Fighting at a DnD tournament and need help Oo

[Cler1c]

Hey there friends :)

A friend of mine asked me to be his partner in the DnD duo area tournament a local gameshop is organising.
And since he is a dear friend of mine I didn't want to let him down (he didn't have anyone else) but we will be fighting against pretty experienced players there and I wouldn't like of us to fail in the first rounds (my friend was really looking forward to the game, I know it means a lot to him) and since it has been ages since I've played DnD (actually just started DM-ing 5E after a decade) I had no idea what the best course of action for us should be. I have been reading a bit but due to RL work I can't find the time to dedicate myself to this so I wanted to pop here and ask you fellas if you have any advice, it would be really welcomed! :) The tournament is in 3 days btw so we are a bit short on time as well :) I know I'm asking for much, but any help would be most helpful really! :) Thanks in advance.
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Tournament conditions are : Classes and races are limited to the core books : Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual
The characters need to be level 4. They receive 78 ability points and 5400 GP to buy equipment.
Items (scrolls, potions) cannot exceed caster level 5. And the maximum amount to spend on one item cannot exceed 2700 GP. After each battle there is a day rest.

[georgie_leech]

This seems like a set up to encourage casters. What are the buffing rules? As in, are long term buffs allowed to be up at the start of the fight? Are there pre-buffing rounds allowed?

[Cler1c]

I believe you will be popping into the arena as it is. With no pre buff time or prolonged buffs also :(

[Snowbluff]

Heeeeey, 8uddy. >:D

Did you know that you can get into master of shrouds at level 4? Did you know that 90% of players won't be able to counter your summons?

[Kornaki]

Can you describe a bit more the starting fight conditions? Are you in a featureless circular arena, how far apart do you start from the other team/each other, etc.

[Cler1c]

Unfortunately they are keeping the arena details secret so no idea on that really. And there will be multiple arenas. And no prestige classes are allowed Snowbluff. :) Only the basic ones in the core three books. :)

[georgie_leech]

Heeeeey, 8uddy. >:D

Did you know that you can get into master of shrouds at level 4? Did you know that 90% of players won't be able to counter your summons?

Is there a way to get in at level 3? Otherwise it's unhelpful, as they only get to summon shadows after 2 levels anyway.

[Cler1c]

Perhaps a druid and a cleric?

[dascarletm]

Let's see. So you are level 4? At this level, core only I'm wondering if the usual suspects will dominate the battlefield...

When you say you get 78 points to spend in ability scores are there maximum/minimum values that are allowed?

[Snowbluff]

Is there a way to get in at level 3? Otherwise it's unhelpful, as they only get to summon shadows after 2 levels anyway.

Bah, that's right! That's what I get for doing this from my head!

Still, i have 103 other options for being a jerk at low levels. :smalltongue:

[Quiddle]

I assume you will be fully healed and spells re prepared between fights. I suggest a Druid.

[Cler1c]

Let's see. So you are level 4? At this level, core only I'm wondering if the usual suspects will dominate the battlefield...

When you say you get 78 points to spend in ability scores are there maximum/minimum values that are allowed?

78 ability points - free distribution (not point buy), min 3 and max 18 per ability. :)

Scrolls, potions and wands can be bought
Items with x/day stacks are renewed after a rest.
Items with x(uses) are not regenerating their x number of stacks when used.

Hope it helps. :)

[A_S]

You said core-only classes and races...can you use other stuff (feats, spells, skill tricks, etc.) from other books, or is it entirely a core-only tournament?

[Cler1c]

You said core-only classes and races...can you use other stuff (feats, spells, skill tricks, etc.) from other books, or is it entirely a core-only tournament?

Yes the feats, spells and everything related to char. creation is from the core books. I can't tell what the option with the items is, but I have asked and hope to get an answer.

Well, I will be going to bed now, long day tomorrow - thank you guys so much for the already offered help. :D

[(Un)Inspired]

It seems like a Druid or wizard is really the way to go here. There's not gonna be enough time for a cleric to buff up and DMM isn't available.

You should build an initiative focused Wizard that webs and greases your enemies before they can act and your partner should be a Druid who's AC carves up the disabled foes.

[Galen]

TBH, I like two Druids here. Just two druids and two animal companions...

