If it has stats... (Challenge to the playground)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You guys know how these threads go:


1) I made a creature. It has set statistics, set CR (if a substantially epic one), is fully RAW, it has no arbitrarily high ability scores or HD, it has no custom abilities whatsoever that affect its mechanics, and generally it is a set (if extremely powerful) threat.

2) This creature needs killing posthaste for entirely irrelevant and survival-of-the-multiverse-related reasons. That's just flavor so that any character of any type would have reason to actually attempt the extremely suicidal act of fighting said creature.

3) Anyone who wants can present a character build they'll attempt to kill the creature with. The character can be of any level and any level adjustment up to a total of 100 and use any amount of gear. The high upper limit is because I don't expect people to do it pre-Epic (though I could be wrong). Obviously, the lower level the build, and the fewer final gear/resources you use and succeed, the bigger the bragging rights. If your build requires preparation, it happens in-game and the creature might attempt to interfere if it discovers your preparation with its in-game abilities. Ability scores are the "seriously heroic" array (18/16/14/12/10/8) or 34 point-buy (your choice) to begin with and HP are maximum.

4) You don't know what the creature is. You can use in-game abilities to attempt to learn stuff about it and learning about it before you start any preparations does not count as fighting it or preparing to fight it (i.e. it won't have reason to interfere yet).

5) The creature's statblock will be PMed to people who kill it (if any), plus posted openly at the end of the playtest. People interested in the creature's mechanics but not interested in taking part in the challenge can ask me to PM the statblock - but please wait a few days for those who want to make an attempt without any commentary that could even indirectly influence them.
The creature's statblock will not be altered in any way after each fight, even if slain. Its tactics however (chosen buffs, combat actions and the like) will be adjusted to counter the same tactic in the future. Now, if you can find a tactic it can't adjust to, there's always attempts to slay it at a lower level or with fewer resources spent.

[Extra Anchovies]

I might as well set the low bar...

1. Wizard 100
2. Leadership shenanigans
3. Do wizard gamebreaker stuff
4. ??? (maybe cast an epic spell?)
5. Kill teh monstarz

:biggrin:
as an aside, I'm not asking you to PM me the statblock; this is wholly facetious.

[Kelb_Panthera]

100 is -way- too many.

Wizard 21 with epic spellcasting.

Abuse epic spellcasting's uncapped mitigation factors to craft a spell that kills that one, specific creature, regardless of distance or planar boundaries, as a standard action, for free.

Done.

[OldTrees1]

100 is -way- too many.

Wizard 21 with epic spellcasting.

Abuse epic spellcasting's uncapped mitigation factors to craft a spell that kills that one, specific creature, regardless of distance or planar boundaries, as a standard action, for free.

Done.

^DC 0 of course so that the wizard can't be killed during research time since the research time is 0.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

100 is -way- too many.

Wizard 21 with epic spellcasting.

Abuse epic spellcasting's uncapped mitigation factors to craft a spell that kills that one, specific creature, regardless of distance or planar boundaries, as a standard action, for free.

Done.

Eh. I think it's only reasonable to assume that a creature intended to be fought at level 100 also picked up some caster class to Epic point to play the Tom and Jerry "well did your prepare THIS?" game known as Epic Spellcasters fighting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh. I think it's only reasonable to assume that a creature intended to be fought at level 100 also picked up some caster class to Epic point to play the Tom and Jerry "well did your prepare THIS?" game known as Epic Spellcasters fighting.

The OP suggests, to me anyway, that the DM already has the creature statted out somewhere. I hope for the creature's sake that it does, indeed, have epic spellcasting because it's utterly screwed unless it does or epic casting is banned.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Being a wizard doesn't prevent you from being squished unless you take specific countermeasures against it. Against sufficiently powerful opponents tactics still matter.


2) d100


EDIT:
Anybody know why the diceroller isn't working? In any case, the potential outcomes for that free autokill epic spell were "no effect", "caster dies" and "caster is cursed to be unable to use mitigating factors".

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The OP suggests, to me anyway, that the DM already has the creature statted out somewhere.
Correct.



I hope for the creature's sake that it does, indeed, have epic spellcasting because it's utterly screwed unless it does or epic casting is banned.
Neither. I'm not going to be writing what is essentially custom spells because that would defeat the purpose of having a given stat block within given rules for the creature. OTOH, unless epic casters are sufficiently creative, prepared for the creature or powerful, relying on epic magic alone will get them horribly murdered or cursed. I mean, not even trying to find what your opponent can do? Meh.

[Extra Anchovies]

1. Acquire divine rank of 16+ (probably easily doable by level 100)
2. Set portfolio to "CR-epic monsters"
3. Now you know everything about it, woo! And you knew about it 16+ weeks before it existed.

Again, this is an intentional cop-out.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Portofolio sense doesn't guarantee success, however absurd it might be, when there are abilities like Anathematic Secrecy and similar in play.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Watching this thread to see if it ends better than the last one.

(Protip: the last such creature had at least one custom ability which, effectively, was 9 paragraphs of "Nu-uh!")

[Rubik]

Level 17 wizard.

I take the Sanctum Spell feat. I pop on over to the Ethereal Plane, place a repeating trap of Sanctum Spell'd Shades (created outside my sanctum) for a Genesis effect with no XP cost, specifying that it be a livable, flowing time demiplane with 1 round on the Material Plane equalling 1,000 years on the demiplane. Then I wait a few minutes for the plane to balloon to massive size (since it's growing at a ridiculous rate, with a repeating trap to continue increasing its size). Then I enter the demiplane with enough plants (including oak trees) and animals to create a reasonable ecosystem, just to make it a nice place to live.

I make sure that I have the Reserves of Strength feat to uncap my spells, cast Consumptive Field (using one of the myriad ways to gain it as a spell known, including Extra Spell, wyrm wizard, rainbow servant, or just Polymorphing into a dragon of sufficient size) on a termite mound, and then cast Shapechange to turn into the beastie in question. If my CL isn't high enough, I'll recast Consumptive Field at the boosted CL a few times until my CL is high enough to do so. Now I know all of its abilities, aside from spell-likes (which, honestly, aren't that worrisome).

I'll rebuild into whatever PrC I want once I learn what it can do.

Care to PM me its stats?

[Werephilosopher]

and then cast Shapechange to turn into the beastie in question.

What if it has 26+ HD?

[Rubik]

What if it has 26+ HD?That's accounted for already in the Reserves of Strength feat.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Shapechange fails; it can only turn you into nonunique creatures. Besides, Reserves of Strength would have only increased the cap by 1, 2 or 3, which wouldn't be nearly enough.

Not even going to get into the 3-month preparation for designating a sanctum.

[Rubik]

Shapechange fails; it can only turn you into nonunique creatures. Besides, Reserves of Strength would have only increased the cap by 1, 2 or 3, which wouldn't be nearly enough.There's always Ice Assassin. Do you want me to cast Ice Assassin? Because then it's no longer unique. Or I could just study the ice assassin.

Plus, Reserves of Strength doesn't state that the uncapping is only to +3. It just uncaps period.


Not even going to get into the 3-month preparation for designating a sanctum.You can have a sanctum as early as level 1. I don't doubt I'd have time between level 1 and level 17 to designate a sanctum at some point. Downtime is a thing. Or I could use time dilation to do it nigh instantaneously. Because that's also a thing.

[Werephilosopher]

Neither. I'm not going to be writing what is essentially custom spells because that would defeat the purpose of having a given stat block within given rules for the creature. OTOH, unless epic casters are sufficiently creative, prepared for the creature or powerful, relying on epic magic alone will get them horribly murdered or cursed. I mean, not even trying to find what your opponent can do? Meh.


Shapechange fails; it can only turn you into nonunique creatures.

Just make an epic spell to turn you into the creature. You aren't casting it on the creature itself, so you shouldn't be cursed.


Besides, Reserves of Strength would have only increased the cap by 1, 2 or 3, which wouldn't be nearly enough.

Just checked Reserves of Strength, and although cheesy, it does remove the level cap of the spell altogether, not just raise it by 1, 2, or 3.


Not even going to get into the 3-month preparation for designating a sanctum.

One could do it in a fast-time plane.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Ice Assassin's wording is iffy if applied here. One of three things happens;
1) It has no effect as it can't copy the creature at all. No result.
2) It has full effect and copies everything. You die outright.
3) It has partial effect. You get a copy without the creature's important/powerful abilities.

The result depends on how you interpret the spell's wording. I'm leaning towards "no result" because there are several reasons and effects that would net a "no result" outcome but only one reason each for the other two.



Epic Spells can't turn you into the creature any more than shapechange can.

[georgie_leech]

Epic Spells can't turn you into the creature any more than shapechange can.

Eh, technically they could, as Epic Spells have somewhat of a blank cheque in terms of limits. Really, this is why when you have a challenge like this, there should really be an impartial DM to make rulings and judgements from both sides. Not me, I don't have the time nor interest :smalltongue:

[Werephilosopher]

Watching this thread to see if it ends better than the last one.

(Protip: the last such creature had at least one custom ability which, effectively, was 9 paragraphs of "Nu-uh!")

Are the stats available? Where is this thread? I'm curious.

[Ionbound]

For Posterity: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?34785-Can-any-spell-hurt-it/page2&p=2010735#post2010735)


Got it! Eschew Materials feat + Major Creation.

There's no book value listed for either Osmium or it's antimatter counterpart. Just summon Anti-Osmium to the limit of your casting ability in contact with the critter. (Point of order: given an Earth-equivalent density, and assuming it has the DR of rock at all points, it takes a 17th level caster to summon enough Anti-Osmium to fragment the planet. Imagine what a 50th could do.)

EDIT:
Osmium is 22610 kg/cubic meter. A 50th level caster summons 50 cubic feet, or a cube 3.7 feet to a side. This converts over to be roughly 15.25 cubic meters, for a final density of 344,802 kg. 1 gram of antimatter produces roughly a 43 kiloton reaction (doubling once the matter is added into the equation, so the detonation of 1g of AM in contact with 1g of matter is 86kt). We have 344,802,500 grams of anti-osmium, for a total yield of 29,653,015,000,000 kilotons. (these are metric tons of 1,000kg each, for a total of 29,653,015,000,000,000 kiloGRAMS of TNT) 1 lb of TNT does 3d6 damage, or, converting over, 0.454 kg of TNT does 3d6 damage. So, dividing 29,653,015,000,000,000 by 0.454 yields 65,315,011,013,215,859 increments of 3d6. So, multiply by three, and get 195,945,033,039,647,577d6 damage.

Congratulations, you've just done 195 quadrillion damage minimum. Your average damage is 685,807,615,638,766,519 hp.

685 quadrillion hp damage. That ought to blow through most DR. And it's not fire damage (even though TNT is usually thought of that way). It's just plain old force damage.

[Arcanist]

Ice Assassin's wording is iffy if applied here. One of three things happens;
1) It has no effect as it can't copy the creature at all. No result.
2) It has full effect and copies everything. You die outright.
3) It has partial effect. You get a copy without the creature's important/powerful abilities.

The result depends on how you interpret the spell's wording. I'm leaning towards "no result" because there are several reasons and effects that would net a "no result" outcome but only one reason each for the other two.



Epic Spells can't turn you into the creature any more than shapechange can.

Fine. The Shadow Seed from LEoF.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Are the stats available? Where is this thread? I'm curious.

Previous thread is here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370527-If-it-has-stats-%28Challenge-to-the-playground%29) the Stuffy Doll that inspired it is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?256950-3-5-The-Stuffy-Doll-Vs-the-Playground-%28V-1-V-28%29).

The stats for the previous version were (like this one) only released to those who destroyed it, but rockdeworld kindly sent me the main "You die now" ability when the thread died (I have no optimization skills and so rarely take an active part in these threads).

Stuffy Doll was iterative and its stats were publicly visible. rockdeworld's unnamed creature had hidden stats and didn't evolve as it was killed.

[kardar233]

Okay.

There exists a creature whose name is written in the stars of the Medusa Cascade, but we'll call him Tyr. Tyr appeared one day with a Thought Bottle in his hand, drank it, and became what he is now. He is a Flesh Golem Spell-To-Power Erudite20/Metamind10 with Supernatural Transformation who uses a combination of Temporal Reiteration, Font of Power and Timeless body to be completely invulnerable. Furthermore, Tyr has used some Teleport Through Time+True Mind Switch+Thought Bottle shenanigans (detailed in the previous "If it has stats..." thread) to be the cause of his own creation, so his personal timeline is a stable time loop where at all points he is completely invulnerable. Upon learning of this creature's existence he goes and grabs a Sphere of Annihilation, uses Reality Revision (or Wish) to transport himself to the creature and then touches it with the Sphere of Annihilation. If that doesn't work, he'll manifest Metafaculty and Hypercognition to figure out everything he can about the creature to figure out how to kill it.

This is effectively the same entry I made in the last thread without the shenanigans and shortcuts I used to fit the build into 20 levels.

[Norin]

Just in to watch. ;-)

[Necroticplague]

Statting up a character with wealth is a pain, so do excuse me if I speak in vagueness.

Race:Halfling

Levels: dip in Sorcerer and Cleric, and a bunch of martial dips, including enough crusader to get my IL up to 12.

Feats: Leadership, Multitasking, Imbued Healing, and the prereqs for such

Equipment: +1 Ghost Touch Executioner Axe, +1 ghost touch gauntlet.
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Hide Life.
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Sheild Other (x5).
Auto-resetting repeating magic trap of Masochism and Sadism.
Several thousand Ghostly Arm Grafts.

Special: one of my stances is Aura of Chaos.

Me and 5 poor suckers I have leadership for are arranged in a circle.

Round1:I use my standard actions (Multitasking gives me several thousand) to use the trap of hide life on myself and and 4 of the suckers, as well as the Shield other traps on all of them. Those 4 suckers also use their traps of sheild other on me. I use the trap of Sadism and Masochism on myself. I hit myself with one of the several thousand incorporeal touch attacks I now have. This creates an infinite damage loop for me and the 4 suckers with Hide Life and Shield Other up (each of them take half the damage I take, and I take half the damage each of them take. With the 4, this creates a loop). I use another standard to use the Axe to sacrifice the 5th (as per BOVD). With the infinite luck bonus to K:religion, this gives me Wish, which I use to transport me and the 4 suckers to the creature's location. I then use another standard action to use the Executioner's Axe to execute the creature (as per BOVD), with an infinite bonus to the possibly required attack roll and Profession: executioner roll.

If that fails (likely do to it either having to neck for me to chop off or it not counting as helpless), then I use another standard action to cast Cure Light Wounds on myself, triggering Imbued Healing (luck). I then use another standard action to punch the creature with my ghost touch gauntlet, at +infinite to-hit, doing infinite damage.

[Snowbluff]

1) Become Barghest
2) Feast. Double HD. ON defenseless, Ice Assassins of yourself if need be.
3) Simulacrum. Target self.
4) Have simulacrums do 1-3 this ad nauseum.
5) Grab a sandwich.
6) Have super-intelligent and wise simulacrums sort it out.

[Arcanist]

Previous thread is here, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370527-If-it-has-stats-%28Challenge-to-the-playground%29) the Stuffy Doll that inspired it is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?256950-3-5-The-Stuffy-Doll-Vs-the-Playground-%28V-1-V-28%29).

The stats for the previous version were (like this one) only released to those who destroyed it, but rockdeworld kindly sent me the main "You die now" ability when the thread died (I have no optimization skills and so rarely take an active part in these threads).

Stuffy Doll was iterative and its stats were publicly visible. rockdeworld's unnamed creature had hidden stats and didn't evolve as it was killed.

This takes me back. :smallamused:

Apparently the thread was still getting comments even after I abandoned it. I like Omnidroid challenges. They always bring out the thing I love about this forum.

To note: Arcanous beat the final version of Stuffy Doll.

[Kazyan]

Before I try to do this with Incarnum or Vestiges, I shall ask: non-spellcasters need not apply, right?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@firedaemon33:
Major Creation where the creature is fails. Even if it didn't, it would be unaffected by the damage. I mean, come on. There are CR 3 creatures and 4th level spells that can ignore any amount of mundane damage. BTW, neither real-life damage nor DnD damage in general scale linearly. Falling object damage in DnD specifically does - but then it allows a save to avoid.


@kardar233:
Timeless Body makes you immune to all beneficial or harmful effects. This includes temporal reiteration, font of power, Teleport Through Time, Wish spells to get to the creature (as well as weaker planar travel), and any other buffs and effects you have on you. It also makes you immune to further castings of Timeless Body so you got to let the first TB end before applying a new one, thus requiring a moment of vulnerability between Timeless Bodies. You can still walk, make attacks and use powers on others but you are neither invulnerable long-term, nor nearly at full power as beneficial effects fail.



@Arcanist:
The Shadow Seed either replicates an average specimen of a kind of creature you specify (type, subtype, gender, age, appearance, CR), or makes a duplicate of a specific individual that has the full HP, knowledge (class levels, skills, speech) and personality. It doesn't copy special abilities, qualities and other powers the creature may have. The knowledge part can certainly help you fight the original, assuming you could access it. But you have to know which creature you're trying to copy first, if only to set the CR for the spell and designate the individual to be copied.
And nobody has tried to learn what they're fighting yet or even where it is. That strikes me as odd.

[georgie_leech]

The last such challenge had the creator decide that any sort of interaction, including trying to find out what it is via entirely indirect means, as an interaction and thus started his kill sequence. Can you blame people for trying to shoot first?

[Denver]

Going for the Price is Right "I'll put down a dollar, Bob" kind of build:

Rogue 1, take Telling Blow feat, buy a Sickle
Assuming low starting gold of 60 (and change, for the sickle), purchase 3 vials of Aboleth Mucus.
Assuming finding Target is not an issue, engage in combat. Gain surprise round if possible.
Assuming Target requires breathing to live, throw all 3 vials of Aboleth Mucus in succession.
Assuming Target gets hit with one and fails one of their Saves, to make sure they die wait for Target to lose consciousness and coup de grace the heck out of Target, gaining Sneak Attack damage for your Coups de Grace. It might take a while at level one (since the unknown Target is probably pretty tough) - but keep stabbing.

Also assumed: not getting roasted at level one. Lots of luck going on here.

