So, FINALLY read Skin Game

[Avilan the Grey]

First reaction:

Top Notch book, as usual. VERY disappointed in the choice of victim at the end, though. Deidre was my favorite nicklehead. But then I usually prefer female characters.

Also, I know it will all come clear, I'm sure, but Little Ms Mantis' behavior... was too unexplained. Did she try to Stop Dresden? Did she just run a pretend operation with her estranged hubby? Did she try to protect her daughter from her hubby? But why then cooperate with him at the end?

Oh and Yay! Female!Bob! Sorta...!

Edit:
Nitpick: The selling of this book (by Jim and Penguin) with the words "Nicodemus is TERRIFIED of Harry"? Remember that? Never happens in the book. WTH?

Also, I guess two coins are actually out of circulation for real? They are now semi-permanent parts of Hades' weapon collection.

[Rater202]

Nicodemus has had centuries of practie in deception, so acting calm while he's terryfied isn't unreasonable.

Nicodemus was also ensured Harry's cooperation by Mab-If Harry tried anything before Nicky tried anything, Mab would kill Harry for breaking her word.

I also doubt that Harry's spirit daughter will be "Female Bob" if only because Harry is going to see her as a daughter, and spirits of intellect react the way their "Masters" expect them too.

she's also quite potentially much more powerful than Bob-A spirit of intellect grows more powerful as it aquires more knowledge, and the spirit hasthe sum knowledge and memories of a Fallen Angel millions of years old+Plus Harry's knowledge and perspectives, and she was nousihed by Harry's magic and his love for his freinds.

Leaving aside the "Lover" thing, which while probably high is unquantifiable, Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden is mostlikely the strongest Wizard of his generation and is somewhere in the top 20 strongest Wizards alive, and he was the Winter Knight for the last few years of her "gestation" so we can throw all kinds of Winter magic goodness into the mix-Anything nourished by his magic for that long has to be hella strong.

Personally, I'm disappointed that he didn't give her a name yet.

[Avilan the Grey]

The debate about the prisoner who "deserves to be there":
I... don't think it's Merlin, and frankly it would disappoint me if that was so. Of course it could be Modred... Seriously though I have no clue.

I must say I enjoyed the shoutouts during the Parkour! segment in the beginning. Though I honestly can say I only recognized Cthulhu. Were the other voices shoutouts and in that case to what? It did remind me of the storyteller heard by the main character from across a square in an old Fantasy book (from the 80ies) I don't remember the name of. That storyteller during the course of an evening started several stories, all with recognizable beginnings (Conan (the first story's first paragraph), LOTR, etc etc).

I also kind of hoped Grey would be Loki, although I know it wouldn't fit.

[The Glyphstone]

Until I get Jossed, I'm naming the new spirit Bobbie.

[Eldan]

Also, I guess two coins are actually out of circulation for real? They are now semi-permanent parts of Hades' weapon collection.

Not so sure on that. In fact, I'm pretty sure they'll come back. Two reasons:
-Someone, I'm not sure who, Nicodemus maybe, mentioned that it is the nature of all coins to be in circulation, which is why the Denarii specifically always come back.
-Hades himself says that he's storing these weapons until they are necessary.

Personally, I had so many theories about Grey. Among them: Skinwalker (hey, it's the title of the book, plus shapeshifter), Odin in disguise, Hades himself in disguise (What a tweest!), Loki (they asked Odin for him, plus shapeshifter) and others. Still not sure he's "just" a Skinwalker.

Oh, and for me, little Miss Intellect Spirit is called Athena.

[Avilan the Grey]

Not so sure on that. In fact, I'm pretty sure they'll come back. Two reasons:
-Someone, I'm not sure who, Nicodemus maybe, mentioned that it is the nature of all coins to be in circulation, which is why the Denarii specifically always come back.
-Hades himself says that he's storing these weapons until they are necessary.

Personally, I had so many theories about Grey. Among them: Skinwalker (hey, it's the title of the book, plus shapeshifter), Odin in disguise, Hades himself in disguise (What a tweest!), Loki (they asked Odin for him, plus shapeshifter) and others. Still not sure he's "just" a Skinwalker.