[Randomguy]

A team with a trip fighter and a wizard on it could make a pretty nice combo. Wizard buffs up the fighter with Enlarge Person and some other choice buffs (blur, bull's strength, maybe protection from arrows, protection from evil), maybe using some battlefield control or debuffs when the fighter's all buffed up, and the fighter uses his reach to keep enemy melee characters from getting to to the squishy wizard.

[Forrestfire]

I feel like two druids and two animal companions, with some purchased and trained riding dogs, are the way to go here.

[dascarletm]

Web can be a problem if the terrain is featureless with no ceiling.

Though grease will still be pretty good.

I would suggest a druid and a wizard.

get 16s in your dex/con, 18 in primary casting stats, 9 or 10 in everything else. maybe 6 in cha. (you don't want to get ability drained)

someone might dump str on their wizard, ray of enfeeblement might be a solid investment.

With the druid summon a griffon and send in your animal companion to engage any casters on their side, while the wizard greases anyone who doesn't look like they'd have ranks in balance or a strong reflex save.

I'd just go full debuff/BFC on the wizard, and summoning/smashing on the druid. Though really you won't need much smashing, put that secondary to the BFC/debuff. Then your pet can just nom nom them.



A team with a trip fighter and a wizard on it could make a pretty nice combo. Wizard buffs up the fighter with Enlarge Person and some other choice buffs (blur, bull's strength, maybe protection from arrows, protection from evil), maybe using some battlefield control or debuffs when the fighter's all buffed up, and the fighter uses his reach to keep enemy melee characters from getting to to the squishy wizard.
Only problem with that is that rounds are limited currency with no pre-buffing. Spending 3-5 rounds buffing will probably net you 0 rounds to use it.

Buffs are nice, but high consideration of action potential should be enacted.

[Silva Stormrage]

What would be the rules on having undead minions?

Could you be a cleric and cast animate dead on two corpse of a 10 headed hydras? Get two ludicrously overpowered tanks? (Obviously you should vary your undead as two 20ft moving hydras would just get kited around.

It would only cost you 550 GP too. I would suggest doing this even if you aren't a cleric or can't get access to animate dead. Cross class UMD and scrolls.

[skypse]

Druids with different purpose-serving familiars
Rangers on different styles and CC pets
Fighter/Barbie+Wizard/Cleric combo
Summoners (if UM is allowed) otherwise conjuration wizard may make the trick.
2 Wizards heavily focused on scorching ray/flaming sphere+web combo
Good old-fashioned barbies with quick runner's shirt (1000g) for 1 free movement (barbies are some of the stronger classes at first levels)
Elven rogues+elven curve blade+potion of invisibility (300g each) for free sneaks since noone has immunity to precision dmg at level 4

And my pick of the day (even if I hate this class): 2 Paladins. You may not benefit from the smite ability, but at level 4 they have the highest powerspike compared to any other class by adding they charisma in all of their saves (making them REALLY strong against casters), LoH for swift action healing, heavy armor, kickin' ass n takin' names...

[Snowbluff]

So classes and races have to be core... what about feats? Pick up Law Devotion. >:D

[Squirrel_Dude]

I might actually suggest a cleric over a Druid, if only because pre-buffing won't be allowed, Druid's wont have access to wildshape yet, and Clerics will get heavy armor. Level 4 is still the point where fighters and other tanky classes have a decent gap in hit points. Also, the cleric spell list is much better in core than the Druid's IMO. That said, Druids do get entangle and can summon monsters spontaneously.

[torrasque666]

So classes and races have to be core... what about feats? Pick up Law Devotion. >:D

Post #14 bro.

[Snowbluff]

Post #14 bro.

*flips the Emerald Spire*

Druids. Just make Druids.

[Calimehter]

How many trained fighting mules can you buy with a 5400gp allowance?

:smallbiggrin:

Even if the GM doesn't allow you to give them a full set of tricks, they make fine battlefield "control" to hide behind while raining down ranged death of your choice.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think we can just about all agree you want at least one Druid. I'll give you good BFC and decent hp and an animal companion and a good handle animal roll for directing your swarm of riding dogs.

I would still go with a wizard as your second character. You really need a wizards ability to win initiatives+cast the absolute best BFC in core.

Entangle is fantastic but the area might lack plant life leaving you sol.

