Battlemaster fighter

[Tenmujiin]

So I was looking at the abilities various subclasses get and noticed that while champion and eldritch knight fighters both get a feature at lv18 the battlemaster fighter does not. Am I missing something or is this basically the only dead level in 5e.
Edit: reading further I noticed that their lv18 feature is hiden in their lv10 feature, at 18th they get d12 superiority die, still seems rather weak compaired to what the other two fighters get but at least they get something.

[Speaker]

BM fighter is pretty lackluster most of the time. The only maneuver that seems worth it is precision trip and maybe push.

[Shadow]

BM fighter is pretty lackluster most of the time. The only maneuver that seems worth it is precision trip and maybe push.

Depends on what you're going for.
Swashbuckler? riposte/disarm/parry/feint/trip
Warlord? commanders/distracting/maneuvering/rally
Mobile fighter? evasive/lunging/maneuvering/pushing
...and so on and so forth. The maneuvers are all only as good or as bad as you can think of a use for them. And their diversity leads to many upon many different styles of play contained within one single subclass. It's really like a dozen subclasses all rolled into one.

[Foodle]

Goading Attack with a ranged weapon is amazing. Forcing the creature to either attack your melee friends at disadvantage or try make it's way towards you.

[Rezby]

Battle master is more fun than champion, without dealing with complicated spells as eldritch knight. I prefer BM.

[Ghost Nappa]

BM fighter is pretty lackluster most of the time. The only maneuver that seems worth it is precision trip and maybe push.

1) Get a Rogue friend.
2) Get Commander's Strike.
3) Use Commander's Strike so Rogue Friend can Sneak Attack on your turn.
4) Rogue then Sneak Attack's on THEIR turn.
5) Profit.

[Gurka]

1) Get a Rogue friend.
2) Get Commander's Strike.
3) Use Commander's Strike so Rogue Friend can Sneak Attack on your turn.
4) Rogue then Sneak Attack's on THEIR turn.
5) Profit.

If I'm not mistaken, rogues can only benefit from sneak attack once per turn. Did I miss something that makes it otherwise?

[Demonic Spoon]

If I'm not mistaken, rogues can only benefit from sneak attack once per turn. Did I miss something that makes it otherwise?

That is correct, but commander's strike happens on the fighter's turn, which is not the same as the rogue's turn.

[Shadow]

If I'm not mistaken, rogues can only benefit from sneak attack once per turn. Did I miss something that makes it otherwise?

You're right. Once per turn.
That is different than once per round though. It is no longer the rogue's turn, and so he can sneak attack on OAs and reaction attacks if he gets them.
Commander's Strike is hands down the most cost effective maneuver by miles if there's a roguie in the party (even if that rogue is multiclass).

[Gurka]

A turn is a turn, during which everybody takes their actions on their initiative. Just because you act outside of your initiative doesn't make it a different turn. It's just like reactions of which you get one per turn, which means until everybody is done and initiative restarts. You don't get to take a reaction on your turn, and on the fighters turn, and on the mages turn, and on the bad guy's turn, etc.

It's great to be able to give up your attack to give an extra attack to an ally who can hit harder and/or make better use of the action, but it's still an extra attack out of phase, not an extra turn.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I'll have to see something pretty explicit to believe that "once per turn" abilities can be used more than once per turn.

[Shadow]

Nope, you're describing a Round, not a Turn.
Each active combatant acts on its own turn during initiative, and all of those turns combined create a combat round.
The Paladin's turn is not the Rogue's turn. The Orc's turn is not the Rogue's turn.
Once per turn, not once per round. As soon as the Rogue's turn is over, it is no longer his turn, and it is a new turn that belongs to someone else.

Once per turn abilities cannot be used more than once per turn.... but they CAN be used more than once per Round.

Both of the following are on page 189.

A typical combat encounter is a clash between two sides, a flurry of weapon swings, feints, parries, footwork, and spellcasting. The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other.

C o m b a t S t e p b y S t e p
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers’ marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are—how far away and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants’ turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.

Each combatant's turns are all separate things. Once per Turn abilities are not restricted to once per Round.

[Theodoxus]

See the WotC FAQ here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4112616)

[Person_Man]

My opinion is that the Battlemaster Fighter is a solid concept, with poor execution. The main issue seems to be that they made the Champion Fighter first, the Champion Fighter provides weak/mediocre benefits, and therefore the Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight ended up with mediocre options, because they want the subclasses to be balanced against one another.

My homebrew solution would be to provide the Battlemaster Fighter with more superiority dice, but with some maximum limit on the number of dice they can spend each round (so that they don't overshadow Smite). I would also allow them to change their maneuver choices as part of any Short or Long Rest, so that the player isn't locked into specific tactical choices.

[HorridElemental]

My opinion is that the Battlemaster Fighter is a solid concept, with poor execution. The main issue seems to be that they made the Champion Fighter first, the Champion Fighter provides weak/mediocre benefits, and therefore the Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight ended up with mediocre options, because they want the subclasses to be balanced against one another.

