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TheElfLord
2007-03-21, 07:44 PM
Okay, for an upcoming game I want to add a more mundane investigative/tratiorous feel/possibilty, so I want to remove all detect evil etc, and ways to figure out someone's alighment. While this affects several classes to a degree, it hurts the paladin the most. I'm planing to replace detect evil at will with more of a vague sensing a disturbance in the force type of a ability, that gives hints at DM approprate moments. This clearly is not an even trade, and I don't want to weaken a class that is already subpar abouve level five.


So I am looking to all of you for ideas on what to give pallys to soften the blow?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-21, 07:48 PM
Hmm, I like that idea of a jedi-like sense of bad things going on, instead of 'Yup, he's evil'.

Assassinfox
2007-03-21, 07:51 PM
Sense Evil Intent? Won't find anything if you scan the local villain at breakfast, but it will if he says "Hey, you should go to that dungeon over there and get me the big shiny amulet."

EDIT: And fanatics like Miko would be immune to it.

Or, could go by Ravenloft rules: The spell still exists, but never works unless you're scanning an outsider.

henebry
2007-03-21, 07:54 PM
Maybe if it's weaker/vaguer it could also be set to "always on". ("Always on" would fit the "disturbance in the force" model as well.)

melchizedek
2007-03-21, 07:54 PM
Skill points. The paladin already has a decent skill list for investigating. You might consider adding things like intimidate and gather information. Increase the skills per level to four or maybe even six. That should make up for the loss of detect evil.

Nifft
2007-03-21, 08:06 PM
Skill points, and a better skill list (Intimidate, Knowledge(local)); a bonus to Sense Motive that scales with level; automatic checks against some illusions and shapechanging (basically, some chance to "intuit" that people are actually evil creatures in disguise).

Cheers, -- N

Golthur
2007-03-21, 08:07 PM
Someone on this board (apologies, I don't remember who) suggested a bonus to Sense Motive (+x per paladin class level or something similar) as a replacement.

It struck me as a good way to "see into the hearts of men" (or women), so to speak.

Piccamo
2007-03-21, 08:10 PM
Drop the Alignment system entirely and use Allegiances as found in d20 Modern (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Allegiances.php) (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Allegiances.php%29). Then you can give them detect Allegiance.

Aximili
2007-03-21, 08:17 PM
Someone on this board (apologies, I don't remember who) suggested a bonus to Sense Motive (+x per paladin class level or something similar) as a replacement.

It struck me as a good way to "see into the hearts of men" (or women), so to speak.
A bonus to sense motive=half paladin level, along with immunity to magical deceiving or something should work wonderfully as a "detect evil" replacement.

goat
2007-03-21, 08:19 PM
Well, you could give them "discern lies" as a spell like ability.

They won't know if the person's evil, but they'll know if they're lying. Without any way of knowing if they're evil, it could make life interesting.

CharPixie
2007-03-21, 09:55 PM
Detect Thoughts?

Detect Hostile Intent? Hatred? Malice? Violence?

Sense Pain?

Visions? Lore?

mikeejimbo
2007-03-21, 09:59 PM
Commune, with a limit to questions per day?

Mewtarthio
2007-03-21, 10:37 PM
Commune, with a limit to questions per day?

That'd be even worse, even if you limited it to one question per day:

Day 1: "Was it Professor Plum?" "No."
Day 2: "Was it Miss Scarlet?" "No."
Day 3: "Was it Colonel Mustard?" "Yes."
Day 4: "Was it in the Conservatory?" "No."
etc.

The best way to neutralize Detect Evil, of course, is to have the crime done by the Neutral (or even Good) guy. That man who scans as Evil in the corner routinely commits insider trading and rigs horse races. The woman on the sofa who doesn't ping at all has tired of the current king's corruption and is setting up events to expeditiously remove him from power.

Desaril
2007-03-22, 12:28 AM
I recall a post regarding whether or not Detect Evil worked on humanoids that do not possess an Aura (as described for the paladin and cleric classes). One viewpoint was that Detect ____only works on outsiders, undead, monsters, et. al. Basically, it doesn't detect alignments of most "people". I haven't checked the errata, but I know that Detect magic specifically says it detects magic "auras" [the word "aura" is missing in my PHB for Detect (Alignment)].

