Balancing the PHB spell list

[torrasque666]

Now this isn't a request for people to help me do such a monumental task, but rather a request for information. What are the most broken spells in the PHB? I printed out my copy of it(not fun, thank you free printing) and was considering going through the spells and modifying them to be less....... broken. And invalidating.

If you guys want to toss ideas, go ahead. I'll post my changes as I make them.

[Extra Anchovies]

Polymorph, Alter Self, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Astral Projection, Gate, Disjunction, Contact Other Plane, Divination, Rope Trick, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Wish, Miracle, Geas/Quest, Commune, Explosive Runes, Minor/Major Creation, Magic Jar, Contingency, Simulacrum.

Also the Planar Binding series (Planar Ally isn't nearly as borked because you don't get to choose the outsider, your deity does) and the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation series, if you want. Divine Power, Find Traps, and Knock can all invalidate other party members, as can the summon monster/nature's ally chains.

I don't know of any way to fix the above spells; they should probably just be blanket banned. Leaves casters with plenty of tricks but not too many tricks.

See also this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?191109-All-the-broken-spells-in-core) (but don't post in it, it's old).

[Snowbluff]

Simulacrum could be fixed but still useful if you can only make creatures up to your HD, who get reduced to 1/2 HD with the other half HD filled with empty HD (for the BAB /Skills/Save, but no spells/SLAs). Spell Likes and Supernatural abilities that replicate spells or similiar can not exceed half of their level.

[torrasque666]

Hmm..... for some of these, namely Wish and/or Miracle, I was thinking something along the lines of:

limit of 1/year, maybe 1/month. if use in excess of that

a permanent negative level(actual negative level. Lose HD, skill points, a feat if it happens, class features including spells, etc), cannot be cured with restoration and the like while not reducing ECL (Cast it at 17? you're still considered level 17 for the purposes of XP)


​Polymorph... only gains the modifier to STR/DEX/CON similar to the Primeval Form ability?
PAO: No permanency. period.
Astral Projection: duration = 1/round/2 level? Cannot be used from a demiplane (or would simply no ability to enter the Material Plane be better)?

Note quite sure how Alter Self is broken to be honest.


Gate: Cannot chose, random creature from a random plane. If used to open a portal, lasts for 1 round.

Shapechange: As Polymorph's changes, no templated creatures(if it allowed that anyway), same max HD as polymorph, make a will(or fortitude) save each round to maintain form, if failed, change to random form chosen by DM.

Rope Trick: Tangible area of force on the plane it was cast, occupying the same area as Rope Trick. Area(and max # of creatures) dependent on length of rope used. 5ft square/5ft of rope, max 1 creature/5ft.

Major/Minor creation: ALWAYS requires an appropriate craft check to succeed.

Simulacrum: hour/level, HD cannot exceed CL. Cannot make use of Spells, SLA or Su abilities.

COP: double DCs.

Teleport: drop to 1 mile/CL

G Tele: No range limit, but still chance that you arrive off target. Proceed down the "familiarity" chart by 1 row per 10 miles. "False Destination" still possible.

Divination: 20% chance your magical information was wrong.

G/Q: HD cannot exceed CL. Daily Will save to negate control, Fort save is daily(if failed once, can try again the next day to remove effect)

Magic Jar: Victim gets will save/round to negate, auto succeed rules apply. Possession can be done Once/10 rounds, including retake body. Half body's HP, -1 to physical scores per round, cannot be reduced below 1 though. -1 to charisma/round, 1 point restored upon changing body. If Charisma hits 0, lose sense of self and cannot leave. Assumes mentality of victim. If host body dies, current victim in Jar gets another Will save, if it succeeds, you die.



Was I too harsh?

[heavyfuel]

Invisibility and Fly line of spells will pretty much make you invincible against mundanes. Glitter dust could probably use a nerf so as to not make Hide useless

[torrasque666]

Fly.... maybe must be within base land speed of a surface, if struck must succeed on Concentration check of 10+2*damage dealt or fall, taking damage as appropriate.

Invisibility, perhaps instead changes to something similar to the Chameleon effect from TES. 5% concealment per CL. Greater Invisibility would be how normal Invis is currently.

