What prestige classes have the most traction?

[Gnorman]

Playgrounders,

I have a relatively simple question for you. What prestige classes have the most traction, seem to fit D&D the best, etc? What classes just scream "archetypical" to you, and why? I'll put forth one example: the Assassin. Not only does the Assassin have a rich history within D&D itself, but the concept of a poison-using, pseudo-magical stalker is one that has pervaded fantastical settings for decades, if not centuries.

What are your top candidates?

[(Un)Inspired]

Even though it's execution is terrible the eldritch knight is an important fantasy archetype.

[ArqArturo]

I think the Frenzied Berserker is good in its simplicity: Get angry, smash things. Rinse and repeat until the Wizard casts Calm Emotions.

[Gnorman]

I think the Frenzied Berserker is good in its simplicity: Get angry, smash things. Rinse and repeat until the Wizard casts Calm Emotions.

My concern with FB is that it just doesn't really do anything differently than the standard barbarian, and so doesn't represent anything new, design-wise.

[The Glyphstone]

As bland as it is, Archmage is basically Wizard/Sorcerer II: Wizard/Sorcerer Harder - but the concept of a arch-mage (as opposed to simply a powerful mage) is pretty enduring.

Assassin is the most iconic rogue-aligned PrC.

Frenzied Berserker turns the central feature of a Barbarian up to 11. Like the Archmage, it's Base Class II: Base Class Harder, though.

Monk...Drunken Master is probably the closest thing to an iconic/symbolic PrC.

Bard - I want to say Seeker of the Song, taking its unique 'feature' up to 11 like FB does for barbarian.

Not sure about Fighter, Paladin, Druid, Ranger, or Cleric.

[ArqArturo]

My concern with FB is that it just doesn't really do anything differently than the standard barbarian, and so doesn't represent anything new, design-wise.

That is true, it's just an angrier (and more unstable) Barbarian, yet it is simple.

Now, a PrC that I think fits well with the 'Mysteriously powerful spellcaster" is the Druidic Heirophant, because I think it fills the niche of the powerful hedge mage. And yes, the common wizard or druid can fill this role, especially the druid, but still, a lightning bolt via a angry charging dire bear is awesome :smallsmile:.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For Archer rangers I'd say that Order of the Bow Initiate would be the sequel, even if it isn't great (though I hear it was pretty badass back in 3.0), for TWF.... Tempest perhaps?

[Gnorman]

Maybe a refinement of the question will be helpful:

If you could pick only three prestige classes for each core base class, what would you keep around?

[Feint's End]

Maybe a refinement of the question will be helpful:

If you could pick only three prestige classes for each core base class, what would you keep around?

Why do we have to stick to core? Quite a few of us (me included) feel out of core classes can be very iconic too.

[(Un)Inspired]

Maybe a refinement of the question will be helpful:

If you could pick only three prestige classes for each core base class, what would you keep around?

Ok if that's what we're shooting for then for the Rogue I would keep the Assassin, the Chameleon, and the Exemplar. I think that they cover the three classic rogue archetypes even though they spill out of core.

The Assassin fits the archetype of the merciless killer that uses stealth and espionage to take out its victims.

The Chameleon fits the archetype of the polymath that has dabbled in every single arena of adventuring.

The Exemplar fits the archetype of the skill monkey, the person that's train in an incredible breadth of skills and is the best at using them.

[AvatarVecna]

Just a few of my favorite iconic PrCs.:smallbiggrin:
The perfect combination of skillful backtabbing and subtle magicks, the Arcane Trickster is a wonderful D&D staple.

It's one thing to simply be a powerful wizard; only the select few are so great as to be able to rightfully claim to be an Archmage; this true master of arcane magic breaks the rules of magic even more than their more common brethren.

Unarmored swordmasters are a common staple of swashbuckling fantasy, and the Duelist fits that concept perfectly.

While terrible for PCs, the Dwarven Defender is perfect for the elite NPCs of a dwarven army, and it encompasses everything that dwarves are.

How many times have you heard "The head cultist summons a great demon"? The Thaumaturgist is the quintessential master of summoning, and don't you forget it.I don't know if it counts as a classic, but I thought Beastmaster was a goo-bad movie; this PrC captures the concept perfectly, and it's a wonderful fantasy idea.

You want a prestige class that perfectly captures the feel of its concept while keeping relatively powerful and relevant? Look no further than the Dread Pirate!