I have decided that detect won't pick up your average person (even an adventurer's) alignment. Your joe blow warrior isn't good or evil enough to show up. The subject must have some divine (or otherwise substantial) connection to an alignment generator (usually an extradimensional source of good, law, chaos or evil).

Another way to look at is using the alignment descriptors for spells. A spell doesn't become good just because the caster is good (or the intention of the caster). Even spells that create "good" effects (such as cure spells) aren't "good". To be a GOOD spell, it must have the GOOD descriptor.

On the other hand, many of the aligned spells affect only creatures with a specified alignment, not the alignment aura. Holy smite affects evil rogues just like it does evil clerics.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-22, 12:32 AM
every one has an aura..thanks multiverse

TheOOB
2007-03-22, 12:33 AM
Hmm, I replaces detect evil with deathwatch in one of my game(there is no logical reason the spell should be evil), it still fills the essential function of detect evil, that is locating creatures you cannot see, plus it makes sense for a paladin (and acts as undead detection to boot)

Dausuul
2007-03-22, 12:40 AM
How about detect alignment descriptor? Works like detect evil, except that it doesn't detect evil creatures unless they actually have the [Evil] descriptor; and it also detects [Good], [Chaotic], and [Lawful] descriptors, and tells the paladin which it is.

MobiusKlein
2007-03-22, 01:50 AM
Allow the Detect <alignment> to only find supernatural evil, rather than mundane evil. Or add more spells / effects that mask alignment. If Joe Blow Lich has the Amulet of No Alignment(tm Mobius, 2007), and the Hat of Disguise . . . he can run around as the mayor. You only find out by investigating, or spraying holy water on everyone you meet.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-22, 02:00 AM
It seems like you don't want the PCs Detecting Good or Evil.

A simple fix would be to have the BBEGs have an Inexpensive Talisman of Obscure Object or Undetectable Alignment? (Market 1,000 GP Craft Wonderous Item CL1 (Level 1 Bard Spell).

Another option could be tweaking the Detect Evil ability to a Variant Detect Aura (Just Chaos, Law and Neutral) similar to Detect Magic for rounds to determine auras and strength of auras?

Detect Undead could work depending on the campaign. (No good if Little or No Undead)

What about True Strike 1/Day + 1 additional use at levels 4, 7, 10...........?

IMO Discern Lies shouldn't be a level 4 spell when you have the the level 2 detect thoughts and zone of truth. Zone of Truth or Discern Lies usable a few times a day as you level up.

How about Augury once a day at level 1 with additional at levels 4, 7, 10.....?

arkwei
2007-03-22, 02:41 AM
Detect Good, man, try that one out a little. In that way, th PCs think they know someone to trust... And then you turn the tables on them, saying the crime is actually committed by the Good guy. Ha!

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-22, 03:22 AM
May I humbly suggest using replacing it with a precognition ability. For instance: If there is a murder that is about to take place within say, 800 ft. of the paladin, the paladin somehow *knows*. Of course, the paladin has to run hard and fast to stop the murder from taking place because he only knows its going to occur when the murderer sees his target and thinks "I will kill this person, and not just someday or next week, or tommorow, or even later tonight, but AS SOON AS I PHYSICALLY CAN. As soon as I lure my prey into a private place/as soon as I'm within range/as soon as I can tie this person down in a conversation and set up a death attack cuz' I have levels of assasain and I'm cool like that/as soon as I slip this poison in the wine. AS SOON AS I CAN...." When the paladin is within 60 ft. of the killer (after running for 7-10 rounds nonstop, mind you), he can identify the killer on sight and per the laws of dramatic physics, he also tends to be just in time to stop the murder (or hear the victim's last words, depending on how dark the DM is feeling...)

Of course, if you feel in a light-hearted mood, you could also have the murderer escape somehow and have the would-be victim be completely oblivious and have something random (like a runaway wagon full of cabbages scope up the paladin on its rampage) stop the pally from explaining just how close the NPC came to having a dagger where his heart should be. Then have the Paladin meet up with the other PCs who last saw him suddenly running like a bat out of Baator out of the tavern for no apparent reason... Oh, Paladin Joe, will you ever get the respect you deserve? XD

Quietus
2007-03-22, 05:06 AM
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought that a bonus to Sense Motive would be a good idea - Maybe say they gain Skill Focus (Sense Motive) automatically, with +1 to sense motive every 5th level?