[Snowbluff]

Your Simulacrum fix is too harsh.

[torrasque666]

Your Simulacrum fix is too harsh.

What if it takes into account the "empty" HD slots like you proposed for it? Or Full HD for BAB, Skills, and saves, Half HD for any sort of spells/SLA/Su, while gaining a fire vulnerability(150% from Fire)?

[heavyfuel]

Also, Ray of Enfeeblement is a pretty nasty debuff against mundanes, especially those in heavy armor. Make it a better debuff but with a Fort save attached


Your Simulacrum fix is too harsh.

Kind of agree, considering the spell has an XP component. Should either be day/lv or have the XP component removed. Just make sure your players don't try to pull "Tarrasque nail has no value so I automatically have in my component pouch" and you're good

[Snowbluff]

I don' think RoE should be nerfed through a save. Too many first level spells fall off the RNG.

What if it takes into account the "empty" HD slots like you proposed for it? Or Full HD for BAB, Skills, and saves, Half
HD for any sort of spells/SLA/Su, while gaining a fire vulnerability(150% from Fire)?

That'd be pretty much what I listed. The fire vulnerability is a good touch.

I am uncertain about the HD. They shouldn't be RHD, but they should have the same progression.

[torrasque666]

Also, Ray of Enfeeblement is a pretty nasty debuff against mundanes, especially those in heavy armor. Make it a better debuff but with a Fort save attached.

I don' think RoE should be nerfed through a save. Too many first level spells fall off the RNG.

Drop it to round/level maybe? Its still good as a situation spell then, but not as long of a debuff.


Kind of agree, considering the spell has an XP component. Should either be day/lv or have the XP component removed. Just make sure your players don't try to pull "Tarrasque nail has no value so I automatically have in my component pouch" and you're good


That'd be pretty much what I listed. The fire vulnerability is a good touch.

I am uncertain about the HD. They shouldn't be RHD, but they should have the same progression.

Probably add in a line somewhere, maybe in the line defining material components in the very beginning, that any body part required must be harvested/bought and is not assumed to be in the pouch. As for HD, probably.... HP is reduced to Half as well as 1+CON per HD in excess. Basically treat the "empty" HD as minimum rolls.

[Extra Anchovies]

Was I too harsh?

The planar travel version of Gate isn't the broken part; leave that available as it is in RAW. It's the summoning that makes it broken (want a solar? have a solar!). I would recommend simply removing the summoning aspect.

I'm of the opinion that the entire polymorph/shapchange chain should just be removed, entirely. The exception being baleful polymorph, because why play a caster if you can't turn people into frogs?

The thing with Rope Trick is it lets you do 15-minute adventuring days. It should not be available at all.

Your fix for the Creation spells sorta works. Still allows infinite wealth shenanigans, you now just need someone with Craft (Poisonmaking) to process all the black lotus extract.

COP should be removed entirely. Either the DCs are low enough that they can be met, and it breaks campaigns, or they aren't, and it's useless.

Teleport and Greater Teleport are also not so much game-breakers as they are campaign-breakers. Travel no longer means anything. They should both be removed. Teleportation Circle should remain, as should Teleport Object.

Magic Jar lets players take over your BBEG. It should be removed, or a HD cap enacted.

Your Divination and Geas/Quest fixes look good.

[heavyfuel]

Drop it to round/level maybe? Its still good as a situation spell then, but not as long of a debuff.


Probably add in a line somewhere, maybe in the line defining material components in the very beginning, that any body part required must be harvested/bought and is not assumed to be in the pouch. As for HD, probably.... HP is reduced to Half as well as 1+CON per HD in excess. Basically treat the "empty" HD as minimum rolls.


Thinking a bit more about RoE, the major problem I have with it is not that it's too strong of a debuff, but that it's too strong of a debuff for a lv1 spell. Raising it to a 2nd lv spell should work out fine too (even if you keep the round/lv change)

"Must be harvested and can't be ignored by Eschew Materials". It was already implied, but I think that making a point out of it was good.