Some rogues can find and disable traps; if they focus, and train hard enough, they can someday become a Dungeon Delver, the ultimate master of proper dungeoneering.

Exemplar: for when "All the skills!" just isn't enough.

Let's turn the druidic shapeshifting up to 11 with the Master of Many Forms; this wonderful class eventually let's you shapeshift into...just about anything!

The Spymaster is a common enough archetype in fictional works, and it has its place in the high-magic fantasy of D&D.

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Thief-Acrobat was one of the first prestige classes in D&D; not in 3.5, of course, but in the game as a whole.If you're looking to make a wizard who's part of an arcane guild, look no further than the Mage of the Arcane Order; it's a wondeful way to put together a wizard that works well with other wizards.

So many stories feature a magical manipulator that can take over your mind and turn you into their puppet; nothing masters this concept anywhere near as fully as the Mindbender does...well, except for Thrallherd (from XPH).

Wild Mage. Do I even need to explain why this makes sense?Have no fear, the Divine Crusader is here! This divine champion is the answer to your prayers, and will drive back their deity's foes with a fervor that a paladin would be hard-pressed to match.

When you need to turn a crowd to your religious cause, there's nothing more effective than a well-spoken Evangelist.

Exorcist joke. Specifically, a Sacred Exorcist: this is a common fantasy staple, a great idea for a PrC, and it's well executed.

Any simple cleric can pick up a mace and shield and claim to be battle ready. Even if they've got a slew of buff spells at the ready, they'll never be the combatant that the Warpriest is.
The Abjurant Championis the true gish that can't be matched: this is the true master of combining swords and sorcery.

If the Mindbender was the logical extension of the enchantment specialist, the Unseen Seer is the logical extension of the divination specialist: honestly, they're almost like magical spies; it's awesome.The Dervish has had many tributes from edition to edtion, whether feats, class options, or (as is the case here) a prestige class. The dual-scimitar wielder is a staple of fantasy swordfighting, and is unlikely to leave any time soon.

A barbarian is a warrior who can tap into his anger to become more powerful during combat; a Frenzied Berserker is a warrior who's primal fury is so powerful that it literally possesses him, using him like a puppet as it indiscriminately kills and destroys. HULK SMASH!!!!!

Fighting with thrown weapons is an interesting style that has made many appearances throughout literature and film; the Master Thrower is a simple, 5 level PrC that encompasses everything that a true master of the style is capable of.

The Mindspy is a psychic who's telepathic powers are so refined that they employ them in weapon combat, often to great effect. Hi, River Tam!

Both the Drunken Master and the Tattoed Monk advance the base class well, and are common staples of martial arts in fictional works.

[Gnorman]

Why do we have to stick to core? Quite a few of us (me included) feel out of core classes can be very iconic too.

No reason, just the first thing that popped into my head. Feel free to ignore it as you see fit!

[Fax Celestis]

Ok if that's what we're shooting for then for the Rogue I would keep the Assassin, the Chameleon, and the Exemplar. I think that they cover the three classic rogue archetypes even though they spill out of core.

The Assassin fits the archetype of the merciless killer that uses stealth and espionage to take out its victims.

The Chameleon fits the archetype of the polymath that has dabbled in every single arena of adventuring.

The Exemplar fits the archetype of the skill monkey, the person that's train in an incredible breadth of skills and is the best at using them.

I'd actually keep Exemplar as an unattached PrC and drop Thief-Acrobat in its place for rogue.

For the rest:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Bear Warrior, Runescarred Berserker

Bard: Lyric Thaumaturge, Loremaster, Virtuoso

Cleric: Ordained Champion, Sovereign Speaker, Contemplative

Druid: Holt Warden, Master of Many Forms, and...I dunno. Earth Dreamer? Stonespeaker Guardian if you took off the silly racial prereq?

Fighter: War Mind, Exotic Weapon Master, Kensai

Monk: Fist of Zuoken, Fist of the Forest, Tattooed Monk

Paladin: Grey Guard, Knight of the Raven, Anointed Champion

Sorcerer: Dracolexi, War Weaver, Ruathar

Wizard: Paragnostic Apostle, Wyrm Wizard, Mage of the Arcane Order

[(Un)Inspired]

I'd actually keep Exemplar as an unattached PrC and drop Thief-Acrobat in its place for rogue.