Saph
2007-03-22, 06:20 AM
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought that a bonus to Sense Motive would be a good idea - Maybe say they gain Skill Focus (Sense Motive) automatically, with +1 to sense motive every 5th level?

I like the Sense Motive idea. You could do it as Quietus says, or just give the paladin a sacred bonus to Sense Motive rolls of +1 per paladin class level.

The second way gives higher bonuses at higher levels, the first way gives higher bonuses at level 1.

- Saph

Mike_G
2007-03-22, 11:36 AM
I like the Sense Motive idea. You could do it as Quietus says, or just give the paladin a sacred bonus to Sense Motive rolls of +1 per paladin class level.

The second way gives higher bonuses at higher levels, the first way gives higher bonuses at level 1.

- Saph


We give Paladins +1/level to Sense Motive instead of Detect Evil. It got too silly when you were running a game and the Pally auto-detected on everybody he met. Investigation and intrigue were totally ruined.

mikeejimbo
2007-03-22, 11:46 AM
That'd be even worse, even if you limited it to one question per day:

Day 1: "Was it Professor Plum?" "No."
Day 2: "Was it Miss Scarlet?" "No."
Day 3: "Was it Colonel Mustard?" "Yes."
Day 4: "Was it in the Conservatory?" "No."
etc.

But you could limit it to questions per week, too. Just a thought, anyway.

Aximili
2007-03-22, 02:27 PM
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought that a bonus to Sense Motive would be a good idea - Maybe say they gain Skill Focus (Sense Motive) automatically, with +1 to sense motive every 5th level?
I'd suggest Skill focus at frist level, and +2 competence bonus at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.

Quietus
2007-03-22, 04:04 PM
That could work too - my biggest issue with +1/level is that at low levels, that bonus is going to be relatively meaningless, while at high levels, +20 (or more) to sense motive is a "Don't even bother" button. Using my method you get +7, using yours you get +11, either of which seems reasonable to me. It's enough at low levels that you can feel the difference, and at high levels, it's a BIG difference, but it still avoids being a situation where you automatically sense any bluffs and the like being sent at you.

Mike_G
2007-03-22, 04:11 PM
That could work too - my biggest issue with +1/level is that at low levels, that bonus is going to be relatively meaningless, while at high levels, +20 (or more) to sense motive is a "Don't even bother" button. Using my method you get +7, using yours you get +11, either of which seems reasonable to me. It's enough at low levels that you can feel the difference, and at high levels, it's a BIG difference, but it still avoids being a situation where you automatically sense any bluffs and the like being sent at you.

+1/level is roughly equal to max ranks for free.

It's still less reliable than the current Detect Evil at-freaking-will power, which is toattly level independant. Evn a low level Pally can do it, no save, no chance to be deceived, unless you are going to have all you minor bad guys have anti-detect magic.

You are taking way a signature ability. The Pally players will complain, unless they get something good. Plus, the 2 skill points per level mean it's hard for a Paladin to put ranks into skills. Giving them a big bonus to Sense Motive to represent their ability to see through ruses and Know What Evil Lurks in the Hearts of Men. Plus, it's level dependent.

Quietus
2007-03-22, 05:05 PM
It's level dependent, but in such a way that it's meaningless at low levels and overpowered at high. At low levels, that bonus does NOTHING. A sorceror can easily have +10 or more on Bluff if he chooses to at low levels, just from max ranks, 16 cha, and a lizard. That's not including if he bothers to REALLY focus on it. +1 is meaningless at that point. At higher levels, however, +1/level means that you could be putting in max ranks, and even with a 14 wis, at level 20 be hitting 45 on sense motive WITHOUT ROLLING. That's too much, in my opinion.

Also, look at other classes that give a bonus to a skill. They either give that bonus every other level, or every few levels. NOT every single level.

Desaril
2007-03-22, 08:47 PM
Did I miss something that gave everyone the aura ability. I really must check the errata more often.

Since my suggestion elminated the ability for detect evil to simply detect anyone who is evil, I didn't offer any alternatives.

