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View Full Version : Help! My character was caught with illicit wares.



Kane0
2014-11-04, 06:15 PM
Alright, so my character may have been caught selling a cursed item to a vendor in a major city, and might have been arrested for it. Now i know i'm not a legal expert in or out of character, but most crimes in this place end up with the accused conscripted for the ongoing war thats going on and i'd rather avoid that.

Is there any advice people can offer me? I didnt know the item was cursed, i thought it was a perfecty legit normal magical robe.
If it matters we are a party of level 4 characters in a pathfinder game. I'm a sorcerer, we have an enchantress, a rogue, a barbarian, a ranger, an alchemist and a ten year old boy.

We have a working association with a leader in town and are working for him setting up a new province nearby but honestly that doesnt seem like that much leverage in this kind of situation.

Thanks in advance for any help and suggestions!

BrokenChord
2014-11-04, 06:18 PM
Alright, so my character may have been caught selling a cursed item to a vendor in a major city, and might have been arrested for it. Now i know i'm not a legal expert in or out of character, but most crimes in this place end up with the accused conscripted for the ongoing war thats going on and i'd rather avoid that.

Is there any advice people can offer me? I didnt know the item was cursed, i thought it was a perfecty legit normal magical robe.
If it matters we are a party of level 4 characters in a pathfinder game. I'm a sorcerer, we have an enchantress, a rogue, a barbarian, a ranger, an alchemist and a ten year old boy.

We have a working association with a leader in town and are working for him setting up a new province nearby but honestly that doesnt seem like that much leverage in this kind of situation.

Thanks in advance for any help and suggestions!

The only real reason I can think of to randomly spring something like that on you guys is to set up a plot sequence. Just let it play out.

Kane0
2014-11-04, 06:35 PM
We've already ruled that out. The dm forgot to enact the curse when it shouldve been triggered as i had been wearing it, and by chance this was his next (and last) opportunity to reveal that it was cursed.

Besides, allowing things to run its course means i need to mount some sort of legal defense, which i have no experience in doing :smalleek:

Angelmaker
2014-11-04, 06:45 PM
We've already ruled that out. The dm forgot to enact the curse when it shouldve been triggered as i had been wearing it, and by chance this was his next (and last) opportunity to reveal that it was cursed.

Besides, allowing things to run its course means i need to mount some sort of legal defense, which i have no experience in doing :smalleek:

In a magical world, the legal system might accept proof of innocence by willingly stepping into a circle of truth.

There is no way a mundane process and trial as we know it will bring conclusive proof of your innocence or malicious intent.

Offer to pay for a break curse spell and buy the cursed item back. This should show your good will and prevent you from being drafted to the national wargames team.

Ask a cleric or paladin of a justice/law good to come to your help. Its their effing job to go to trials and make sure they run smooth and with due process.

Tons of possibilites just off the top of my head.

Sith_Happens
2014-11-04, 07:49 PM
1. Go on trial.
2. Get sentenced to soldierdom.
3. Desert.

nedz
2014-11-04, 08:07 PM
It's against forum rules to give legal advice.

Seriously now, we need more information to go on — about the setting. It's a major city you say — this should help, unless the city is somewhat strange. Major cities tend to be lawful and have the resources to administer the law properly — but more information here would be helpful.

Honest Tiefling
2014-11-04, 08:26 PM
1. Go on trial.
2. Get sentenced to soldierdom.
3. Desert.

You forgot a step. Get the equipment, steal supplies, make sure it isn't magical, THEN desert.

Quick question, does this place even care about you not knowing it was cursed? If not, I suggest the above plan...And get revenge by tossing cursed items into the town left and right and see innocent people get carted off to be forced into the army. Especially sweet old ladies baking pies. And bonus points if you get any nobles caught up in it...

Vitruviansquid
2014-11-04, 08:26 PM
Besides, allowing things to run its course means i need to mount some sort of legal defense, which i have no experience in doing :smalleek:

1. Demand trial by combat.

2. If allowed, win your combat against the opponent. If denied, win your combat against the guards at the courtroom.

dps
2014-11-04, 09:24 PM
Seriously now, we need more information to go on — about the setting. It's a major city you say — this should help, unless the city is somewhat strange. Major cities tend to be lawful and have the resources to administer the law properly — but more information here would be helpful.