For the rest:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Bear Warrior, Runescarred Berserker

Bard: Lyric Thaumaturge, Loremaster, Virtuoso

Cleric: Ordained Champion, Sovereign Speaker, Contemplative

Druid: Holt Warden, Master of Many Forms, and...I dunno. Earth Dreamer? Stonespeaker Guardian if you took off the silly racial prereq?

Fighter: War Mind, Exotic Weapon Master, Kensai

Monk: Fist of Zuoken, Fist of the Forest, Tattooed Monk

Paladin: Grey Guard, Knight of the Raven, Anointed Champion

Sorcerer: Dracolexi, War Weaver, Ruathar

Wizard: Paragnostic Apostle, Wyrm Wizard, Mage of the Arcane Order

I like a lot of what you've got here but I would drop Lyric Thaumaturge and replace it with Sublime Chord for Bards.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't like Sublime Cord because it's "I want to be a sorcerer" for bards.

[(Un)Inspired]

I don't like Sublime Cord because it's "I want to be a sorcerer" for bards.

I think of it as the "I'm really maximizing the Spellcasting" side of being a bard. It's music synergies pretty well with it's casting so it's not like you're giving up bard flavor.

[eggynack]

Druid: Holt Warden, Master of Many Forms, and...I dunno. Earth Dreamer? Stonespeaker Guardian if you took off the silly racial prereq?
I hate typing it out, but it's possible that the third iconic druid prestige class is blighter. The destroyer of all nature shtick is very cool, and attracts people like crazy despite the power drop. Beastmaster also, as has been mentioned.

[Psyren]

I think of it as the "I'm really maximizing the Spellcasting" side of being a bard. It's music synergies pretty well with it's casting so it's not like you're giving up bard flavor.

I don't think they need 9th-level spells for any reason. Maybe a handful of thematic effects like Dominate Monster could be discounted for them, and you open up their spell list to include more evocations and conjurations and the like, but I agree with Fax - Sublime Chord just turned them into singing sorcerers.

[OldTrees1]

Arcane Trickster has a lot of Traction (even if I use Silver Key as a replacement in 3.5).

Basically it is the Thief that has access to magical assistance (Mage Hand skill use, Invisibility, Illusions, ...).

[Fax Celestis]

Arcane Trickster has a lot of Traction (even if I use Silver Key as a replacement in 3.5).

Basically it is the Thief that has access to magical assistance (Mage Hand skill use, Invisibility, Illusions, ...).

Oh man, I love Silver Key, especially since you can get in at 4th level.

[Thiyr]

I'd actually keep Exemplar as an unattached PrC and drop Thief-Acrobat in its place for rogue.

For the rest:

Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Bear Warrior, Runescarred Berserker

Bard: Lyric Thaumaturge, Loremaster, Virtuoso

Cleric: Ordained Champion, Sovereign Speaker, Contemplative

Druid: Holt Warden, Master of Many Forms, and...I dunno. Earth Dreamer? Stonespeaker Guardian if you took off the silly racial prereq?

Fighter: War Mind, Exotic Weapon Master, Kensai

Monk: Fist of Zuoken, Fist of the Forest, Tattooed Monk

Paladin: Grey Guard, Knight of the Raven, Anointed Champion

Sorcerer: Dracolexi, War Weaver, Ruathar

Wizard: Paragnostic Apostle, Wyrm Wizard, Mage of the Arcane Order

I'm...kinda wonderin' on the Ruathar on Sorc. Always felt more ranger-y for me. (Also, no ranger?) Similar to the blighter, I'd personally replace it with something like Blood Magus. Sure, it's not exactly a great class, but the ties between blood and magical power are just plain iconic, and it fits well for the sorc's whole "inborn magic" dealie.

[Marlowe]

Sublime Chord has annoying prerequisites that mess up your skill-monkey status in early levels, doesn't come on line until level 10, and costs you reflex saves, BAB and skill points. So no, I don't think it's "keeping the Bardic Flavour". If I want to play a sorceror I'll play one.

Lyric Thaumaturge, on the other hand, is available from level 7, keeps her two-good saves and medium BAB chassis, and requires some skills and a feat you should have anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm...kinda wonderin' on the Ruathar on Sorc. Always felt more ranger-y for me. (Also, no ranger?) Similar to the blighter, I'd personally replace it with something like Blood Magus. Sure, it's not exactly a great class, but the ties between blood and magical power are just plain iconic, and it fits well for the sorc's whole "inborn magic" dealie.