Edit: Knowing that the challenge does not require the Killer to live makes it somewhat different. A kamikaze attempt to kill something is easier than killing it without dying...

[Rubik]

Level 17 seer with the Magic Mantle and all spells and powers as powers known. Manifest Hypercognition and Meetafaculty multiple times to figure out its stats. Since it is indirect, the creature in question has no defense against it. If that doesn't work due to [reasons], use it to figure out who does have information on it. I'll figure out what I'll do after that.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@georgie_leech:
I specifically said the creature doesn't have custom abilities and trying to gather information about it doesn't make it to try and attack you. Actual preparations to fight it, assuming it can find out about them? Then it would respond appropriately with IC abilities.


@Necroticplague:
You and your minions die. Apparently, whatever killed you was neither damage nor a spell effect.


@Snowbluff:
Simulacrums can't become more powerful in any way. Also, you can only eat humanoids so simulacrums of you won't help since they aren't humanoid.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Rubic:
Metafaculty can be defeated by Epic abilities and still needs an (easy) CL check vs nonepic ones. Hypercognition reveals that truly indirect divinations (contact other plane, vision and the like) would help.


@Denver:
You stumble upon IT currently leveling a city. Even from well beyond the city limits, you see IT towering above the buildings below. And you cannot unsee IT - no matter how much you want to. You stand there dazed, staring in fascination as IT simply walks over the city, the very earth shaking with the fury of a massive earthquake at ITs every step, reality screaming at ITs presence. You still stand there as the torn crust of the planet swallows the region whole. You arrive at the 7th Heaven and The Supreme Virtue, Asha Vahishta, welcomes you; a mortal with courage and daring such to surpass that of many an angel. You are given the rare gift of an afterlife of your choosing, or reincarnation with any fate possible for mortal men.


@kazyan:
Depends on the noncaster and their tactics - some might succeed, remote that chance may be. But yeah, casters can get much more powerful than noncasters in TO.

[georgie_leech]

@georgie_leech:
I specifically said the creature doesn't have custom abilities and trying to gather information about it doesn't make it to try and attack you. Actual preparations to fight it, assuming it can find out about them? Then it would respond appropriately with IC abilities.

I didn't mean to imply that you said it would have custom abilities. To my knowledge it wasn't any given ability that let the other do this, just the OP considering anything in the thread to be beginning the challenge, up to and including setting up, say, a Sanctum without any immediate intention of using it against the creature.

Again, not to imply that you would be so... frankly, ridiculous. Just the most recent thread seems to have left a foul taste in everyone's mouth.

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff:
Simulacrums can't become more powerful in any way. Also, you can only eat humanoids so simulacrums of you won't help since they aren't humanoid.

Simulacrums would be copying me (the original with the extra HD). They don't actually have to feed. The resulting critters share my type, because they are creatures (that's what they are), and they are duplicates of me, so they share my types.

[Rubik]

@Rubic:
Metafaculty can be defeated by Epic abilities and still needs an (easy) CL check vs nonepic ones. Hypercognition reveals that truly indirect divinations (contact other plane, vision and the like) would help.If indirect spells will give me info, Metafaculty gives me all the info it says it does in its entry. Then I can use Hypercognition to give me even more info that my subconscious mind picked up.

Then again, since it's not that hard to gain every spell and power in the game, I can easily cast those spells. Or just Shapechange into an elemental wierd and have all the information as a free action.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Rubik:
Metafaculty specifically says it can be defeated by various effects - especially epic ones. The other indirect spells I mentioned do not. Up to you if you want to use them - just saying that Metafaculty, by its own writeup, would fail to work. WIll have to look into the Elemental Weird thing. They're from MMII, right?

@Snowbluff:
Ah, I see. But how could exact copies of yourself, with the exact same abilities (sans item buffs), that are under your absolute command, do something you cannot, and have not commanded? At most they'd help with ritual stuff, multiply your effective actions/round.

[Rubik]

WIll have to look into the Elemental Weird thing. They're from MMII, right?Right.


@Rubik:
Metafaculty specifically says it can be defeated by various effects - especially epic ones. The other indirect spells I mentioned do not. Up to you if you want to use them - just saying that Metafaculty, by its own writeup, would fail to work. My only contention is that if indirect divination effects can garner info, Metafaculty counts under that header. The line about epic abilities being able to overcome it is there only to separate them from NON-epic abilities, none of which can block it. Yes, if there's an epic spell specifically designed to hose Metafaculty, it will hose Metafaculty. But it needs to either specify Metafaculty or all [indirect] forms of information gathering.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Seeing the creature itself as if by remote viewing is part of the effects of Metafaculty - things that would block that would block MF if it fails on its CL check. Also, Metafaculty requires having seen the creature at least once before attempting it. You can't use it to find something for the first time anyway.

[Rubik]

Seeing the creature itself as if by remote viewing is part of the effects of Metafaculty - things that would block that would block MF if it fails on its CL check. Also, Metafaculty requires having seen the creature at least once before attempting it. You can't use it to find something for the first time anyway.I can see that.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Again, not to imply that you would be so... frankly, ridiculous. Just the most recent thread seems to have left a foul taste in everyone's mouth.
The creature can do some pretty big stuff with its IC abilities - the challenger deaths so far and the casual destruction of an entire region would point that out. But as far as running the challenge goes, I'm trying to keep stuff as fair as possible. I.e. treating each attempt as legitimate encounters between you and the creature, playing out in-character all the stuff you and the creature would do specifically for said encounter, not using infinite loops and so on.

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff:
Ah, I see. But how could exact copies of yourself, with the exact same abilities (sans item buffs), that are under your absolute command, do something you cannot, and have not commanded? At most they'd help with ritual stuff, multiply your effective actions/round.

It's not a matter of doing something I cannot... I just want to leave it to these guys. They have more intelligence than humanly possible. They have good wisdom scores. I tell them to coordinate via telepathic bond or something, explore all of the options with their absurd numbers and 9th level spellcasting (being me, as least 1 or them is doing Aleax/Shadesteel golem cheese, teleporting into the past to destroy it before it exists/find out everything about it, or gating in a black hole to destroy the nuisance planet for good), and join me for lunch when they are done.

[Rubik]

If this were me personally doing this, I'd definitely be an aleax with lots and lots of hiveminded bodies, ASAP. Of course, I'd also use the Curse of Lycanthropy/thought bottle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17843707&postcount=4) trick to boost my level into the mid-thousands and use [epic] illithid savant to gain every class and racial ability I could ever want.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I just want to leave it to these guys.
That's an issue with all kinds of RPGs though. Both challengers and the creature probably have far-beyond-human ability scores and thus be able to plan far better, if they wanted to. Letting it up to them, there would only be three outcomes. If the PC could win they would do so, probably in a way that made the TO boards look tame. If the monster could win, ditto. If both could win, it would come down to luck - not so much about rolling as to what plan each one finally commited.

But because we can't do that (and doing it would be meaningless even if we could) it's up to players and DM to run their characters.



@Rubik:
Being an Aleax isn't an option. Only deities can make them, only once per creature. If they defeat you, you're gone, if you defeat them they're gone, so they only exist long enough for a single fight. As for gaining infinite levels via lycanthropy, that still adds to your ECL, the given HD aren't very useful compared to most classes and eventually you'd hit the cap of level 100.

EDIT: on the Aleax thingy, obviously you can make them if you're a deity yourself.

[Snowbluff]

Divination to ascertain the location of a black hole.
Gates to its location (in it's path).
Suck planet into black hole. :smalltongue:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Gate is concentration and close range. You open it, you're instantly slain by the black hole if you're close enough for it to do anything to a planet, Gate closes. Planet is going to suffer some tidal stress potentially but probably nothing more, depending of the outcome of (Limit: g->∞) / (Limit: t->0), your HP and defenses and the planet's composition/integrity. Maybe some local damage?


Of course, destroying the planet isn't going to do much to destroy IT. CR 3 creatures and 2nd level spells can negate that kind of mundane-force shenanigans. Most powerful creatures require magic or at least a magic weapon to kill.

[Extra Anchovies]

Of course, destroying the planet isn't going to do much to destroy IT. CR 3 creatures and 2nd level spells can negate that kind of mundane-force shenanigans. Most powerful creatures require magic or at least a magic weapon to kill.

Since you keep referencing it, I'm curious: what level 2 spell renders you immune to mundane damage (as you have been implying)?

[Rubik]

Since you keep referencing it, I'm curious: what level 2 spell renders you immune to mundane damage (as you have been implying)?Delay Death (level 3) + Beastland Ferocity (level 1) is an average level of 2?

[Werephilosopher]

Use spell DC-boosting and caster level-boosting shenanigans, then wish the beast into the Far Realm.


@Rubik:
Being an Aleax isn't an option. Only deities can make them, only once per creature. If they defeat you, you're gone, if you defeat them they're gone, so they only exist long enough for a single fight. As for gaining infinite levels via lycanthropy, that still adds to your ECL, the given HD aren't very useful compared to most classes and eventually you'd hit the cap of level 100.

EDIT: on the Aleax thingy, obviously you can make them if you're a deity yourself.

So tick off a deity enough to get them to make an aleax of you - shouldn't be too hard to accomplish long before the challenge begins if you can be up to level 100 - then... I think fusion, then mind seed? I think that's how the trick works.


Gate is concentration and close range. You open it, you're instantly slain by the black hole if you're close enough for it to do anything to a planet, Gate closes. Planet is going to suffer some tidal stress potentially but probably nothing more, depending of the outcome of (Limit: g->∞) / (Limit: t->0), your HP and defenses and the planet's composition/integrity. Maybe some local damage?

Have at least three levels of Cosmic Descryer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/cosmicDescryer.htm), and the gate lasts a whole day.


Of course, destroying the planet isn't going to do much to destroy IT. CR 3 creatures and 2nd level spells can negate that kind of mundane-force shenanigans. Most powerful creatures require magic or at least a magic weapon to kill.

A black hole shouldn't be considered force damage, or even damage; just "get too close, and you die."

[Rubik]

@Rubik:
Being an Aleax isn't an option. Only deities can make them, only once per creature. If they defeat you, you're gone, if you defeat them they're gone, so they only exist long enough for a single fight. As for gaining infinite levels via lycanthropy, that still adds to your ECL, the given HD aren't very useful compared to most classes and eventually you'd hit the cap of level 100.

EDIT: on the Aleax thingy, obviously you can make them if you're a deity yourself.Once an aleax exists, it's easy to make an ice assassin or whatever of it. And defeating an aleax really isn't any more difficult than defeating yourself, once you're high enough level, especially if you know its coming, so dumb down your build to something easily crushable (but which will work nicely when combined with the build you want), "convince" a god to throw an aleax at you, and then set yourself up to immediately change your build to be something useful when you know it's in play. Then make an ice assassin of your aleax, change your build, merge with the ice assassin via Fusion, manifest Astral Seed, and crush your foe into paste. Commit suicide and come back as a nice gestalt that's utterly impervious to attacks of any kind.

Or just make your own god through various means (and there are many and varied means) and have him make you an aleax, at a time of your choosing.

And yes, the lycanthrope HD will be very useful, primarily for turning into actual class levels. Note that you boost your level using CoL, store your XP total, cure your lycanthropy, then restore your XP total, gaining levels in whatever you like. And technically there's no limit to just how high level you can go. The only limit is how long you're willing to keep turning yourself into a were-tyrannosaurus or whatever and then curing yourself.

[Phelix-Mu]

Anything that involves convincing a god to do something is basically a silly idea. Gods are DM stand-ins, and any DM that allows diplomancy or any other manipulation to work on them is kind of defeating the purpose.

So unless you are sidestepping the issue of the god having to be involved, I'd say aleaxes are just a cute TO trick that breaks down once you are actually trying to interact with the world (as per this challenge, an interface between a conceptual DM and a bunch of proposed pcs in which much of the game world behaves as though in an actual game, not a TO exercise).

[Snowbluff]

Gate is concentration and close range. You open it, you're instantly slain by the black hole if you're close enough for it to do anything to a planet, Gate closes. Planet is going to suffer some tidal stress potentially but probably nothing more, depending of the outcome of (Limit: g->∞) / (Limit: t->0), your HP and defenses and the planet's composition/integrity. Maybe some local damage?


Of course, destroying the planet isn't going to do much to destroy IT. CR 3 creatures and 2nd level spells can negate that kind of mundane-force shenanigans. Most powerful creatures require magic or at least a magic weapon to kill.

Feather fall. I (a simulacrum) can't approach the hole any faster than a fixed rate. The hole itself will be approaching the gate itself, and the other end will be set on the surface. Ideally, killing doesn't matter, as long as the target lacks a method to unpin himself from the surface or his objective is no longer obtainable. Or the first touches earth with the other end resting in a gravity-free/weird gravity plane, with the casters there, one of them placing the gate back in front of the black hole back in the material plane.

Now, I don't what happens when the hole hits the gate. Does a 20 foot diameter by 5 km mass slam into the planet? Does it get stuck? Did I miraculously find a 20 foot wide one? How fast does the one gate have to be moving relative to it for it to shear? With enough gates, can I shear the entire mass? Shearing probably would be needed for this to work with no gravity, right?

And if that doesn't work, teleport through time so we didn't destroy the ecosystem. If it does, teleport through time/celerity/greater teleport to rescue the inhabitants.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

aleax:
They're constructs, not living creatures. You can't copy them with Ice Assassin, True Mind Switch with them even if you could, Fuse or Assimilate them and the like.


@Rubik:
Lycanthropy only gives you racial HD. It doesn't increase your experience total. Savage Species even uses Lycanthropy as a specific example on what happens to your xp when you go through sudden ECL increases. And what happens is that if you're a 5th level character with 10.000 xp and get bitten by a wererat becoming ECL 8, you'd be gaining your next level after 26.000 xp to cover the whole difference between the 5th level you used to be and 9th level; the transformation itself leaves your xp total unchanged.
So no cheating XP gains by boosting ECL, storing xp in thought bottle, removing the ECL boost then drinking free xp from the bottle.


@Werephilosopher:
1) After using Wish, roll d100. In a roll of 1-70, nothing happens. In a roll of 71-100, you are cast to the Far Realm instead of the creature. (same results as with trying to kill the creature with an Epic Spell, except getting to the Far Realms is punishment enough and there's no reason for the creature to curse you)
2) A black hole normally exerts non-infinite force to its surroundings (in fact, it exerts as much as a star of the same mass). Because such force is relatively evenly applied to small objects/creatures, they'll simply be in a state of free-fall instead of taking damage - due to temporal shenanigans once they cross the event horizon, they'll be in said state of freefall for all eternity for some points of view. Sufficiently large objects such as planets OTOH have some portions of their mass be significantly closer to the hole than others and thus the forces are not even - this causes physical damage we call tidal stress and tends to rip the planet apart. You don't need a black hole to do that though - Jupiter has done it to quite a few planet-sized bodies in our own solar system for example.
In DnD, someone with Feather Fall can avoid falling very fast, someone who levitates or is incorporeal can ignore the effects altogether. The rules on high gravity give only very low levels of damage anyway.


@Snowbluff:
The gate complicates things with how gravity propagates and might do some funky things to the planet. The black hole itself has no dimensions - it can pass through, assuming the gate remains. (only its event horizon has a radius and it isn't an object). So congratulations, you destroyed the planet and have to find a new one for the population to live in.
Of course, the black hole can't kill the creature so it gets to the new planet, continuing on its crusade to destroy the Multiverse. Except now you gave it an idea on how to do it faster. :smallsigh:

[Hamste]

I do what Denver did to earn that reincarnation and choose the fate of killing the creature.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Denver earned that by choosing to actually face the creature with a level 1 character, with an actual plan and set build that involved combat actions. I.e for basically having cojones with high enough enhancement bonus to count as a major artifact. And the reward was for a fate that is possible - lvl 1 characters could never hope to kill IT.

[Rubik]

aleax:
They're constructs, not living creatures. You can't copy them with Ice Assassin, True Mind Switch with them even if you could, Fuse or Assimilate them and the like.According to Ice Assassin, it creates a living, breathing version of the aleax.

Also, type-changing magic is a thing. PAO, Metamorphosis, Shapechange, Aberrate, etc. Not hard.


@Rubik:
Lycanthropy only gives you racial HD. It doesn't increase your experience total. Savage Species even uses Lycanthropy as a specific example on what happens to your xp when you go through sudden ECL increases. And what happens is that if you're a 5th level character with 10.000 xp and get bitten by a wererat becoming ECL 8, you'd be gaining your next level after 26.000 xp to cover the whole difference between the 5th level you used to be and 9th level; the transformation itself leaves your xp total unchanged.
So no cheating XP gains by boosting ECL, storing xp in thought bottle, removing the ECL boost then drinking free xp from the bottle.So lose a level and cast Restoration.

Voila.

[Vaz]

Once an aleax exists, it's easy to make an ice assassin or whatever of it.

Minor correction. If one is going to exist in the future or has existed in the past (or at any other period of time in the wonderful wibbly wobbly time system of D&D), then with the existence of Teleport Through Time (available by wishing up a scroll), then it doesn't need to be existing then, or there.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Ice Assassin also states the copy has the original's abilities, which means CON - for any copy of nonliving creatures. Living creature without constitution score is dead or doesn't exist in DnD rules.



As for Restoration, ECL is not the same thing as experience level (in the case of such transformations, according to savage species). Restoration restores experience levels lost to level drain, and only a single one at a time. In our example 5th level character becoming an ECL 8 wererat, his experience level remains 5. If he's level-drained, his experience level drops to 4 and ECL to 7. Restoration gets him back to experience level 5 (his previous one) and his ECL again becomes 8.

[Vaz]

Ice Assassin also states the copy has the original's abilities, which means CON - for any copy of nonliving creatures. Living creature without constitution score is dead or doesn't exist in DnD rules.

from Constitution;

"Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run)."

So it creates a living breathing Con -. So it creates a living breathing, nonliving creature without a body or metabolism, and is immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless... etc etc

[ranagrande]

A Dragonwrought Kobold Ghost Archivist/Beast Heart Adept/Loremaster/ Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis whose spirit will not rest until he, personally, has observed every entity in the multiverse, seeks IT out.