Someone mentioned using two paladins but I honestly think that team will get creamed by a wizard with a significantly higher initiative casting grease.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would do it with duel wizards and fell drain magic missile wands of doom.

Arcane Thesis, Easy Meta: Twin, Easy Meta: Quicken, Sanctum Spell, Invisible, Easy Meta: Fell Drain, Fell Drained, Twinned, Quickened, Invisible, Sanctum, Magic Missile.

That casts as a third level spell and thus costs 2,250 GP. You also want a non quickened one for each player. Then you win initiative and use the Quickened Wand and then the regular wand to deal 4 negative levels to each enemy at the same time. The only real defense is the spell Shield.

[torrasque666]

I would do it with duel wizards and fell drain magic missile wands of doom.

Arcane Thesis, Easy Meta: Twin, Easy Meta: Quicken, Sanctum Spell, Invisible, Easy Meta: Fell Drain, Fell Drained, Twinned, Quickened, Invisible, Sanctum, Magic Missile.

That casts as a third level spell and thus costs 2,250 GP. You also want a non quickened one for each player. Then you win initiative and use the Quickened Wand and then the regular wand to deal 4 negative levels to each enemy at the same time. The only real defense is the spell Shield.

As well as the fact that half of that isn't Core, which is the limitation.

[Emperor Tippy]

As well as the fact that half of that isn't Core, which is the limitation.

The limitation on sources only applied to classes and races per the OP, not feats.

[torrasque666]

The limitation on sources only applied to classes and races per the OP, not feats.

Again, I will point you to post #14. He might want to edit the OP.

[Emperor Tippy]

Again, I will point you to post #14. He might want to edit the OP.

And thus my interest ends. I can't be bothered to help people who can't post all of the relevant information initially.

Granted, that is is ECL 4 core only already makes it quite boring.

[PraxisVetli]

With it being lvl 4, won't sleep and colour spray essentially dominate the field?
I feel like 1 lvl in wizard is sufficient.
1 wiz, 2 pally for cha to saves, maybe fighter for Improved Init.
bam.

[Thealtruistorc]

Torture some people into insanity to create an allip army. Cast command undead and it's game over.

[emeraldstreak]

I would do it with duel wizards and fell drain magic missile wands of doom.

Arcane Thesis, Easy Meta: Twin, Easy Meta: Quicken, Sanctum Spell, Invisible, Easy Meta: Fell Drain, Fell Drained, Twinned, Quickened, Invisible, Sanctum, Magic Missile.

That casts as a third level spell and thus costs 2,250 GP. You also want a non quickened one for each player. Then you win initiative and use the Quickened Wand and then the regular wand to deal 4 negative levels to each enemy at the same time. The only real defense is the spell Shield.


LOL

Fell drain/meta MM is like the number one build "best at their table" newbies bring to arenas, so starry-eyed and certain of victory I can't help but feel a bit sorry before they suffer the inevitable ass-whooping by true champion builds.


Back to OP's question (Core only)

Ages ago when there weren't many splat books out and the CoCo Gladius was mostly core, my undefeated champion who set the record to fastest Grandmaster rank, was something in the line of Deep Dwarf multiclass of Cleric with Travel and Magic domains, a Monk level, and I honestly can't remember what others; but I do remember most fights against unassuming opponents when like:

- the Gladius had some prebuff/starting distance (mind you even putting armor is a pre-buff if you can't wear it all the time); Fly up and kill them from above, usually by simply overreaching them with guisarme/Enlarge. But that worked only against poorly prepared opponents.

- Virtually any well-prepared opponent starts with Invisibility, so your own Invisibility and See Invisibility is a must (as Fly) and after that the true fight begins and it could take many forms.

There are some easy consumable defenses, ie:

- Delay Poison by a Ranger
- Prot from Arrows if your opponents are naive enough to skip magic damage while relying on ranged
- elemental damage protections
- Silence! A big one to shut down dangerous casters
- Freedom of Movement from domain if you can't get it from somewhere else\
- Shield (mind you it's a personal spell it can't be potion'ed)
- Alter Self when you can grab something worthy

Speaking of dangerous casters, the DCs of focused Old Gray Elf are very high. Starting off with things like Color Spray and progressing to Hold Person, Blindness etc magic is very dangerous. When facing optimized magic the primary objective is to defeat it without ever risking being targeted by it (ie sniping the enemy from Stealth, going Silence grapple from Stealth/Invisibility, using appropriate magic defenses). Even so I preferred playing with saves as high as possible (hence Deep Dwarf multiclass).