I agree that a sense motive bonus is appropriate, although it should be limited to sensing evil motives. I don't think the paladin should be harder to bluff or trick, but he should be able to discern evil. I'm not sure how to balance the +1/level problem.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-22, 08:52 PM
Did I miss something that gave everyone the aura ability. I really must check the errata more often.

Not everyone has the "Aura" ability, but everyone (except True Neutral critters) has an aura. It's just much weaker than an outsider or cleric's aura.

Aximili
2007-03-22, 09:25 PM
I don't think the paladin should be harder to bluff or trick,
I think he should. That's kind of how I see the holy warrior.
"If you want to con a man of god, you better be good at it."

Desaril
2007-03-22, 10:15 PM
@Yuki- that's what I'm saying. I don't think every creature has an "aura". I've never read that anywhere, I think someone just made that up.

The spell description says that evil creatures can be detected. I assume that means a creature with the evil descriptor. It also says that classes other than clerics may be detected, but only if the class description says so. That's clearly a reference to the Aura ability of clerics, paladins, et. al. I don't think an evil rogue fits into any of those categories. As someone said the ability is detect evil, not detect evil alignment.

Basically, the common belief that detect evil can be used to determine alignment is not supported by the rules. In fact, if you read the evil descriptor for creature subtypes, it indicates that even if the creature changes alignment, it retains it's evil subtype. Detect evil should still detect such a creature because it detects the evil essence (or aura) not the alignment.

Mike_G
2007-03-22, 10:27 PM
@Yuki- that's what I'm saying. I don't think every creature has an "aura". I've never read that anywhere, I think someone just made that up.

The spell description says that evil creatures can be detected. I assume that means a creature with the evil descriptor. It also says that classes other than clerics may be detected, but only if the class description says so. That's clearly a reference to the Aura ability of clerics, paladins, et. al. I don't think an evil rogue fits into any of those categories. As someone said the ability is detect evil, not detect evil alignment.

Basically, the common belief that detect evil can be used to determine alignment is not supported by the rules. In fact, if you read the evil descriptor for creature subtypes, it indicates that even if the creature changes alignment, it retains it's evil subtype. Detect evil should still detect such a creature because it detects the evil essence (or aura) not the alignment.

In the PHB, under the spell description of Detect Evil, there's a chart for how strong an aura is (p 218). A creature of < 11 HD has a "faint" aura, uless it's an undead, evil outsider, cleric of an evil god, or evil magic item.

Basically, a 1st level Commoner with an evil alignment radiates a faint evil aura. And probably can't cast Undetectable Alignment. So low level thugs will always be detectable.

Detect Evil. It's not just for outsiders anymore!!!!

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 07:55 AM
The spell description says that evil creatures can be detected. I assume that means a creature with the evil descriptor.

I think most people disagree. This seems to be the crux of the issue, though. There's a row on the table for "evil creatures". It's not specified whether this is "creatures who are evil, having an evil alignment" or "creatures who are of the Evil subtype". I think the former, obviously you think the latter.

Note that the "evil creature" row is a weaker aura for HD than the undead row. Does that seem right to you, if all the creatures with these super-weak auras have the Evil subtype?

I also note that a quick search on the d20srd Monster Filter shows one monster with the Evil subtype which is not an Outsider. That monster is a Hellwasp Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#hellwaspSwarm), an extraplanar magical beast. Given this, I think it makes sense to regard the "evil creatures" row as meaning "creatures with an evil alignment", as otherwise you're basically looking at every single creature that would detect with that aura as detecting with a much stronger Outsider aura anyway.


It also says that classes other than clerics may be detected, but only if the class description says so. That's clearly a reference to the Aura ability of clerics, paladins, et. al.

It says:

Some characters who are not clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) may radiate an aura of equivalent power.

Which means characters whose classes indicate that they have cleric-type auras use the "cleric" row with its stronger aura-to-HD ratio. It does not mean that characters who don't have cleric-type auras have no aura at all.


I don't think an evil rogue fits into any of those categories. As someone said the ability is detect evil, not detect evil alignment.

It seems unlikely to me that this ability would not detect evil alignment unless the rules clearly and unequivocally stated so. It's such an obvious use and application of the ability that I would want to see a proper statement that it's not possible.


Basically, the common belief that detect evil can be used to determine alignment is not supported by the rules. In fact, if you read the evil descriptor for creature subtypes, it indicates that even if the creature changes alignment, it retains it's evil subtype. Detect evil should still detect such a creature because it detects the evil essence (or aura) not the alignment.