[torrasque666]

Thinking a bit more about RoE, the major problem I have with it is not that it's too strong of a debuff, but that it's too strong of a debuff for a lv1 spell. Raising it to a 2nd lv spell should work out fine too (even if you keep the round/lv change)

Agreed. I'm going to start actually making some of these changes with a sharpie now.

[Dumbledore lives]

There are a couple spells that are also absurdly powerful for their level, but fall off quick. Color spray is the first that comes to mind, as it's effectively a save or die at level one. Then there are ones that may not be too powerful, but are certainly the best choices at a given level, stuff like Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, and Nauseating Cloud. These are all conjuration, but as others have mentioned above some Transmutation are also incredibly powerful.

[heavyfuel]

Mindblank. Something like making it 10min/lv instead of 24hrs. It sucks playing an enchanter after lv 15 because of this spell.


The planar travel version of Gate isn't the broken part; leave that available as it is in RAW. It's the summoning that makes it broken (want a solar? have a solar!). I would recommend simply removing the summoning aspect.

I'm of the opinion that the entire polymorph/shapchange chain should just be removed, entirely. The exception being baleful polymorph, because why play a caster if you can't turn people into frogs?

The thing with Rope Trick is it lets you do 15-minute adventuring days. It should not be available at all.

Your fix for the Creation spells sorta works. Still allows infinite wealth shenanigans, you now just need someone with Craft (Poisonmaking) to process all the black lotus extract.

COP should be removed entirely. Either the DCs are low enough that they can be met, and it breaks campaigns, or they aren't, and it's useless.

Teleport and Greater Teleport are also not so much game-breakers as they are campaign-breakers. Travel no longer means anything. They should both be removed. Teleportation Circle should remain, as should Teleport Object.

Magic Jar lets players take over your BBEG. It should be removed, or a HD cap enacted.

Your Divination and Geas/Quest fixes look good.

Agreed.

Using Rich's Polymorph fix is probably best. It's a good rule overall and doen't remove the shape-change aspect of casters.

Agreed.

All Instantaneous or Permanent Conjuration last 2hrs/lv. Plenty of time to stop enemies with a Wall of Stone, but you can make infinite money out of it. Also, Craft is too easy to min/max, especially for Wizards

Agreed.

I like the change to teleport to 1mile level. 20 miles isn't that long, unless your campaign is set in a really small place. Greater Teleport should maybe be 2miles level with chance of error

Magic Jar should have HD cap at CL, and keep the changes already made.

Agreed. Actually, having 20% chance of "miscast" from Divinations is bad. This just means preparing more of them and casting them twice/thrice to make sure the info you got is the correct one. Doesn't invalidate thinks like Scry and Die tactics, but nerfs Detect Magic. I don't know how to make them work yet, but I don't think this is the way to go I dun goofedand thoug hyou meant the entire Divination school

[Anlashok]

Was I too harsh?

Harsh I think is the wrong word, but your Gate and Divination changes all just do stuff to make the spells more obnoxious to use while still leaving room for abuse, just with more frustration involved.

Simulacrum change makes the spell worse, but also takes a lot of the fun applications away as well. I prefer Snowbluff's suggestions.

PAO change I just don't like for personal reasons, because while it is abusable, I've always felt the difficulty of getting an instantaneous/permanent polymorph has felt like a huge hole in a spellcaster's kit given how iconic something like that is.

Magic Jar and Shapechange save/round just sounds annoying. They don't so much as balance the abilities as encourage me to just avoid them due to unreliability or splat dive for ways to get around it.

[torrasque666]

The planar travel version of Gate isn't the broken part; leave that available as it is in RAW. It's the summoning that makes it broken (want a solar? have a solar!). I would recommend simply removing the summoning aspect.

Agreed.

So keep the travel one as is, but how does the whole "random summon" bit look?

I'm of the opinion that the entire polymorph/shapchange chain should just be removed, entirely. The exception being baleful polymorph, because why play a caster if you can't turn people into frogs?

Using Rich's Polymorph fix is probably best. It's a good rule overall and doen't remove the shape-change aspect of casters.

I will look into the Polymorph fix.