Meanwhile, most straight melee brutes, ie an Orc charger, can be defeated by your own magic even if you're not that focused because of how weak their defenses are. Stealth builds should also be mentioned should the map empower them to keep sniping from afar hidden, and as far as I understand you know nothing of the maps. This also puts a premium on high initiative builds, especially if no prebuff time is allowed.

Ready Action is something to be mentioned also, you wouldn't believe how many people I have defeated because of its exact wording or the fact that it allows a 5ft step in addition to a standard action. It may also cause some complicated adjucating for the judges that may be resolved in a couple of ways but I can't guess where they'll lean.

There are a number of important questioned not answered by you, among them:

- Are mounts allowed?
- Is, say, a pack of trained dogs allowed?
- Is Level Adjustment allowed?

[Snowbluff]

With it being lvl 4, won't sleep and colour spray essentially dominate the field?
I feel like 1 lvl in wizard is sufficient.
1 wiz, 2 pally for cha to saves, maybe fighter for Improved Init.
bam.

Sorc would be better here. Less MAD for the Cha to saves.

[emeraldstreak]

With it being lvl 4, won't sleep and colour spray essentially dominate the field?
I feel like 1 lvl in wizard is sufficient.
1 wiz, 2 pally for cha to saves, maybe fighter for Improved Init.
bam.


Sorc would be better here. Less MAD for the Cha to saves.

You don't want to use Sleep's 1 round cast in arenas, at best people will break LoE and at worst kill you.

Regular Color Spray is casually countered by Silence because it has a bigger range. Obviously there are ways around it, but going simply Color Spray will still leave you vulnerable to anyone who can gain distance or sniping advantage. Also, just because it's Core only, it doesn't mean they won't allow ruling like the double damage from flying charges with piercing/slashing weapons. Knowing prebuff rules is vital here, and it'll also be nice to know at least some things about the maps (ie the characters never/always start close and in LoE).

By the way, are rules from Rules Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium used? Or is it Deluxe Core rules?

[skypse]

Someone mentioned using two paladins but I honestly think that team will get creamed by a wizard with a significantly higher initiative casting grease.

How hard can you optimize the grease DC? and even if you do, how hard will the rest of your 4lvl wizard be optimized? 2 level Barbie/2level Paladin (if not paladin straight ahead) can give you immense bonuses for first levels. Rage's STR bonus+hp+Will saves plus the fact that you can still use LoH since it is not a "spell" per say gives you an average of about 30-40 hp with 1(half level)+4 (charisma mod) SWIFT actions for 2d6 heal. Even if they can't charge on the wizards, they can still hold up long enough to take their asses down. If UC was available then 1 of them could be Divine Hunter archetype and even burst their sorry asses with a Composite Longbow 4/5 strength rating.

Also, if the wizards don't compliment grease with something else and the 4+1(cloak of resistance) reflex save doesn't help them, they can always use god damn physics. e.g.

-Wizard casts grease on 10ft square
-I LITTERALLY jump on the greased area and slide across it on my back (thus you don't need to roll for acrobatics or anything. You are already on the floor).
-Wizard [...]



Sorc would be better here. Less MAD for the Cha to saves.

Sorc wouldn't be better than a wizard. They have less spells at that point and they will need to invest hard on wands and scrolls to be competitive.

[Feint's End]

How hard can you optimize the grease DC? and even if you do, how hard will the rest of your 4lvl wizard be optimized? 2 level Barbie/2level Paladin (if not paladin straight ahead) can give you immense bonuses for first levels. Rage's STR bonus+hp+Will saves plus the fact that you can still use LoH since it is not a "spell" per say gives you an average of about 30-40 hp with 1(half level)+4 (charisma mod) SWIFT actions for 2d6 heal. Even if they can't charge on the wizards, they can still hold up long enough to take their asses down. If UC was available then 1 of them could be Divine Hunter archetype and even burst their sorry asses with a Composite Longbow 4/5 strength rating.

Also, if the wizards don't compliment grease with something else and the 4+1(cloak of resistance) reflex save doesn't help them, they can always use god damn physics. e.g.