What does he learn about IT with ridiculously optimized knowledge skills, Lore, Monster Lore, and Draconic Knowledge?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A creature can't be both living and nonliving. A spell that tries to make something impossible in the rules while contradicting itself would simply fail. Try to win the fight within the rules, guys.




@ranagrande:
How high knowledge checks are we talking about? +60? +100? +200? Infinite?

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff:
The gate complicates things with how gravity propagates and might do some funky things to the planet. The black hole itself has no dimensions - it can pass through, assuming the gate remains. (only its event horizon has a radius and it isn't an object). So congratulations, you destroyed the planet and have to find a new one for the population to live in.
Of course, the black hole can't kill the creature so it gets to the new planet, continuing on its crusade to destroy the Multiverse. Except now you gave it an idea on how to do it faster. :smallsigh:

Perefect! Roll knowledge, critter. Meanwhile, I'll use some crazy cleric skill buffing spells and roll diplomacy.

[ranagrande]

Let's say 300 for the knowledge skills, although it could easily be higher, especially with epic spellcasting. The other checks (Lore, Monster Lore, and Draconic Knowledge) would be much lower.

Also, he's got Clearsight (True Seeing that also works on mundane disguises) and Analyze Dweomer at will. If he gets the chance, he'll also cast Vision.

[Vaz]

A creature can't be both living and nonliving. A spell that tries to make something impossible in the rules while contradicting itself would simply fail. Try to win the fight within the rules, guys.




@ranagrande:
How high knowledge checks are we talking about? +60? +100? +200? Infinite?

To get knowledge checks that high, assume it is an Outsider with assume natural ability for a visilight charisma drain, a level in marshal for motivate intelligence, and a point in every knowledge skill. It picks up a skin of proteus, and proceeds to get NI charisma. It drains charisma from everything it grapples, adding it all for as much time as necessary.

(Done via Ice Assassin, naturally).

It it able to meet a NI+11 Knowledge Check by taking 10, so for every 5pts that this NI+11 knowledge check beats your HD i'll need some information.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Only works if the victim is a humanoid with a charisma higher than your own so you can't actually get infinite charisma. OTOH there are far easier, faster ways to get infinite skill checks - and ridiculous bonuses to ability scores for that matter - so I see no issue with this


Currently writing the info that is possible to learn about the creature via skills and pertinent to the fight. You wouldn't want to know what it ate for breakfast afte... err, scratch that; you definitely would. It ate Thoth. :smalltongue:

[Vaz]

No it doesn't. That is what the visilight itself chooses. As someone changed into one, feel free to choose what you desire.

regardless of how easy or difficult it is to attain that (a feat, accessible via item, a la+0 outsider race, an auto resetting trap of PAO turning grains of sand into humans, in a scroll of genesis'd plane with a 10^10:1 time trait), i have an infinite knowledge check.

Honestly, with an infinite charisma, i can rush a diplomacy check and turn you friendly, bluff you into removing your inevitable immunity to mind affecting (as per the rules for lowering immunity) and then diplo you fanatical to me/mindrape you.

The knowledge is needed purely to ensure i'm not gibbed by anything upon arrival.

[JustIgnoreMe]

So what have we learned about this creature's abilities so far? We know it only has by-the-book RAW abilities, no custom ones, and we know that all spells cast seem to have a chance to either fail or be reflected on the caster (even Epic spells).

To me this looks like some kind of Epic Spell Resistance (is that a thing?) at 70%, and Epic Spell Turning (is that a thing?) for any spell that gets through.

The creature also has some sort of Curse ability, but the OP has said this thing can choose not to use it, so it might be a spell.

We also know the OP has little tolerance for standard RAW TO tricks and rules that they don't work.

This thread seems to be going the same way as the last one, just a little quicker.

[Phelix-Mu]

To be fair, this isn't really a TO exercise. It's a limited-scope arena where we jump right into the encounter with a pre-made baddie and w/e the character build proposed may be, subsequent to research/scouting attempts. There is a DM; it's the OP, and therefor it's not theoretical. We know what works and what doesn't.

Now, there is an intention to stick to RAW, but RAW in any non TO sense is implicitly full of the need for interpretation to keep it honest and stop silliness like ladders-to-WBLmancy, which is cool on paper but which would be very silly in the context of actually trying to determine the outcome of a fight (because once everyone realized that ladders were cheaper than firewood, they'd stop buying firewood).

So let's deal with the situation as it exists, and take the OP at his/her word instead of quite so much nitpicking.....

Actually, no one is going to stop nitpicking, but my other points stand.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Absolutely agree: I wasn't trying to nitpick, just setting out what we knew.

OK, so this thing ("IT") destroyed a city and cracked the mantle. That, I think, will have set off the Portfolio Sense of at least one god/goddess regardless of the setting.

So, say, 16 weeks before the city is destroyed, a god receives warning of this, and sends a message to all of his followers, including a 1st level Paladin.

What does my god tell me, DM?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

OK, results of knowledge checks and attempts to get info so far. Took me some time to write the creature's first overt action in a way that IC knowledge checks would be useful and would not be an arbitrary plot hook by the DM but rather follow naturally from the creature's abilities, actions and intentions.

Each numbered hint/info reflects one or more successes in the relevant skills above DC 100, up to about DC 300. Further successes than that would start revealing info less relevant to that skill, that are revealed by other skills at lower DCs. There's enough stuff here for someone getting successes up to a check of 800. If you guys want more info and/or for other skills once you digest these, you'll have to wait a bit. It literally took hours to translate a statblock and a fight into that much IC knowledge descriptions.




Knowledge: History/Local, indirect divinations or Gather Information (the battle)
1) What at first appeared to be a truly ginormous dragon appeared over Mulhorand.
2) Eyewitness reports/visions have the dragon at anywhere from 120 to 600 feet long.
3) Eyewitness reports/visions have the dragon at any known dragon color, including a transparent/invisible visage or a multicolored prism.
4) The apparent dragon proceeded to use powerful breath weapons and natural attacks to attack a city.
5) Powerful mulhorandi wizards (17th-25th lvl) scrambled to the battlefield and attempted to stop it.
6) The creature slew all three dozen of them in a single sweeping melee blow (!)
7) The creature proceeded to apparently vanish.
8) A massive earthquake struck the city, leveling many buildings and killing thousands.
9) Heroes scrambled to the area to help. Anyone getting near the ground was struck dead outright.
10) The ground begun to extend, rocks spewing forth to reach heroes in the air. Anyone the ground reached died.
11) Thoth, mulhorandi god of knowledge, arrived at the scene - or one of his more powerful avatars.
12) The terrain, who apparently the creature had somehow infused or turned into, reshaped itself into a horrible beast, cloaked in smoke and ruin. Thoth and the beast did battle.
13) Thoth's mighty magic failed to affect the beast. It passed through it, was reflected, deflected or ineffectual.
14) Thoth's divine assaults and artifact staff dealt light to moderate damage.
15) Thoth's attempt at trickery - including illusion effigy and construct creations - failed as the creature destroyed them seemingly with a touch.
16) Thoth's form was finally destroyed by repeated blows. The god immediately reformed but was forced to flee.
17) The mulhorandi pantheon entered the fray. All of them together were an even match for the Beast.
18) The Beast and the gods fought for five minutes. Neither had enough power to slay the other, apparently.
19) During the fight, tremendous earthquakes and natural disasters struck all of Mulhorand.
20) As the capital city of Heliogabalus was swallowed by tectonic upheavals, the Mulhorandi pantheon was forced to flee from the fight.



Knowledge: Arcana, Spellcraft (magic)
1) The creature is not using normal magic to change shape as the shapes are beyond it.
2) The creature is probably not using epic magic to change shape as the changes are too numerous - it'd have run out of Epic Slots.
3) The creature can dodge all kinds of attacks. This isn't a spell.
4) The creature reflects magic it can't dodge: this IS a magical effect that functions like spell turning that never runs out of spell levels. It could be either the result of Epic Magic or an artifact-level item.
5) The creature struck aside rays, orbs, ranged touch spells and normal projectiles. This isn't a spell.
6) The creature suppressed most spells and items around it.
7) The wizards' spells/items were suppressed but many of Thoth's and its artifacts' weren't - this indicates antimagic, to which deities are not subject.
8) All spells -even Thoth's or epic ones- that were abjurations, transmutations, divinations or conjurations around the creature failed. Thoth using Miracle and Wish to copy such effects worked normally.
9) This indicates limited magic for such effects.
10) Thoth's magical armor layers were shredded as if they didn't exist.
11) Thoth's magical concealments were ignored as if they didn't exist.
12) The creature could keep Thoth distracted and unable to cast defensively within its ginormous reach.
13) This indicates that the creature can perform mageslaying tactics.
14) The creature's ability to cause widescale destruction is beyond normal magic.
15) The creature's ability to cause widescale destruction would require greater-ritual-level Epic Magic that the creature apparently has no need of.
16) The creature can use various spell effects without being hindered by its own or another's antimagic.
17) Protections against magic apparently have no effect on the creature's powers.
18) Protections against specific types of attacks such as deathward work normally against such attacks from the creature, if they aren't first suppressed or removed by its other powers.
19) Fire created by the creature can often ignore immunity to fire.
20) The creature isn't outright immune to physical harm but it gets considerably less damage from it than it should, a defense scaling with the level of damage, and isn't subject to mundane harm. That effect is similar to spells such as ghostform, starmantle and the like.



Perception, Sense Motive, Martial Lore (seeing and understanding the tactics)
1) The creature is not a mindless beast - it's extremely perceptive and forceful and less so but still immensely intelligent.
2) However chaotic its tactics, it aims at specific goals.
3) It originally approached as a dragon to downplay its power.
4) It is using its tremendous size and speed to conceal the fact that its slaying and suppression effects are not touch effects.
5) The suppression effects extend 20 feet from the creature.
6) The slaying effect extends 200 feet but only applies in the form of the terrible, tentacled monster thing.
7) It is using its shapeshifting abilities to defeat attempts to guess at its actual type and abilities.
8) Its relatively slow escalation of destruction was meant to draw the attention of victims before its power "increased" and it slew them.
9) Not showing every ability from the beginning was to prevent victims from thinking up appropriate defenses and tactics before joining the fight.
10) This indicates that the right defenses and/or tactics can harm it, or prevent it from attaining its goals.
11) The creature appears more powerful and tactically savvy defensively than offensively.
12) It thus commits to a fight with slow escalation to draw it out until an opponent makes a mistake and it can clobber them.
13) If an opponent doesn't make a mistake, it tries to adapt to them until they're ineffectual.
14) If that isn't possible, it will probably try attrition.
15) Such tactics indicate that it doesn't need or have limited resources.
16) Opponents haven't actually managed to push it to its limits yet.
17) The fight with the gods was not as it seemed - if it could even momentarily slay Thoth, it could have done so to the others.
18) Thus defeating them in combat wasn't its goal - collateral damage and widescale destruction was.
19) Picking the mulhorandi pantheon, who have bitter enemies in most surrounding nations and aren't globally worshipped, allowed it to directly oppose them without involving other pantheons against it yet.
20) It currently seems content to remain in the highly-damaged Mulhorand, destroying temples and centers of government and unraveling the nation's infrastructure. This tactic indicates personal enmity against the Mulhorandi and has many believing IT is an agent of Imaskaran vengeance. It is highly likely however that such indications have been deliberately planted.



Knowledge: Religion/Planes (origins, divine responce)
1) Attempting to guess at the creature's nature is complicated by ITs shapeshifting.
2) It has many and varied auras and widescale effects hinting at outsider nature.
3) It can fight gods at their level, directly. That indicates major abomination or otherwise cosmic power.
4) There are no legends or accounts of IT, in any religion or archive.
5) This indicates extraplanar origin as no creature of such power could remain unknown on Toril for long.
6) This also indicates it is ITs first foray into Toril.
7) Potential origin is beyond Torilspace entirely.
8) No intervention by Ao despite the massive upheaval is alarming.
9) This further indicates a creature originating beyond Ao's authority.
10) Most likely origin is the Far Realms or another Crystal Sphere entirely.
11) No prophesies hinting at the creature's arrival is worrying.
12) This indicates its arrival was no part of divine plan.
13) This indicates that either the creature arrived on its own from Outside, or someone called it.
14) The gods not being prepared to face it means it has the ability to conceal its acts from them, similar to some abominations, Elder Evils and other such Powers.
15) The gods appearing after mortal heroes in the vicinity of the fight means their attention had to be drawn in by mortal action deliberately.
16) IT being able to send a pantheon into retreat via massive collateral damage indicates IT knows that even greater powers in this sphere, who originated before mortals, are now dependent on mortal worshipp.
17) ITs knowledge of Toril despite its very recent arrival indicates its arrival can't actually have been recent.
18) Thus it must have had time to work at least some rudimentary planning and recconaissance before it started ravaging the plane.
19) ITs ability to ravage its surroundings to such extent reveal at least some deity-level powers and attacks.
20) ITs ability to suppress some forms of attack indicate at least some planar trait manipulation.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Excellent! So we now know we're on Toril (which I don't think was stated before), and the OP has also implied that Anathematic Secrecy is in use, AND that it interacts with Portfolio Sense in a way that means gods get no notice of IT, nor any notice that anything is going to happen (implying that Portfolio Sense is being spoofed with fake data, rather than being blocked).

So the first any god knows about IT is when one of their followers sees IT... although... huh. How would they know that without Portfolio Sense, which is being spoofed? Unless one of the followers used Commune or something to directly contact the god.

Did we get a ruling on the Elemental Weird ability? That's not divine, as I recall, so Anathematic Secrecy doesn't work.

So basically, nobody gets any prep time as currently there is no way to have advanced knowledge of IT's appearance.

Forced Dream time?

Edit to add:
8) All spells -even Thoth's or epic ones- that were abjurations, transmutations, divinations or conjurations around the creature failed. Thoth using Miracle and Wish to copy such effects worked normally.

So the Salient Divine Ability: Alter Reality was working just fine?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

If Portofolio Sense is blocked by Anathematic Secrecy or other Powers, a god will know something is wrong if it interferes with receiving information about present actions because until the block applied, it could use remote sensing to witness the blocked events. Thus it knows where the block is pretty much outright (here's an area I can't sense!), unless distracted by other events (they can only remote-sense finite number of areas). Also, it can still receive prayers from worshippers so if some worshipper prays about it, the god gets some info.

The elemental weird's Prescience is (su) and/or allows a save if the spell has one.

Alter Reality is a divine ability, not magic. Defenses against magic don't apply to it.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Sorry, I think I'm confused.

If Portfolio Sense is blocked, not spoofed, then all relevant gods have 1 week or more's warning that IT will attack. Portfolio Sense kicks in on future events.

Edit: I'm sorry, I misremembered. It only kicks in for future events for Greater Deities, with Divine Rank 16+.

So 16 weeks' notice for a Greater Deity.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Pfft, a pantheon can match this beast? Now we know a 20th-level wizard can do it. :smallamused: What were those wizards that got one-shotted doing vulnerable to anything, anyway?

I jest. This is interesting. I probably lack the op-fu to make a dent here, but I'll try anyway.

(By the way, a lot of people have been mentioning stuff like Consumptive Field loops and NI skill checks, but I thought looping to arbitrary amounts of anything was banned from this contest?)

[OldTrees1]

OK, results of knowledge checks and attempts to get info so far. Took me some time to write the creature's first overt action in a way that IC knowledge checks would be useful and would not be an arbitrary plot hook by the DM but rather follow naturally from the creature's abilities, actions and intentions.

Each numbered hint/info reflects one or more successes in the relevant skills above DC 100, up to about DC 300. Further successes than that would start revealing info less relevant to that skill, that are revealed by other skills at lower DCs. There's enough stuff here for someone getting successes up to a check of 800. If you guys want more info and/or for other skills once you digest these, you'll have to wait a bit. It literally took hours to translate a statblock and a fight into that much IC knowledge descriptions.

Thank you!
I know it can be assumed but in this case it needed to be said.

This made the challenge much more concrete and you did so via a very enjoyable read.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Thank you!
I know it can be assumed but in this case it needed to be said.

This made the challenge much more concrete and you did so via a very enjoyable read.

Here here! Total agreement from me.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

If they don't sense a future event, they don't get the convenient "use remote sensing to see what happens" confirmation they can do for present events or getting indirect information from receiving prayers. And given just how many powers are at their Rank or higher, and how many locations a Power can block at once, and how many abominations/elder evils are in Toril, there's at any time hundreds of holes in any deity's future-vision. One more "hole" isn't automatically alarming. It could be just another deity of equal rank wanting some privacy. Then again, it might not. :smallamused:



Arbitrary amounts of anything isn't banned - only stuff that would make stats and thus the challenge meaningless. For example, you might have a bazillion bonuses to a Knowledge skill but things depending on skill rank still require you to have a rank, and if someone dispels/removes/suppresses your bonus, the base stats are still relevant.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What were those wizards that got one-shotted doing vulnerable to anything, anyway?
See "tactics". The creature appeared as a dragon. Someone thought it was actually a dragon due to little evidence to the contrary. You can't assume everything is a greater abomination about to eat your face, you know. Otherwise you spend your days trying to disjoin the "disguises" your kitchen implements are "wearing".


Of course, you guys know it is a bit worse than a dragon.

[JustIgnoreMe]

But they do sense the blank spot in the future, and it's a brand new blank spot in the heart of their power base. I have trouble believing a Greater Deity with an INT and WIS of superhuman levels would fail to react to that.

For example, I consider myself to have only Human INT and WIS, but if I suddenly stopped being able to see the colour red, I would immediately go to see a doctor to see if it was curable. If I got 16 weeks' notice that I was going to suddenly stop being able to see the colour red, I would still go to the doctor in the hope that it was preventable.

(All of this us basically pre-amble that leads into how my character even knows IT exists, since a DC100+ Knowledge/Gather Info roll is needed to even know the city has been destroyed, unless he hears about it through DM's discretion.)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

And what would they do about it? It's not as if they could ever see said future event in advance to prepare for it and being caught in ground zero of something that could block their power might be a bad idea - surprise attack is how Cyric killed Mystra. Better tell a few clerics/paladins/whatever to go investigate or simply arrange for a few mortals to witness the event first and then arrive if/when appropriate.


