Need help with rats!

[Goblite]

I'm building a character that is very heavily rat themed. He will have strong summoning capabilities and I would like to be able to continue with the rats theme into mid and high levels but summoning 1d4+1 dire rats isn't going to be very effective no matter what tricks I try to pull. I would greatly prefer to use legitimate rules, templates, etc... than to simply homebrew rat creatures or summon a dire wolf and arbitrarily call it a "very dire" rat. What I need help with is finding or creating suitable rats, rat-like, or rat themed creatures for summoning at mid to high level.

The character will be a jermlaine (MMII) shaman (OA) with the summoning and pestilence domains as well as a dire rat animal companion. Background will be something about the fey spirits of ratkind wanting him to travel around and make rat populations more prosperous and virile, or something... irrelevant really.

The character will have nearly full access to the following lines of spells: summon natures ally, summon monster, planar ally, and spirit ally. This should make things a bit easier as a ghost or fiendish templated anthropomorphic rat is a potentially valid spirit/planar ally. I'm open to any suggestions and thank you all for any ideas!

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, once you get to where you're summoning groups of things, rather than single things, you can stack on Empower and Maximize. Add in some metamagic reducers, and tada! Rat Summoner extraordinaire!

I'm off to work on a possible build...

[Inevitability]

Spell Thematics (rats).

[Kornaki]

Spell Thematics (rats).

He doesn't want to reskin things, the last thing he needs is to waste a feat doing it.

[Quiddle]

There is the pathfinder summoner class that's let you custom build a eidolon. You could make a rat themed eidolon.

[Darrin]

Dip a level of Warlock and you can summon a swarm of rats as an SLA at will. Summon at least 50 of them and you can use Dark Speech (BoVD) to create a hivemind.

[Goblite]

I love spell thematics but i used it on my last character and don't foresee needing to hide what spell i'm casting. I'd rather use a feat on something towards augment summons or something.

I normally don't dig dips but at will rat swarm is extremely tempting. It only lasts while you maintain concentration so it would be one at a time, but still very handy and no attack rolls required. The real question would be whether it's worth a the loss of a caster level and no class feature progress.

It never hit me that summoning multiple creatures was a variable numeric effect! an Empowered and sudden maximized Summon Monster III of 15 fiendish dire rats with augment summoning could very well be worth a 5th level slot, even a 6th level if i take imbued summoning and slap bull's str on them. With proper foresight Imbued Summoning and weapon bless on the rat's bites specifying a target could be tremendously powerful.

[Milodiah]

Aaaah, GitP. First we optimize the gods, then we optimize the rats.

[eggynack]

Greenbound summoning could help a bunch. The SLA effects don't really care about the power level of the base creature, so rats work about as well as anything. You're kinda getting distant from rats as the basis of the effect at that point, but it is what it is. Way I figure it, if not-rats that kinda act like rats are bad, then maybe rats that kinda act like not-rats might be fine.

[daremetoidareyo]

summon monster 2: nezumi w/nagamaki & short bow (if dm lets you put it on the list instead of something else.)
Medium-Size Humanoid (Nezumi) Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 13 (+3 ashigaru armor)
Attacks: Nagamaki +2 melee; or unarmed strike +1 melee; or
composite shortbow +1 ranged
Damage: Nagamaki 2d4; unarmed strike 1d4; composite short-
bow 1d6
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Nezumi traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +2, Hide +1, Jump +2, Move Silently +1 Feats: Weapon Focus (nagamaki)
Climate/Terrain: Shadowlands
Organization: Solitary, team (2–9), band (10–60), or pack
(76–95)
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral Advancement: By character class
The nezumi, or “ratlings” as they are often called by humans, are a race of bipedal ratlike humanoids. In Rokugan, they are an ancient race native to the Shadowlands. Before the fall of the seven kami, the ratlings of Rokugan lived in grand cities in a mighty empire. On an apocalyptic day nezumi legend dubs “The Terrible Day When Air Became Fire and Heaven Fell From Its Perch to Crush Our Glorious Home Beneath Its Blackened Corpse,” the empire of the ratlings was destroyed and the Shadowlands was born. In the aftermath of that event, the ratlings have become hardy and wily scavengers, eking out a meager existence in the midst of Rokugan’s great- est horrors.
Nezumi look like nothing so much as humanoid rats. They stand upright, roughly as tall as a human (averaging about 5 1/2 feet tall and 155 pounds). They have long snouts, pink ears, and pronounced incisors, like ordinary rodents. Their bodies are covered with rough fur, ranging in shade from white through gray and brown to black, sometimes solid and sometimes pat- terned. Fur patterns tend to run in ratling families.
The nezumi have five-fingered hands, opposable thumbs, and sharp claws. Their long tails are mostly hairless and have the same pink coloration as their ears and palms. Their legs are bent like those of rats and have only three toes.
Like human barbarians, nezumi often wear earrings in their pierced ears, necklaces made of bone or teeth, and similar orna- mentation that humans usually consider savage.
Nezumi speak their own language and a strange dialect of Rokugani (Common), punctuated with clicks and squeaks and a stuttering repetition.Nezumi utilize their natural stealth and their knowledge of ter- rain to their advantage in combat, ambushing opponents from cover or harrying them with ranged weapons and retreating. They fight wildly, alternating between blows with a weapon and unarmed strikes.
Nezumi Traits (Ex): Nezumi benefit from a number of racial traits.
• Low-light Vision: Nezumi can see twice as far as a human in
starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Nezumi are naturally stealthy.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison and disease: Nezumi are resistant to illness and toxins.
• Immune to the Shadowlands Taint: Nezumi can never have a Taint score, and suffer no ill effects from exposure to the Shadowlands. They can still be harmed by effects such as the cloud of Taint spell or the special attacks of Shadowlands creatures, however.
• Keen Scent: Nezumi have a better sense of smell than humans do, and are often more able to distinguish humans from each other by scent than by sight. As a feat, a nezumi with a Wisdom of 11 or higher can take Scent, which is equivalent to the special ability described somewhere important or something