Oh, and for me, little Miss Intellect Spirit is called Athena.

Why Athena? I don't get the Greek vibe, at all. That name is completely out of left field for me.

Anyway, that was my exact point. They can be regarded as weapons (of sorts, yes they are also entities, but if the shroud can be classified as a weapon, then they are too), and will be "released" (aka allowed to be taken) by a Worthy person(s) (Worthy meaning someone that is worthy of the trials, not "Good"). They might be back next book, or they might not come back until the Trilogy (with the twist of Good People taking them, to be able to fight the End Of The World As We Know It. Just guessing, but...)

As for Grey, I had already decided that a Skinwalker was present early on (my guess was that Shagnasty was the one picking off the goats, before I knew it was Psycho!Bigfoot) and by the time of his big change, attacking in the Vault, it clicked for me (I am a little disappointed it didn't for Dresden at that point, but he is both very smart and very very thick). I am just disappointed he wasn't Loki, is all.

I am also a little surprised about Dresden's reaction to the cellphone. I guess, for him, it's a big deal, but he should already have known. Mab told him by the end of the last book, after all.

Btw I want to listen in on Mab and Molly. I want Molly to continue Mab's "education" about popular culture that her daughter started; I would love to see her reaction to Frozen, for one thing... As well as other movies and things like modern well written computer games etc.

[Eldan]

Why Athena? I don't get the Greek vibe, at all. That name is completely out of left field for me.

Because amongst other things, she's the Goddess of Intellect and she was born out of Zeus' head after he had a terrible headache.

[Avilan the Grey]

Because amongst other things, she's the Goddess of Intellect and she was born out of Zeus' head after he had a terrible headache.

Well that explains it. I only know the very basics. Never paid much attention to the Greek mythology, myself. Greece and Rome were never truly interesting to me (Rome so much less than Greece btw). Not really sure why.

[Rakaydos]

It may be the nature of coins to be in circulation, but it is in the nature of Vaults to hoard wealth. the two may cancel out.

[The Glyphstone]

I got the impression that Grey was half-Naagloshi, rather than being an actual full-blood skinwalker, because of how he talked about not choosing his father or choosing the legacy he was left with.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm sorry its been a few months and I'm not pulling the text out... but didn't Grey say his dad was a shagnasty?

I don't think there's a mystery there, or at least of that nature. The hanging thread was what he had going on with Maggie I back in the day.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm sorry its been a few months and I'm not pulling the text out... but didn't Grey say his dad was a shagnasty?

I don't think there's a mystery there, or at least of that nature. The hanging thread was what he had going on with Maggie I back in the day.

HE said he was.

Oh and it seems I was correct in my speculation after Cold Days. WOG says that yes indeed, Titania and Mab are identical twin sisters. My bet is that I was right about the second part too: They both took up their respective mantles at Lindisfarne (I think that's the place Mab mentions in Cold Days) at the same time.

Another thing, not really serious... If aspects of beings "creep into them", like Santa or Persephone, or Urd... What would happen if the aspect of Queen Elsa started being associated with Mab?

[Rakaydos]

Another thing, not really serious... If aspects of beings "creep into them", like Santa or Persephone, or Urd... What would happen if the aspect of Queen Elsa started being associated with Mab?

Hmm... Mab HAS been taking pop culture classes... it's a coin flip whether Mab or Molly will get to make that reference.

[Rater202]

There's no suc thing as "A" shagnasty.

Shagnasty was the nickname Harry assigned to the specific Naagaloshi he encountered in Turn Coat.

Wether that specific Skin-Walker was Gray's father is not said one way or an other.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Another thing, not really serious... If aspects of beings "creep into them", like Santa or Persephone, or Urd... What would happen if the aspect of Queen Elsa started being associated with Mab?

Much too small but if it marked a trend and IF Mab decided to play into that she would risk becoming the mask but ultimately in the Dresdenverse your basic identity is your own. Of course if she didn't she'd also limit how much she could draw power from that imagery. If you got enough dissonance in where that psychic energy is going she'd render herself less powerful outside of Faerie, as happened to all the old gods.

