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Hytheter
2014-11-05, 09:00 PM
This is something I threw together on account of a discussion in the 5e forum about how the Warlord class from 4th edition could be adapted to 5th. So far it seems to have appeased those who are fans of the warlord, but I'm a bit concerned about balancing and whether there's anything I should add/remove.

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Fighter Archetype: Commander

Commander's Tactics:
When you take this archetype at 3rd Level, when you use the attack action you can forgo one attack to apply one of the following effects to an ally of your choice:
- They may move as a reaction.
- They may make a single weapon attack as a reaction
- They gain +2 AC for the next round.
You can only use Commander's Tactics once per use of the attack action.

Morale Boost:
At 7th level, when you use your Second Wind you may forgo the normal effect and instead have any ally gain Temporary HP equal to d10+Your Fighter Level. That ally also gains advantage on their next attack.

Advanced Tactics:
From 10th level, when you use Commander's Tactics you can grant one of the following effects to an ally by forgoing 2 attacks instead of one.
- They may move and make a single weapon attack as a reaction.
- They may, as a reaction, cast a cantrip that has a casting time of 1 action.
- They gain advantage on all attacks until the start of your next turn.
You can only use Commander's Tactics or Advanced Tactics once per use of the attack action.

Tactical Mastery:
From 15th level when you can use any number of Commander's Tactics and Advanced Tactics in a single action as long as you forgo the required number of attacks for each effect. You can also use Commander's Tactics (but not Advanced Tactics) by spending a bonus action instead of forgoing an attack.
You can't apply the same effect to the same ally more than once in a single turn.

Battlecry:
From 18th Level, when you use Morale Boost you can choose a number of allies, including yourself, up to your Charisma modifier (minimum 2) and have all selected allies gain the effect.

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Design Notes/Concerns:

My overall approach was to mirror the features desired by user Eslin, a vocal advocate of the Warlord, without relying on too many disassociated mechanics or magic-seeming effects.

Commander's Tactics is intentionally designed to be compatible with Action Surge. This let's that ability still work with the Commander's niche, and at later levels can become very cool.
I'm not sure about the +2 AC effect; I wanted some sort of defensive buff, but +2 might be too powerful for a level three ability under bounded accuracy. Maybe it should just be that the next attack against them has disadvantage?

The advantage effect on morale boost is there because the effect seemed a little weak otherwise; it's basically just transferring the second win from you to someone else which isn't a net gain for the party as a whole especially when it's only temp HP. But if the class is deemed powerful enough as is that would probably be the first thing to go.
As for why it's temp HP, I based it vaguely on the Inspiring Leader feat and Rally maneuver, and flavour wise represents an increased will to carry on rather than actual healing of wounds (which would seem magical).

I don't have any qualms about Advanced Tactics, except that between both the basic and advanced tactics the ability might be too versatile for an at will ability.

Tactical Mastery however... flavour wise I love it. It allows you to play a commander who's sole role is an expert tactician and inspiring motivator but doesn't actually contribute directly to the fight (though he's well capable of getting his hands dirty too). I am concerned that it could be overly powerful though depending on party make up, even if it does use up all their reactions.

Battlecry I struggle with. Again I love it flavour wise, but it seems quite powerful. That's why I added the Charisma limitation instead of a flat modifier, but it kind of sticks out when no other effects are charisma based. And even then, it seems pretty powerful. Perhaps it should be once per long rest? And should I remove the charisma limit in favour of a flat number, or add some other Charisma based effects, or just leave it be?

So what are your thoughts?

edit: some more possibilities I just thought of now:
- increase the number and variety of Tactics, but limit the total number that can be learned (both basic and advanced combined) according to something like Charisma modifier. So if you have 16 charisma you can only use three tactcs, for example.
- Make battlecry the level 7 ability but drastically decrease effectiveness; say dX+cha HP for all allies within Y feet, possibly scaling (as opposed to directly mirroring second wind). Then have the 18th level ability be an improved version with more range or other effects, or have something else entirely.

Sindeloke
2014-11-06, 12:47 AM
I like it a lot, but I think you're right about the +2 AC. Maybe make it +1 AC at third level, and then scale it up to +2 later.

Battlecry, on the other hand, seems fine. You only get the one per short rest, and they don't stack with other temp HP. Given that healing is, as a rule, less powerful than crowd control or damage in D&D, it seems pretty in line with the sort of stuff the warlock is doing every short rest.

Rysan Marquise
2014-11-06, 03:10 AM
This feels about right for the power level you want.

I wonder if your are being a bit conservative. Everything you do already requires the teammate's reaction, it probably would be fine if you could use the ability multiple times in the turn.