http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf (convenient list of templates that I googled, yo)

[Baroknik]

Dip a level of Warlock and you can summon a swarm of rats as an SLA at will. Summon at least 50 of them and you can use Dark Speech (BoVD) to create a hivemind.

This is probably the highest powered option -- create a hive mind with the instructions to learn Dark Speech and integrate more rats into themselves.

Eventually you will create a rat-god hive mind. Except this one will have NI Sorc Casting/HD.

[Inevitability]

Hm... How about taking 3 levels in stoneblessed (gnome) and then taking the Animal Friends feat (RoF)?

[Feint's End]

Greenbound summoning could help a bunch. The SLA effects don't really care about the powe9r level of the base creature, so rats work about as well as anything. You're kinda getting distant from rats as the basis of the effect at that point, but it is what it is. Way I figure it, if not-rats that kinda act like rats are bad, then maybe rats that kinda act like not-rats might be fine.

Though green bound summoning is A overpowered and B turns them into plants (not rats anymore).

If you use the intended metamagic cost of 2 though and can reflavour the plant part it would be a decent option.

[Goblite]

summon monster 2: nezumi w/nagamaki & short bow (if dm lets you put it on the list instead of something else.)
Medium-Size Humanoid (Nezumi) Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 13 (+3 ashigaru armor)
Attacks: Nagamaki +2 melee; or unarmed strike +1 melee; or
composite shortbow +1 ranged
Damage: Nagamaki 2d4; unarmed strike 1d4; composite short-
bow 1d6
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Nezumi traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +2, Hide +1, Jump +2, Move Silently +1 Feats: Weapon Focus (nagamaki)
Climate/Terrain: Shadowlands
Organization: Solitary, team (2–9), band (10–60), or pack
(76–95)
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral Advancement: By character class
The nezumi, or “ratlings” as they are often called by humans, are a race of bipedal ratlike humanoids. In Rokugan, they are an ancient race native to the Shadowlands. Before the fall of the seven kami, the ratlings of Rokugan lived in grand cities in a mighty empire. On an apocalyptic day nezumi legend dubs “The Terrible Day When Air Became Fire and Heaven Fell From Its Perch to Crush Our Glorious Home Beneath Its Blackened Corpse,” the empire of the ratlings was destroyed and the Shadowlands was born. In the aftermath of that event, the ratlings have become hardy and wily scavengers, eking out a meager existence in the midst of Rokugan’s great- est horrors.
Nezumi look like nothing so much as humanoid rats. They stand upright, roughly as tall as a human (averaging about 5 1/2 feet tall and 155 pounds). They have long snouts, pink ears, and pronounced incisors, like ordinary rodents. Their bodies are covered with rough fur, ranging in shade from white through gray and brown to black, sometimes solid and sometimes pat- terned. Fur patterns tend to run in ratling families.
The nezumi have five-fingered hands, opposable thumbs, and sharp claws. Their long tails are mostly hairless and have the same pink coloration as their ears and palms. Their legs are bent like those of rats and have only three toes.
Like human barbarians, nezumi often wear earrings in their pierced ears, necklaces made of bone or teeth, and similar orna- mentation that humans usually consider savage.
Nezumi speak their own language and a strange dialect of Rokugani (Common), punctuated with clicks and squeaks and a stuttering repetition.Nezumi utilize their natural stealth and their knowledge of ter- rain to their advantage in combat, ambushing opponents from cover or harrying them with ranged weapons and retreating. They fight wildly, alternating between blows with a weapon and unarmed strikes.
Nezumi Traits (Ex): Nezumi benefit from a number of racial traits.
• Low-light Vision: Nezumi can see twice as far as a human in
starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• +2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Nezumi are naturally stealthy.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison and disease: Nezumi are resistant to illness and toxins.
• Immune to the Shadowlands Taint: Nezumi can never have a Taint score, and suffer no ill effects from exposure to the Shadowlands. They can still be harmed by effects such as the cloud of Taint spell or the special attacks of Shadowlands creatures, however.
• Keen Scent: Nezumi have a better sense of smell than humans do, and are often more able to distinguish humans from each other by scent than by sight. As a feat, a nezumi with a Wisdom of 11 or higher can take Scent, which is equivalent to the special ability described somewhere important or something