Detect Evil would detect an Evil outsider who has changed alignment. It has a separate row for detecting Evil outsiders. It would perhaps not detect a reformed non-outsider with the Evil subtype, but so what?

sharrem
2007-03-23, 11:11 AM
That could work too - my biggest issue with +1/level is that at low levels, that bonus is going to be relatively meaningless, while at high levels, +20 (or more) to sense motive is a "Don't even bother" button. Using my method you get +7, using yours you get +11, either of which seems reasonable to me. It's enough at low levels that you can feel the difference, and at high levels, it's a BIG difference, but it still avoids being a situation where you automatically sense any bluffs and the like being sent at you.

the way i see it a Paladin is so big into what is good and what is right that he sometimes become blind to what is obvious (no understanding irony joke and sarcasm for example) at list in the stereotypical way so i wold have gone with something more akin to a combination of discern lies and detect evil intent

Pocket lint
2007-03-23, 11:25 AM
Another way to deal with detect evil is by simple camoflauge. In any sort of situation, you have about 20% chance that the person you're dealing with is evil. No big deal, just means they put themself ahead of others to a greater degree than other people. And remember, just because someone is neutral or good doesn't make them automatically trustworthy. Their goals may still clash with your own.

So BBEG-minion is evil? So what - so is the janitor, five of those guards and Sir Guy's horse (mean-spirited beast, that one). Just make sure that he knows that this is "business as usual", so that your pally doesn't go smitatronic on them. Not that it's all that big a deal, because he'll only get the first smite to work for some strange reason...

Mewtarthio
2007-03-23, 11:35 AM
Detect Evil would detect an Evil outsider who has changed alignment. It has a separate row for detecting Evil outsiders. It would perhaps not detect a reformed non-outsider with the Evil subtype, but so what?

Having the [Evil] subtype means you always register as Evil and always get affected by spells as though you were Evil. If you happen to have a Good alignment as well, you also register as Good for appropriate spells and get the Good effects of a spell. The LG succubus Paladin gets affected by all four holy word-esque spells (Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos) and shows up with a strong aura under Detect Good, Detect Evil, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos. A reformed Hellwasp Swarm would still show up under Detect Evil because it has the [Evil] subtype.


Another way to deal with detect evil is by simple camoflauge. In any sort of situation, you have about 20% chance that the person you're dealing with is evil. No big deal, just means they put themself ahead of others to a greater degree than other people. And remember, just because someone is neutral or good doesn't make them automatically trustworthy. Their goals may still clash with your own.

So BBEG-minion is evil? So what - so is the janitor, five of those guards and Sir Guy's horse (mean-spirited beast, that one). Just make sure that he knows that this is "business as usual", so that your pally doesn't go smitatronic on them. Not that it's all that big a deal, because he'll only get the first smite to work for some strange reason...

Precisely.

ravenkith
2007-03-23, 11:39 AM
A shot to the back of the head.

But seriously, why not just disallow paladins?

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 11:53 AM
Having the [Evil] subtype means you always register as Evil and always get affected by spells as though you were Evil. If you happen to have a Good alignment as well, you also register as Good for appropriate spells and get the Good effects of a spell. The LG succubus Paladin gets affected by all four holy word-esque spells (Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos) and shows up with a strong aura under Detect Good, Detect Evil, Detect Law, and Detect Chaos. A reformed Hellwasp Swarm would still show up under Detect Evil because it has the [Evil] subtype.

Sorry, I didn't mean "so what" as in "having the [Evil] subtype as well as a good alignment matters not a whit to a character". I just meant "so what if you do show up on Detect Evil despite having a good alignment? That represents the 'detecting the evil essence' that was mentioned, and is a separate function of the spell from detecting evil-aligned people."

Really, it would be a help to a paladin to have Detect Good, too...

Mewtarthio
2007-03-23, 11:54 AM
A shot to the back of the head.

But seriously, why not just disallow paladins?

True, they aren't exactly the most intrigue-oriented of classes:

"Okay, we've infiltrated the enemy organization. Now to--"
"Excuse me, but I've never seen you guys before. Are you new here?"
"No. I cannot act dishonorably through deception. I am a Paladin. I have come to destroy you all."

