Avasculate v.s. Enervation

[RoboEmperor]

It seems at higher levels, you either stack avasculates on an enemy and finish him off with a blast spell, or you stack enervations and finish him off with a save-or-die spell, or just kill him outright with enervations. My question is is: which is better?

Without any metamagic cheese, let's consider a xixecal punching bag. Assuming SR and AC is overcome every time it will take
1686/2 = 843, +30 (fast healing)
873/2 = 436.5 +30
466.5/2 = 233.25 +30
263.25/2 = 131.625 + 30
161.625 - 90 (orb of fire) = 71.625 + 30 (I'm not counting vulnerability because this is a punching bag, and I'm trying to get a sense of how effective avasculate is generally on a high hp, high regen monster)
101.625 - 90 = 11.625 + 30
41.625 - 90 = Death

7 turns to kill, much much higher if the xixecal punching bag wins any SR or AC check.

Lets look at enervation. The xixecal punching bag has 40 constitution, and no way to repair that constitution damage, so 10 maximized enervations will kill him. In addition, it lowers its saves for a potential save-or-die, specifically dominate monster since its will is kind of weak. A level 17-20 wizard has a spell DC 25 with dominate monster, 27 with fox's cunning, 28 with a headband of intellect +6, but I'll use the 27 DC in this example. After 7 maximized enervations, the xixecal's will save is 11. 27-11 = 16, which is a 75% chance of success, so you can defeat the xixecal in 8-9 turns, with the advantage of dominate monster not requiring touch attacks.

Again this is a xixecal PUNCHING BAG.

For a more realistic enemy, lets look at an Chichimec punching bag.

It has 435 with 10 regen so
435/2 = 217.5 + 10
227.5/2 = 118.75 + 10
128.75 - 90 (orb of fire) = 34.375 + 10
44.375 - 90 = Death
4 turns and it is dead.

Chichimec has 24 con so 6 maximized enervations will kill it, but I noticed its 17 will save! 27-17 = 10 so at the start a wizard has a 45% chance of successfully dominating the Chichimec. Each successful maximized enervation will increase his chance by 20%, so after 2 maximized enervations the wizard will have a 85% chance of successfully dominating the chichimec.

So in both cases, enervation is superior or at least equal, so... would it be reasonable to say a wizard/sorcerer who focuses on enervations and save-or-die is superior than a wizard who relies on avasculate and orb spells? I am aware that a mailman sorcerer can dish out 800+ damage out in 2 rounds, but I'm talking about a level that is not that ridiculously optimized :P, and pre-epic too. I want to make it clear my goal is not soloing a xixecal, I just want to know which BBEG strategy is generally better, massive enervations and save-or-die or massive avasculates and orb spells.

I haven't really considered cases where enemies are immune to enervation, but in those cases I am assuming disintegrate will annihilate them all. Am I correct on this?

[Elric VIII]

In my experience, playing a Cleric that focused on no-save and save-and-still-suck from 1-20, enervate was more effective as you can manipulate it with metamagic much more effectively. Maximize is, in fact, one of the least efficient options.

Assuming an arcane caster you can get arcane thesis on enervate and fit a split ray, empowered, repeat enervate in an 8th level slot dealing 2*(2*(1.5*1d4))) negative levels, or about 15 levels on average in 1 cast. And that's pretty tame; I'm not piling on a bunch of +0 metamagics for negative spell levels.

On its own, or just restricted to PHB/SpC, I'd probably go with avasculate for damage, but enervate for a debuff to help my party.

[RoboEmperor]

Right! Arcane thesis! You're right, it'll completely put enervation as the winner then! Can't believe I forgot about it. I never used arcane thesis before but only now am I realizing the amazing utility of enervation so burning a feat just for enervation would definitely be worth it.

Regarding repeat spell and split ray, they all require additional touch attacks which may limit their usefulness. Clerics have divine power, wizards/sorcerers have true strike and arcane fusion. I guess I can always try to eldritch knight it for the BAB XD. Arcane thesis + maximize + empower = 6 reliable negative levels, hardly comparable to your 15 but at least it can be used with arcane fusion and true strike. With 15 negative levels on average you could lay waste to everything with negative levels alone! Moment of prescience could act as a 2nd true strike for a split ray, but then what's the point. You're casting a MoP, true strike, then a repeated OR split enervation v.s. just spamming greater arcane fusion. Split + empower + maximize is a level 8 spell, will deal 12 negative levels but require 2 rounds to prepare and 1 round to cast, so that's an average of 4 levels per round, and lets not forget cases where true casting is needed.