This is a tremendously useful idea. I'm not sure how well it would go on the summon monster list but a nezumi as a templated planar ally would work wonderfully. Or even as a playable race for the character.



Hm... How about taking 3 levels in stoneblessed (gnome) and then taking the Animal Friends feat (RoF)?
As a jermlaine I won't need the levels in stoneblessed in order to speak with animals, jermlaine can speak with rats at will.

Greenbound does seem pretty overpowered. I've been thinking about adding advanced HD dire rats to the higher summon lists.

[eggynack]

Though green bound summoning is A overpowered and B turns them into plants (not rats anymore).
They're still rats. Just plant-rats. As for it being overpowered, somewhat, yes, though even without abusing SLA's you're still getting above average statistical bumps, and that's a pretty important thing in this case. In any case, I think it's definitely a plan worth considering, especially as we're working with below average creatures here.

[TheCrowing1432]

become a wererat?

[Seruvius]

Become a wererat. will hurt your caster level but you gain control over all other rats, natural armour 3, DR 10/silver +4dex +2con and wis etc. The level adjustment and racial HD will hurt but its definitealy thematic and if your DM allows you to buy off LA then it could be an interesting build. As you can communiate with rats, dire rats and similar and get a +4 on any charisma based roll relating to them, you could buff diplomacy and just have a huge hoard of rat minions, sort of like a Deathmaster/dreadmaster and his undead minions. THen if you add usmmons, empowered summons and similar that is a ridiculpous number of rat related shenanigans.

For more powerful summons you could always replace a higher usmmon with a dire rat with mroe HD. I ran an encounter a while back with a wererat with 2 "beeders" as the thing the party saw when entering the room, huge bloated female rats covered in suckilng young, each with 40+hp and a rat swarm bodyguard, so maybe just use that.
One thing i saw being used was someone using Warhammer Skaven figures and just counting as various other things, rat ogres counted as trolls, rathounds counted as wolves etc. Come up with something rat related and slap the stats of something else on it and hey presto youve got a rat everything.

[Goblite]

They're still rats. Just plant-rats. As for it being overpowered, somewhat, yes, though even without abusing SLA's you're still getting above average statistical bumps, and that's a pretty important thing in this case. In any case, I think it's definitely a plan worth considering, especially as we're working with below average creatures here.

True enough. I could always drop the plant subtype too.



Become a were-rat
eh... as a jermlaine he's already ratty, can already communicate with rats, and i'm pondering picking up the nature domain later on which will let me rebuke/command animals so a lot of the benefits would be redundant. I do have the pestilence domain, however, which will let me curse others with rat-lycanthropy later on.



Another thought, evil clerics can bolster undead with their turning which grants bonus hit dice, right? Is there a feat or special ability around that could let that apply to summons?

[Inevitability]

As a jermlaine I won't need the levels in stoneblessed in order to speak with animals, jermlaine can speak with rats at will.

Speak with rats? I'm sorry, but I am not sure we're talking about the same thing here.

I am saying that if you take 3 levels of Stoneblessed, you can qualify for feats as if you were a gnome. Now you can use this newfound gnome-ness to take the Animal Friends feat, a gnome-only feat from Races of Faerun that gives you a small number of pets. Take it once and you gain 8 rats, 2 dire rats, or a combination of those as permanent allies.

[The Viscount]

If you're a neutral or evil shaman you can always put that rebuking to good use. There are several rat undead, including the corpse rat swarm, bone rat swarm, and ephemeral swarm. The ephemeral swarm is particularly nasty; it's the only incorporeal swarm that I know of, and that combination makes for unpleasantness, plus their swarm attack deals Str damage. There's also the plague spewer, which is a Giant undead that can spit up rat swarms.

I'm trying to find ways to nab moon rat or ash rat, but I'm pulling up blank. Summoning isn't really my game. Maybe someone else knows.

[Goblite]

Speak with rats? I'm sorry, but I am not sure we're talking about the same thing here.