BTW, it's a DC 100 check to know it destroyed a city as soon as the fight ended - it's only been 10 minutes since the initial appearrance. I'm assuming here characters want to be involved ASAP.

[Kazyan]

Can we assume this information is getting spread around?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Sure, but it'll take time and it will be among a bazillion other panicked rumors. Someone contacting the gods with magic could ask them, of course. Sufficiently powerful casters could have observed from afar without using divinations (scrying only covers 10-ft-radius; not nearly enough to see the fight. But there are other ways). Skillmonkeys could try to shift through rumors with Gather Info and the like, or talk to their network of arcane/planar/divine/nature contacts.


Someone who gets the facts could make sure to distribute them via whatever means available - the gods are already doing some of that for their champions, among all the damage control they got to do.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Nothing in the following post is meant to be any kind if personal attack. This challenge, like the others, intrigues me: I like to see high-op theoretical situation play, especially involving god-killing abominations. I also like to see how other DMs roleplay divine or similarly powered beings, singly and in pantheons, both in terms of stats and in terms of motivations.

That said: what would they do about it? What would they DO about it? You're the DM: YOU tell ME what they would do about it. What they DID about it, and what they told their followers afterwards.

If I were a Greater Deity with 16 weeks notice that something, probably an Elder Evil or a Deity from an enemy pantheon, was going to do something worth hiding in a city where my worshippers live, one of my first actions would be Salient Divine Ability: Alter Reality zero-cost Wish to divine what was going to happen.

That particular combo wouldn't have worked against rockdeworld's creature, or Stuffy Doll if I remember right, but if it works against IT then the gods of Toril had plenty of time to work out what was going to happen and, if necessary, brief their followers to be ready.

Now, you're the DM. You can rule that they didn't do that because they were distracted by IT's minions elsewhere, or that they did but it didn't work, or that they got false information because Ao intervened, or anything you like. But you need to make that call. You can't just handwave "the gods themselves were surprised": IT either needs the RAW stats to surprise them, or Ao needs to do it.

For what it's worth, I seem to remember that originating from the Far Realms is a good way to avoid existing in the past, so while Portfolio Sense could tell something was going to happen, if IT is from the Far Realms it couldn't be targetted until it entered the Prime Material Plane. That might well logically prevent most scrying from working (nothing to target).

On the other hand, all that would achieve is a Deitic Kill Squad at ground zero at zero hour. Team Solar on steroids for a start, buffed by 16 weeks of free Wishes, ready to collect whatever data is needed to create an Aleax of IT. Heck, as we're in Toril, Manipulate Form is on the table quite easily.

I can't see any situatiin where the gods would not be dealing this themselves, unless it is impossible for anything they can do to have any impact... which, given the limits if D&D gods, seems unlikely.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I actually ran an older version of the IT several years ago in a straight fight with the Dicefreaks' version of Mystra, Thoth, Tyr, Pelor and Bahamut, run by another Dicefreaks member. I used that fight to adjudicate how the Mulhorandi pantheon's battle with this version would go, mechanically-speaking.

For in-character reasons gods can't abandon their duties for prolonged times or spend time in the material plane in full power, reference Time of Troubles. Also, they're much stronger in their domains and eventually they'll prepare enough to oppose it. But they can't commit resources without getting at least some info.

As for the tactics you proposed, most of them would fail. Manipulate form is an issue - but not in the way you think.


Metagame reasons for not having the gods win this yet is a) give the challengers time to try their characters first and b) give the challengers the opportunity to try running a deity against this first. I did give that maximum ECL of 100 after all.

[ben-zayb]

I apologize in advance for admitting that I'm far more interested with the fluff/story behind this being, than the challenge itself.:smalltongue:


Still, this looks as though Pandorym (Imaskari fluff, Seal of Binding, Incorporeality) got access to a protean body and copied at least Ragnorra (Anathemic Secrecy, what seemed like the Worldskin), or something to that effect. Maybe a dash of the Leviathan due to the destruction fetish, but then again every elder evil seem bent on just unmaking creation. *shrugs*

[Extra Anchovies]

I apologize in advance for admitting that I'm far more interested with the fluff/story behind this being, than the challenge itself.:smalltongue:

Indeed. Congratulations Belial; you've created a "Challenge to the Playground" that also has more than enough story to make it worth following despite my lack of op-fu.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The flavor is unusual. There's a story behind how IT came to Toril and there's at least two beings that know it but they aren't in play yet.

Mechanics-wise, I chose an abomination that hasn't been statted before so as not to be limited to the weak WotC crunch. Do note that this could mean any of the statless Elder Evils like Pandorym or Leviathan (the book only has aspects of them, not the real thing) given stats appropriate to their power level, or something else from another source - I'd like to keep you guys guessing.



If there continues to be more interest in the flavor side of things rather than running battles against this thing straight, I might make it a campaign instead. Start at level 20 with any level of optimization that is still playable, gain more power/knowledge/artifacts/divine favors against it till the group is ready to beat it at around level 50-60 or so.

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, some of its abilities seem a little Zeitgeist-esque. They're probably not the most important ones...but it does sound like something of that sort is in the mix.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Are you guys waiting for any update from me or has interest in this died out?

[Werephilosopher]

I use any trick to get a ton of ice assassins of myself, and any trick to get them infinite wishes, which they use to provide themselves with hundreds of contingencies of revivify plus other buffs, and they all spam the Beast - half using an epic spell duplicating mordenkainen's disjunction from any range and across planar boundaries, half using an epic spell duplicating an enhanced intensified hellfire storm from any range and across planar boundaries. What happens?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) What ways do you have of observing the creature across planar boundaries? Unless you have some, you won't know the result of the attack. Not immediately, anyway.

2) What ways do you have of getting an early warning in case you are attacked back? Foresight for example would send you an immediate warning of imminent danger right after you perform your attack.

3) If you have neither of the above, you die. All your copies of Ice Assassin go free (nobody to control them) and wreack havok trying to kill each other.




Depending on what kind of warning spells/effects/whatever you had, I can give you appropriate info.

[Werephilosopher]

1) What ways do you have of observing the creature across planar boundaries? Unless you have some, you won't know the result of the attack. Not immediately, anyway.

2) What ways do you have of getting an early warning in case you are attacked back? Foresight for example would send you an immediate warning of imminent danger right after you perform your attack.

3) If you have neither of the above, you die. All your copies of Ice Assassin go free (nobody to control them) and wreack havok trying to kill each other.




Depending on what kind of warning spells/effects/whatever you had, I can give you appropriate info.

Let's say I, and the ice assassins, have foresight up; and that one of the ice assassins is using clairvoyant sense on the Beast, another is using remote viewing, and a third is five miles away and can see the Beast with magically-enhanced sight. If I've set up rary's interplanar telepathic bond with all of my ice assassins, and they've all set up similar bonds with one another, what do I know?

EDIT: In case none of those work, what if there's another ice assassin using astral projection to project himself five miles from the Beast, and also using magically-enhanced eyesight?

EDIT 2: Also I myself have multiple contingent revivifies on myself. Is that enough to bring me back if I get deaded?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Scrying, Clairvoyant Sense, Remote Viewing and the like fail.


The Ice Assassin spying physically on the Beast sees it shifting into a metal, humanoid statue over 200 ft tall a split second before your spells hit. They have no effect. The Beast then vanishes and you die. (not sure if an Ice Assassin or similar copy would have a spirit to be able to Astrally Project, but that's a nonissue in this case)


And yeah, the Revivify contingencies aren't gonna cut it. For one thing, they work as Raise Dead; pretty limited in what they could bring back. Death effects, destruction of body, being slain by soultrapping/soulripping weapons or similar, and so on and so forth.

[Werephilosopher]

And yeah, the Revivify contingencies aren't gonna cut it. For one thing, they work as Raise Dead; pretty limited in what they could bring back. Death effects, destruction of body, being slain by soultrapping/soulripping weapons or similar, and so on and so forth.

If I also have an ice assassin living in my bag of holding, ready to cast miracle should my telepathic bond with it be broken (say, by dying), would that be enough to bring me back?

[Extra Anchovies]

Metal, humanoid statue over 200 feet tall... sounds like a very advanced Iron Golem or Colossus, no? And its magic immunity is (Ex), so we know that its shapechanging can mimic (Ex) abilities.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

If you die, nobody is controlling your Ice Assassins so they're free to follow their overpowering hatred for their original... which happens to be you. Even if they weren't copies of you, they'd still go after the original over anything else, once uncontrolled.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Metal, humanoid statue over 200 feet tall... sounds like a very advanced Iron Golem or Colossus, no? And its magic immunity is (Ex), so we know that its shapechanging can mimic (Ex) abilities.
200 ft is way taller than even Iron Colossus, but otherwise correct.

[Kazyan]

This thing seems to have the Alter Size SDA, combined with a Hagunemnon's Alter Shape.

[EisenKreutzer]

Ok, heres my attempt.

I'm a level 100 Wizard. My Intelligence is arbitrarily high, and I am wearing a Talisman of the Sphere. I am controlling a Sphere of Annihilation. I teleport in with the Sphere to a distance where I can observe the creature, and direct the Sphere to move as fast as possible (The sphere’s speed in a round is 10 feet +5 feet for every 5 points by which the character’s control check result in that round exceeded 30) towards the Beast.

What happens?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You die? To teleport with the sphere you need to carry it, carrying it means you're touching it.

[EisenKreutzer]

You die? To teleport with the sphere you need to carry it, carrying it means you're touching it.

Hmmm, I don't seem to have thought this through enough. I'll get back to you.

[EisenKreutzer]

Ok, new tactic:

I cast Time Stop. Modifying Teleport Object with Reach Spell (If Reach Spell cannot modify Teleport Object, I create an epic spell which can teleport an object I am not touching), I teleport the Sphere of Annihilation to a location where I would be able to barely see the Beast. I Teleport to the Sphere and command the Sphere to move as fast as possible towards the Beast.

Now what happens?

[Telok]

Level 21+ spellcaster. Two epic spells.

Spell one: Warning.
Effect: Sends a normal, nonmagical, written letter to one nameable imdividual. Anywhere. One week before you cast the spell.

Spell two: Adjust Planar Trait.
Effect: Barring divine intervention, changes the Time trait of any named plane to zero.

Step one, plane shift off the prime. Step two, freeze time on the prime. Step three, write a letter to the god of your choice.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@EisenKreutzer:
How close do you teleport to the Beast? Maximum control distance for the sphere is 1040 feet (40 ft +10 ft/level), regardless of your control check. Also, am I correct in reading that you do the whole thing under Time Stop, right?


@Telok:
Which seed effect are you using for sending an object into the past? Which seed effect are you using for modifying the planar traits of a plane? Both things are, potentially, RAW-doable but you still need to come up with the Epic Spell in question. No "freebies" in assuming you've already invented said spell.

[ninjamaster1991]

I think I might be able to kill this thing with a level 1 commoner...

1) Be a CE character that worships Statless Universe-Destroying Far Realm Horrorterror #87.
2) Get Knowlege: Religion decently high. You don't need it very high, so the usual boosting tricks (Skill Focus, masterwork tool, max ranks, 18-20 INT, etc.) should do nicely. Get Bluff up some, too.
3) (Optional) Find a death cult with similar beliefs as you with as many resources and people as you can.
4) Use your decent Bluff to convince two young, gullible virgins to come into your secret base.
5) Sacrifice one of them in a quick ritual for either a 2nd level spell slot, the Dark XP/GP to make a single-use 2nd spell level item, or some other way to get Guidance of the Avatar.
6) Use GotA (and its tasty, tasty +20) to assist in a more complex ritual full of circumstance bonuses, Aid Another checks, and consumables. Do the same thing as you did before, but this time, get Gate.
7) Gate in your benefactor. Gate may not be able to force a creature through, but a bored/trapped/newly awoken eldrich abomination would likely be more than happy to eat a fresh world full of tasty souls, even if there's a slightly larger mote of dust standing in its way.
8) Pray that your lord would be so generous as to make your demise swift and painless.

Hopeful end result: One dead supercreature.
Alternative end result: One fewer universe-eating monstrosity.
Minimum collateral damage: At least one plane of existance, several dieties, and millions to billions of lives.

I never said it was a perfect plan...

[EisenKreutzer]

@EisenKreutzer:
How close do you teleport to the Beast? Maximum control distance for the sphere is 1040 feet (40 ft +10 ft/level), regardless of your control check. Also, am I correct in reading that you do the whole thing under Time Stop, right?

To be safe, I'll teleport to a greater distance, say 30.000 feet, and use an Ice Assassin casting the same Teleport Object/Teleport spells to get within maximum Sphere range. The Ice Assassin benefits from my Time Stop, as per the rules. And yes, I do the whole thing under Time Stop, which is Extended. Once the Sphere reaches the BEast, I will cast Gate to travel to a demiplane I have prepared for such occasions using Genesis.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@ninjamaster1991:
LOL. Minor nitpick: Gate can call creatures based off HD. If a creature doesn't have HD (or has too many), you couldn't call them. A minimum-CL Gate could only get a 34-HD creature through. That's less than the average abomination, way less than the average deity or IT.

[Telok]

@Telok:
Which seed effect are you using for sending an object into the past? Which seed effect are you using for modifying the planar traits of a plane? Both things are, potentially, RAW-doable but you still need to come up with the Epic Spell in question. No "freebies" in assuming you've already invented said spell.[/QUOTE]

I'm on a mobile and pretty busy so far this week. I'll work something out if I get the time. The essence of the solution is that the thing does not control the traits of the plane it is on and at least one god is helping the player. The god doesn't have to do anything but enable you to cast the epic spell. As a bonus, if you pick the right god then the god will know about the letter before the letter arrives.

[ninjamaster1991]

@ninjamaster1991:
LOL. Minor nitpick: Gate can call creatures based off HD. If a creature doesn't have HD (or has too many), you couldn't call them. A minimum-CL Gate could only get a 34-HD creature through. That's less than the average abomination, way less than the average deity or IT.

Nope.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm
From a quick skim, Gate has a cap for CONTROLLING the creature (2*CL, not that that matters as no self-respecting death cult worships a non-unique creature), but no cap for summoning it.
If all else fails, then using the Planar Transport feature to your god's location should stay open enough to let it through.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@EisenKreutzer:
Huh, what do you know. This form of attack actually covers steps 1, 2, and 3 in killing the creature without being horribly killed - or destroying the Multiverse. The sphere gets up to the creature and touches it and... nothing happens. But as soon as time resumes, its physical form is annihilated. What does your character do now?


@Ninjamaster1991:
Hmm. That might work. Though statless stuff should not be part of this challenge.

[Extra Anchovies]

@EisenKreutzer:
Huh, what do you know. This form of attack actually covers steps 1, 2, and 3 in killing the creature without being horribly killed - or destroying the Multiverse. The sphere gets up to the creature and touches it and... nothing happens. But as soon as time resumes, its physical form is annihilated. What does your character do now?

Victory dance, since only direct deific intervention can restore it?


@Ninjamaster1991:
Hmm. That might work. Though statless stuff should not be part of this challenge.

Then we just need to find the nastiest possible thing with stats.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

How long does your victory dance last? :smallamused:

[EisenKreutzer]

Wow, I fully expected that to fail. Color me very surprised!


How long does your victory dance last? :smallamused:

1d6 rounds of pure excitement!

[Extra Anchovies]

How long does your victory dance last? :smallamused:

...let's go with less than 1 round. Then some sort of question-asking divination spell (contact other plane, etc.) to determine if the thingy is fully destroyed or not.

[EisenKreutzer]

...let's go with less than 1 round. Then some sort of question-asking divination spell (contact other plane, etc.) to determine if the thingy is fully destroyed or not.
This, just to be safe.

[ninjamaster1991]

@Ninjamaster1991:
Hmm. That might work. Though statless stuff should not be part of this challenge.

Well, that wasn't in the rules when I posted it, so I maintain my (technical) victory.

[Karsh]

Well, we certainly know that IT has Belial's favorite epic feats (Infinite/Exceptional Deflection). That scuttles my idea for somehow juicing out an Enlightened Fist to max out range increments and punching it to death from a distance using a combination of turning the damage type to Force and using Blood Wind/Wraithstrike/True Strike to ensure a hit.

Hrmmm... time to dust off my old Optimization hat... I wonder if there's an Epic Invisbility/Epic Mind Blank combo that could make the creature unaware of the attack in order to negate its Deflection?

[EisenKreutzer]

Having defeated IT, I would love to get a PM of ITs stats. I'd like to see just what kind of epic monstrosity It really is.

[ninjamaster1991]

Hrmmm... time to dust off my old Optimization hat... I wonder if there's an Epic Invisbility/Epic Mind Blank combo that could make the creature unaware of the attack in order to negate its Deflection?

Vecna-Blooded is a LA +1 template, and it's more powerful than any Mind Blank - only Vecna himself (or some esoteric combination I remember like Truenamer + several obscure metaSLA feats + a specific PrC) can affect you with divinations.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@EisenKreutzer:
A contact other plane cast on the round ITs physical form is destroyed by the Sphere reveals that it is not defeated. What do you do?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@ninjamaster1991:
Yeah, but Vecna-blooded only protects against divinations, not all effects revealing information like Mind Blank does. Miracle is Evocation and Wish/Limited Wish are Universal. Supernatural abilities do not have schools of magic at all. Kinda huge hole in the protection it offers...

[Heliomance]

You die? To teleport with the sphere you need to carry it, carrying it means you're touching it.

Level 90 Wizard/level 10 Entropomancer gets round that nicely. But it seems a way had been found to get the Sphere there anyway.

[Renen]

I am a wizard. I try the following:
1) Stop time
2) Teleport to creature
3) Wish to have it fully covered in quintessence.

Wait for profit or more likely, terrible death.

Alternatively:

You DID say the gods can possibly do something about it, but didnt have the time to prep/have more pressing matters occupying them till now.
I am a psion.
1) I so happen to have used save game trick some time before it arrived.
2) Now, I just chill around and wait until gods come up with a solution to the problem or are desperate enough to all combine their power and create me an artifact that has all their power condensed into a spell strong enough to completely say "no" to IT.
3) I activate the save game trick, taking said powerful mcguffin with me into the time before IT arrived.
4) I wait for zero hour, and blast the sucker as soon as it arrives.