The thing with Rope Trick is it lets you do 15-minute adventuring days. It should not be available at all.

Agreed.


What if I added that it could be broken through physical means? A creature can tell where it is by walking into it(as already noted) and can attempt a sunder/strength/break check(DC=DC for a spell of the level) to force the spell to end early?

Your fix for the Creation spells sorta works. Still allows infinite wealth shenanigans, you now just need someone with Craft (Poisonmaking) to process all the black lotus extract.

All Instantaneous or Permanent Conjuration last 2hrs/lv. Plenty of time to stop enemies with a Wall of Stone, but you can make infinite money out of it. Also, Craft is too easy to min/max, especially for Wizards

So 2/hr level, and all things made/from it end as well?

COP should be removed entirely. Either the DCs are low enough that they can be met, and it breaks campaigns, or they aren't, and it's useless.

Agreed.

Probably. Seems like a bit of an extreme reaction, but agreed. However, what if it imposed negative levels in place of the stat drain?

Teleport and Greater Teleport are also not so much game-breakers as they are campaign-breakers. Travel no longer means anything. They should both be removed. Teleportation Circle should remain, as should Teleport Object.

I like the change to teleport to 1mile level. 20 miles isn't that long, unless your campaign is set in a really small place. Greater Teleport should maybe be 2miles level with chance of error

I think I'm going to go with heavyfuel on this one as opposed to EA. I still like the idea of using it, but if you think about it, if they want to go further than 20 miles, as a 20th level caster, thats another slot they need to lose. A slot that could be used for other things.

Magic Jar lets players take over your BBEG. It should be removed, or a HD cap enacted.

Magic Jar should have HD cap at CL, and keep the changes already made.

Agreed on the HD cap. Thought it already had one. And I was considering making that physical penalty apply to the original body, not the host body.

Your Divination and Geas/Quest fixes look good.

Agreed.EDITED

Woot. Got one thing right. How does it nerf Detect Magic?

[Snowbluff]

For mindblank, I think it should be a large, scaling bonus versus those spells. On the other hand, that stuff is just too much of a pain in the ass for players. "Oh hey, Bob? You're dominating. See ya next week."

Drop it to round/level maybe? Its still good as a situation spell then, but not as long of a debuff.
I think it should have more than 1 round at first level.





Probably add in a line somewhere, maybe in the line defining material components in the very beginning, that any body part required must be harvested/bought and is not assumed to be in the pouch. As for HD, probably.... HP is reduced to Half as well as 1+CON per HD in excess. Basically treat the "empty" HD as minimum rolls.

HP change is fine. My primary concern is falling off of the Save/Attack bonus RNG.

[heavyfuel]

I will look into the Polymorph fix.

Link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?172910-Articles-Previously-Appearing-on-GiantITP-com

Search page for "Old Rule: Polymorph" without quotes. It's a two parter


What if I added that it could be broken through physical means? A creature can tell where it is by walking into it(as already noted) and can attempt a sunder/strength/break check(DC=DC for a spell of the level) to force the spell to end early?

I think the problem is non-inteligent creatures. Or creatures with low inteligence. They probably have never seen this thing, so why would they try to force it open?



So 2/hr level, and all things made/from it end as well?

Yes.


Woot. Got one thing right.

See my edit. It nerfs Detect Magic cuz it's from the Divination school. Although just now I realise you meant the Divination spell, in which case, go for it

[heavyfuel]

For mindblank, I think it should be a large, scaling bonus versus those spells. On the other hand, that stuff is just too much of a pain in the ass for players. "Oh hey, Bob? You're dominating. See ya next week."
I think it should have more than 1 round at first level.

Scaling how? +1 per CL?

For RoE, if it's raised to a lv 2 spell it will last for 3 rounds when first available

[Snowbluff]

Scaling how? +1 per CL?
Too steep IMO. Maybe CL 1/2 or CL 1/3. I mean, it's a 9th level spell. Maybe add a SR style CL check.


For RoE, if it's raised to a lv 2 spell it will last for 3 levels when first available
THe other problem is that we're short on good 1st level spells in the game. What do with have, Grease? Scaling spells are totally great, and I'm happy where it is right now.