I knew I was forgetting someone. Ranger, hmmm... Horizon Walker, Dread Commando, Beast Heart Adept? Or Peregrine Runner?

[nedz]

For Archer rangers I'd say that Order of the Bow Initiate would be the sequel, even if it isn't great (though I hear it was pretty badass back in 3.0), for TWF.... Tempest perhaps?

Having played this combination I have to say that OBI is pretty awful. Ranger archery is all about loosing several arrows a round, as many as possible in fact. Nothing in the OBI class supports this. Now Scout/OBI might work better, but it's still not great.

[Thiyr]

Having played this combination I have to say that OBI is pretty awful. Ranger archery is all about loosing several arrows a round, as many as possible in fact. Nothing in the OBI class supports this. Now Scout/OBI might work better, but it's still not great.

Looking at the 3.0 version, it does look at least a bit better. Ranged sneak attack is okay but not great, but free attack when an ally takes an aoo 1/rd and free zen archery (plus stacking if you have it already) is nifty. Not astounding, but def -better-

[T.G. Oskar]

Maybe a refinement of the question will be helpful:

If you could pick only three prestige classes for each core base class, what would you keep around?

Oh goody: lists!

Barbarian: I'll agree with Fax and choose Frenzied Berserker (Rage+) and Runescarred Berserker (the Barbarian has gone a bit from "Conan-esque" to "Viking-esque", and this is the best example: also, it grants Barbarians some magic). I'd say Bear Warrior too, but I feel Animal Lord works slightly better, if only because it fits with the idea of a Totem animal. Honorable mention to Champion of Gwynharwyf for "Barbarian + Paladin" shenanigans.

Bard: Not so difficult here: Seeker of the Song (focus on singing), Sublime Chord (focus on spellcasting) and either Warchanter or Warrior Skald (boosts combat skill). Sadly, there's no slot for Virtuoso, which effectively represents all aspects of the Bard with some equality; in fact, I'd say the Virtuoso is an attempt to give people Bard skills, somewhat like the Ollam.

Cleric: While I'd like to quickly say "Radiant Servant of Pelor" for the healing focus, I'd say Combat Medic fills that archetype somewhat better. Bit of a loss on what else, tho; Ordained Champion works as a very focused war-priest, whereas Warpriest is a more general one (the first is better for crunch but it leaves a strong Paladin flavor in the mouth; the latter is more fluff-inclined but hilariously weak)

Druid: Another mention for Master of Many Forms (Wild Shape+), though I wouldn't ignore Nature's Warrior (in fact, if it weren't because both lose spellcasting, I'd make both a unified progression). While I prefer to make Ranger Animal Companions better, Druids are the "basis" in 3.5, and thus Beastmaster is tailored for them. As for spellcasting...hard choice, to be honest; I would have gone for Hierophant because of tradition, but 3.x really blew it (again, because they wanted to keep with tradition). Fluff-wise, I agree with Holt Warden. And strongly disagree with Planar Shepherd...

Fighter: Enough to cause a headache, since Fighters are mostly a blank state. I agree with Kensai, since it's a natural progression from Weapon Focus to enchanting said weapon; the only lament is that Kensai doesn't allow you to count as a Fighter of its Kensai level, or else you'd end up with Weapon Supremacy on your sweet Signature Weapon (plus, Power Surge is pretty awesome). I'd also agree with Exotic Weapon Master, but being a 5-level PrC it's not like it provides a lot.

Monk: Two words: Tattooed Monk. While you only get a few tattoos on your progression, the abilities granted are pretty nice; they let the Monk diversify a bit, and doesn't let them lose their power. Also agree on Psionic/Fist of Zuoken, since I find Psionics to be a natural adaptation to Monk abilities, and they certainly don't lose a lot. As for the final one...I'd venture to say Shadow Sun Ninja, if you want a Monk with maneuvers (though it'll most certainly overlap with Swordsage).

Paladin: How in heathenly tarnation haven't you mentioned Fist of Raziel!?!?!?!!? It screams "Paladin goes on the offensive"!! Crunch-wise, I find that Ordained Champion overlaps with Cleric on that one. Fluff-wise, I'd go for Defender of Sealtiel (for tanking reasons) and Hospitaler (for healing reasons). I wouldn't ignore Pious Templar either, since it's almost the same as a Paladin except without the mount and the nifty immunities.