Yeah, from your post we don't even know if the legal system there uses trial by combat, trial by jury, trial by ordeal, etc.

If the legal system of the setting allow you to obtain legal counsel, hire the best lawyer in the city and do what he recommends.

Mastikator
2014-11-04, 09:59 PM
Make a backup character that doesn't commit fraud?

Kelb_Panthera
2014-11-05, 07:24 AM
Fake your death. Get a body, immolate it, write a suicide note and let them think you blasted yourself to oblivion to avoid conscription.

Nobot
2014-11-05, 07:32 AM
Get a barrister, explain the case to him, get bailed out, pay your barrister 4 million gold, wait for 3,000 years until the hearing. Your character will most likely be dead/retired or the campaign will have ended before your case is dealed with.

Drynwyn
2014-11-05, 09:21 AM
*If* the case is going to swing on your malicious intent or lack thereof, the town leader could be a useful character witness.

How large is this city, and what level are you? Is escape by force a viable option?

nedz
2014-11-05, 11:24 AM
Worst case

Disguise someone else to look like you
Pay them to take your place in the Army

Ideally you want to find someone who wanted to join the army but was rejected.

Alternatively

Disguise your feet to make them appear flat
Have the Army reject you upon conscription

Starshade
2014-11-05, 12:16 PM
I'd be thinking of getting a cleric or some priestly class of my PC's faith to cast some spell who proves your innocence for the jury under the trial, and simply offer to pay for breaking the curse, etc. Could be a bit of money, but...

Lord Torath
2014-11-05, 02:34 PM
Alright, so my character may have been caught selling a cursed item to a vendor in a major city, and might have been arrested for it. Now i know i'm not a legal expert in or out of character, but most crimes in this place end up with the accused conscripted for the ongoing war thats going on and i'd rather avoid that.

Is there any advice people can offer me? I didnt know the item was cursed, i thought it was a perfecty legit normal magical robe.
If it matters we are a party of level 4 characters in a pathfinder game. I'm a sorcerer, we have an enchantress, a rogue, a barbarian, a ranger, an alchemist and a ten year old boy.

We have a working association with a leader in town and are working for him setting up a new province nearby but honestly that doesnt seem like that much leverage in this kind of situation.

Thanks in advance for any help and suggestions!I'm assuming you want to be able to show your face in this city after the trial, yes? In that case, I favor the Circle of Truth/offer of Remove Curse/Restitution rout. Plead "No Contest." You made a sale in good faith, and it turned out to be a bad idea. Tell this to the court, and, as mentioned previously, get your local leader ally to vouch for your character. If your DM is not set on railroading you into the army, this should resolve the issue.

Kane0
2014-11-05, 04:04 PM
Thanks for the input guys!

Some additional messages from the dm:

Ok, so here's what your 17 on Know Loc revealed:

Brevoy is a CN land, full of turbulence and disruption. In this, the city Restov does it's best to bring order back to the region. Thus, while the laws are not necessarily evil, lawbreakers are known to be dealt with systematically and efficiently. You've seen this yourself - not even a lawbreaker, yet forced to either sign a charter and explore a dangerous wilderness or be sent to the Worldwound.

You know the law you broke, selling a cursed item, carries a severe sentence - likely sent to the Worldwound.

You also know that, even though you didn't know what the robe was, ignorantly selling a cursed item is also an offence - one bought in to stop people feigning ignorance as an excuse. I believe we have similar laws with counterfeit money, and stolen goods, though I don't know how well they're enforced. The punishment for this is lesser, but you will have to prove that you didn't know what the robe was.

Restov is well known to have a strong legal system, with good turnover. It's likely that you'll be in the hold for seven days before your turn in court.

You will have the choice to hire a lawyer or not. Restov can recommend some good ones.

And message 2:
There are many lawyers for hire, but a cleric would certainly be fine. He's Erastillian, but Jhod could also fill in.

Your knowledge local also reveals that the courts here do not use magic to discern truth, as it is not always infallible, and can lead to false convictions (can you imagine Radovan with that ability? Everybody to the Worldwound!).
Also, ZoT and other divination magic can be beaten in ways that make it seem like it's working fine...there are ways around it, etc. So the court relies on good ol' fashioned prosecutin'.