Profit?

Alternatively:

Theres a trick I cant find right now, that goes something like:
Use save game trick along with quintessence, to effectively "destroy" all progress of the plane, from perspective of other planes. This is due to the fact that I reverse time only on this plane, while other planes are totally unaffected. This is similar to option 2 though.

Bonus: I also check if the creature is actually here, or if this is ANY form of astral projection (epic or otherwise), or any other spell that allows to be somewhere without having your real body there. I check using any possible method of checking, like wish, skill checks, contact other plane, and basic things like tooking for ailver cords.

[Heliomance]

Some Loredrake with Draconic Knowledge makes a check to discover the origins of this creature. Note: Draconic Knowledge DCs are set by how cosmically important the thing is, with more important events having lower DCs. I'm guessing that the existence of this thing is pretty damn significant, and as such should have a DC below 20.

EDIT: Actually, I'm pretty certain the base DC would be 10, and if the dragon has a lair in the area the creature rampaged through, that drops the DC to 5.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Renen:
A wish creates either a single ounce of quintessence by replicating a single casting of that effect, or 89.3 ounces of quintessence costing 25.000 gp as the manifesting of 4th level power at manifester level 7 costs 280 gp. That's not enough to even fully cover a human, let alone something the size of IT or an entire plane.

Not sure if the save game trick actually works. Several reasons for that;
1) Can't use Anticiparoty Strike if flat-footed. You're flat-footed if you haven't acted in your initiative count yet (and you wouldn't have, immediately after you reappear)
2) Anticipatory Strike doesn't actually give you swift actions, only a move+standard or a full-round one. Triggering Forced Dream requires a swift action.
3) Anticipatory Strike allows you to act before your turn comes up in this round. Time Hop doesn't allow you to act until your next turn after the power ends. So which effect supercedes, "can" or "can't"?

Also IT is real, as far as you can tell.



@Heliomance:
IT seems to have originated in the Abyss - but not the parts of it touching Torilspace. Powers whose sphere of influence extends to other Crystal Spheres might know more.

[gnalish]

Psion Egoist, ectoplasmic form, time hop, font of power from Metamind prestige, fission, greater metamorphosis into it, timeless body just in case, shatter iron will, microcosm. Bye.

[Renen]

1) If wish cant create enough quintessence, then I either use an epic create quintessence, or just wish to have alot of already made quintessence to be transported from my vat of quintessence over to IT.

2) Nah, save game trick takes me say... a few days beforr IT gets there. Then I just wait for it to get here and blast it as some point. Since blasting it is possible (just ineffective for 99.9999999% of the time) it should work right?

[ninjamaster1991]

@ninjamaster1991:
Yeah, but Vecna-blooded only protects against divinations, not all effects revealing information like Mind Blank does. Miracle is Evocation and Wish/Limited Wish are Universal. Supernatural abilities do not have schools of magic at all. Kinda huge hole in the protection it offers...

So it does. Huh.

Anyway, plan #2:
1) Teleport through Time
2) Take out your self-resetting 1/round trap of Wish that wishes for an activated self-resetting 1/round trap of Quintessence.
3) Place it above the earliest known location of the creature, 10 minutes before IT shows up (or a normal Quintessence trap a few months/years beforehand)
4) ???
5) Ask your friendly neighborhood diety to break the traps or activate their built-in killswitch
6) Profit!

[Crake]

Be an Elan, so I live forever. Sending the creature that I'd like to face it in one on one honourable combat.

Stand at the bottom of the spire in outland, wait for it to come, one day, sometime.

Take it's earthshattering blow, which proceeds to crush the spire, causing it to tumble, taking down sigil with it.

Watch as the lady of pain proceeds to mete out her wrath upon the creature, and probably upon me for bringing it here.

Die a horrible death, but take the creature out in the process.

[ninjamaster1991]

Be an Elan, so I live forever. Sending the creature that I'd like to face it in one on one honourable combat.

Stand at the bottom of the spire in outland, wait for it to come, one day, sometime.

Take it's earthshattering blow, which proceeds to crush the spire, causing it to tumble, taking down sigil with it.

Watch as the lady of pain proceeds to mete out her wrath upon the creature, and probably upon me for bringing it here.

Die a horrible death, but take the creature out in the process.

The creature might not accept your challenge, and even if it did, what makes you think it doesn't have any precision attacks?

[Crake]

The creature might not accept your challenge, and even if it did, what makes you think it doesn't have any precision attacks?

When i'm the last creature left in the multiverse, it wont have anything better to do.

And it's very presence seems to be earthshattering, so vOv

[Renen]

Be an Elan, so I live forever. Sending the creature that I'd like to face it in one on one honourable combat.

Stand at the bottom of the spire in outland, wait for it to come, one day, sometime.

Take it's earthshattering blow, which proceeds to crush the spire, causing it to tumble, taking down sigil with it.

Watch as the lady of pain proceeds to mete out her wrath upon the creature, and probably upon me for bringing it here.

Die a horrible death, but take the creature out in the process.

You know... I considered lady of pain... but even though she isnt statted I think since she is just a goddess, she wont be able to do more than a whole pantheon... right?

[Heliomance]

You know... I considered lady of pain... but even though she isnt statted I think since she is just a goddess, she wont be able to do more than a whole pantheon... right?

Nope, she's not a goddess. She eats gods for breakfast. The Lady of Pain's stats are, more or less, if she decides she wants you dead, you die.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@gnalish:
Can't shapechange/metamorphosis/whatever into unique creatures. And what's "shatter iron will"?


@Renen:
Assuming quintessence remains in a spherical shape at rest, you're going to need (calculates) 884.736.000.000 castings of the standard Quintessence power to cover it. No spell less than epic is going to move that amount anywhere, and in any case to actually apply it you'd need to get close to the creature and spend a lot of actions applying it. And once you start, assuming you don't die outright, it could simply go insubstantial.
That's what I call an impractical plan.
Blasting can work. But just declaring that you blast it isn't gonna cut it - it's how you blast it that matters. I.e. magic missiles are unlikely to work.


@ninjamaster1991:
According to the rules for traps, magical traps don't have a reset element. But even using your way, it'd take at least two months to get the Quintessence required. And if you cover the area beforehand, IT will either appear in the nearest free space, or its appearance will be blocked - in which case it would simply have chosen to appear elsewhere.


Crake:
You do realize the creature could Gate you out of the Outlands, right? All it would take would be a Gate heightened to 10th level, as the Spire's limited magic effect only applies to spells up to 9th level. Not to mention the various ways of ignoring limited magic and/or planar traits.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Nope, she's not a goddess. She eats gods for breakfast. The Lady of Pain's stats are, more or less, if she decides she wants you dead, you die.
All we know is she can maze creatures in her domain, flay creatures in her domain and kill gods in her domain. So if you don't enter her domain, enter her domain but don't count as being in her domain, or are immune to being mazed/flayed/killed, then she can't do anything to you.

[Werephilosopher]

@Renen:
Assuming quintessence remains in a spherical shape at rest, you're going to need (calculates) 884.736.000.000 castings of the standard Quintessence power to cover it. No spell less than epic is going to move that amount anywhere, and in any case to actually apply it you'd need to get close to the creature and spend a lot of actions applying it. And once you start, assuming you don't die outright, it could simply go insubstantial.
That's what I call an impractical plan.

Don't use an epic spell to move or apply the quintessence - use an epic spell to form and maintain a hollow sphere around the beast without actually targeting the beast.


Crake:
You do realize the creature could Gate you out of the Outlands, right? All it would take would be a Gate heightened to 10th level, as the Spire's limited magic effect only applies to spells up to 9th level.

The Naturalized Denizen feat takes care of that.

[Renen]

So imagine this: I use an epic spell to create any amount of quintessence I want, or to to a private plane with hyper slow time, and just make it normally (using w/e method to not die of old age).
Then I stop time and port over to IT, and use an epic spell to drop every bit of quintessence on it. Then I use some barrier to make sure quintessence doesnt ooze away. Its now in a box full of quintessence. It cant do anything, since before time stop it had no reason to do anything, and after time stop its in quintessence which cant (to my knowledge) allow ANY action.

So theres no applying quintessence. I just appear next to it, while in time stop. Cast wish and have all quintessence just appear around it in a blob. I then use barriers of any sort to keep blob from falling away.
if wish cant move quintessence for some reason, I use an epic spell called "Move any amount of **** I want". I researched it in my private demiplne with 10,000 years per one round of prime plane time.


As for the blasting, all I mean is this:
You said that gods CAN potentially kill it eventually.
but we wanna kill it NOW.
So we wait till gods figure out a way, have them give us the method (probably in a "no save, you absolutely die" divine spell that is garanteed to work). Then we just time travel to the beginning of the "incident" and use said hypothetical god spell to blast it.

[EisenKreutzer]

@EisenKreutzer:
A contact other plane cast on the round ITs physical form is destroyed by the Sphere reveals that it is not defeated. What do you do?

Oh my.. I have no idea how to proceed from this point, I hadn't planned anything beyond the Sphere of Annihilation.

[Extra Anchovies]

Oh my.. I have no idea how to proceed from this point, I hadn't planned anything beyond the Sphere of Annihilation.

The standard procedure from here is more spheres of annihilation, clearly. Or continue performing the victory dance until it comes back?

[ninjamaster1991]

@ninjamaster1991:
According to the rules for traps, magical traps don't have a reset element. But even using your way, it'd take at least two months to get the Quintessence required. And if you cover the area beforehand, IT will either appear in the nearest free space, or its appearance will be blocked - in which case it would simply have chosen to appear elsewhere.

Spell traps are always one-use, but that's because they're the effects of specific spells - Symbols of X, Sepia Snake Sigil, Explosive Runes, Teleportation Circle, etc. Resetting them requires recasting the spell. Magic device traps can be resettable, as they're closer to a mechanical trap that repeatedly casts a single spell.

Also, if there's a quantity problem, there are two options: the complicated one and the potentially world-ending one.

The complicated one goes like so:
1) Travel Through Time as far in the past as you can.
2) Cast Genesis (or find a relatively empty fast-time plane)
3) Place your Wish-for-Quint-trap trap so it and its spawn stay at a fixed-but-high point, whether by being made out of Floatstone with a ceiling, doubling as a self-only Mage Hand/Fly trap, or being Nailed to the Sky.
4) Activate the traps and get out while the newly-made Demiplane of Finite-but-Replenishing Quintessence is replenishing.
5) Get back to the monster's time, and your Simulacra/Ice Assassins ready an action to open a horizontal Gate or twelve as soon as IT turns into something small enough.
6) If it works, coat IT in Riverine and set it as a trophy in your front parlor next to all the other world-eating monstrosities.

The dangerous way:
1) Use far too many Divinations and INT checks to figure out exactly when and where to place the Wish trap.
2) TTT
3) As soon as the creature teleports in, it gets caught in an ever-quickening flood of Quintessence, hopefully trapping it forever.
4) Coat in Riverine, mount on parlor.

[Kazyan]

I'm just going to be silly and have fun, since I don't like playing Pun-Punhigh-op high-level Wizards, but I can't win without playing one, so...

Level 63 Binder. Take the necessary feats to bind Malphas, Ipos, Desharis, Haures, Amun-Her Kepeshef, Zuriel, and Gaia simultaneously. This should be three Bind X epic feats and two copies of Bind Additional Epic Vestige. Let's say this character's Charisma modifier is about +50, since we can have however much wealth we want, and Epic Cloaks of Charisma exist, but that might not be relevant if the below doesn't work.

Use Malphas's raven to scout out the general area of IT's destruction, looking for IT. Can I figure out where this thing is and possibly observe various effects around it, or does it kill the raven before it can fly close enough to determine location? This character has cross-class ranks in Spellcraft (so, modifier of about +35) if that is necessary.

[Heliomance]

All we know is she can maze creatures in her domain, flay creatures in her domain and kill gods in her domain. So if you don't enter her domain, enter her domain but don't count as being in her domain, or are immune to being mazed/flayed/killed, then she can't do anything to you.

Didn't think that dead good in the astral plane was in her domain, was it?

[Crake]

The Naturalized Denizen feat takes care of that.

What werephilosopher said. Get rid of the extraplanar subtype and you're immune to being gated.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Quintessence:
OK, you "trap" it in quintessence under time stop or similar shenanigans. Time stop ends and you die, while the quintessence collapses since it doesn't coat anything anymore.


@Renen:
The gods' way works in a way you cannot replicate (unless you're running a god against IT) or observe - and leaves all creatures save themselves unaware of anything about IT, including ITs existence. It's not the only way to stop IT but it is the one more accessible to gods once they start the gamebreaking shenanigans and doesn't require epic magic or cause major collateral damage. (they hope)


@Werephilosopher:
Nice feat. Will bring it up in normal games every time I have anyone's attempt to use Candles of Invocation, Efreeti calling, chain-gating and the like spectacularly fail for balance reasons.


@Extra Anchovies:
Or maybe try to find out how it comes back so next time it's killed you can make it stick.


@Kazyan:
The raven needs to make a will save or just sit there and observe the destruction in a daze until something kills it by accident. But otherwise finding IT is obvious. Major earthquakes, ripping holes in the planet's crust and general, all-around mayhem is not very subtle.

[Heliomance]

@Kazyan:
The raven needs to make a will save or just sit there and observe the destruction in a daze until something kills it by accident. But otherwise finding IT is obvious. Major earthquakes, ripping holes in the planet's crust and general, all-around mayhem is not very subtle.

Something that was brought up in the last one of these threads is that, as we essentially have infinite attempts (after all, every adventurer has a brother waiting to avenge them) we might as well assume that we always roll 20s on everything - because we can just keep throwing copies of the same character at it until we do.

[Renen]

So... its immune to quintessence? (Or it would have to be permanently time-stopped)

Well... what else can I do...

1) Research IT's true name. Either via wishing/miracle for it or just normal research.
2) PaO into race with [evil] subtype or an undead.
3) Have levels in Tainted Scholar
4) Get ABSURD casting stat via taint
5) Cast unname on creature.

Now... since the bloody thing might not be vulnerable to normal spells, anyone know how to become a deity, or have Unname be like a deity spell?

Oh... and while I can describe how its done, ill probably just say that I test its immunities to see what it has:
I use epic spells to test
All elemental damage, as well as acid and sonic
Level drain
Negative energy
Positive energy


As for the god plan, heres my reasoning:
1) We wanna stop the thing ASAP right?
2) Gods CAN eventually figure out a way to kill it right?
3) Wait until they do, tell em to make it into a scroll usable by a "mortal"
4) Take scroll, teleport through time to just before the incident
5) When IT appears, use the "God scroll of killing IT"
6) ???
7) Profit

[ninjamaster1991]

@Quintessence:
OK, you "trap" it in quintessence under time stop or similar shenanigans. Time stop ends and you die, while the quintessence collapses since it doesn't coat anything anymore.

I assume that goes for my plans, too? Or is indiscrimination the key to not getting slaughtered in retaliation?


@Werephilosopher:
Nice feat. Will bring it up in normal games every time I have anyone's attempt to use Candles of Invocation, Efreeti calling, chain-gating and the like spectacularly fail for balance reasons.

Keep in mind that only [Extraplanar] creatures can get Gated in - and creatures aren't [Extraplanar] on their home plane. If all the Solars are at home, they can't be Gated in. The few that are out are likely in the service of other casters - and if their servant suddenly disappears, they're pretty likely to re-Gate it ASAP.


Now... since the bloody thing might not be vulnerable to normal spells, anyone know how to become a deity, or have Unname be like a deity spell?

Just play a diety. If you play an Evil-but-pragmatic one hoping for rewards, that takes care of the [Evil] subtype, too. I recommend a minor diety of greed and/or destruction for Portfolio Sense.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Heliomance:
As soon as you start repeating the same kind of actions as a previous attempt for rerolling purposes, you find out IT takes exactly the kind of actions that would foil your attempts; you try to get to ITs location, it has already moved. You try to cast an Epic Spell, it arrives at exactly the right time to disrupt you. You try to set up a contingency, it takes actions in such a way that it exactly evades your contingency's trigger or otherwise foils it.


@Renen:
Immunity to quintessence is not required to foil the quintessence attempt.
Your Unname gets reflected. Luckily, it doesn't work on you.
A spell or two down your hands-on "research" the creature arrives and you die. It's not going to sit there while you test every spell you can think of on it, you know.
There are lots of things that can't be put into scrolls, or don't work if they are.


@ninjamaster1991:
The key to not dying is finding out how it kills you, then taking the appropriate precautions. So far, nobody has used any serious defenses besides trying to cheat time and/or the action economy. Hell, you haven't tried any serious precautions vs dead magic or similar effects that null your nonepic buffs.



@everyone:
Things are beginning to take shape as you get the results to more attempts. You guys should be guessing by now at a few of its major powers and realizing the type of enemy you're facing, more or less. There have been a couple of comments on that already. :smallamused:

[Heliomance]

@Heliomance:
As soon as you start repeating the same kind of actions as a previous attempt for rerolling purposes, you find out IT takes exactly the kind of actions that would foil your attempts; you try to get to ITs location, it has already moved. You try to cast an Epic Spell, it arrives at exactly the right time to disrupt you. You try to set up a contingency, it takes actions in such a way that it exactly evades your contingency's trigger or otherwise foils it.



Oh, now that's interesting. That implies that it somehow gets perfect information on everything it's encountered. I don't know of any abilities that can do that - can anyone think of anything?

[Renen]

Oh, now that's interesting. That implies that it somehow gets perfect information on everything it's encountered. I don't know of any abilities that can do that - can anyone think of anything?


I think it would be nice if this was like a video game. Retetting each fail. This way we CAN try till we get a nat 20, because creature wont remember previous attempts.

Ok now to see how it kills...
I take a tonn of cannon fodder and send them to the creature 1 by 1 to see which immunity works.
So, I give them (If a point is a single word, assume it has immunity after it, like Fire immunity):
Loyal beyond death (cant die to hp dmg, atleast for a time)
Death effects
Fire
Ice
lightning
Sonic
Acid
Mind effects
Compulsions
Disease
Poison
Fear
Paralysis
Sleep
Critical hit
Nonlethal damage
Physical ability drain
Mental ability drain
Negative energy
Positive energy
Negative levels
Troll's immunity Regeneration ability
I also get an incorporeal guy in there...