[Extra Anchovies]

What if I added that it could be broken through physical means? A creature can tell where it is by walking into it(as already noted) and can attempt a sunder/strength/break check(DC=DC for a spell of the level) to force the spell to end early?

If you do that, then as a DM you're either letting the PCs get away with cheese by having enemies not detect/break it, or you're coming across as working against the players by having enemies detect and break it.

[heavyfuel]

Maybe add a SR style CL check.

I like this. Enchanter must beat 15+Abjurer's CL on a CL check. I like Mindblank being strong, I just don't like it being unbeatable.


THe other problem is that we're short on good 1st level spells in the game. What do with have, Grease? Scaling spells are totally great, and I'm happy where it is right now.

So make the penalty scale more slowly. 1d6+1 is too good if you roll high (and decent if you roll low). Maybe 1d4+1/2, with extra ray at 6th CL (don't stack, but can take best of two or hit two targets)

[torrasque666]

I think the problem is non-inteligent creatures. Or creatures with low inteligence. They probably have never seen this thing, so why would they try to force it open?
True, but when it comes to anything with more than about a 4 INT, I'd consider them smart enough to know magic is about when things are messing with what appears to be reality.



See my edit. It nerfs Detect Magic cuz it's from the Divination school. Although just now I realise you meant the Divination spell, in which case, go for it
Was going to claim to have seen your own edit and reflect my own edit. Originally thought that he was referring to the school, now realize he was referring to the spell. Fix still works and makes sense. The 20% misinformation chance would probably be one of those "you think you succeeded, but really you didn't" type things.

[Snowbluff]

So make the penalty scale more slowly. 1d6+1 is too good if you roll high (and decent if you roll low). Maybe 1d4+1/2, with extra ray at 6th CL (don't stack, but can take best of two or hit two targets)

Yes and no. Compare to spells that cause shaken. It only penalizes some melee attacks. Average of a -2 to attacks and damage. Starting off lower is fine if it scales to its full penalty.

[torrasque666]

If you do that, then as a DM you're either letting the PCs get away with cheese by having enemies not detect/break it, or you're coming across as working against the players by having enemies detect and break it.

Its already been made tangible. Its basically an invisible hideout as it is. It would definitely be one of those things that i'd roll a d% to see if the thing noticed it(by running into it, etc). Or limit it to things that can see invisibility​ or similar spells?

[heavyfuel]

I'll also throw in my suggestion for Create Water, Endure Elements and Create Food and Water. These spells pretty much negate whatever enviromental challenges you want to put a party through.

"Oh, this desert that no-one has ever crossed? It's cool guys, I'm 5th level Cleric."

The quantity of water created by Create Water is absurd. On normal circumstances, water isn't going to be a problem one way or another, but it really trivializes survival situations. I suggest 1 liter (~0.25 gallon) per casting of the spell, and that's still plenty. The Cleric can still keep the party somewhat hydrated, but it will cost him some utility like Detect Magic and possibly even some of his 1st level slots.

Endure Elements gives you blanket immunity to heat and cold, which is way out of line for a 1st level spell especially considering it lasts for a whole day. There's just no way you'll find temperatures below -50 or above 140 in the Material Plane, and it's quite stupid that if you do, the spell suddenly stops working. You're absolutely fine at -50, the second it reaches -51 you're cold as hell. An untyped +4 Fort bonus is much better, or perhaps making you treat the local temperature 20 degrees warmer/cooler than it actually is, although that will probably just lead to extra bookkeeping.

Lastly, Create Food and Water, while a 3rd level spell, also negates survival situations, simply because it can feed an entire party with a single casting. Available at lv5, it can feed 15 humans or 5 horses. If your party has a single small creature, it can feed the whole party + mounts with one casting (I'm pretty sure there's a rule that says small creatures eat less than medium ones). At lv 6, you can feed the whole party, even you're all medium. I say make it a Touch Spell that makes one creature of up to large size satiated for a whole day. Following the apparent rule that 3 medium creatures (humans) = 1 large creature (horse), make an addendum that for every size category larger than large, the creature requires 3 castings of the spell.