My homebrew solution would be to provide the Battlemaster Fighter with more superiority dice, but with some maximum limit on the number of dice they can spend each round (so that they don't overshadow Smite). I would also allow them to change their maneuver choices as part of any Short or Long Rest, so that the player isn't locked into specific tactical choices.

Pretty much the same thing that happened to the 3.5 fighter/non-casters. Eventually they got awesome but for a majority of the time they were stuck being held back by the initial weak creation.

I can't wait for the day when this per day or per rest bull crap comes to an end. Make resource management work on another end (items, reagents, or material components). Resource management can be fun but if it is getting in the way of story or a class being awesome... Well why have it?

[Theodoxus]

Are you saying that there shouldn't be resources (unlimited ability to use maneuvers, for example) or that everything should be reusable on an unlimited basis, and thus should be significantly weaker to account for it?

If the first, I can see a case, though I'd rank things like maneuvers much like spells - a few (Parry, Riposte, etc) are 'cantrips' and usable unlimited times. You don't spend dice on them, though you can (dice would still need to be used up - maybe refreshing on a per encounter (5 minute no combat?) rate. Others would require higher 'slots' to use (I'm AFB, so I won't rank them, but I'm sure you can imagine this).

If the second, then it would require a lot of rework to depower resource costing abilities to be free. Some things, like Action Surge, I can't see how you get away with making that free every round - it's far too powerful (and EVERYONE would dip Fighter 2 - regardless of build/concept).

Now, I could see moving Long Rest abilities to Short Rest and Short Rest abilities to Encounter - it would significantly empower the characters, and that would have to be taken into consideration. A lot of encounters would essentially always be met with the characters topped off and full ready to compete. A secondary limiting factor would need to be introduced - akin to Hit Dice recovery. A max of 2 or 3 Short Rests per Long Rest recovery; Spend HD to reset your abilities (1 HD for everything, but HD recovery is slow (on top of also spending the dice to get HPs back).

(ETA: I think I might use the HD to reset Long Rest abilities anyway - seems like a good use for them, and anything that adds choice is good in my book.)

Some classes (and multiclass combinations) are significantly made stronger. This would allow Fighters to always have their abilities for every fight (healing, maneuvers, action surge...) Warlocks would also be a go to dip for encounter recharged spells...

It's definitely doable - but I'd watch out for the obvious pitfalls and expect to see ones that aren't obvious at first blush.

[HorridElemental]

Are you saying that there shouldn't be resources (unlimited ability to use maneuvers, for example) or that everything should be reusable on an unlimited basis, and thus should be significantly weaker to account for it?

If the first, I can see a case, though I'd rank things like maneuvers much like spells - a few (Parry, Riposte, etc) are 'cantrips' and usable unlimited times. You don't spend dice on them, though you can (dice would still need to be used up - maybe refreshing on a per encounter (5 minute no combat?) rate. Others would require higher 'slots' to use (I'm AFB, so I won't rank them, but I'm sure you can imagine this).

If the second, then it would require a lot of rework to depower resource costing abilities to be free. Some things, like Action Surge, I can't see how you get away with making that free every round - it's far too powerful (and EVERYONE would dip Fighter 2 - regardless of build/concept).

Now, I could see moving Long Rest abilities to Short Rest and Short Rest abilities to Encounter - it would significantly empower the characters, and that would have to be taken into consideration. A lot of encounters would essentially always be met with the characters topped off and full ready to compete. A secondary limiting factor would need to be introduced - akin to Hit Dice recovery. A max of 2 or 3 Short Rests per Long Rest recovery; Spend HD to reset your abilities (1 HD for everything, but HD recovery is slow (on top of also spending the dice to get HPs back).

(ETA: I think I might use the HD to reset Long Rest abilities anyway - seems like a good use for them, and anything that adds choice is good in my book.)

Some classes (and multiclass combinations) are significantly made stronger. This would allow Fighters to always have their abilities for every fight (healing, maneuvers, action surge...) Warlocks would also be a go to dip for encounter recharged spells...

It's definitely doable - but I'd watch out for the obvious pitfalls and expect to see ones that aren't obvious at first blush.


Ok so I don't have much time but essentially make everything at-will or have a resource management that isn't based on sleep cycle.

Balance it however you wish, but I think of it this way... How silly, in game world, is it that a caster or non-casters bases their day of adventuring off when they go to bed? Resource management can work, just I think D&D has it on the wrong end of things.

I can't do this maneuver again because the enemy had seen my move and will see an opening... That is a better resource management style than /rest.

[Gurka]

You are correct it would appear regarding rogues, and since my nomenclature was off. This also prompts me to reappraise the potential of rogues in general.

Learn something new every day.

[Theodoxus]

Ok so I don't have much time but essentially make everything at-will or have a resource management that isn't based on sleep cycle.

