit, sometimes. Or a Were-Doppelganger, as some kind of intermediate step to changelings.
Oooo! Good one.

And that character idea sounds sweet. Could be cool too. Question is would it be a throwback to a previous step in that species evolution or a step forward for some more modern species?


Last lycanthrope I put together was a Warforged Scout were-Winged Warforged. A porcelain coated doll who was a prototype for the original warforged designs. She became an artificer and tried tinkering with her own structure experimentally and unlocked the mystical blueprint of the "war" part of a warforged. Her dedicated wright's hammer became a Weapon of Legacy in that moment too as it was that hammer that struck the 'nerve' so to speak.

Now every time she transforms she gains a size category, sprouts wings, and all of her porcelain "skin" shatters away. It's horrific to her, even though the wings make the whole thing more angelic than curse.


Problem was, she could obviously speak in all of her forms so I wasn't sure which way to turn when I came back to the were-Iron Golem idea.

[Phelix-Mu]

Last lycanthrope I put together was a Warforged Scout were-Winged Warforged. A porcelain coated doll who was a prototype for the original warforged designs. She became an artificer and tried tinkering with her own structure experimentally and unlocked the mystical blueprint of the "war" part of a warforged. Her dedicated wright's hammer became a Weapon of Legacy in that moment too as it was that hammer that struck the 'nerve' so to speak.


Wait, wait. Am I hallucinating, or is there a Suigintou reference in there? Have you seen Rozen Maiden? This sounds almost just like one of the villains (cept for the full transformation bit). Not to impune your originality, cause coincidences do happen, but it's a damn cool concept either way.

Rozen Maiden was a kitschy anime, but had some nice drama and some incredibly pretty fights (magic dolls= creepy+awesome)

Also, while we're getting into the psychobabble underlying the nature of people-machines and those that straddle the difference between the two, watch the second Ghost in the Shell movie, Innocence. Had some very profound insight into the nature of dolls and humans, along with a level of pretty optics that practically made my eyes bleed.

[Fax Celestis]

Balance-wise, it's to interfere with your ability to spellcast in hybrid form.

[unseenmage]

Wait, wait. Am I hallucinating, or is there a Suigintou reference in there? Have you seen Rozen Maiden? This sounds almost just like one of the villains (cept for the full transformation bit). Not to impune your originality, cause coincidences do happen, but it's a damn cool concept either way.

Rozen Maiden was a kitschy anime, but had some nice drama and some incredibly pretty fights (magic dolls= creepy+awesome)
Nope, never seen it. Though from what I'm reading I would enjoy it.
Idea was inspired by a pic I stumbled across (http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/32/5c/da/325cdaf1465526d5ad523603829d83d3.jpg) on the interwebs.


Also, while we're getting into the psychobabble underlying the nature of people-machines and those that straddle the difference between the two, watch the second Ghost in the Shell movie, Innocence. Had some very profound insight into the nature of dolls and humans, along with a level of pretty optics that practically made my eyes bleed.
I have seen that one. Took me a minute or two to remember but yeah, I enjoyed it enough.

[Jack_Simth]

Just like the thread says, would an Elf were-Iron Golem lose the ability to speak when in hybrid or monster form?
(Used the Monstrous Lycanthrope template from Advanced Bestiary page179 for those curious how this is done.)
And... the publisher has it on the web (http://greenronin.com/2014/10/monster_week_monstrous_lycanth.php).

So... from Page 3 of their published PDF:

Languages: In all forms,
the monstrous lycanthrope
can speak the languages
of the base creature
and base monster.
If the base
creature or base
monster has a
supernatural or
spell-like mode of
communication, such
as telepathy, it gains that
mode of communication in all
forms. If the base monster cannot
speak, the monstrous lycanthrope
cannot speak in monster form.
(copy paste errors are fun! Emphasis added)

So: An Elf: Can speak. So base form: Yes. Hybrid form: Yes. For Monstrous FOrm, we'll need to check the monster - the Iron Golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-iron)"
An iron golem has a humanoid body made from iron. It can be sculpted into any shape its creator desires, but it almost always displays armor of some sort, from simple and utilitarian to ceremonial and ornate. Its features are much smoother than those of a stone golem. Iron golems sometimes carry a weapon in one hand, though they rarely use these, relying instead on their slam attacks.

An iron golem is 12 feet tall and weighs about 5,000 pounds. An iron golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise, nor does it have any distinguishable odor.

Although the practice has fallen out of favor in modern times, the ancients of certain powerful civilizations once took great pride in crafting iron golems of tremendous size and strength. These golems, which are never smaller than Huge, still exist in remote parts of the world, mindlessly following the orders of a long-dead empire.(Emphasis added)

So:
Base Form: Yes (due to elf).
Hybrid Form: Yes (due to elf).
Monster Form: No (due to Iron Golem).

[unseenmage]

And... the publisher has it on the web (http://greenronin.com/2014/10/monster_week_monstrous_lycanth.php).
Excellent find! Will definitely be using this more often now that I know prospective DMs and players don't have to have the physical book to use it.
Thanks you!


So... from Page 3 of their published PDF:
(copy paste errors are fun! Emphasis added)

So: An Elf: Can speak. So base form: Yes. Hybrid form: Yes. For Monstrous FOrm, we'll need to check the monster - the Iron Golem (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-iron)"(Emphasis added)

So:
Base Form: Yes (due to elf).
Hybrid Form: Yes (due to elf).
Monster Form: No (due to Iron Golem).

And thanks for this. Not sure how I missed it. Though in my defense it is a rather... involved template. Your assistance is appreciated.