Anything else I can put in?

Edit:
Another thing I try:
Pawn in a great game feat
Oprimized Fort save.
Any time said person dies to hp dmg or death effect, they make fort save to not die.
High fort save and ability to reroll ones are included :D

Edit 2:
I ALSO have a guy who has a hyper high hide, and carries a great shield to provide cover, and lets say... also has the "good" version of hide in plain sight.

[Heliomance]

@Heliomance:
As soon as you start repeating the same kind of actions as a previous attempt for rerolling purposes, you find out IT takes exactly the kind of actions that would foil your attempts; you try to get to ITs location, it has already moved. You try to cast an Epic Spell, it arrives at exactly the right time to disrupt you. You try to set up a contingency, it takes actions in such a way that it exactly evades your contingency's trigger or otherwise foils it.

Actually, is it possible to use that to manipulate its behaviour via carefully worded Contingencies? Send in a mook with contingencies, then send in a duplicate - you know it's not going to do anything that would set off a contingency. Also, what happens if wording contingencies such that it's logically impossible not to set at least one of them off?

[EisenKreutzer]

Actually, is it possible to use that to manipulate its behaviour via carefully worded Contingencies? Send in a mook with contingencies, then send in a duplicate - you know it's not going to do anything that would set off a contingency. Also, what happens if wording contingencies such that it's logically impossible not to set at least one of them off?

Thats assuming IT is just mindlessly circumventing contingencies. From what we have learned it is quite intelligent.

[Zirconia]

Given that it vanished out from under the Quintessence, and didn't get permanently killed by the Sphere of Annihilation, could the rampaging critter everyone is seeing be projected from somewhere else? After all, that is the standard way high level Wizards fight things, project themselves from a private demiplane.

[Renen]

Well... one way to find out.
1) I wish (via miracle by a cleric devoted to concepts) to know the true name of the threat that is causing great destruction, and beat up Thoth on day x.
2) I wish to have a big flare appear 100ft north of (True name). Flare is not to appear next to any sort of Ice assassin, astral projection (insert all possible similar methods here) of (true name)

If theres a flare, then its the real deal. And if it is, makes you wonder how DID it get hurt by the sphere of "you go poof" but just ignore quintessence.

[Telok]

Ok, it turns out I had time on the bus to work on this because it needed very little internet activity.

The assumptions are thus: An unoptimized wizard gets to level 21 and makes two general use epic spells. During level 20 he aquires uses Genesis to make a small demi-plane and make a magic item. The demi-plane is a copy of the Etherial plane and is 200 five foot cubes in size. The wizard's size is Small. After all of this (roughly three to five days after the wizard levels up to 21) a terrible thing appears and beats up all the gods. The wizard is informed of what transpired up to that point.

At this point the wizard (being generally non-evil) begins to act. He says " That sounds bad, someone should do something about it." and Plane Shifts to his demi-plane. He begins casting a full round epic spell, 200 of his Simracula use readied actions to add fifth level spells to the ritual. The planar trait of Time for the Prime is set to zero barring divine intervention. The wizard sucks around 4000xp lost and 20d6 backlash, he is modestly inconvenienced for a couple of rounds. The wizard writes a letter and uses a spell to make twenty or so copies. The wizard casts a ten minute epic spell, all 1595 simracula on the plane assist with fifth level spells. The wizard experiences 21d6 backlash or 4200 xp loss, depending on if he has a 20 Constitution or not. He is modestly inconvenienced for a couple of rounds. Twenty four hours earlier the twenty most powerful gods and/or epic characters that the wizard knows about get a letter telling them what will/did happen.

Doing this the hard way and without any attempt at optimization the longest part was making a wizard only, 5/day, self Simraculum magic item. By doing that and Genesis at the start of 20th level means that by the time he gets to 21st he has a small personal demi-plane with 8 tenth level copies of himself per five foot square, plus one open square for himself. The epic spell that sent the letters used the Transport and Reveal seeds, it had almost a 14500 DC before mitigation and a 1 DC after. It was partly based off of the epic spell that dragged your future self back in time by one round. The Reveal seed was used to target the arrival of the letters without the wizard knowing where they were going. The letters don't travel via any plane, they just arrive. Surprisingly the spell that sets the time trait of an adjacent plane was pretty cheap, area increases are cheaper than time travel. It used the Transform and Transport seeds, the former to change one aspect of the target plane and the latter to have the spell affect a plane that you are not on. Plus several hundred ad hoc increases.

As a side question, has anyone considered using an epic arseplomancer on this thing?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Renen:
1) All the mooks you send are torn apart by AoOs as soon as they move within 1000 feet or so.
2) The first miracle fails.
3) The second miracle succeeds. A flame appears 100 ft North of you. Then you and the cleric die.


@Heliomance:
Please send example wording of contingencies and see what happens.


@Telok:
1) Interesting work on transferring the message. The arriving message (in the past) reads "NICE TRY. NOW DIE." in big, bloody letters and has the stylistic depiction of a simple disc with eight arrowlike protrusions fanning around it, standing on a needle. Nobody in the past takes that threat seriously or comprehends it. In the present, after casting the spell you die.
2) Creatures in the material plane (especially those actually part of it such as genii loci, dryads, possessing spirits and the like) make fortitude saves against Transform. At least one gets a natural 20.
2b) Assuming nobody rolls a 20, time freezes. The creature can still act, as can several high-level wizards, clerics and druids. They are not amused and return time to its normal flow.

[Renen]

Wait... mooks are torn apart by basic attacks, even while immune to death by hp dmg?
If the 1st miracle fails, how does the 2nd work, with no true name to be used in it?

Next try this:
Be undead
Be tainted scholar/any CHA casting class
Have Mark of Nessus Feat
Go to custom plane with time flowing at hyper speed
Get my CHA to super high value by spamming spells, and gaining taint
Go give IT the finger, and see if death follows (and how fast. Due to nat 20's and all)

Also, assuming its fine to use info others got (or I can just do the exact same thing):
I contact other plane and ask "Well there's this symbol guys... know it?"

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Renen:
1) Yes, slain outright regardless of immunity to death by HP damage.
2) Who said that the second miracle was cast by the cleric?
3) Now, that's interesting. You're slain by AoO on giving IT the finger (I'm assuming that action draws one). You descend to the Nine Hells upon your death, your larval form taken immediately before Asmodeus. The Lord of Nessus frowns upon you then frowns at something held in his left hand.
TELL THE NEXT ONE TO COME SEE ME
The power of your Lord's voice shakes your very soul. Then you're cast out of the Hells in the form of a lowly imp...

[Renen]

1) Ok. Interesting. What happens to the guy that i sent in with ALL those immunities? He still died? (in one round?)
2) Then who WAS the 2nd miracle cast by? (I actually meant to BE that cleric myself) And I thought
3) Huh... Assuming i have someone watching from a distance, and said person is sufficiently protected... How do we die?

Continuing on:
I go to the pantheon that IT just opened a can of whoop ass on and ask em to make an Aleax of me.
I then do appropriate shenanigans* to become the Ice Assassin of my aleax (With the Singular enemy feat)
I then go give IT the finger.


*Appropriate shenanigans

Shapechange -> Zodar -> Wish -> Scroll of Ice Assassin of an Aleax of you -> shift to non Zodar form -> Zodar -> Wish for a Power Stone of Fusion -> shift to non Zodar form -> Zodar -> Wish for a Power Stone of Astral Seed -> shift to non Zodar form -> Zodar -> Wish for a Thought Bottle -> Use Power Stone of of Fusion on Ice Assassin -> Use Power Stone of Astral Seed -> Use Thought Bottle -> Kill yourself -> Return from Astral Seed -> Use Thought Bottle to regain lost level.

There you go, now the only one who can ever harm you is you thanks to Singular Enemy (Ex). Total cost was 3,825 GP for the Scroll of Shapechange.

Continuing even further:
I contact other plane, a BUNCH of times, till i get every deity, asking them if they know what that is.

And further:
What happens if I use Pun-pun's trick of gaining divine ranks, get to an arbitrarily high rank, and blast IT, with similar things Thoth used, except 100 times harder?

[Telok]

Interesting. The thing has the ability to kill a standard immunity list epic wizard on another plane with no rolls. The ability to act outside of and through time. The ability to affect epic spells after they are cast, before instant effects happen, and decieve all gods in a way that warps portfolio sense into giving false info.

And why would a dryad save against the environment of the plane it is on changing?

I still think an arseplomancer would at least be funny.

Edit: I am reminded that the symbol is of chaos from Elric. You could Gate in Stormbringer but the gods might object.

[EisenKreutzer]

IT is obviously an agent of Chaos. Perhaps it can be defeated by Law?

[Renen]

Just because it uses the 8 arrow'd symbol doesnt mean it is (though i guess likely)
If it IS chaos, time to go question Lolth, and the like.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Renen:
*sigh* This again? Let's see in how many ways I can IC mess with it;
1) Upon killing yourself, you are dead and don't reform. Something must have happened to your Astral Seed.
2) Upon picking up Thought Bottle to regain lost level, your soul is sucked into the bottle. Then the coloration of the bottle fades, revealing a bottle-shaped gem of high value you picked up through your own actions.
3) Upon giving IT the finger, you disintegrate in a terrific explosion of sound, heat and light. Nothing remains but floating dust.
4) Upon shapechanging into a Zodar, you discover they have no Wish ability. (yes, this is IC. Will reveal how it was done when the stats are revealed)
EDIT: upon trying to exploit the sarukh, you discover they don't have any unusual, exploitable abilities. (same as with Zodar)


@Telok:
Some -but not all- of your assumptions are faulty.

[Renen]

Well... had to try...

Please address other points I made, if possible.
2) was supposed to have a part where I wonder why wishing to know true name didnt work. I previously tried using true name for Unname, and spell got cast (though reflected). So maybe because I stated that i wish OR normally research? Then I normally research, and then ask for flare thing.

Oh, and I also try to be Urban Savant and use Urban Savvy on it.
It could potentially work if IT is one of following: aberration, animal, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, ooze, or vermin.
I'd go forward in time if needed, to satisfy the "been here a while" clause. Though said phrase can be stretched quite thin.

Oh, and I do the Mad Minute psionic trick, coupled with tumble, to roll up to IT and see if anything kills me thats NOT an AoO.

[ninjamaster1991]

I have another plan to test its offences...
1) Use the Rituals of Association (Savage Species) of Fire and Cold on a Warforged, making it a Construct [Living Construct] [Fire] [Cold].
2) Cast Incarnate Construct on it, making it Humanoid.
3) Apply the Symbiotic Creature (Dread Blossom Swarm) (Both from SS) template to it, giving it Regeneration/Fire or Cold, Plant immunities and Swarm immunities (but not the actual type or subtype).
4) Give it the Adamantine Body, Steadfast Determimation, Tomb-Tainted Soul, and Pawn in the Great Game feats.
5) Give it 5 levels of Warforged Juggernaut.
6) Clone it and Astral Project with it.

Ideally, all steps up to this point would be done in the absence of any real threat (a nigh-invulnerable foot soldier can be pretty useful with creativity), leaving only
7) Send it waltzing at IT.

[ben-zayb]

Current responses suggests possessing Phane abilities (adaptation via time regression, dgiving a "refleted" abilities illusion by actual duplication of foes, unusual immunity to damage, etc.).

Summon Past Duplicate also won't succeed on the level 1 Commoner presented earlier, judging by RAW, or maybe that's just a coincidence.

Seems like action economy isn't a problem as well. The thought bottle deception looks like some variation or tricked out version of Trap the Soul.

@Belial Would a 1HD Pun-Pun have a chance to beat IT? Would a 1HD Omniscifiscer learn anything?

[Renen]

I suggest that from now on, it should be considered that every "hero" has the "Standard paranoid wizard immunities", as well as Temporal Repair spell on them.

[Extra Anchovies]

@Renen:
*sigh* This again? Let's see in how many ways I can IC mess with it;
1) Upon killing yourself, you are dead and don't reform. Something must have happened to your Astral Seed.
2) Upon picking up Thought Bottle to regain lost level, your soul is sucked into the bottle. Then the coloration of the bottle fades, revealing a bottle-shaped gem of high value you picked up through your own actions.
3) Upon giving IT the finger, you disintegrate in a terrific explosion of sound, heat and light. Nothing remains but floating dust.
4) Upon shapechanging into a Zodar, you discover they have no Wish ability. (yes, this is IC. Will reveal how it was done when the stats are revealed)
EDIT: upon trying to exploit the sarukh, you discover they don't have any unusual, exploitable abilities. (same as with Zodar)


@Telok:
Some -but not all- of your assumptions are faulty.

What if someone did all the Singular Enemy invulnerability trick before IT was aware of our aspiring invulnerable wizard, and before the aspiring invulnerable wizard was aware of IT?

[Renen]

I think this is more of the DM wanting us to find an actual defense, instead of saying "Im immune to ALL the things"
Which is while sad, is understandable.

[Crake]

@Renen:
1) Yes, slain outright regardless of immunity to death by HP damage.
2) Who said that the second miracle was cast by the cleric?
3) Now, that's interesting. You're slain by AoO on giving IT the finger (I'm assuming that action draws one). You descend to the Nine Hells upon your death, your larval form taken immediately before Asmodeus. The Lord of Nessus frowns upon you then frowns at something held in his left hand.
TELL THE NEXT ONE TO COME SEE ME
The power of your Lord's voice shakes your very soul. Then you're cast out of the Hells in the form of a lowly imp...

Did anyone else notice that this guy managed to go straight to imp from death? That's ****ing huge, completely skipped like 3 ranks right from the get go! Must have done something pretty good here, right?

[Phelix-Mu]

SHE (hehe) is a bartender in Gehenna, with some unspecified levels in something or other, now semi-retired and found the complaints of fiends slightly more stimulating than others. I guess that makes her weird.

In any case, one day an imp walks into her bar and hops onto a barstool.

"Wings hurt?" She asks.

"No, just my ass," it replies snidely.

She pours a dollop of Gehennan brandy into a diminutive glass. "Wanna talk about it?"

The imp knocks it back and orders a double, mumbling about a tab.

"Never mind, on the house," She replies, sensing a future regular in the imp.

After a suitably long silence, the imp starts to gush.

Long story short, Asmodeus chewed him out...he thinks. Not really clear, but now he's a homeless imp.

"Well, ever thought about some part-time work in a bar?" she inquires, suddenly interested in the imp.

She dusts off her gear and pays Asmodeus a visit. She and he get on alright, just at arms length. Boundaries are important in a relationship; She knows he's busy with his fingers in everyone's pie, and he's glad she's semi-retired.

Or he was glad.

[Hero Wannabe visits Big A and schmoozes appropriately, hoping the Lord of Nessus will impart some knowledge to her of what in the Nine Hells has been happening on the Prime. Not that she knows much, but let's just say that her patrons have been a little edgier the last few days (and suspiciously higher in level). Consider that she applies some resource to a decent Diplomacy check and approaches Big A with a look toward solving his problem (if that is indeed how he views someone slaying his servants with impunity).

Supposing it is dangerous and Big A doesn't want direct contact, She informs him of a network of sequestered simulacra of herself that she keeps around for information compartmentalization and utility. A secure dropbox setup gets a minion the address of one of the simulacra (she's removed that info from her own memory), and the minion can give the info to Big A, who can now get rid of the sequester by [insert clever method].

Should he chose to use it, the simulacra receives the info. If it dies due to whatever, a Craft Contingent Spell is set off, alerting She to the fact. She then equips another simulacra for time travel, sending it back to observe the death of the first one. If it's safe, it forwards the info to an intermediary, who judges whether the actual She needs to know.]

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I think this is more of the DM wanting us to find an actual defense, instead of saying "Im immune to ALL the things" Which is while sad, is understandable.
Got 5 minutes so I'm answering this one first;
Your assumption is faulty. IT is simply built in such a way that IT has normal stats for what IT is... but could also get access to many, if not all, TO tricks if it tried. When running it, I am doing so in the same way I'd do in a campaign, plus with any TO tricks in mind the opposition is exploiting.


So the more TO exploits you're using, the harder the fight.

[Phelix-Mu]

Got 5 minutes so I'm answering this one first;
Your assumption is faulty. IT is simply built in such a way that IT has normal stats for what IT is... but could also get access to many, if not all, TO tricks if it tried. When running it, I am doing so in the same way I'd do in a campaign, plus with any TO tricks in mind the opposition is exploiting.


So the more TO exploits you're using, the harder the fight.

Aww, now I just want to invite IT to tea and crumpets and work out this whole world-destruction thing like responsible adults. I mean, killing people or blowing up planets really is just about the least interesting (and shortest duration of amusement) that anyone with huge power can come up with.

Maybe IT is up for a bit more Rasputin, a bit less Attila the Hun?:smallsmile:

[Extra Anchovies]

Aww, now I just want to invite IT to tea and crumpets and work out this whole world-destruction thing like responsible adults. I mean, killing people or blowing up planets really is just about the least interesting (and shortest duration of amusement) that anyone with huge power can come up with.

Maybe IT is up for a bit more Rasputin, a bit less Attila the Hun?:smallsmile:

Indeed. If IT uses TO tricks, then IT is one of us! Maybe IT is actually just Belial_the_Leveler? :smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

Indeed. If IT uses TO tricks, then IT is one of us! Maybe IT is actually just Belial_the_Leveler? :smallbiggrin:

Hehe, yeah, I was trying to think of a way to maybe entice IT to do something other than destroy everything. Unfortunately, IT has no real incentive to do other than as IT pleases, and compelling or convincing it runs into the whole circular logic that Belial just outlined (as more mechanical oomph in my arsenal will result in even more mechanical oomph in its arsenal).

Actually, there probably is something to be done here with this. Not sure just yet, but I think we can probably come up with a way to either destroy everything first (thus preventing IT from destroying everything), or maybe convince it that everything has been sufficiently destroyed.

Ah, why does my brain keep wanting to use Dream of Metal here? Aside from the awesome fluff, ofc.

