Never rolled a straight up rogue!

[Reprimand]

So I'm joining a game where everyone decided to roll a character based on a fire emblem character.

I picked Matthew who is a spy/thief and later assassin.

I wanted this character to be pretty much a straight rogue/fighter or martial prc

I'm trying to avoid any book of nine swords stuff or anything like that.

If I can work in a level of assassin/avenger that would be worth bonus points.

The main prcs I wanted to work with were like nightsong enforcer, assassin/avenger, and maybe something like guild thief though I don't know how that works in 3.5

I wanted to focus on a short sword for my main weapon so no great swords or anything like that.

I've never rolled a rogue without going gish or at least including caster levels so this is pretty new territory for me ideas or advantages/disadvantages for each capstone/level/class would be a wonderful help.

EDIT: does it seem Ironic that I need help with rolling a rogue but not say a wizard or a psion?

[Rebel7284]

The is always Daring Outlaw (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/daring-outlaw--508/) builds for getting Rogue with (almost) full BAB and full sneak attack.

Is there a particular reason you don't want Tome of Battle? There are a number of effective and thematic things you can do with it. For example, taking Shadow Blade feat for Dex to damage or that shadow hand stance that gives 2d6 sneak attack.

Also, Factotum is known to be a better Rogue, but it does have a few spells (however, if you take Assassin, you have spells anyway...)

Some other things you may find useful:
Hit and Run Fighter alternative class feature trades heavy armor for Dex to Damage against flat footed opponents. Quite nice for a one level dip!
Darkstalker Feat.
Ring of the Darkhidden.

[Reprimand]

The group has a rule that we can only use books we collectively own, no one in my group owns tome of battle. Seems wierd eh?

I only want one level in assassin for the death attack ability for flavor reasons I could probably get my DM to trade the minor casting for a feat.

I didn't want to take daring outlaw because I wasn't planning on going into swashbuckler though in terms of abilities/rules it would probably fit, I would think more like rogue X/ Nightsong enforcer 4/ Assassin 1 and just finish off in rogue or another fitting prc.

Probably not optimal persay but I don't really know how to build a rogue anyway.

EDIT: More input would deffinately be welcome

[PaucaTerrorem]

Have to second swashbuckler. 3 levels gives weapon finesse and INT to damage with finessable weapons. Granted it's only 4 skill points but with high INT that's workable.

[Extra Anchovies]

Seconding the Daring Outlaw suggestion. The two best ways to build a rogue, IMO, are Swift Ambusher (for piles of bonus damage; best with pounce) or Daring Outlaw (for a melee frontliner who really likes getting those flanking bonuses).

[Sir Chuckles]

Fourthing the Daring Outlaw, on the basis of choosing Matthew.
While not the perfect representation, it's as close as you're going to get while still being competent. Matthew's combat prowess was...subpar. You could say that, mechanics-wise, you're going through FE7-8-13 and their Rogues. Colm is considered nigh-God tier (which isn't actually saying much for FE8) and Gaius fits closer to Daring Outlaw and is pretty sweet on the frontlines. You might be able to fit in Nightsong Enforcer, though it's somewhat bleh. Though there's likely a better way of representing the Death Attack than the alignment-locked Assassin.

Don't forget your UMD ranks and a fancy-lookin' Wand of Knock.

[Telonius]

Some fairly standard Rogue-ish advice:
Rogue19/Practically Anything Else1 is more powerful than Rogue20.
Use Magic Device is awesome.
If you have Champions of Ruin available, the Craven feat will be extremely nice. It's probably the single most important feat for any Rogue.
If you have Lords of Madness, the Darkstalker feat will help you sneak around when you get to higher levels, and start running into things with blindsense and the like.
If Magic Item Compendium is there, check out some of the weapon crystals. They will help you sneak attack some things that are usually immune (like Undead).
Two-Weapon Fighting is nice, but Improved and Greater bump up against diminishing returns pretty quickly. Additional attacks are no good if they don't ever hit, and Rogues are feat-starved.

[Reprimand]

Fourthing the Daring Outlaw, on the basis of choosing Matthew.
While not the perfect representation, it's as close as you're going to get while still being competent. Matthew's combat prowess was...subpar. You could say that, mechanics-wise, you're going through FE7-8-13 and their Rogues. Colm is considered nigh-God tier (which isn't actually saying much for FE8) and Gaius fits closer to Daring Outlaw and is pretty sweet on the frontlines. You might be able to fit in Nightsong Enforcer, though it's somewhat bleh. Though there's likely a better way of representing the Death Attack than the alignment-locked Assassin.

Don't forget your UMD ranks and a fancy-lookin' Wand of Knock.

I soloed the fire dragon endgame with just using Matthew and the regal blade and one set of elixir he was a top tier unit for the whole game.

But the pouncer build doesn't sound like a bad idea and it sounds more like the way I used Matthew to solo hector Hardmode.''