Lord Torath
2014-11-05, 05:20 PM
Hire the best NPC lawyer money can buy (spend a day or two finding out just who that is), tell said lawyer the full story, and follow their advice. This will probably involve pleading guilty to Ignorantly Selling a Cursed Item, and may involve you and your fellow party members called to the stand to testify.

One of your fellow party members might discretely make inquiries as to whether the judge has ever accepted a bribe for a lighter sentence. If yes, find out what the typical bribe size was, and offer a bribe just above the average. If no, avoid any and all mentions of bribes, bribery, and your friend "Goald Peace." The local Thieves' Guild might be useful here.

lytokk
2014-11-05, 05:22 PM
I'm of the opinion that the DM screwed up this one. He forgot to activate the curse on you once you put it on. Therefor, it isn't cursed. Plain and simple. I've forgotten more than a few times to play out a cursed item on a character, and once I realized it, they had been using the item for quite some time. Honestly, there shouldn't be a curse on the item.

Lord Torath
2014-11-05, 05:33 PM
I'm of the opinion that the DM screwed up this one. He forgot to activate the curse on you once you put it on. Therefor, it isn't cursed. Plain and simple. I've forgotten more than a few times to play out a cursed item on a character, and once I realized it, they had been using the item for quite some time. Honestly, there shouldn't be a curse on the item.Somehow I don't see saying this to the DM's face ending well. :smallamused: I completely agree with you, but the DM's already demonstrated his position on the item.

You said the DM forgot to activate the curse, and this was his last chance to show it is cursed. That sort of implies that it's important. Is this item part of a larger plot? Or is it just a random cursed item? What kind of curse are we talking about here? Were you present when the curse activated? How did you acquire this robe?

Metahuman1
2014-11-05, 06:21 PM
I'm of the opinion that the DM screwed up this one. He forgot to activate the curse on you once you put it on. Therefor, it isn't cursed. Plain and simple. I've forgotten more than a few times to play out a cursed item on a character, and once I realized it, they had been using the item for quite some time. Honestly, there shouldn't be a curse on the item.

I'd throw in for this actually. He blew it. He completely blew it, and what he's doing now is, quite frankly, not reasonable. If it was so important to give you the cursed robe in the first place, he should have just waited for another encounter and given it to the party as treasure then.

ClockShock
2014-11-05, 06:46 PM
"Well I've been wearing it for days and it wasn't cursed when I had it. The shopkeeper must have cursed it."

You obviously have several witnesses who can verify that you were using the robe without any curse being in effect.

Kane0
2014-11-05, 06:52 PM
Oh right, some more details:

This is a pathfinder game, we are going through the kingmaker books. I'm technically the magister but at this stage were still a village so its kind of a meaningless title for now.
Anyway, this is a robe of vermin disguise as a robe of bones that we found embedded with some other odds and ends in a blighted treant-like thing that we killed.

Also a remove curse isnt necessary simce thats only to remove a cursed item your wearing, not get rid of the curse.

The curse itself is a negative to initiative and d20 rolls, as well as a check required to cast spells. Oddly it still functions fine as a robe if bones otherwise. But even though it should have triggered (by rolling initiative) the dm forgot so i wore it without any issues.

nedz
2014-11-05, 07:01 PM
Get the prosecution to demonstrate that the item is cursed in court. None of the effects you have listed can be demonstrated easily, especially if magic is out of the picture.

Honest Tiefling
2014-11-05, 07:10 PM
Without magic, can they even determine that you did it? Its one dude's word against another in many cases.

Sith_Happens
2014-11-05, 07:42 PM
"Well I've been wearing it for days and it wasn't cursed when I had it. The shopkeeper must have cursed it."

This. If your DM is dropping a contrived consequence of finding a cursed item on you because he forgot to have the curse affect you, use the latter to counter the former.:smallamused:

Arbane
2014-11-06, 02:58 AM
Without magic, can they even determine that you did it? Its one dude's word against another in many cases.

Historically, that means whoever's better-connected wins.

Kane0
2014-11-06, 05:18 AM
Thanks for the help guys!

If I get my hands on a decent lawyer, get the prosecution to prove the curse is present and have testimony that such effects did not occur to me, then point a bit of a finger at the merchant (that wanted to rip me off like all good merchants) then that sounds like a pretty strong opening move. especially if i point out that the curse is far beyond my ability to create, or even stand a reasonable chance of detecting. Having Radovan or a bribe on my side would be helpful too, but thats a strong starting point as it is I reckon.