She herself doesn't have to change, but that can essentially make a smaller doorway into the mortal realm to exert her power through. That said the fae courts seem the most insulated from that sort of thing anyways.

In practice... well actually given the timing I'd say you might even have it backwards. Like Frozen is a small manifestation of the changing of the guard that happened before it in Winter land towards a less grim and crazy Lady.

Either way far more likely Molly gets a little bitty insignificant bit closer to Mab in power would be the practical result.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't think that's how it works; Odin didn't "choose" to become Kringle / Santa. Not really.
And Elsa has a much bigger impact across the globe than the late 19th century construction of Santa had at the beginning.

In fact, if you describe Mab ("Winter Queen etc") to a kid that isn't already clued in, I bet the image that pops into their head IS Elsa, name and all. Now, to get kids to imagine Titania as Anna might be a little more far fetched, but if you start with telling them she's the Sister... Maybe.
Now as I said I am not really entertaining this in a serious way, but on certain levels it would be absolutely HILARIOUS.

...Plus it might force the sisters to reconcile. I have a sad feeling that they were very close before taking up their mantles, as twins usually are.

Anyway, to the issue above. I know "Shagnasty" is that specific Skinwalker. But that wasn't what was asked, really. Grey admits to Dresden that he is part Skinwalker (his father was one) and that is the point of the question above.

Edit:
Free will. There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings about it around the web regarding the Dresdenverse. "Free Will" is a very important, but also highly abstract concept. It is NOT, as many on other forums have though a matter of being a robot. Mab can decide what she wants for dinner freely after all, in theory she can order a peperoni pizza and slum in front of Bachelor if she wants to for a night.
No, Free Will is about the capability to Change Yourself. Only humans can truly go against their nature. Mab can dress how she wants, eat what she wants, dance however she wants, sleep with whomever she wants. But she cannot stop being what the mantle says she is. Of course this also has to do with my speculation above; she might change, slowly, if the world wants her to change, but not all the way, and she might split herself, like Kringle / Odin. But it will not be her choice.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't think that's how it works; Odin didn't "choose" to become Kringle / Santa. Not really.
And Elsa has a much bigger impact across the globe than the late 19th century construction of Santa had at the beginning.

Since we explicitly don't have the tale its speculative... but I'd note that even as Santa he is still more Odin then a jolly bowl of jelly. And evidently most of the time he is Odin, which is not possible on "reality by popular vote" because well pop popular culture. Its obvious to me who is the still the core identity and who is the mask.

Contrast how Hades is still a totally swell dude (which by Greek God standards he was) despite only being mentioned these days as a badguy, where's his blue hair or such? And if not that how the Persephone story has that twist to erase the one jerkass thing he did, which is also not possible if its popularity in command. The 2500 years of that tale (their only starring feature) should have ruined their marriage.

Actually that's probably a succint demonstration of the limits. Belief can be a source of power, like making a 'fake' shroud still a powerful artifact... but it can't rewrite the reality, it can't ultimately change the truth. That's how we can still have our various twists and places where the myth is wrong.


In fact, if you describe Mab ("Winter Queen etc") to a kid that isn't already clued in, I bet the image that pops into their head IS Elsa, name and all. Now, to get kids to imagine Titania as Anna might be a little more far fetched, but if you start with telling them she's the Sister... Maybe.
Now as I said I am not really entertaining this in a serious way, but on certain levels it would be absolutely HILARIOUS.

And in 5 years Frozen may be old news that kids don't know about, culture is a fickle beast. Come talk to me in 10 years with a list of works showing shifts in the winter and evil queen archetypes post-Frozen indicating a more generalized shift. No one work on its own is so mighty, it has to be followed up upon.

And remember its fairly likely to 'benefit' Molly before Mab. Elsa may be a titular queen and started as villain until Idina Menzel knocked it out of the park... but the net result is firmly within the Princess archetype. That strongly indicates the Lady not the Queen. The Ladies being another example of a titular queens, but generally aren't thought of that way.