[ninjamaster1991]

Actually, there probably is something to be done here with this. Not sure just yet, but I think we can probably come up with a way to either destroy everything first (thus preventing IT from destroying everything), or maybe convince it that everything has been sufficiently destroyed.

Well, I passed the "Actually destroy everything" mark a while ago with my super-cultist build.

As for the "Pretend to destroy everything" plan, I don't think Bluff has any counters besides a higher Sense Motive...

[Crake]

Well, I passed the "Actually destroy everything" mark a while ago with my super-cultist build.

As for the "Pretend to destroy everything" plan, I don't think Bluff has any counters besides a higher Sense Motive...

I'd imagine any sufficiently optimised bluff check would be opposed by an equally optimised sense motive check, so that's not really gonna work

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd imagine any sufficiently optimised bluff check would be opposed by an equally optimised sense motive check, so that's not really gonna work

I was thinking more along the lines of trying to convince it that everything that IT was going to destroy is already destroyed, but this would involve a huge amount of work, like getting all of the gods to realize a threat might occur in the future and agree to some kind of cold sleep/Ark plan that would shut down everything, or maybe Force Dream all of reality into being destroyed, and continue reality inside someone's shared microcosm.

Sounds impossible, but then so does killing IT by normal means.

Really, did IT really go up against the dicefreaks versions of four gods? Cause that right there is bonkers. I think their Orcus was CR 67 off the top of my head, and the gods were a step above that. Now my brain hurts.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Dicefreaks gods used to be in the CR 60-65 range. Their Asmodeus is 81 in the version of Gates of Hell I got. Their Demogorgon and my IT would be higher. Curbstomping a pantheon in a fair fight would be fairly typical. Them preparing appropriately for an unfair fight or ambush might work. That said, Dicefreaks campaigns and material assume TO stuff doesn't apply. But because many people in challenges like this one do, I built IT to exploit or foil such TO if the players decide to introduce it.


@Asmodeus:
Upon any supplicant approaching the Lord of the Pit for information, they are immediately almost overwhelmed by the Greater Deity of Evil's direct attention.
IT IS A FOE ONCE FACED AT THE DAWN OF TIME. IT CANNOT BE DESTROYED, ONLY RESTRAINED. I HOLD THE KEY TO ITS DEFEAT. I WILL USE IT, IN EXCHANGE FOR SERVICE.
Anyone attempting such an audience roll Sense Motive. It cannot be modified by magic or items without Asmodeus' permission, which he'd be unlikely to give. (you're in his domain, he has manipulated some planar traits to his advantage and/or employed Alter Reality upon it to his liking. Among other things, you're effectively in an extraordinary AMF and similar suppression effects, with transmutation, illusion, divination and conjuration further Limited)

[ben-zayb]

Dicefreaks gods used to be in the CR 60-65 range. Their Asmodeus is 81 in the version of Gates of Hell I got. Their Demogorgon and my IT would be higher. Curbstomping a pantheon in a fair fight would be fairly typical. Them preparing appropriately for an unfair fight or ambush might work. That said, Dicefreaks campaigns and material assume TO stuff doesn't apply. But because many people in challenges like this one do, I built IT to exploit or foil such TO if the players decide to introduce it.


@Asmodeus:
Upon any supplicant approaching the Lord of the Pit for information, they are immediately almost overwhelmed by the Greater Deity of Evil's direct attention.
IT IS A FOE ONCE FACED AT THE DAWN OF TIME. IT CANNOT BE DESTROYED, ONLY RESTRAINED. I HOLD THE KEY TO ITS DEFEAT. I WILL USE IT, IN EXCHANGE FOR SERVICE.
Anyone attempting such an audience roll Sense Motive. It cannot be modified by magic or items without Asmodeus' permission, which he'd be unlikely to give. (you're in his domain, he has manipulated some planar traits to his advantage and/or employed Alter Reality upon it to his liking. Among other things, you're effectively in an extraordinary AMF and similar suppression effects, with transmutation, illusion, divination and conjuration further Limited)
Will Asmodeus slaughter a lowly ImpErinyes who attempts an audience? To make things interesting, said ImpErinyes pledged loyalty and allegiance to the Lord of Hellfire himself (AKA the one who, by Afroakuma's canon, constantly openly insults, threatens, and challenges Asmodeus)

EDIT: Didn't notice Imps aren't a playable monster race...

[Renen]

Why would Asmodeus want something for the key? Cuz if IT destroys the world, he aint getting more souls. That's probably not a good scenario for him.

[EisenKreutzer]

Why would Asmodeus want something for the key? Cuz if IT destroys the world, he aint getting more souls. That's probably not a good scenario for him.

Why would he intervene personally when he can both get someone else to do it for him and get them to give him something he wants as well?

If they fail, Asmodeus can step in and take the risk, but as long as someone is stupid enough to offer to help him and pay for it, theres no need for him to risk anything.

[Renen]

Similarly, no one will go to him, because it is known that he values souls, and will not let the world end and be letf w/o souls.

I think im out of ideas. What does it take for belial to reveal the stats? Certain number of people giving up? or certain amount of days w/o post?

[Phelix-Mu]

Similarly, no one will go to him, because it is known that he values souls, and will not let the world end and be letf w/o souls.

I think im out of ideas. What does it take for belial to reveal the stats? Certain number of people giving up? or certain amount of days w/o post?

My character would go to him, because she's neutral, powerful enough to not much care about the fate of the world or Asmodeus' motives, and because she hears she can get a mean cup of tea in the Dark Lord's waiting room.

Honestly, any port in a storm, right?

And, as to the supply of souls, I think Asmodeus might view a one-time bonanza surplus of mortals seeking salvation at his feet as the world crumbles as a kind of compensation for a future shortage, given that the surplus is also sweetened by him a.) not having to get his face stomped, and b.) watching everyone else get their face stomped (which can be very rewarding, given popcorn and a taste for retribution).

Granted, in the long term he might have less of a job, but I'm sure he can just check Contingency File ZZ34320 to examine his plans for future employment in the event of the collapse of reality. I mean, Asmodeus.


@Attempt #NI:

She is sending a simulacrum to talk to Asmodeus. I mean, She hardly ever does anything in person these days, but spends time sharing experiences across the minds of any number of simulacra.

I guess some more detail is in order:

She has the manifesting abilities of a psion of 20th level; if necessary, she also has wizard levels and enough cerebremancer to net her what she doesn't have access to via psychic chirurgery (see below).

She has a cohort StP erudite via Leadership or a Thrallherd dip. She avoids exploiting either source because she finds turnover among her repertoire of "friends" to be distasteful and disorienting.

She carefully used psychic chirurgery on her cohort (and her cohort used it on her) to get a large number of spells from other spell lists as powers known, and paid for it in experience via good, old fashioned hunting down high CR creatures and defeating them in a variety of challenges. She relishes new experiences, and doesn't mind footing the bill for the power to acquire them.

She knows all powers worth knowing by the same repeated use of psychic chirurgery, using psychic reformation and iterations of Expanded Knowledge as necessary. She's not going for broke here, just filling her toolbox with needed tools (or stuff required for the latest brand of fun to catch her eye).

She makes extensive use of simulacra, mainly via the Frostburn item simulacrum elixir (unless it needs to be presentable, in which case she uses a scroll or whatever). She has made many, many copies of herself over the years, as she switched bodies via true mind switch, some of whom she even sets free to live their own lives, under the agreement that they funnel her information and allow her to scry on them (she's a terrible voyeur/vicarious person).

She generally refrains from evil, but has made careful use of mind seed several times in the past. She feels bad about it, but views the amount of good that she can do with multiple copies of herself wandering about as compensation; she also mitigates by performing the mind switch shuffle with targets when feasible, allowing them to continue to experience life in another body.

Much like Big A, she insulates herself via redundancy, minions, and contingency. Little of anything is done without buffing of one of her copies (or the copy of something else).


So, with that out of the way, buffed copy of She is unlikely to foil Asmodeus' bluff attempt, but informs Asmodeus to her willingness to deal, given that this version of She is but a copy given limited free will, and is likely soulless (DM call if simulacra have soul-copies...unlikely), and so she has little to offer him as compensation, as She will cease to exist upon death. But the copy is willing and has some class levels; if Asmodeus will deal with her, then deal on (the simulacrum behaves as She would, and although the original might be more cautious, as her higher level makes possible, she is still generally interested in the offer to deal, based on whatever terms he gives).

The copy of She is capable of relaying info to her original, though, and let's Asmodeus know that she is required to do so as part of her functionality. She can provide service in sequestration from her original, but must receive permission to do so.

All of this is done politely, as the copy was buffed in Diplomacy before going in. The copy takes some pain to indicate that no offense is meant by sending a copy, just an overture, a precaution. Much better to whet the palette first, so to speak, than to jump to the main course right away. The real She may make an appearance, but all that the copy can guarantee is her own service, limited though it may be in the eyes of the Dark Lord. She is part of a huge network of resources, though, and she is sure that Asmodeus can appreciate the usefulness of such resources, if not their direct power.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Been RL-busy during the weekend, hence the delay.

2) Asmodeus is willing to deal with anyone. The reward he wants for his part in defeating IT is either a) the souls of the other party, or b) him being acknowledged as being responsible for victory in the fight with IT. (either will significantly improve his position in the end)

3) Asmodeus tells you the key takes 1 hour to use. The other party must prevent IT from interfering for that time - such as by directly fighting or otherwise distracting IT.

4) Simulacra don't have souls or other XP-related components. Their creator does though.

[Extra Anchovies]

2) Asmodeus is willing to deal with anyone. The reward he wants for his part in defeating IT is either a) the souls of the other party, or b) him being acknowledged as being responsible for victory in the fight with IT. (either will significantly improve his position in the end)

3) Asmodeus tells you the key takes 1 hour to use. The other party must prevent IT from interfering for that time - such as by directly fighting or otherwise distracting IT.

Hm. So we need enough people to delay IT for 1 hour. I feel like a human wave attack (or defense, really) would be most effective here.

Also, counter-offer to Asmodeus: we'll promise your our souls (as well as our aid in slowing IT down enough for Asmodeus to use the key) in exchange for 1) ITs defeat with your assistance, and 2) our being promoted to Spined Devils upon ITs defeat. Don't want to have to start all the way down at soul-maggot if we're putting our lives on the line here.

[EisenKreutzer]

Hm. So we need enough people to delay IT for 1 hour. I feel like a human wave attack (or defense, really) would be most effective here.

Also, counter-offer to Asmodeus: we'll promise your our souls (as well as our aid in slowing IT down enough for Asmodeus to use the key) in exchange for 1) ITs defeat with your assistance, and 2) our being promoted to Spined Devils upon ITs defeat. Don't want to have to start all the way down at soul-maggot if we're putting our lives on the line here.

How long will it take for IT to recover from the Sphere of Annihilation trick?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) IT recovers from the sphere in 3 rounds normally, instantly if it is in a hurry.


2) Asmodeus agrees to the terms. :smallamused:

[Darkweave31]

Eh, I'll take a whack at it...



I command a team of 20 ice assassins (IA) of my aleax to scout its abilities.

Thanks to its singular enemy (ex) ability, only I can ever harm or affect it in any way. All other attacks are ineffective. Ghostform and superior invisibility just because. We'll say detection buffs like true sight, greater arcane sight, etc cast here as well. Finally, right before leaving activate cosmic connection from cosmic descryer.

After pre-buffing, an IA of a solar wishes (no error and regardless of any local condition) the IAs to a secured dead magic demiplane before the team is wished into the abomination's presence at varying distances and directions. They all immediately make a relevant knowledge check with +NI bonus gained from cosmic connection (no damage taken since they can't hurt themselves). Information is relayed through the ranks of my IAs and eventually gets to me via interplanar telepathic bond. If they don't report back immediately and contact is lost another wish is used on the next initiative count to recall them to a secured deadmagic demiplane where a messenger/containment team can be wished in and out for debriefing and evaluation if there's anything left of them. What do I know about it?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A dead magic zone suppresses all magic as per antimagic field. In addition, it specifically suppresses travel via spells into or out of it. Unless your Wish can ignore antimagic or you're a deity, you can't transport stuff in or out of it.


The general results of knowledge checks were posted a couple pages back. After you check those, are you searching for anything specific about IT?


Read carefully the Aleax entry. Singular enemy does not do what you posted, exactly. This might be relevant in the future.

[Forrestfire]

Wish transport ignores local conditions entirely, so it should work for transporting things in, at least. Would need a way of casting in an AMF to get out, though.

[Renen]

Theres always the "invoke magic" spell.
Or maybe research epic version on invoke magic that goes up to lvl 9 spells...

But really... I'd just use psion save game trick, wait an hour and activate it. I think trick only reverses the time on your plane. So if asmo is doing his thing on another plane, we are good.

I wonder... would a maze spell cast by a deity work?

[bobthedragon]

I've never actually looked at the rules for epic level spellcasting, and I should probably read more of the thread to see what has and has not worked, but here's the basic outline of my standard submission for this type of thing =)
warforged (don't need to eat/sleep/breath)
Level 20 Artificer/ Level 20 Psionic Artificer/ 60 levels of commoner
Nested Thought bottles
Any kind of infinite wealth trick or cost reduction shenanigans.

Have Two sets of the following items- (extra ring feat allows use of 4 rings)
continuous ring of timeless body
continuous ring of shapechange
continuous ring of wings of cover
continuous ring of dimensional anchor (can't be teleported if I don't want to be)
command activated item of master earth
continuous item of foresight
Tinfoil hat trick (just because I think it's funny, and all my builds try to have it =P
Continuous item of mind blank
Crafted contingent true resserection
crafted contingent master earth- if

Use the DragonLance material timetravel shinnanigans to go back in time to the moment of my creation and give myself one of the two sets, so that at every point in my entire timeline I'm pretty much unkillable.

Some point after my paranoid master craftsman has all this, he heres about some superpowerful creature, shapechanges into a zodar, and uses infinite wishes to
1) Find out all possible information about it
2) Send it a message complimenting its power, including a gift basket full of assorted baked goods (made using craft(underwater basketweaving)
3) politely asking it to die, or if it seems nice, invite it to dinner to discuss world domination
4) Going through the assorted permutations of "I wish X creature/character was dead"
5) If none of this works, take off my ring of dimensional anchor and use wish to teleport without error next to it, have a couple of contingencies that the moment I appear next to it, a chain of greater celerities and time stops are set off, a dimensional lock is cast around me/it, and I have a readied action to send a sphere of ultimate destruction at it to make it die.
6) If I find myself inside an antimagic zone or dead magic area, once I'm inside the tinfoil hat trick and out of LoE from the dead magic, a contingent teleport will take me back to where I was, and I will immediately spread the word of everything I learned about it to all the adventurers of the world so that they see this big challenge and kill it for me =)

[The Insaniac]

I place a sphere of annihilation in a well of many worlds. Then I mock the creature for being slower at destroying the multiverse than I am. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Does IT survive?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Renen:
1) Invoke Magic only works with up to 4th level effects.
2) Attempting the save game trick has it fizzle as if you tried it within antimagic - and then you die. Not that it would work a second time (esp. if it only works on single plane), it's just that IT is only going to be surprised by any trick once and if IT can counter repeat attempts, it does.


@bobthedragon:
This has come up before. Under the effects of Timeless Body, you're immune to beneficial effects too. You can't travel magically anywhere - you have to walk. You can't change shape or benefit from any magical buffs whatsoever. If your contingencies trigger, they have no effect on you. Even your other magic items would give no benefits (they're SP effects).
So to do most things, you'd have to take your ring of absolute immunity off.


@The Insaniac:
I don't see how that destroys the Multiverse. Assuming the well survived contact with the Sphere, it would just send it in a random location.

[The Insaniac]

My mistake, it only erases the material plane from existence.

From Elder Evils p. 142:


The sphere becomes a “black hole,”annihilating everything in existence. If abandoned, it picks up speed and power, drawing the island, the waters, the air and everything else on the Material Plane into its dimensional fissure, erasing all existence in 1d12+6 minutes.

[Renen]

I know how invoke magic works.
But since the question was whether someone can leave a dead magic plane... then 4th lvl spells ARE the answer.

Also, I DID suggest making an epic version of invoke magic.
Though to be honest, I think that all our attempts will be answered by
"IT senses Asmodeus doing his thing, and teleports away to stop him. You cant do anything, and also die"

[Almaseti]

Is anyone working with Asmodeus going to ask him if he knows how it keeps killing people who attack it?

Alternately, I know this is OOC knowledge, but use one divination/knowledge checks/etc to try to find the 2 people (or other one, if Asmodeus is one) who know the story of how and why it came to Mulholrand. Or IC, figure out if anyone knows the thing's origins.

[Urpriest]

For Wishing people off of a dead magic plane, just make sure the Solar isn't there as well. I presume that was what the person who suggested this was assuming.

[Auron3991]

Question, are we using the raw version of diplomacy?

If we are, 28th lv bard half-elf, 30 Cha, 16 Int, 5 ranks bluff, 5 ranks knowledge(nobility), 5 ranks Sense Motive, 31 ranks diplomacy, skill focus diplomacy, negotiator. Use remaining skill ranks to get languages to have 20 total languages (including every language listed in the phb).


Total diplomacy modifier of +54 (31 ranks, +2 racial, +6 synergies, +5 feats, +10 ability mod), attempt a diplomacy check to turn it Helpful (Hostile to Helpful is DC 50).

Laugh as the gods fear my new best friend.

[Urpriest]

Question, are we using the raw version of diplomacy?

If we are, 28th lv bard half-elf, 30 Cha, 16 Int, 5 ranks bluff, 5 ranks knowledge(nobility), 5 ranks Sense Motive, 31 ranks diplomacy, skill focus diplomacy, negotiator. Use remaining skill ranks to get languages to have 20 total languages (including every language listed in the phb).


Total diplomacy modifier of +54 (31 ranks, +2 racial, +6 synergies, +5 feats, +10 ability mod), attempt a diplomacy check to turn it Helpful (Hostile to Helpful is DC 50).

Laugh as the gods fear my new best friend.

I presume the monster has a way around this...but I'm curious to know what it is. :smallwink:

[Magma Armor0]

Question, are we using the raw version of diplomacy?