-Wizard casts grease on 10ft square
-I LITTERALLY jump on the greased area and slide across it on my back (thus you don't need to roll for acrobatics or anything. You are already on the floor).
-Wizard [...]




Sorc wouldn't be better than a wizard. They have less spells at that point and they will need to invest hard on wands and scrolls to be competitive.

He is talking about d&d and not pathfinder and in d&d core paladins suck pretty hard.

How about a halfling barbarian riding some mobile mount with a lance. With 16 base strength, raging, charging and full pa you could hit for +8 with an average of 39 damage (+1 weapon and medium two handed lance), which is enough to oneshot fighters with 16 con. Mount can attack too of course. Maybe go 2 levels fighter for 2 additional feats. I'd pick improved initiative, mounted combat, power attack and .... dunno ... cleave? would be hilarious if they stand next to each other. Dodge or weaponfocus are also legit at this level.

Glitter dust is hefty. Mirror images is the best defensive buff at this level. So a wizard second?

Both should have improved initiative of course.

Another way to get kicked out of the tournament (though it should be OK by raw): -be a druid
-have a riding dog as your cohort
-max handle animal
-spend all your money on riding dogs
-See as 10 riding dogs kill any enemy
-????
-Win

Maybe add a cleric with some cc for the second one (so you can take down people with levitate). Also He can heal your dogs during resting.

Edit again: now that I think about it. Buy 20 riding dogs so you have some fresh ones for the following rounds (only need approximately 10 to win a match). Leaves you with 2000+ gold. Buy a +1 armor and +1 cloak of resistance and you should be finde. Maybe a Wand of cure light wounds so you can heal up during resting.

[emeraldstreak]

He is talking about d&d and not pathfinder and in d&d core paladins suck pretty hard.

How about a halfling barbarian riding some mobile mount with a lance. With 16 base strength, raging, charging and full pa you could hit for +8 with an average of 39 damage (+1 weapon and medium two handed lance), which is enough to oneshot fighters with 16 con. Mount can attack too of course. Maybe go 2 levels fighter for 2 additional feats. I'd pick improved initiative, mounted combat, power attack and .... dunno ... cleave? would be hilarious if they stand next to each other. Dodge or weaponfocus are also legit at this level.

Glitter dust is hefty. Mirror images is the best defensive buff at this level. So a wizard second?

Both should have improved initiative of course.

Another way to get kicked out of the tournament (though it should be OK by raw): -be a druid
-have a riding dog as your cohort
-max handle animal
-spend all your money on riding dogs
-See as 10 riding dogs kill any enemy
-????
-Win

Maybe add a cleric with some cc for the second one (so you can take down people with levitate). Also He can heal your dogs during resting.

Edit again: now that I think about it. Buy 20 riding dogs so you have some fresh ones for the following rounds (only need approximately 10 to win a match). Leaves you with 2000+ gold. Buy a +1 armor and +1 cloak of resistance and you should be finde. Maybe a Wand of cure light wounds so you can heal up during resting.

barb/palas also have alignment issues in core

a charger may have a place in the lineup but there are many ways to shutdown one.

dogs can be useful but dont overestimate them. good core gishes will fly with reach. also expect mage armor/shield/troglodyte nat. armor/others from them for 30ish AC and not being hittable outside nat. 20 not only by dogs but also, say, a +8 charger.

[Feint's End]

barb/palas also have alignment issues in core

a charger may have a place in the lineup but there are many ways to shutdown one.

dogs can be useful but dont overestimate them. good core gishes will fly with reach. also expect mage armor/shield/troglodyte nat. armor/others from them for 30ish AC and not being hittable outside nat. 20 not only by dogs but also, say, a +8 charger.

We are talking level 4 though where the only reasonable ways to get out of reach are spider climb and leviate. And this is exactly why we have a second character.

It depends all on the expected op level of the enemies but I tend to think they are not super high op as are probably 95% of all players. Meaning they will probably have at least one melee or someone who doesn't have access to those defenses.

Also you still are a 4th level druid at the end of the day so still a full caster.

Edit: I agree on the alter self + defensive buffs though. Might need a save or die for those.

[emeraldstreak]

We are talking level 4 though where the only reasonable ways to get out of reach are spider climb and leviate. And this is exactly why we have a second character.