(Mind I do think there's something of a shift in culture that Frozen is a part of but its a more generalized femmine shift that includes say the Twilight and the Hunger Games. Entertainment has maybe figured out that gee women have a lot of money and how to appeal to that such as to get returns comparable to the 'general' but male weighted entertainment we are used to. Which could benefit the Queens of Faerie because they are the Six Faces of Eve but would be even more complicated. And this is me speculating, I'll need a couple more years of observation)


Anyway, to the issue above. I know "Shagnasty" is that specific Skinwalker. But that wasn't what was asked, really. Grey admits to Dresden that he is part Skinwalker (his father was one) and that is the point of the question above.

Yeah I generalized it to "a shagnasty" without the capital to further Harry's psychic efforts to defang those bastards.


Edit:
Free will. There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings about it around the web regarding the Dresdenverse. "Free Will" is a very important, but also highly abstract concept. It is NOT, as many on other forums have though a matter of being a robot. Mab can decide what she wants for dinner freely after all, in theory she can order a peperoni pizza and slum in front of Bachelor if she wants to for a night.
No, Free Will is about the capability to Change Yourself. Only humans can truly go against their nature. Mab can dress how she wants, eat what she wants, dance however she wants, sleep with whomever she wants. But she cannot stop being what the mantle says she is. Of course this also has to do with my speculation above; she might change, slowly, if the world wants her to change, but not all the way, and she might split herself, like Kringle / Odin. But it will not be her choice.

And we knowing that Mab and ostensibly every Fae was once human shifts claims like "has no soul" considerably. The Dresden Files has a couple subtle shifts in its ideology as it goes along either representing Harry learning more, Jim developing it as he goes along, or both. Certain claims have not held up in the long run, compare the Swords in Book 3 where it was a lot more ambiguous if there was anything to them.

In practical terms it is probably not be possible to pull Mab out of her nature, but if there's hope for Molly it implies at least some theoretical possibility for Mab.

And this is not the only case. Consider the Fallen and the shagnasties that were the originally divine entities and changed to their current states. Being able to rebel means you can make a choice, unless we suppose these entities to be just puppets of a larger scheme. Bob claims to have no free will but doesn't become entirely Cowl's creature when kidnapped and gets the "I know your in there somewhere" treatment which saved the day. Lash was convinced she couldn't change and made much the same claim.

We might even put Mr. Sunshine's loaning out his jumbo jet in this category given the risks that were involved, he strongly implies he acted on faith not super-duper insight that yeah it would totally work out that way and he'll do the math to prove it. It would also completely undermine that sacrifice without him actually making a choice in there.

In practice there's not much difference... but there's important distinctions between having made a choices so long ago and so often and so throughly as that you won't ever turn back, and never having ever had a choice ever.

Also purely mirrors fails to adequately explain the Dresdenverse because they still like to screw what "everybody knows" too often to actually follow up on an idea like subjective spiritual entities. Which indicates more feedback/backwash when you tap into mortal ideas then that we can all just clap our hands and believe the bad guys good.

Because you don't have to, you can become an Outsider.

[Avilan the Grey]

And we knowing that Mab and ostensibly every Fae was once human shifts claims like "has no soul" considerably. The Dresden Files has a couple subtle shifts in its ideology as it goes along either representing Harry learning more, Jim developing it as he goes along, or both. Certain claims have not held up in the long run, compare the Swords in Book 3 where it was a lot more ambiguous if there was anything to them.

In practical terms it is probably not be possible to pull Mab out of her nature, but if there's hope for Molly it implies at least some theoretical possibility for Mab.

And this is not the only case. Consider the Fallen and the shagnasties that were the originally divine entities and changed to their current states. Being able to rebel means you can make a choice, unless we suppose these entities to be just puppets of a larger scheme. Bob claims to have no free will but doesn't become entirely Cowl's creature when kidnapped and gets the "I know your in there somewhere" treatment which saved the day. Lash was convinced she couldn't change and made much the same claim.