Ranger: I find that Horizon Walker was designed for them (at least, they have the most synergy, or complements them). In terms of combat styles, Tempest works nicely for Two-Weapon specialists (even if it's a 5-level class), but Archery has it a bit more difficult: Arcane Archer sucks and they can't get into it, Order of the Bow Initiate also sucks, and...that's as much I can recall regarding Archery-focused classes. Very few PrCs deal with favored enemies, Beastmaster doesn't work as well with the Ranger's animal companion as it does with the Druid, and other than Stalker of Kharash, very few do well with spellcasting. Have a bit of an odd like for Combat Trapsmith, even if it doesn't advance spellcasting, but it grants a nice bit of flexibility.

Rogue: As someone else mentioned; Chameleon works to exemplify the flexibility a Rogue should have had (though it screams Factotum), Exemplar allows it to excel in terms of skill specialization, and Assassin works well to cover its combat effectiveness.

Sorcerer: The Sorcerer and the Wizard overlap a lot, so these are the choices that I find are unique to the Sorcerer, such as the Pact-Bound Adept that gains a lot of flexibility with spellcasting and all it requires is sacrificing a few spell slots. The Wild Mage, though utterly unpredictable, provides an unique way to play the class by relying on the unknown rather than on heritage. Exalted Arcanist adds the wealth of Sanctified Spells (which are pretty awesome) to the Sorcerer spell list, while Rainbow Servant adds the Cleric list; both make the Sorcerer interesting, albeit some other classes work better (the Warmage is a superb example of it). While Fax puts it on the Wizard, I'd say the Mage of the Arcane Order fits the Sorcerer better, if only because it grants the thing a Sorcerer lacks, which is flexibility.

Wizard: The Archmage was designed with the Wizard in mind. So does the Master Specialist, which does to the class what Red Wizard should have done (be a master at a specialized school). And...why not, Incantatrix to become the master of metamagic.

[Fax Celestis]

Oskar, Sorcerers can't get into MotAO. It requires prepared casting as a class feature.

I mean, my answers change somewhat if we look at prestige classes as 4e paragon paths and strip prereqs but bind them to a base class. There are some nifty classes saddled with terrible prereqs or burdened with weird class specificity.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oskar, Sorcerers can't get into MotAO. It requires prepared casting as a class feature.

Not even with the Arcane Preparation feat? It only says you have to prepare and cast 2nd level spells, and Arcane Preparation allows you to do so with spontaneous spellcasters. Granted; the feat is used to prepare spells with metamagic effects, but the prereqs of MotAO doesn't specify you have to prepare them as a class feature; just that you have to prepare them. That prevents entry via SLAs, but doesn't specifically bar entry via Arcane Preparation. After all, it's not like, say, Precocious Apprentice. Furthermore, the way the class is written, it actually considers spontaneous spellcasters (after all, a Wizard 3/Sorcerer X could enter just as easily).

[Gwendol]

Fochlucan Lyrist isn't mentioned yet? It's awkward to get into, but is unique enough. Should be listed for both bards and druids.

Cavalier is an interesting PrC for Fighters, I guess. Another vote for Dervish.

Cragtop archer and Deepwarden for Ranger.

[Marlowe]

Seriously, Frenzied Berserker? The class where it's only a matter of time before you murder your own party?:smalleek:

[AvatarVecna]

Seriously, Frenzied Berserker? The class where it's only a matter of time before you murder your own party?:smalleek:

There's plenty of ways to keep that from happening. As long as you've got a wand of Calm Emotions (or more hilariously, Grease), you'll be fine.

[Marlowe]

Assuming you get a chance to do that. A class that forces your party to take precautions against you murdering them in an uncontrollable rage is NOT fine.

[Esprit15]

Assuming you get a chance to do that. A class that forces your party to take precautions against you murdering them in an uncontrollable rage is NOT fine.

It's a risk versus reward question. Are you worth the risk to your party that you pose? I say it makes for interesting RP and interaction.

As for classes, I'm surprised Blackguard for Paladin was yet to be mentioned. Fallen champion of good is a pretty popular idea to run with.

[Psyren]

Are you worth the risk to your party that you pose?