"Alright, we've managed to subvert this guy with a bribe. He'll be working for us now. You two plan our counterattack."
"Does this count as association? 'Cause I can't do that or I lose my powers."

Don't get me wrong, they're nice paragons of virtue and all, but paragons of virtue are poor spies.

ravenkith
2007-03-23, 02:01 PM
Paladins: great as an idea, crap in execution.

If you're going to be an uncompromising fanatic, you'd better be a badass uncomprompomising fanatic, or you're not long for this world.

Unfortunately, paladins, mechanically, are not badass.

Even bards laugh a t paladins (if the DM actually enforces the fluff on em)

Morgan_Scott82
2007-03-23, 02:56 PM
As Desaril was pointing at, as I understand the detect evil ability it only reveals those creatures or individuals that have an evil aura, such as clerics of evil deities, blackguards, creatures with the (evil) subtype etc.

The guy on the street corner who would gut and kill someone just for the fun of it, while decidedly evil, would not have an evil aura and therefore would not be revealed by detect evil. At least that is how I've always understood detect evil and implemented it in my games.

This is beneficial in several regards, it doesn't ruin my subterfuge\investigation plot adventures, and it mitigates the likelihood of the stick up the butt self righteous detect and smite paladin.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-23, 03:18 PM
As Desaril was pointing at, as I understand the detect evil ability it only reveals those creatures or individuals that have an evil aura, such as clerics of evil deities, blackguards, creatures with the (evil) subtype etc.

The guy on the street corner who would gut and kill someone just for the fun of it, while decidedly evil, would not have an evil aura and therefore would not be revealed by detect evil. At least that is how I've always understood detect evil and implemented it in my games.

This is beneficial in several regards, it doesn't ruin my subterfuge\investigation plot adventures, and it mitigates the likelihood of the stick up the butt self righteous detect and smite paladin.

Unfortunately, the D&D definitions "evil" and "creature" are quite exact and unambiguous. Anything with a Charisma score is a creature; anything with an alignment, descriptor or subtype with the word "Evil" in it is evil.

So, yeah, this is just simply wrong.

Why would there be so many spells and effects that hide alignment from Detect spells if only paladins and clerics were subject to them? Surely there would just be self-only spells for the cleric and paladin? But, no, even a Ring of Mind Shielding blocks attempts to magically discern alignment...

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 03:37 PM
As Desaril was pointing at, as I understand the detect evil ability it only reveals those creatures or individuals that have an evil aura, such as clerics of evil deities, blackguards, creatures with the (evil) subtype etc.

Note that there is one row on the table for what kind of aura an "evil creature" possesses, and another for the kind an "evil outsider" possesses. The former has less of an aura than an undead; the latter detects as strongly as an evil cleric. Is it really reasonable to think that "evil creatures" is meant to cover only those creatures with the [evil] subtype who are not also outsiders (few enough as such creatures are), and that they're supposed to detect so weakly? Isn't it more reasonable to see that weakest progression as applying to those whose evil is alignment-only?

Also note that evil clerics do not gain an evil aura by virtue of being clerics. Their aura is just "particularly powerful". Indeed, if an evil person who takes a level of cleric worshiping an evil deity gains a brand-new aura that he didn't have before, why does that class feature specify "particularly powerful"?

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-23, 04:01 PM
Perhaps some kind of empathy with everything--people are more apt to talk to the paladin or help them, animals are friendlier, and so on.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-03-23, 04:42 PM
Unfortunately, the D&D definitions "evil" and "creature" are quite exact and unambiguous. Anything with a Charisma score is a creature; anything with an alignment, descriptor or subtype with the word "Evil" in it is evil.

So, yeah, this is just simply wrong.

Why would there be so many spells and effects that hide alignment from Detect spells if only paladins and clerics were subject to them? Surely there would just be self-only spells for the cleric and paladin? But, no, even a Ring of Mind Shielding blocks attempts to magically discern alignment...

In light of re-examining the table an the comments of both yourself and Kamikasei, I concede that my interpretation was incorrect under rules as written. That said, I intend to continue using it as a house rule since it goes a long way toward preserving ambiguity and mystery about NPCs and potential plots I could use as a GM. I offer this interpretation as an alternative to just outright replacing detect evil with another ability for the OP. This can preserve the "detective" type story it sounded like you were wanting to run while still offering the paladin a useful ability and requiring a minimum of homebrewing and rules modification.