What would a good example be of piling on huge amounts of damage on a pounce, lets rule out battle jump and martial maneuvers right now though.

[Sir Chuckles]

I soloed the fire dragon endgame with just using Matthew and the regal blade and one set of elixir he was a top tier unit for the whole game.

But the pouncer build doesn't sound like a bad idea and it sounds more like the way I used Matthew to solo hector Hardmode.''

What would a good example be of piling on huge amounts of damage on a pounce, lets rule out battle jump and martial maneuvers right now though.

RNG is RNG, sometimes a supposed less than stellar character ends up godlike. Give that elixir to just about anyone else and RNG can win any fight for you, which is more the natural of Fire Emblem than anything. Dancer!Olivia soloing Anna in FE13 doesn't make her any better or worse. Matthew isn't top tier, but he's no Wallace, more a Guy. His main appeal is the ability to steal, plus the Silver Card. These two things are what make many consider him to be important, not his combat ability. He's not shabby in that end, especially after a fell contract.

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement) a handy dandy list of ways to get pounce.
Unfortunately, the normal ways of turning things into meat pudding via pounce aren't wholly Swashbuckler-centric. There's a reason the word "Pouncebarian" is a thing.

[Gwendol]

The point here is that Daring Outlaw shores up a few rogue weaknesses: BAB and hitpoints by giving INT to damage (mainly) and a bonus feat. Compared with a fighter dip you get to stack levels for determining SA dice, which is key. The other issue is the ability to strike a lot: TWF therefore can be viable.
Finally, as has been suggested: you also want the Craven feat, as well as Penetrating strike which helps deal SA damage to creatures normally immune under certain circumstances.

A rogue wants HiPS, to be able to strike from hiding, as well as be able to evade the dreaded retaliation if necessary. The Dark creature template can help with that, but there are other ways.

[Reprimand]

RNG is RNG, sometimes a supposed less than stellar character ends up godlike. Give that elixir to just about anyone else and RNG can win any fight for you, which is more the natural of Fire Emblem than anything. Dancer!Olivia soloing Anna in FE13 doesn't make her any better or worse. Matthew isn't top tier, but he's no Wallace, more a Guy. His main appeal is the ability to steal, plus the Silver Card. These two things are what make many consider him to be important, not his combat ability. He's not shabby in that end, especially after a fell contract.

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement) a handy dandy list of ways to get pounce.
Unfortunately, the normal ways of turning things into meat pudding via pounce aren't wholly Swashbuckler-centric. There's a reason the word "Pouncebarian" is a thing.

Matthew is the only assassin that can get through the final chapter without wasting regal blade and kill a 120hp monster that can do almost his entire healthbar each attack (which is why you need the elixir, also mind you with is without a healer or any other units being used) even AFTER heavy RNG abuse. Legalt and jaffar are almost worthless next to a properly trained matthew (legalt should only ever be used to replace matthew has a thief since you'll probably want to premote matthew to an assassin. Since he can get both an anima support and fire support they increase his damage and crit chance by quite a bit. Not to mention you can abuse rng to get the stats you want anyway by using the H/L method. You can't really compare FE13 to this situation either because you can infinintly respec to get perfect stats and playing on insanity+ I assure you that's still impossible.

Anyway what I was actually looking for were not ways to get pounce but rather how to improve on a stacking lots of extra damage on lots of attacks like adding int to damage via swashbuckler rather than stacking Sneak attack.

[Telonius]

I think you should consider exactly how much each way of damage stacking might contribute. For stacking Int to damage, you'll probably be getting (at most) +5 or 6 damage per hit, but it works all the time on anything not immune to Sneak Attacks. If you're stacking sneak attack, you'll be getting +3.5 damage (on average) per sneak die, but only when the target meets the Sneak Attack criteria.

Stacking on additional damage whenever you can, is certainly a great idea; that's the point of Craven. And obviously, if you can get multiple sources at once, that's a great thing. But if it comes down to a choice between two options, make sure you know which one is giving you more of a benefit.

[gorfnab]

Try this:
Swashbuckler 3
Fighter 3 - Sneak Attack ACF (UA), Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DoTU)
Barbarian 1 or 2 - Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), Spiritual Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Wolf Totem ACF (UA, if going 2 levels)
Rogue 13 or 12 - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS), Feat ACF (UA)

The build itself would not necessarily be in this order, probably want a level of Feat Rogue first for skill points. Basically the way this build works is a loose interpretation of Daring Outlaw. You have sneak attack (albeit from the Fighter ACF) and you have Rogue levels and Swashbuckler levels. This build gives you 16+ BAB, 10d6 sneak attack, and 7 bonus fighter feats.
Other ACFs to add would be: Zhentarim Fighter ACF (CoV), City Brawler Barbarian ACF (Drag #349)

Also this handbook may also provide some other info:
Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)