Anything else is appreciated, this is making my chances a lot better :smallsmile:

Metahuman1
2014-11-06, 04:39 PM
Remember to rub there noses in there no magic in the court room law. When you demand they prove it's cursed at all, tell them to do it conclusively and beyond a reasonable doubt with out braining in a caster or other magic item, since those things can readily be fooled, hence why they made it illegal to do so in the first place. That's gonna be important, else the prosecution will likely just take it to a mage, or say they took it to a mage, and got it checked.


And then make them visibly show it, or that it doesn't work as it should, in the court room in front of everyone, in real time right that moment. When they can't, cause they can't have anyone try to cast spells (Remind them of this.), and the other effect is a purely metagame construct, and otherwise the robe works as normal, then you should have them in something of a legal bind.

Mr.Moron
2014-11-06, 05:57 PM
Just do whatever it feels like your character would with the information, resources at their disposal in their immediate circumstances.

It might not be the optimal solution for getting out unscathed, but it'll probably be the most interesting one. Ultimately your character is one person in a bad spot because of a run of bad luck, it's their situation to sort out, not ours.

Honest Tiefling
2014-11-06, 06:02 PM
I for one, really want to know how this turns out.

Kane0
2014-11-06, 07:06 PM
Remember to rub there noses in there no magic in the court room law
I fully intend to. It will be mighty amusing to see them try to put on a trial revolving around a magic item without use of magic in it.


Just do whatever it feels like your character would with the information, resources at their disposal in their immediate circumstances.

Unfortunately I can't boast the equivalent of an 19 INT, nor do I have the experience of growing up in this city and dropping out of its magical academy. I'm hoping the forum's combined intellect will help even that out.


I for one, really want to know how this turns out.
As do I. We play again in 3 days, so i'll post the results up for everyone then.

Metahuman1
2014-11-06, 07:26 PM
I fully intend to. It will be mighty amusing to see them try to put on a trial revolving around a magic item without use of magic in it.


Unfortunately I can't boast the equivalent of an 19 INT, nor do I have the experience of growing up in this city and dropping out of its magical academy. I'm hoping the forum's combined intellect will help even that out.


As do I. We play again in 3 days, so i'll post the results up for everyone then.

Indeed. :smallamused:


That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do given that consideration.


I look forward to seeing those results. =)

Mr.Moron
2014-11-06, 07:34 PM
Unfortunately I can't boast the equivalent of an 19 INT.

:biggrin: I like this. You've grounded perspective and I can respect that. Still there's something of a charm in making a go of it, even the results are imperfect. Still, I can appreciate the approach of using a think-tank to simulate super-genius.

Kane0
2014-11-10, 06:58 AM
Hey guys!

Good news, things went really well!

I got support from Radovan as my defense on the case and my party was able to show up as witnesses and testimony. The prosecution had a hard time proving anything even before implying that i knew anything about the curse, and radovan pretty much finished it off with a subtle word to the judge, throwing him off enough to pretty much just drop the case.

So in the end i walk off scot-free (without the robe of course, its with the town to dispose of). I really owe radovan for his help, and we even managed to successfully defend my cellmate in her case (self defense from violent, abusing husband vs murder). She happily came with us back to our village.

Back at our village we have a naysayer bard roaming around stirring up trouble, but thats for next seasion to deal with.

Honest Tiefling
2014-11-10, 11:11 AM
Hire an even BETTER bard for a bard-off contest with the naysayer. Give him something extra (A good instrument, a dancing monkey, some magical effects, weasels down his pants) to stand out when he's just plying his trade to make the other guy seem boring afterwards.

Kane0
2014-11-11, 02:00 AM
We have a bard in the party, but unfortunately he doesnt show very often. If we have him next session a bard-off is definitey on the table

Failing that we have an enchantress to counteract his enthrallig and charming somewhat.

The_Werebear
2014-11-11, 10:36 AM
Hire an even BETTER bard for a bard-off contest with the naysayer. Give him something extra (A good instrument, a dancing monkey, some magical effects, weasels down his pants) to stand out when he's just plying his trade to make the other guy seem boring afterwards.

My next bard is going to have "Perform: I-have-fifteen-live-angry-weasels-in-my-pants Dance"

Kane0
2014-11-11, 05:17 PM
Much better than my apprentice, all he has is perform (chores)