Quietus
2007-03-23, 05:00 PM
the way i see it a Paladin is so big into what is good and what is right that he sometimes become blind to what is obvious (no understanding irony joke and sarcasm for example) at list in the stereotypical way so i wold have gone with something more akin to a combination of discern lies and detect evil intent





So the only Paladins that exist in your game have sticks, eh? I can accept that. However, in the game worlds I play in, Paladins can have just as much fun as anyone else. I know of one in particular, a Halfling paladin of Ehlonna, who has FAR more fun than the rest of the party. Yeah, she's LG, and she acts like it, but that doesn't mean that she "Doesn't understand irony or sarcasm". She appreciates them far more than the rest of the party. When we entered a small guard tower, and the inhabitants attacked us, we responded with lethal force... our group nearly died, and of the 12 people in the tower, only one was left standing, and two were dead. We discovered afterward that the people in the tower were actually the good guys, they just attacked us because they're used to having groups of bad guys come through and pose as good guys, so they treated us the same as they'd treat anyone else.

While the rest of us were stewing over this, that paladin was happily tending to everyone's wounds, and lecturing them in her (highly annoying) singsong way about how they need to be more trusting. She was upset by the loss of life, of course, but we didn't do anything wrong, nor did they, really. She found that amusing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the situation DRIPS irony, and she completely understood that... and she finds my character's biting, sarcastic wit to be entertaining as well. That stick is an optional one, most people just don't realize it.

Black Hand
2007-03-23, 05:10 PM
I'd go with the Detect Evil Intent, which is similar to the 2E version of the Paladians ability.

You could be detecting it on a CE fellow in the bar having a drink and not notice anything unusual, although if he begins to think about formulating a plan on running out without paying you'd notice minor intent.

Or the LG fellow you're detecting it on in the same bar who's contemplating on smashing his flagon over the back of the head of another man who's bad mouthing one of the serving ladies....you'd detect that too.

Stevenson
2007-03-23, 05:25 PM
I would just solve the problem with like an amulet of undetectable alignment.

On everybody.

Well, everyone potentially traitorous anyway. It's something most covert badguy traitors should have anyway.

Daze
2007-03-23, 05:35 PM
Interesting Thread....

I dont know, but when I DM I eliminate the detect alignment's all together. It just doesnt make sense to me that any mortal (even the holy, uber-noble ones) can see into the soul of something else. They can of course use run-of-the-mill common sense, but nothing magical. Only gods can see into the hearts of man, never made sense to me as a paladin or cleric ability. It tends to ruin any sense of mystery or intrigue you may be trying to implement and may even considerably shorten your more epic campaign ideas.. e.g.The newly minted paladin Jethro walks into the pub, searching for information about the wizard Mordlach.. an evil being of great power who has ruled this part of the world for centuries... Jethro does aq uick scan of the bar and finds that the pretty barmaid serving breakfast is radiating evil from every pore of her being.. Jethro stabs her through the heart and the disguised Mordlach falls dead... *yawn* yeah right.... but you see my point...

And relatedly... I dont find Paladin's all that underpowered in my campaigns (seems to be a big discussion in these boards) If you feel they are in your campaign, just give em a better sword.. the talking variety even better (DM story movers... hint hint) :smallwink:

Pocket lint
2007-03-23, 05:41 PM
The newly minted paladin Jethro walks into the pub, searching for information about the wizard Mordlach.. an evil being of great power who has ruled this part of the world for centuries... Jethro does aq uick scan of the bar and finds that the pretty barmaid serving breakfast is radiating evil from every pore of her being.. Jethro stabs her through the heart and the disguised Mordlach falls dead... *yawn* yeah right.... but you see my point...
As mentioned, the counter to that sort of idiocy is to have the room containing at least four evil persons, *none* of whom is a disguised wizard. If the paladin goes stabbetystab, say hello to lost powers.

ETA: Detect evil isn't intended as a solve-the-plot device. It's mostly useful to find where already known bad guys are hiding, or if someone deserves extra caution when you deal with him/her. It is by no means a carte blanche for going medieval on someone's behind.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-23, 05:45 PM
Perhaps some kind of empathy with everything--people are more apt to talk to the paladin or help them, animals are friendlier, and so on.