Considering how many far better options there are for Barbarians out there, the obvious answer is no. Runescarred Berserker, Frostrager, Totem Rager, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Black Blood Cultist, Bear Warrior and Fist of the Forest are all much more powerful options, with the added bonus of not needing the party to quickly drop marbles before you decapitate one of them.

[Esprit15]

I thought we weren't referring to optimization, just classes that have thematic precedence. The nearly uncontrollable warrior who is as likely to kill a friend as an enemy when in a rage is a bit more classic than Champion of Unpronounceable.

[Marlowe]

I don't even see there being any question about it. All it does is add a few more numbers to your damage, which, since you're a Barbarian, are already going to be quite high enough if you're built in any way competently. It doesn't let you fly, walk up walls, see invisible things or add anything to your bag of tricks. You're still just an angry guy that hits things with an axe. And now you're an angry guy who is a constant menace to your own party.

As for "interesting interaction" is concerned, how interesting can it be to have nobody who wants to adventure with you?

EDIT: Wait a minute: First you were talking about "risk vs reward" and now you're saying it's all about thematics?:smallconfused:

[Esprit15]

I was addressing the comment someone else made, while also trying to move discussion back to the original topic. If we want to rag on classes being badly designed, there's another thread for that just a few threads down.

[Marlowe]

Where Frenzied Berzerker has a mention, I see.

I think when somebody lists a PrC as a classic when it is, in fact, a well known death trap frequently banned for being just that it is perhaps an oddity worthy of commenting on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

One more comment on FB before it's dropped;

A good optimizer can make the risk of attacking an ally vanishingly slim, slim enough there's a good chance it won't actually happen. There are also ways to eliminate the threat entirely. That said, a FB gets the same kind of numbers as a moderately optimized charger without charging. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Telonius]

Three iconic PrC's for each base class? Here goes; just for theme, not for mechanics.

Barbarian: Bear Warrior, Frenzied Berserker, Champion of Grglrargh.
Bard: Sublime Chord, Seeker of the Song, Master of Masks (overlaps Rogue, but I always wanted to play one as a theatrical-minded Bard... if only the mechanics weren't so terrible).
Cleric: There are literally dozens of iconic prestige classes devoted to individual deities; these are just general, non-deity-specific ones. Evangelist (I know it doesn't give Cleric spellcasting, but dear gods it should), Church Inquisitor, Thaumaturgist.
Druid: Master of Many Forms, Planar Shepherd, Moonspeaker. (Holt Warden is great, but the theme seems more like, "Druid, but more Druid-y.")
Fighter: Kensai, Exotic Weapons Master, Dwarven Defender
Monk: Drunken Master, Shadowdancer (overlaps with Rogue, but gives a more ninja-esque feel), Tattooed Monk
Paladin: Blackguard, Knight of the Chalice, Grey Guard
Ranger: Horizon Walker, Order of the Bow Initiate, Justicar and/or Bloodhound
Rogue: Assassin, Spymaster, Dread Pirate. Loads more to choose from, but those give you some archetypes that others don't capture. (I considered Thief-Acrobat, but it's more like "I'm a Rogue-ier Rogue" than giving a new spin on the theme).
Sorcerer: Shadowcraft Mage, Incantatrix, Dracolexi
Wizard: Archmage, Loremaster, Master Specialist

Iconics that combine more than one class: Sacred Fist, Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight.
Other miscellaneous: Dragon Disciple, Weretouched Master, Ur-Priest

[The Glyphstone]

Out of curiosity, why did you list Frenzied Berserker, Archmage, and Horizon Walker, all of which are basically Class but Classier, yet reject Thief-Acrobat and Holt Warden for those reasons?

[Telonius]

For Frenzied Berserker, it's more the "uncontrollable and dangerous even to your friends" aspect of it that was just a little bit different.

To me, ranger (as a concept) seems more about knowing a particular area or enemy like the back of your hand, and being able to get along in the wild and track things down. For Horizon Walker, the feel is more about someone who wants to see everything, including other planes. Basically, the sort of person who'd want to have a copy of the Hitchhiker's Guide. (Or Manual of the Planes, as the case may be).

I was actually going back and forth between Archmage and Red Wizard. Archmage is a similar concept to a regular Wizard, but then I started comparing it to something like Mage of the Arcane Order - which occupies exactly the same headspace as a regular Wizard for me. It's hard for me to articulate exactly what the difference is. I think it has more to do with Archmages manipulating capital-M Magic itself, rather than being able to cast individual spells better.