I am saying that if you take 3 levels of Stoneblessed, you can qualify for feats as if you were a gnome. Now you can use this newfound gnome-ness to take the Animal Friends feat, a gnome-only feat from Races of Faerun that gives you a small number of pets. Take it once and you gain 8 rats, 2 dire rats, or a combination of those as permanent allies.

Ah gotcha, the stoneblessed 3 also comes with getting to speak with animals (useful for directing summoned animals) and apparently my brain just stopped there. Having multiple permanent rat companions would be a fun thing to play with but my DM's like to have "boss fights" where stuff gets really hard and deadly after the roleplay which leads to the death of almost all npc's that come with us. I have a hunch that low hd companions would get squished very quickly. The feat doesn't say anything about replacing them once they're dead does it?

[Inevitability]

The feat doesn't say anything about replacing them once they're dead does it?

It actually does; you can replace them after a month. Yeah, not really great.

On the other side, they are rats, so there should be a lot of hiding spaces for one. Maybe instruct them to hide when you know a boss fight is coming, then return to pick them up later?

[Oryan77]

If there is some way for you to obtain a swarm of rats, or summon a swarm of rats, the Cranium Rat swarm from Fiend Folio might be useful. The bigger the pack, the more powerful they become and the more spells they can cast. The Greater pack is a CR 11 in Fiend Folio, but was changed to CR 9 in the Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

These originated from Planescape and I've always liked their concept. There is a 2e Planescape NPC called The Us which is a large swarm of these rats.

I've always wanted to play a Rat Lord like this ever since seeing the movie Willard. Watch the original and the remake for inspiration if you haven't seen them. Also, be sure to play the song Ben from the Jackson 5 whenever your PC camps for the night and talks to his rats. It would be appropriate. :smalltongue: He is singing about his friend Ben, which was the name of the main rat from Willard.

[Milodiah]

If your DM is open to (minor) houseruling, you could go for a modified version of Vipergout as a low level spell, changed from spewing SNAKES from your MOUTH to spewing DIRE RATS from your MOUTH.

I know it's a bit underpowered, but to me it's just one of those spells where its performance is buffed by its cool factor alone.

[Inevitability]

On a related note, for some versatility: wizards can choose to gain a druid animal companion at 1/2 level progression (unearthed arcana) and druids can get a modified familiar (cityscape web enhancement) so that gives you some flexibility with the classes.

[Goblite]

modified vipergout, definitely asking for that one.

[atemu1234]

Aaaah, GitP. First we optimize the gods, then we optimize the rats.

I should really go back and retry that project...

[ShurikVch]

Several ideas (regardless your actual build, maybe you will like something):
Animal Companion: Horrid Dire Rat (Eberron Campaign Setting)

Urban Class Features (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a): City-Shape (Rat Swarm), Urban Companion (Rat)

Familiars:
Rat,
Salvage Rat - construct which can gnaw trough any metallic armor (Dr#341),
Rat Swarm, Bone Rat Swarm, Corpse Rat Swarm - available as familiar in Dr#329

Zceryll, "The Star Spawn" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718): Summon Alien (1d4+1 Pseudonatural Fiendish Dire Rats) at will, and for the whole day

Fiendish Servant for Blackguard: Fiendish Dire Rat

Summoning rules variant from Dr#302: Summon Monster may summon any elemental or outsider which fit in CR restriction. (Fiendish Titanic Rat will fit for Summon Monster IX)

Plague Spewer (MM3): Vomit Rat Swarm (Su) 4/day

Squerrik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squerrik): try to summon his aspect or something...

[The Viscount]

Fiendish rats are not outsiders, but magical beasts, so that one unfortunately won't work.

Curse of Lycanthropy (the SpC one is completely different from the CDiv one) lets you summon wererats while killing a target, so might be useful. Because there's no duration, the wererats are simply there forever. Why a spell that creates life from nothing is classified under necromancy I'll never know.

[AvatarVecna]

Goblite casts "Animate Thread". It's super-effective!

[Rijan_Sai]

Goblite casts "Animate Thread". It's super-effective!

Nov 8 2014 - Apr 22 2015 < 6 months. No thread necromancy required!

*Wishes he had something rat-based and relavent, but does not...*

[AvatarVecna]

Apologies then, I didn't quite do the math. Still, even with doing the math, it's about 5.5 months after the previous post--technically following the letter of the rule, but coming closer and closer to flying in the face of the rule's spirit. Complaint retracted. Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to the conversation (other than what I originally added, which doesn't change anything).

[eggynack]

Nov 8 2014 - Apr 22 2015 < 6 months. No thread necromancy required!

It is also greater than 45 days, which is the actual limit on thread necromancy per the site rules. The advice of me in the here and now isn't significantly different from the advice of the me of six months ago either, so I shall stand by past me's work.

[Savannah]

The Mod One Out: Thread necromancy.