It depends all on the expected op level of the enemies but I tend to think they are not super high op as are probably 95% of all players. Meaning they will probably have at least one melee or someone who doesn't have access to those defenses.

Also you still are a 4th level druid at the end of the day so still a full caster.

Edit: I agree on the alter self + defensive buffs though. Might need a save or die for those.

OP says lvl 4, but allowed consumables of caster lvl 5, so expect all kinds of level 3 spells. My guess is they limited the character level to help sorcerers.

[Cler1c]

Wow you guys are beyond awesome! :D Rich has really gathered the best DnD crew in the world here. ^^

Sorry for returning a post this late I have been busy the entire day without access to a PC and I'm going to bed as well right now (didn't stop working) so this is the last thing I'll do before going to rest.

As it seems the best thing to do would be a cleric/combo with magic domains and a druid, or a paladin, or a barbarian. Many of you have voted or proposed a wizard but I would rather have a melee class than another caster.

Some of you have given extremely detailed descriptions of even their characters for that I am extremely thankful. We only have around 32 hours left to send our characters for the tournament so if we pick some of your premades here I'll let you know how we did with them. :)

All in all, the amount of responses is beyond my best wishes so once again thank you so much friends! :D I just hope no one from the other teams is going through these forums and grabbing ideas for themselves hehe. ^^

P.s. One last question please if you don't mind - What to do with grease from the opposite team? (I believe it will be one of the most used spells in tournament).
P.s.s Mounts are allowed.

Standing in your debt, cordially
Tom
aka
Cler1c
of the Midnight Squadron

[skypse]

P.s. One last question please if you don't mind - What to do with grease from the opposite team? (I believe it will be one of the most used spells in tournament).
P.s.s Mounts are allowed.


I checked this on D&D wiki since I am only familiar with PF material but I didn't see any changes so it should be the same. Grease affects a 10-ft square so just stay away from those 10ft. If they use it right on you, then it is all about initiatives. If they use it before you, they still need to get closer in order to benefit from the AoO when you stand up so if you have a good positioning with your teamate, or he has a reach weapon he can keep them away. Standing up is a move action and a 10 Acrobatics DC to stand is not that hard to roll. If noone has a reach weapon, you can always use a ready action as a counter saying that you ready X spell or X ability if the enemy comes near you and try to attack you while you are flat-footed. Ultimatelly, it all depends on how big the arena will be. If it is a 50x50 square with no obstacles, grease might not be as useful as it sounds.

Also, consider taking Elves/Half-Elves as a race for the sleep immunity and the free +2 on enchantment effects.

[emeraldstreak]

Sleep is not a threat, it's too slow to cast. Moreover, Deep Dwarves have +3 vs all magic.

Cler1c, any info on pre-buffing rules?

[skypse]

Sleep is not a threat, it's too slow to cast. Moreover, Deep Dwarves have +3 vs all magic.

Cler1c, any info on pre-buffing rules?

3/3.5 is soooooo freaking chaotic. How do you keep up with all those rules? Dwarves also have SR (at least in PF) but they have slower movespeed so they might not be that good of a choise.

[Sir Chuckles]

I checked this on D&D wiki since I am only familiar with PF material but I didn't see any changes so it should be the same. Grease affects a 10-ft square so just stay away from those 10ft. If they use it right on you, then it is all about initiatives. If they use it before you, they still need to get closer in order to benefit from the AoO when you stand up so if you have a good positioning with your teamate, or he has a reach weapon he can keep them away. Standing up is a move action and a 10 Acrobatics DC to stand is not that hard to roll. If noone has a reach weapon, you can always use a ready action as a counter saying that you ready X spell or X ability if the enemy comes near you and try to attack you while you are flat-footed. Ultimatelly, it all depends on how big the arena will be. If it is a 50x50 square with no obstacles, grease might not be as useful as it sounds.

Also, consider taking Elves/Half-Elves as a race for the sleep immunity and the free +2 on enchantment effects.

Don't use the D&D wiki or any of it's iteratives, as they're often incorrect and poorly organized.
Use the d20srd.

In 3.5, it's a DC10 Balance check. Half-Elf is an awful choice in 3.5, Elves less so, but I don't think Elven Generalist is on the table.