Balance it however you wish, but I think of it this way... How silly, in game world, is it that a caster or non-casters bases their day of adventuring off when they go to bed? Resource management can work, just I think D&D has it on the wrong end of things.

I can't do this maneuver again because the enemy had seen my move and will see an opening... That is a better resource management style than /rest.

That's what 4th ed did... pretty much everything was a low powered at-will, a medium powered encounter or high powered daily power. And a large portion (or at least very vocal minority) hated it. 5th has taken a step back, took ideas from later 3rd ed, a sprinkling of 4th and a modicum of common sense and tied everything to a rest cycle. You're either taking a breather (and they even admitted that an hour is probably too long, hence different rest options in the DMG) or you're sleeping to get back some of your 'oomph'.

Personally, I'd be ok with letting maneuvers be at-will, but superiority dice be short rest. You can attempt trips and ripostes and parrys and goads all day long if you want - but you can only add a bit of luck/gumption/panache/grit (aka Superiority dice) - whatever you want to call it - a few times before you run out of points and have to take a breather. Probably most classes could use a bit more uses in their signature abilities.

[HorridElemental]

That's what 4th ed did... pretty much everything was a low powered at-will, a medium powered encounter or high powered daily power. And a large portion (or at least very vocal minority) hated it. 5th has taken a step back, took ideas from later 3rd ed, a sprinkling of 4th and a modicum of common sense and tied everything to a rest cycle. You're either taking a breather (and they even admitted that an hour is probably too long, hence different rest options in the DMG) or you're sleeping to get back some of your 'oomph'.

Personally, I'd be ok with letting maneuvers be at-will, but superiority dice be short rest. You can attempt trips and ripostes and parrys and goads all day long if you want - but you can only add a bit of luck/gumption/panache/grit (aka Superiority dice) - whatever you want to call it - a few times before you run out of points and have to take a breather. Probably most classes could use a bit more uses in their signature abilities.

Not really, everything was still based on resting and you had encounter and daily powers.


Setting up a system where everything is at will but your resource management is not based on sleep would be like...

Level 1-5 spells are at will. Make sure these spells are vastly different and don't overlap all that much. But for level 6-9 you have to find the specific material components. So a DM can day 1/day you do find the material component automatically or they can RP am adventure. However within the narrative it just makes more damn sense.

The thing is though, the battlemaster's abilities aren't fantastical enough to warrent resource management of rest or most other kinds. The resource management comes from enemies seeing openings in their fighting style. So I could see if you spam maneuvers then you start taking disadvantage or they gain advantage on their saves. If you continuously try to trip an enemy the same way... They will learn your fighting style and be able to dodge easier.

Know X maneuvers and if you use them (start with 2 and improve with level) times per encounter then enemies don't catch on. But if you go above that number then you can still do the maneuver but you take disadvantage/they gain advantage. This will allow the resource management but not screw with the narrative of "I trip someone and have to rest for a damn hour".

[Theodoxus]

You didn't mention superiority dice - my primary issue with being able to spam maneuvers as listed is it provides a ton of benefit if you get to add a d8+ to hit or damage every time.

So I'm in favor of making maneuvers spammable, but having superiority dice have resource management. Even fewer dice, but usable per encounter would be ok.

[HorridElemental]

You didn't mention superiority dice - my primary issue with being able to spam maneuvers as listed is it provides a ton of benefit if you get to add a d8+ to hit or damage every time.

So I'm in favor of making maneuvers spammable, but having superiority dice have resource management. Even fewer dice, but usable per encounter would be ok.

Oh, sorry, throw the dice out. That mechanic can be forgotten for all I care.

Also make maneuvers work on all attacks for the turn but only once per enemy. So I'm a polearm fighter and I have three attacks and want to use my super awesome trip maneuver then I can run along, staying outside the reach of my enemies, and attempt to trip up to three of them. Or I can use my trip and goading strike in the same turn in some combination.

Note: Attack rolls are for damage, saving throws are for effects. I changed my mind on giving disadvantage to the fighter, the attack may land as normal but the effect doesn't work. So if you go over your allotment of maneuvers for the battle the enemies get advantage on their saves. If the effect is extra damage, say from a power attack maneuver, then it is considered an additional effect and allows a save to negate. This allows the fighter to not have to gamble so much but their effects may never take place if used to often.

Again, throw away the dice, perhaps allow the fighter to increase their base weapon dice by one step (or three times over 20 levels)? So a 20th level fighter with a dagger will do 1d8 points of damage (+mod) instead of 1d4 points of damage (+mod). Fluff it as higher skill or bigger weapons for all I care :p (buster sword stuff haha)

Edit:

Power Attack: You put a bit more power into the swing of your weapon. When you use this on your turn you deal an additional d8 points of damage when you hit with a weapon attack. This damage is negated by a Dexterity or Constitution Save (dodge or resist).

Allowing this to work on all attacks makes it increase with level without needing to build such a mechanic within the maneuver. The fighter gains more attacks as she levels up and that is a pretty good boost. If you MC outside of fighter then you lose this upgrade.