The AC boost mostly just seems kinda.. weak. Not in terms of power, but in terms of theme.

Hytheter
2014-11-06, 04:00 AM
The AC boost mostly just seems kinda.. weak. Not in terms of power, but in terms of theme.

Well, I wanted something that wasn't offense oriented, like a "watch out for that attack!!!" sort of thing.

I am thinking maybe it should instead be disadvantage on the next attack against them and then have an advanced tactics that gives disadvantage on all attacks.
If I expand the system a little I could even make it a reaction but idk.

Composer99
2014-11-06, 09:47 AM
General remarks:

- I think if you want the archetype "capstone" (so to speak) to key off Charisma, you may want most (if not all) other archetype abilities to do so as well, so that having Charisma as a primary or secondary ability score for the fighter who wants to take this archetype is set (unless you don't want them to use Charisma as a key part of the build).

- I don't think the abilities are OP overall. They may be slightly more powerful than, say, Champion archetype - but whoop-de-doo. They certainly aren't more powerful than spells of equivalent level, as far as I can see. And it's kind of nice that the class with the most action economy shenanigans (a) does it to buff its allies, and (b) is a non-magical one.


On to some specific comments about the abilities:

Battlecry: I've already noted that this ability keys off Charisma, but it doesn't incentivise prioritising Charisma, because the minimum number of creatures you can affect is 2, and no other archetype ability keys off Charisma, either. So a fighter could dump Charisma, take this archetype, and still get decent performance out of this ability. If you want to avoid keying off Charisma, you could have an arbitrary limit on the number of creatures affected, or have the ability have an area of effect (no more than 15-20 feet I would imagine) and affect all friendly characters in the area.

Advanced Tactics: Spending 2 attacks for each effect might actually be underpowered (except for the granting advantage effect). You have to consider how much damage you're giving up losing 2 attacks, when your ally is getting 1 cantrip or 1 weapon attack and still has to spend their reaction. An ally getting advantage on all attacks until the start of your next turn, on the other hand, is probably worth giving up 2 of your own. I'm at a loss how you might get this ability to key off Charisma.

Morale Boost: This ability doesn't seem to OP to me (relative to other class' abilities that come online at 7th level), although it is strictly better than your own second wind of equivalent level. If you want to nerf it a bit, you might change it so the target gets 1d8 + half your level temporary hp plus advantage on its next attack. (Or a smaller die + Charisma + half your level temp hp.)

Commander's Tactics: Concur that +2 to AC is too much at level 3. Imposing disadvantage on a single enemy attack is probably better. Again, I'm not sure how you'd work keying off Charisma.

Having gone through all the abilities, I think it would be easier to modify Battlecry to simply not key off of Charisma instead of trying to find a way to fit Charisma into the other abilities.

Hytheter
2014-11-06, 07:09 PM
General remarks:

- I think if you want the archetype "capstone" (so to speak) to key off Charisma, you may want most (if not all) other archetype abilities to do so as well, so that having Charisma as a primary or secondary ability score for the fighter who wants to take this archetype is set (unless you don't want them to use Charisma as a key part of the build).

Yeah, that's precisely one of the concerns I'm having. I have some ideas on how to increase/reduce the charisma reliance, but I'm still tossing them up.


Advanced Tactics: Spending 2 attacks for each effect might actually be underpowered (except for the granting advantage effect). You have to consider how much damage you're giving up losing 2 attacks, when your ally is getting 1 cantrip or 1 weapon attack and still has to spend their reaction.
Attacking cantrips are decently powerful, so I think it's a fair trade for 2/3-half an action. For the other effect, the ally doesn't just get a weapon attack, they get to move as well. It's a little costly, but if the couldn't attack without the move it may well be worth it, and if they don't need the move you can just use the basic tactic instead and make an attack yourself.



Commander's Tactics: Concur that +2 to AC is too much at level 3. Imposing disadvantage on a single enemy attack is probably better. Again, I'm not sure how you'd work keying off Charisma.


Yeah ok I've definitely gotta change this one. I think I may do a bit of a revamp of the system.

Thanks for your input!

Hytheter
2014-11-06, 09:14 PM
Ok, so I'm thinking of expanding the Tactics system somewhat, and even folding some of the other abilities into the tactics. This means I'll have to change those abilities, but tell me what you think of this as a general direction.