Great. Now I'm picturing a Paladin screaming, "By the might of all the forces of good, I smite thee, foul evildoer, that thou may go to Hell and join the demons you serve!" while all manner of cute woodland creatures wander up to him, begging to be petted. Remember, animal friendliness can real ruin badass moments (http://www.egscomics.com/d/20031022.html)--and it gets pretty annoying (http://www.crfh.net/d/20000921.html) at times, too.


I would just solve the problem with like an amulet of undetectable alignment.

On everybody.

Well, everyone potentially traitorous anyway. It's something most covert badguy traitors should have anyway.

"Hey, Frank, nice amulet!"
"Uh, yeah, sure, thanks."
"But you'll have to take it off. The paladin's looking for evil people, and everyone knows that amulets block detections spells."
"Uh, no thanks. It's my special life-preserving amulet. I need it to live."
"I am Sir Gudie the Twice-Shod! Why dost thou wear that amulet?"
"Uh, to live?"
"Verily, that may be so, but know, fiend, that I shall investigate thy doings most fully to determine the veracity of thy statement!"

sharrem
2007-03-23, 05:45 PM
So the only Paladins that exist in your game have sticks, eh? I can accept that. However, in the game worlds I play in, Paladins can have just as much fun as anyone else. I know of one in particular, a Halfling paladin of Ehlonna, who has FAR more fun than the rest of the party. Yeah, she's LG, and she acts like it, but that doesn't mean that she "Doesn't understand irony or sarcasm". She appreciates them far more than the rest of the party. When we entered a small guard tower, and the inhabitants attacked us, we responded with lethal force... our group nearly died, and of the 12 people in the tower, only one was left standing, and two were dead. We discovered afterward that the people in the tower were actually the good guys, they just attacked us because they're used to having groups of bad guys come through and pose as good guys, so they treated us the same as they'd treat anyone else.

While the rest of us were stewing over this, that paladin was happily tending to everyone's wounds, and lecturing them in her (highly annoying) singsong way about how they need to be more trusting. She was upset by the loss of life, of course, but we didn't do anything wrong, nor did they, really. She found that amusing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the situation DRIPS irony, and she completely understood that... and she finds my character's biting, sarcastic wit to be entertaining as well. That stick is an optional one, most people just don't realize it.

Notice the fact that i wrote stereotypical paladin most paladins that played for me were not of the holier then tho can't see that the damsel in distress is a ruse or understand sarcasm but since the paladin is often portrayed as such in literature and game products i don't think that a sense motive ability/bonus feats in the character class concept (at least not in my opinion):cool:

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 05:47 PM
Only gods can see into the hearts of man, never made sense to me as a paladin or cleric ability.

Chances are (depending on setting) the gods themselves are empowering those paladins and clerics. Just as their devotion grants them other boons from their deities, they are granted insight.


It tends to ruin any sense of mystery or intrigue you may be trying to implement and may even considerably shorten your more epic campaign ideas.. e.g.The newly minted paladin Jethro walks into the pub, searching for information about the wizard Mordlach.. an evil being of great power who has ruled this part of the world for centuries... Jethro does aq uick scan of the bar and finds that the pretty barmaid serving breakfast is radiating evil from every pore of her being.. Jethro stabs her through the heart and the disguised Mordlach falls dead... *yawn* yeah right.... but you see my point...

Meh; a powerful evil dude who wants to disguise himself as someone innocuous but can't be bothered to ward himself against detection deserves to die, and a paladin who murders someone just for pinging on his evil-dar deserves to fall.

Daze
2007-03-23, 06:01 PM
Chances are (depending on setting) the gods themselves are empowering those paladins and clerics. Just as their devotion grants them other boons from their deities, they are granted insight.

Duely noted...But there are plenty of god-like powers that arent imbued to earthly representitives. It's a matter of selection really.

And I do see the previous points about ways which a clever DM might get around an over powered detect spell by having villains take precautions.. adding more evil to a room, etc... but why not just cut the problem out at the root? If I want my players to know someone is bad news, I give em plenty of reason to think so.. or dont.. depending on the path I'd like the story to tread... you dont need detect evil to know the goblins waiting in ambush at the crossroads are bad news....