We might even put Mr. Sunshine's loaning out his jumbo jet in this category given the risks that were involved, he strongly implies he acted on faith not super-duper insight that yeah it would totally work out that way and he'll do the math to prove it. It would also completely undermine that sacrifice without him actually making a choice in there.

In practice there's not much difference... but there's important distinctions between having made a choices so long ago and so often and so throughly as that you won't ever turn back, and never having ever had a choice ever.

Also purely mirrors fails to adequately explain the Dresdenverse because they still like to screw what "everybody knows" too often to actually follow up on an idea like subjective spiritual entities. Which indicates more feedback/backwash when you tap into mortal ideas then that we can all just clap our hands and believe the bad guys good.

Because you don't have to, you can become an Outsider.

First of all not all Fae have been human. Fairies (like Toot Toot) that live long enough and grow enough in power will, according to WOG, become Fae. Also, when a male fae and a female fae love eachother / are bored enough / have enough bondage gear... you know the story. But yes, it is feasible that not only the mantle-bearers we know of once were human, but that there are others. Harry's Godmother for example, would be good candidate.

And yes Free Will is... complicated. If you can Rebel, you have a free will, but it is possible that that is the ONLY choice they can make? Be without free will, or denounce the White God and Fall? And all angels have that option...

[Rater202]

You're a bit confused on Terms.

Fae and Fairy are interchangable.

You're thinking Sidhe, which any fae could potentially become, as they grow in authority and /or reputation and thus power.

The reason Toot Toot keeps getting bigger is because as the leader of the Za Lord's guard, he has a lot of authority one wouldn't normally see a Pixie having, and because he's hitched his wagon to harry's shooting star, so as Harry's rep increases, Toot gets some by association.

Jim has said that it's entirly possible for Toot to become a Sidhe based on what he's doing, eventually

[Avilan the Grey]

You're a bit confused on Terms.

Fae and Fairy are interchangable.

You're thinking Sidhe, which any fae could potentially become, as they grow in authority and /or reputation and thus power.

The reason Toot Toot keeps getting bigger is because as the leader of the Za Lord's guard, he has a lot of authority one wouldn't normally see a Pixie having, and because he's hitched his wagon to harry's shooting star, so as Harry's rep increases, Toot gets some by association.

Jim has said that it's entirly possible for Toot to become a Sidhe based on what he's doing, eventually

You're correct.
And yes, I know; it's like the Orks in 40k: There is a feeding circle between asskicking and authority among the Fey (Sidhe included).
If you are given more authority, you automatically actually grow in power. If you are gain power, you are automatically given more authority. This, of course, is why Harry's Godmother can be the second most powerful being after Mab in her court, far more powerful than the Winter Lady; Mab trusts her enought have given her the authority of a lady in waiting. Which in itself GIVES her power equivalent to a Sidhe second in command to Mab...
(Of course there is no absolute power levels; two second in commands might still have a power difference between them, but both have less power than Mab and more power than the next Sidhe down, so to speak).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Also pizza is a fattening food. Of course he's getting bigger.

I'll have to drag up the exact quote on what one of the Mother's said about humans, but one of them indicated changelings as Fae reproduction in a generalized manner. Hard of course to pin down a fairy, but its there which at least suggests its more normal then we might previously think. This poses plenty of ahem anatomical oddities for a lot of them, but also explains the why of changelings as more then occasional oddities.

Also Jim's probably played some CtL along the way....

[Avilan the Grey]

Also pizza is a fattening food. Of course he's getting bigger.

I'll have to drag up the exact quote on what one of the Mother's said about humans, but one of them indicated changelings as Fae reproduction in a generalized manner. Hard of course to pin down a fairy, but its there which at least suggests its more normal then we might previously think. This poses plenty of ahem anatomical oddities for a lot of them, but also explains the why of changelings as more then occasional oddities.

Also Jim's probably played some CtL along the way....

..Yes, I recall that now: Something about almost all children being human / fey mix and having to pick. Including Mab's daughter.

[Rater202]

Well, we know that at least one Troll has created a changeling via rape.

And presumably some of the more animalistic Fairies can create "Changelings" with creatures closer to them in anatomy-Like Shellycombs with crabs or Malks with cats.