Commander's Tactics
When you first take this archetype at 3rd level, you learn a number of Commander's Tactics equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1). At first, you can only choose from the Basic Tactics. When you level up, you can replace one Commander's Tactic you know with another that you can learn, or you can learn a new tactic if your Charisma Modifier is high enough. You gain a free additional Tactic at at 10th and 18th level.
To use Commander's Tactics you must use the Attack Action and then forgo one attack for Basic Tactics or two for Advanced Tactics. You may only use Commander's Tactics once per use of the Attack Action. To benefit from Commander's Tactics, friendly creatures must be able to see or hear you. You can not benefit from your own tactics unless stated otherwise.

Basic Tactics
At level 3, you may only learn and use Basic Tactics. Basic Tactics are used by Forgoing one attack during the attack action.
Attack Order
When you use this Tactic, choose a friendly creature. They may immediately make a weapon attack as a reaction.
Move Order
When you use this Tactic, choose a friendly creature. They may immediately move as a reaction.
Assistance
Choose a friendly creature, including yourself. Until the start of your next turn, that creature may use the Help action once as a reaction or a bonus action.
Warning
Until the start of your next turn, if a friendly creature other than yourself is targeted by an attack or forced to make a DEX saving throw, you can use a reaction to give that creature the effect of the Dodge action against that attack.
Morale Boost
A friendly creature gains Temporary HP equal to D10+Your Charisma Modifier.
Snap Out Of It!
Choose a friendly creature who is Frightened or Charmed from an effect that allowed a Saving Throw. They may immediately attempt the same saving throw again to end the effect.

Advanced Tactics
From level 10, you may choose Advanced Tactics when you would learn new Commander's Tactics. Additionally, you may use Basic Tactics as a bonus action instead of during an attack action. You may still only use one Commander's Tactic - Basic or Advanced - per use of the Attack Action.
Charge!
Choose a friendly creature. They may immediately move and use a single weapon attack as a reaction.
Team Attack
Choose two friendly creatures. Both may spend a reaction to use a single weapon attack, and if both creatures attack the same target, they each get advantage on the attack roll.
No Really, Snap Out Of It!
You may remove the Frightened or Charmed condition from a friendly creature.
Spell Order
One friendly creature may cast a cantrip as a reaction.
Dodge Order
One friendly creature gains the effect of the Dodge Action until the start of your next turn.
Team Morale Boost
All friendly creatures within 30ft gain Temporary HP equal to D10+Your Charisma Modifier.

Sindeloke
2014-11-06, 11:09 PM
Why set cantrips to advanced? They're meant to be a mage's basic attack, and generally balanced to be equivalent in power to a martial character smacking someone with a sword. Certainly I can't think of one offhand that's stronger than letting a rogue sneak attack.

Hytheter
2014-11-06, 11:48 PM
Why set cantrips to advanced? They're meant to be a mage's basic attack, and generally balanced to be equivalent in power to a martial character smacking someone with a sword. Certainly I can't think of one offhand that's stronger than letting a rogue sneak attack.

My impression is that cantrips are balanced more against an Attack Action (though they are generally weaker), not a single attack. A level 20 Fire Bolt doing 4d10 is probably worth more than a Single Fighter's attack doing d12+mod. Nevermind if the Fire Bolt is from a Dragon Sorcerer making it 4d10+Mod, or the worst offender: a Warlock's Eldritch Blast which is literally just 4 d10+mod attacks in one casting.

Sindeloke
2014-11-07, 01:25 AM
Fair point, but now you've got me wondering if the regular attack is worth it.

I mean, the Commander chooses to spend an attack and an ally's reaction because her ally's attack is more valuable than any reaction they could have made plus any attack she could have. Ideally that's often true for some allies, sometimes true for others, and occasionally true for the rest in about equal proportion. Below level ten, though, I think that's often for rogues, sometimes for paladins, and never for anyone else, which seems pretty niche.

Not that I wouldn't still take it sometimes (like if I had a rogue in the party) - I think it's fine as an option for a very nice subclass. I just wonder if it's enough to satisfy those 4e guys who want Lazylord back. We gotta get Eslin in here and ask.

Hytheter
2014-11-07, 03:31 AM
the Commander chooses to spend an attack and an ally's reaction because her ally's attack is more valuable than any reaction they could have made plus any attack she could have... I think that's often for rogues, sometimes for paladins, and never for anyone else, which seems pretty niche.

Rogues can Sneak Attack, Paladins can Smite, Barbarians get Rage Damage, Monks can spend a Ki point for Stunning Fist, Ranger has Colossus Slayer and maybe Horde Breaker. That's pretty much all the other Martials, from most to least niche. And there are times that the Commander may not be able to attack, or at least not at full capacity. He might be suffering a status effect, have disadvantage on attacks, Or what have you. Besides, there's no guarantee that the other characters would be able to use their reaction otherwise anyway. So overall there'll plenty of worthy chances to make use of it.