3/3.5 is soooooo freaking chaotic. How do you keep up with all those rules? Dwarves also have SR (at least in PF) but they have slower movespeed so they might not be that good of a choise.

It's easier than one would think. 3.5 Dwarves do not have SR, though they maintain the slower movement speed. Depending on the arena, that could be a non issue.
...you should probably double-check your advice before giving it. In case it's wrong.


Sleep is not a threat, it's too slow to cast. Moreover, Deep Dwarves have +3 vs all magic.

Cler1c, any info on pre-buffing rules?

Sleep can be a threat, given it's range. Though that depends on the arena.

Post #3, bro.

[skypse]

Don't use the D&D wiki or any of it's iteratives, as they're often incorrect and poorly organized.
Use the d20srd.

In 3.5, it's a DC10 Balance check. Half-Elf is an awful choice in 3.5, Elves less so, but I don't think Elven Generalist is on the table.



It's easier than one would think. 3.5 Dwarves do not have SR, though they maintain the slower movement speed. Depending on the arena, that could be a non issue.
...you should probably double-check your advice before giving it. In case it's wrong.



Sleep can be a threat, given it's range. Though that depends on the arena.

Post #3, bro.

Aaaaand this is where I should stop. I am past the "non-helpful" phase and right into the "messing up the things worse" phase. Sorry for any disturbance I caused, I really meant well. I hate 3.5 and all its chaotic variation and rules. :D I will check on the post without replying just to see how things with the tournament will go. I really wish you all the luck in the world my friend. Again my apologies for any confusion I might have caused.

[emeraldstreak]

3/3.5 is soooooo freaking chaotic. How do you keep up with all those rules? Dwarves also have SR (at least in PF) but they have slower movespeed so they might not be that good of a choise.

I don't, I'm retired.

[emeraldstreak]

Sleep can be a threat, given it's range.


No, it cannot, at least not from its regular 1 round cast. Save-or-suck spells of 1 round casting will always be: interrupted/outranged/broken Line-of-Effect in arenas.

On another note I wanted to list the full gish AC for lvl 4 Core. It's in the line of:

10: base
1: size (there's plenty of good Small races)
7: Dexterity, base 18+2 racial+4 Cat's Grace
4: Cover from mount, Ride check 15
1: Dodge from Haste
2: Deflection from Shield of Fate or Protection from Appropriate Alignment
6: Monk Wisdom 18+4 Owl's Wisdom
2: 1size+1 Dex - Reduce Person (not recommended though)
1: Dodge feat (again, not necessarily recommended for Core builds)

so far up to 34 touch AC. Fighting Defensively (with Tumble 5 ranks) or Total Defense add 3/6 more.

6: Natural armor from Alter Selfing into Troglodyte
2: Enhancement natural armor from Barkskin
4: Mage Armor
4: Shield
1+: Natural Armor stackable MM feat (again, not recommended)

And now we are at 50ish for regular AC. There are also Entropic Shield, Blur, and Displacement for miss chance if armor is not enough for you.


Unfortunately, the format of the arena (no-prebuffs) is playing in the hands of the participants with previous experience with the maps. And we don't have any, so we can't know if it'll be possible to fall back, hide, and buff some. I still think that spells of duration 8+ hours must be allowed as they are the same as wearing tiring armor without being fatigued.

Under these circumstances it's best to default for Improved Initiative and high Dexterity. Winning Initiative will be crucial. I'd consider dropping the Magic domain (which's taken for consumable activation buffing anyway) for the Luck domain, even one reroll could be decisive.

Also, all the adult flying mounts in the MM cost at least 3,000gp so I guess there won't be flying mounts. Out of the LA races, the Grimlock is a possible pick for alterselfing in flying (Gargoyle) or Large monstrous humanoid, but IMO the loss of class levels isn't worth it at all. It seems the arena will be more casual, with humanoids charging/blasting at Initiative if in range, or frantically falling back and casting Invisibility and Fly if not in attack range at start. Some maps may be dark dungeon/caves; and it's also possible some teams will open with Deeper Darkness/Silence.

PS. Take a peak at the Ready Action discussion thread active at the moment. Ready Action can make or break in arenas.

[Gwendol]

Agreed from experience that a cleric is the class of choice at this level. Travel is a given domain choice, with the other being chosen from a small sub-set that includes Luck, Magic, Trickery.