If we are, 28th lv bard half-elf, 30 Cha, 16 Int, 5 ranks bluff, 5 ranks knowledge(nobility), 5 ranks Sense Motive, 31 ranks diplomacy, skill focus diplomacy, negotiator. Use remaining skill ranks to get languages to have 20 total languages (including every language listed in the phb).


Total diplomacy modifier of +54 (31 ranks, +2 racial, +6 synergies, +5 feats, +10 ability mod), attempt a diplomacy check to turn it Helpful (Hostile to Helpful is DC 50).

Laugh as the gods fear my new best friend.

might just want to grab polyglot, the feat. Gives all languages spoken.

[ninjamaster1991]

might just want to grab polyglot, the feat. Gives all languages spoken.

Or just use the spell Tongues.

[Urpriest]

Or just use the spell Tongues.

Better use 17 levels of Monk for Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Lets you speak to any living creature, even those that lack a language.

[Extra Anchovies]

Better use 17 levels of Monk for Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Lets you speak to any living creature, even those that lack a language.

And Monks have Diplomacy in-class! Perfect!

Now we just need to find someone willing to take 17 levels of Monk...

[Auron3991]

might just want to grab polyglot, the feat. Gives all languages spoken.

Thanks, I was working out of the core 3 books. Does it have any pre-reqs my build would need?

[Renen]

And Monks have Diplomacy in-class! Perfect!

Now we just need to find someone willing to take 17 levels of Monk...

Be Illithid savant
Find lvl 17+ monk
Eat his brain
???
Profit!

[Extra Anchovies]

Be Illithid savant
Find lvl 17+ monk
Eat his brain
???
Profit!

Excellent! Nice to know that TO always offers an alternative to monk levels.

[Renen]

Yeh. Because even if you have 100 levels, even 1 level of monk is still too many. http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/happy/happy.gif

[Magma Armor0]

Thanks, I was working out of the core 3 books. Does it have any pre-reqs my build would need?

Just that you know 5 languages, IIRC. AFB atm. (Holy abbreviations, Batman!)

[Heliomance]

Amusingly, Tongue of the Sun and Moon doesn't function on constructs or undead. It specifies living creatures.

[Emperor Tippy]

For Wishing people off of a dead magic plane, just make sure the Solar isn't there as well. I presume that was what the person who suggested this was assuming.

Or you just make it not a dead magic plane using Planar Bubble/ Planar Pocket. Let's you totally ignore Dead Magic planes.

[Auron3991]

Just that you know 5 languages, IIRC. AFB atm. (Holy abbreviations, Batman!)
Okay, I'm only moderately acronym literate, so a lot of that at the end didn't make sense to me. However, I took a looked up the Polyglot feat and that 25 Int requirement raises the lv of the build quite a bit. I'll take the risk for now and hope that 20 languages will be enough.

[Urpriest]

Or you just make it not a dead magic plane using Planar Bubble/ Planar Pocket. Let's you totally ignore Dead Magic planes.

The Dead Magic is being used to make sure the ice assassins can't be magically observed/influenced, so obviating it with tactics like those is not useful.


Okay, I'm only moderately acronym literate, so a lot of that at the end didn't make sense to me. However, I took a looked up the Polyglot feat and that 25 Int requirement raises the lv of the build quite a bit. I'll take the risk for now and hope that 20 languages will be enough.

25 Int is doable pre-epic. Remember, it includes magic gear as long as you're wearing it when you take the feat.

[Emperor Tippy]

The Dead Magic is being used to make sure the ice assassins can't be magically observed/influenced, so obviating it with tactics like those is not useful.
Dead Magic does nothing to stop divination so long as the divination's are done from outside of the area. And Mind Blank stops all of that anyways.

[Urpriest]

Dead Magic does nothing to stop divination so long as the divination's are done from outside of the area. And Mind Blank stops all of that anyways.

Ok, stops them from being magically influenced then. (Not mentally influenced specifically, influenced in general.)

[Emperor Tippy]

Ok, stops them from being magically influenced then. (Not mentally influenced specifically, influenced in general.)
Honestly, Epic Magic takes care of magical influences easily. The Ward seed can easily give total immunity to non epic magic.

Then there is the Permanent Emanation: Selective Anti-Magic Field. That shuts down virtually all magical influences.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@antimagic:
You do remember deific beings ignore antimagic and (nonepic) dispel magic effects, right? As for epic wards, there's options for blocking spells. Lots of things that aren't spells.


@diplomancy:
As soon as diplomancy is on the table, a voice whispers in your mind how pointless your existence and the universe really is. It makes a diplomacy check and you're now a fanatic nihilist commiting ritual suicide. This reaches you anywhere in the multiverse. It has a 5% chance of failure but hey, that's what repeats are for.

[Emperor Tippy]

@antimagic:
You do remember deific beings ignore antimagic and (nonepic) dispel magic effects, right? As for epic wards, there's options for blocking spells. Lots of things that aren't spells.
And you have a book and page reference for that claim? Because all that the SRD has to say on the subject is that Salient Divine Abilities ignore AMF's. They also ignore Dead Magic planes and everything else short of the base of the Spire in the Outlands.

And Epic Ward's block spells, spell like abilities, and spell like effects from magic items. So the only magic that gets through is Supernatural abilities.



@diplomancy:
As soon as diplomancy is on the table, a voice whispers in your mind how pointless your existence and the universe really is. It makes a diplomacy check and you're now a fanatic nihilist commiting ritual suicide. This reaches you anywhere in the multiverse. It has a 5% chance of failure but hey, that's what repeats are for.

And yet I note that in the OP you claimed that your creature uses zero home brewed abilities, being only a combination of different published abilities. So please, tell me where that ability is hanging out?

[Extra Anchovies]

And yet I note that in the OP you claimed that your creature uses zero home brewed abilities, being only a combination of different published abilities. So please, tell me where that ability is hanging out?

Indeed. The characters undertaking the actions put forth in this thread are being controlled by human players outside of the game, and are thus player characters; this means they're immune to the "influencing NPC attitudes" use of Diplomacy (and also of Intimidate), and we aren't attempting a negotiation so it's not an opposed check.

[Flickerdart]

Indeed. The characters undertaking the actions put forth in this thread are being controlled by human players outside of the game, and are thus player characters; this means they're immune to the "influencing NPC attitudes" use of Diplomacy (and also of Intimidate), and we aren't attempting a negotiation so it's not an opposed check.
And, more importantly, Fanatic is mind-affecting and everyone who's anyone is immune.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
The above is included in the writeup of dispel magic and antimagic field.



And Epic Ward's block spells, spell like abilities, and spell like effects from magic items. So the only magic that gets through is Supernatural abilities.
It does so by spell level. So if you've blocked effects of X level and someone heightens, if you use abilities that don't have a spell level, if you use abilities of a different spell level that replicate a given effect and so on and so forth.


So please, tell me where that ability is hanging out?
How many ways of remote communication are there in the SRD alone? Pick one, use diplomacy through it. Gaining telepathy and then getting in range of the target in ways that can't be easily detected is a good option as the target can't find you till it's too late. Sending could potentially work too, if you get rid of the long casting time, but has the risk of getting reflected back on you if someone has spell turning. Of course, there's at least one way that weakness of sending and other remote communication effects can be used to your advantage...



@Extra Anchovies/Flickerdart:
I'd forgotten that weakness of Diplomacy so no turning the PCs against themselves. At least the anti-diplomacy protections on IT will prevent the PCs of using it too.

[Renen]

With all the stuff this thing can do, I vote for just giving up and looking on the stat block >_<
I for one am interested how it got past quintessence for example

[Kazyan]

IT may be using the Marty trick to make nothing ever possibly work ever, and we wouldn't know about it because of how time works with the Marty trick. If so, we need a way to intercept the fusion as it opens its gate, break it up, destroy the dorje of Time Regression, and then deal with IT.

Does anyone know how it could come back from a Sphere of Annihilation, though? Maybe IT has multiple bodies?

[Renen]

Marty's trick? Link? :-)

[Flickerdart]

Does anyone know how it could come back from a Sphere of Annihilation, though? Maybe IT has multiple bodies?
Fission would do the trick - all that happens when one dies is the other takes a negative level.

[Urpriest]

IT may be using the Marty trick to make nothing ever possibly work ever, and we wouldn't know about it because of how time works with the Marty trick. If so, we need a way to intercept the fusion as it opens its gate, break it up, destroy the dorje of Time Regression, and then deal with IT.

Does anyone know how it could come back from a Sphere of Annihilation, though? Maybe IT has multiple bodies?

IT almost certainly has multiple bodies, considering the large number of ways to make them. We should be assuming that IT has, if not 9th level spells, then at least the TO-complete set of them.

[Kazyan]

Marty's trick? Link? :-)

I actually can't find it through Google anymore. Off the top of my head, it involves creating a fusion entity in the Far Realms with a dorje of Time Regression and a scroll of Gate. The fusion constantly opens a Gate near Marty (at a random point in the timeline, due to how the Far Realms work) and uses Time Regression, which lets him monitor Marty's entire existence. If anything bad ever happens to Marty, he keeps scrubbing the timeline near that point in Marty's existence until he bad thing doesn't happen anymore, then continues to when the next bad thing is going to happen and repeats until Marty is immortal.

[ninjamaster1991]

With all the stuff this thing can do, I vote for just giving up and looking on the stat block >_<
I for one am interested how it got past quintessence for example

I maintain that I technically killed it with my Commoner 1 cultist build.

also, AFAIK, there's a psionic power that makes you immune to time-based effects.

For my next trick:

1) Eschew Materials
2) Ice Assassin * (n + 1), where n is the required number of ITs for complete planar domination
3) ???
4) Profit!

Ice Assassin's piece of a creature has no listed price, so Eschew Materials completely obliviates the need for getting near a piece of IT (even one not taken from IT).

Given that, how horribly do I die?

[Renen]

Answer of DM: IT feels you making copies of it and you die very horribly.

[otakumick]

is there a point to this? it seems like the moment you think in it's direction you die... I think that this scenario lacks a win con... at least without more information that seems impossible to get seeing as attempting to acquire information leads to instant death

[Tanuki Tales]

Why do I feel like this thing is just a hyper prepared Wizard(s), regardless of what Asmodeus said? Like how the Winslow is the perfect representation of a small, fuzzy green alligator creature, this thing was the perfect representation of a hyper prepared magic user.

I mean, how much of what it's thus far been shown capable of is not in the purview of a PC?

[Renen]

Hence why I wanna just call for a stat sheet and disect its abilities to see how it pulverizes us.

[JustIgnoreMe]

is there a point to this? it seems like the moment you think in it's direction you die... I think that this scenario lacks a win con... at least without more information that seems impossible to get seeing as attempting to acquire information leads to instant death
This is why I abandoned the thread early on. Having since seen the OP change what is RAW behind the scenes (Zodars don't have Wish, Sarukh don't have Manipulate Form, Diplomacy works on PCs), I'm rather glad I did.

None of the OPs houserules are unreasonable, but the challenge was RAW, not RACI.

[Renen]

Well maybe the DM had the creature go back in time and do stuff. But then I wonder why we cant go back further.

But yeh, just give us the stats. I feel some werent raw, like the slip on diplomacy we just noticed.

[ben-zayb]

Eh..many of the esoteric countermeasures so far can be explained by either 1. being able to do what the player can (with a limited window for exceptions), or 2. being able to go back far enough in time to correct its mistakes. Both can be done by RAW without much convoluted means.

Of course, I'm not that good with TO tricks so I'll just sit back and see how this unfolds.

[Renen]

I feel like theres only one right answer, and anything else is a no go. The right answer can range from asking it nicely to stop, to a 2000 word wish.
But I honestly dont feel like trying every single ability in all of DnD against it. Waste of time.

Though I found tbis interesting spell: Binding chain of fate. Negates magic, stops movement (including teleports), deals force damage. All while not targeting the creature. I wonder if its good enough...

[Larrion]

This is ego stroking, plain and simple. If you're confident in whatever thing you cooked up, post it.

[Vaz]

Honestly, we should already have had the character sheet, considering that I used an Ice Assassin to create a character with a NI Knowledge result. All we got was esoteric comments, rather than actual information regarding its abilities - which a NI knowledge check would give. Given up on the thread after reading that list of useless information.

[Heliomance]

Honestly, we should already have had the character sheet, considering that I used an Ice Assassin to create a character with a NI Knowledge result. All we got was esoteric comments, rather than actual information regarding its abilities - which a NI knowledge check would give. Given up on the thread after reading that list of useless information.
Hell, forget about NI Knowledge checks, use the Omniscificer, get truly infinite checks!

[Vaz]

Didn't want to break the game too much XD. The trick with the Omniscifier is that to create your own version of the Omniscifier is going to result in him knowing about you making your own copy - and that it's a threat to his existence. Hence, without relying on the Omni or Pun Pun was my aim in creating the character. Instead, the build to get the NI Int bonus to Knowledges was limited to level 5, without the potential to get more powerful (it's an Outsider Marshal 5/Psion 1 with 2 feats and a Skin of Proteus - hardly a threat to the cosmos/everything's existence).

[Heliomance]

Didn't want to break the game too much XD. The trick with the Omniscifier is that to create your own version of the Omniscifier is going to result in him knowing about you making your own copy - and that it's a threat to his existence. Hence, without relying on the Omni or Pun Pun was my aim in creating the character. Instead, the build to get the NI Int bonus to Knowledges was limited to level 5, without the potential to get more powerful (it's an Outsider Marshal 5/Psion 1 with 2 feats and a Skin of Proteus - hardly a threat to the cosmos/everything's existence).

Why would it result in him knowing about your existence? He doesn't keep those infinite bonuses after he drown-heals himself up (or dies). He has no way of knowing about stuff that happens afterwards.

And even if he did, if you mean him no harm, then he would know that and have no reason to stop you.

[Auron3991]

Well, since my diplomacy card was turned against me, I'm going with this. Lv 80 wizard with two fortieth lv cohorts, one a wizard, one a cleric of Olidammara. On the astral plane, have the fortieth lv wizard constantly renewing cloister and the cleric using divine magic and deity's blessing for further obscurity. Use epic spell to create a circular pocket dimension with gravity set to the central ring. Use wish spell to create a pillar of iron in the dimension going at a velocity to create a continuous free fall. Allow iron to reach speeds that asteroids would consider insane. Create gate spell in pocket dimension to a point just outside the dead magic zone, aiming at the creature. Have cleric ask deities for aid while this is going on. Rince/repeat as necessary. Have gods on standby to seal it as physical form is destroyed (or simply use this as the distraction for Asmodeus to use super-sealing effect).

[Kazyan]

Well, since my diplomacy card was turned against me, I'm going with this. Lv 80 wizard with two fortieth lv cohorts, one a wizard, one a cleric of Olidammara. On the astral plane, have the fortieth lv wizard constantly renewing cloister and the cleric using divine magic and deity's blessing for further obscurity. Use epic spell to create a circular pocket dimension with gravity set to the central ring. Use wish spell to create a pillar of iron in the dimension going at a velocity to create a continuous free fall. Allow iron to reach speeds that asteroids would consider insane. Create gate spell in pocket dimension to a point just outside the dead magic zone, aiming at the creature. Have cleric ask deities for aid while this is going on. Rince/repeat as necessary. Have gods on standby to seal it as physical form is destroyed (or simply use this as the distraction for Asmodeus to use super-sealing effect).

I'd be very amused if all we had to do was hit it with a lot of damage rather than spew TO buzzwords in various combinations and then get indignant when they don't work.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@JustIgnoreMe:
It should be noted that, except for the diplomacy on PCs which was a mistake, everything else was done normally via the creature's abilities, which are not custom. Yes, that includes the "Sarukh does not have manipulate form" thing.

@Vaz:
1) Which skill reveals ability scores? Or chosen feats? Or what class someone is? Or what spells known/memorized they have or other class choices? Which skill reveals templates?
2) If someone is a shapechanger and you only manage to see their assumed form(s), you might have trouble recognizing what they are.
3) Getting infinite knowledge skill checks is as easy as getting infinite disguise or bluff skill checks.


@everyone:
Will be posting the sheet and tactics during the weekend. A bit disappointed most people just posted a few TO tricks instead of fully statted-out and complete tactics and contingencies but oh well.

[Heliomance]

@Vaz:
1) Which skill reveals ability scores? Or chosen feats? Or what class someone is? Or what spells known/memorized they have or other class choices? Which skill reveals templates?
2) If someone is a shapechanger and you only manage to see their assumed form(s), you might have trouble recognizing what they are.
3) Getting infinite knowledge skill checks is as easy as getting infinite disguise or bluff skill checks.


I can't see much justification for hitting a DC aleph-null Knowledge (whatever the relevant skill for the creature type is) check not getting absolutely all relevant information about the creature - basically, its stat sheet. And there's no RAW mechanic for Disguise or Bluff checks interfering with Knowledge checks.

[otakumick]

you know, based on the joke about hitting it with sufficient damage... vecna blooded Imp with mark of cania(I think... books not open...) truenamer 20... reversed minor word of nurturing with dc raised by 5 to autobypass spell resistance for ni damage...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Use disguise to disguise your race. It is opposed by spot, not knowledge.
1b) Make sure enemies can't effectively use spot against you, via distance, illusions or other means.
1c) See your enemies confused as they try to identify you as a dragon and get no match, when you really aren't a dragon at all.

2) Use bluff to convince your enemies you are a dragon when you really aren't. It's opposed by sense motive, not knowledge.
2b) See your enemies confused as they try to identify you as a dragon and get no match, when you really aren't a dragon at all.




Now, did any of you guys make both a spot and sense motive check, sufficiently boosted to succeed, to see if something like that was going on? Nope. Even after that "useless list of info" I gave mentioned the creature assuming the form of a dragon to conceal its power, nobody bothered trying to pierce the disguise.

That said, knowledge skills are still limited to identifying a monster and its special powers and vulnerabilities. They still don't reveal feats, class, ability scores, mundane attacks, total HD, skill ranks, and generally everything that doesn't come from being a given monster. A Great Wurm Red Dragon can be identified as one. Whether it is a standard GWRD or one improved to 80 HD, with the Paragon template, all its ability scores improved fully by inherents, and its spell resistance, DR, caster level, fast healing and the like improved considerably via feats, you will have to use other means to find out.