[Elric VIII]

You are correct repeat spell, split ray, and twin spell all add to the number of attacks necessary. Although when casting 8th level spells, touch attacks are less of an issue. SR can be dealt with, as well (either by a friendly rogue with one of the SR shredding ambush feats, or more spells).

[Psyren]

True Casting + Assay Spell Resistance = SR: No. Both are castable during your time stop as well.

[RoboEmperor]

Although when casting 8th level spells, touch attacks are less of an issue.

Right, I forgot natural ac is ignored in touch too XD. In the xixecal punch bag example, his 58 AC drops to a 3 AC XD. Chichimec punch bag's ac drops to 10. You know what? I'll go for it! XD. Who needs save or die spells or damage spells? I'm gonna try a pure enervation spam sorcerer or wizard!

Eldritch knight is very tempting for this idea because you only need the militia feat to qualify for it, and unlike most prestige classes it has epic levels so basically lose 1 caster level in exchange for permanent 1 BAB progression and increased hit die, but then again I don't wanna go gishy and also add abjurant champion... and that 1 caster level penalty on a sorcerer would be absolutely devastating... Whatever! I'll think on it. There are a lot of buffs that increase your touch attack roll (greater heroism comes to mind, also cat's grace), but having enough BAB to completely forgo true strike would be nice so you can focus on true casting, and since I can get enervation at level 8, eldritch knight shouldn't hurt my sorcerer that much since she got her core spell, although getting greater planar binding at level 17 is a bit harsh... I guess I'll rely on glabrezus for the longest time.

Maximize empowered split ray would result in a 8th level spell that gives a reliable 12 negative levels. I might prefer this over your 15 negative level average combo because it's a guaranteed 12 levels, but then again 4 rays means higher chance that at least one of them will get through, and I can use 7th level slots for 2.5*2*2 = 10 average negative level combo, and 6th level slots for 2.5*1.5*2 = 7.5 average negative level combo, but then again... does true casting's single spell clause affect all 4 rays or only 1 ray? If it's only 1 ray then I'll go the maximized empowered split ray, but if it's all 4 then I'll go your empowered split repeated ray. But then again repeated ray happens at the start of your next turn... @_@ w.e. As things stand though I'll probably go split empowered maximized metamagics because I don't like repeated spell :)

edit: I decided not to be power gamey and go pure sorcerer, unless I find a prestige class I like :)

[Rebel7284]

Why not memorize both? Sure Enervation is typically more powerful, but abuse negative levels enough, and your enemies will figure out that immunity to negative levels is essential when fighting you.

[RoboEmperor]

Why not memorize both? Sure Enervation is typically more powerful, but abuse negative levels enough, and your enemies will figure out that immunity to negative levels is essential when fighting you.

That's what mordenkainen's disjunction is for, to dispel any spell or item that gives immunity to negative levels :). If I decide to go avasculate then I'll probably build my sorcerer/wizard as an archmage with mastery of elements (for sonic damage conversion) and mastery of shapes, but if i decide to go enervation I won't bother with any damage spells and skip archmage altogether opening up 3 feat slots (which is huge on a sorcerer!).

[Helluin]

Except enervation does not deal constitution drain, but negative levels

A Xixecal has 72HD

[RoboEmperor]

Except enervation does not deal constitution drain, but negative levels

A Xixecal has 72HD

My god! How could I make such a mistake >.<
Despite that though, 6 rounds of 12 empowered maximized split enervations should kill him :). OR 3 empowered maxiized split enervations and a dominate monster :D

[Psyren]

All abominations are immune to energy drain and ability damage so neither of these spells will work on a xixecal.

[RoboEmperor]

All abominations are immune to energy drain and ability damage so neither of these spells will work on a xixecal.

my god! 2nd misreading. I read it as "they are immune to ___ but not energy drain, blah blah blah"

ehh... I guess direct damage it is... i got excited over nothing :(. Thanks for pointing it out, but still arcane thesis orb of fire is still amazing :). I learned a new trick from this thread XD.

Avasculate archmage it is!

In the above xixecal punching bag, it would require 6 turns to kill with a empowered maximized orb of fire (not counting vulnerability), and 3 turns to kill Chichimec.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Enervation is better on low HD to CR ratio casters as the HD loss hits them more noticeably AND makes them lose spells AND cuts off access to the higher level spells (as they now lack the min. level to cast them at all).

Avasculate is better on high HD dumb brute monsters, where 1/2 hp loss is hundreds of damage, no save.

Enervation is lower level, so if you have the right metamagic feats, it will just plain be better, but if not, Avasculate has its place. That said, at high levels, a caster has a million and one options to turn high HD brute monsters into joke encounters, while as casters are the most dangerous enemy.