Things no sensible DM would allow

[atemu1234]

What incredibly cheesy things are out there that no sane DM would allow? Let's start a list.

[SinsI]

Infinite combos

[StreamOfTheSky]

The monster from Serpent Kingdoms that allows Pun Pun to happen
Any infinite loop
Night sticks
Persistent Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Epic Spellcasting
Sanctum Spell (either ban it, or fix stuff like Arcane Thesis so it can't give you -1 spell level adjustment)
Gate spell to get super high HD monsters, or to get a noble genie for inifinite wishes (see also: candle of invocation)
Invisible Spell as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Abrupt Jaunt as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Wings of Cover as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Power Word Pain as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch (both instantly playable if damage can't reduce stat below 1)
Alter Self or Shapechange
Spell Points variant in SRD
Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, and Planar Shepherd (I'm guessing people will be arguing with me about these)

[Feint's End]

The monster from Serpent Kingdoms that allows Pun Pun to happen
Any infinite loop
Night sticks
Persistent Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Epic Spellcasting
Sanctum Spell (either ban it, or fix stuff like Arcane Thesis so it can't give you -1 spell level adjustment)
Gate spell to get super high HD monsters, or to get a noble genie for inifinite wishes (see also: candle of invocation)
Invisible Spell as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Abrupt Jaunt as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Wings of Cover as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Power Word Pain as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch (both instantly playable if damage can't reduce stat below 1)
Alter Self or Shapechange
Spell Points variant in SRD
Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, and Planar Shepherd (I'm guessing people will be arguing with me about these)

By your measures I'm quite insane since I allow a lot of these things.

Night sticks, persistent spell and craft contingent spell are all fine if used with decency.

Edit: on a side note I wouldn't allow infinite loops

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anything infinite, nigh-infinite, or otherwise capable of reaching arbitrarily high values to anything are obvious. Ditto; epic spellcasting.

I'm not terribly fond of metamgic combos that yield negative spell level modifiers.

I'm also not too keen on combos that render a character nearly or factually invulnerable, e.g. fire and acid immune troll, mind switch to ice assassin of an aleax, etc.

-Most- other things can be dealt with by a skilled and/or clever DM.

Edit: ooh definitely add abuse of gate's clause for pulling a creature and compelling it to obey for CL rounds. Absolutely not.

[Extra Anchovies]

Metamagic reduction. Polymorph shenanigans. Leaders**t Leadership.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Metamagic reduction. Polymorph shenanigans. Leaders**t Leadership.

I was going to include Leadership, but there's a lot of times it is entirely fine or useful for making a leader-type character or for filling in more bodies to the party for a small group. It CAN also be abused and is easily the most powerful feat in the game used well. So...tough to place it in the list. I would put it on there as well, but then you'll get dozens of people listing off how it was fine in their game and made the game better.

For the record, my current group really wanted to keep an NPC cleric along. Rather than make it someone's cohort and have them take Leadership, I just let a player run her, give her a full cut of xp and treasure, and treat her in all ways like a full party member so she's not beholden to any one PC's needs. And I reserved the right to decline any proposed actions that would be blatant favoritism towards the PC of the player controlling her or grossly against her own self interest. I think that's a better way to handle adding another character to the party than making the person explicitly one PC's lap dog.

[evangaline]

Depending on the level of op you are going, nothing at all.
You know for reasonable banns I always look at the rules for the test of spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?124216-The-Test-of-Spite-3-51). This deals with most of the infinite loops, and still allows for most of the higher op things to exist.

[heavyfuel]

Spelldancer + Some way of negating fatigue and Con damage (like a simple casting of Sheltered Vitality)

Celerity and Daze immunity

[Crake]

Sanctum Spell (either ban it, or fix stuff like Arcane Thesis so it can't give you -1 spell level adjustment)

Sanctum spell doesn't actually reduce the spell slot that it comes in, it reduces the effective spell level, so for example it's got a lower DC, harder to overcome globes of invulnerability, uses less of a spell turning's charges, things like that. As for it's synergy with arcane thesis, that's not a problem of sanctum spell, any other 0 adjustment metamagic does the same thing.

[Harlot]

hmm - I've banned polymorph all together.

[aleucard]

I'm amazed nobody has mentioned Drown Healing. Another candidate is the myriad uses of a Thought Bottle. Probably the biggest one that comes to mind though is the interpretation of Prestige Paladin plus Battle Blessing that makes every single spell from the base class count as a Paladin spell, and therefore is within the reach of Battle Blessing. That's disgusting enough with just a Cleric, but what about something like Archivist, or Rainbow Servant and friends?

[heavyfuel]

I'm amazed nobody has mentioned Drown Healing.

While this does fit the question, i think the RAI of drowining is pretty clearly not to heal. However, the RAI of chain gate solars isn't as clear.


hmm - I've banned polymorph all together.

I prefer Rich's fix.

[ArqArturo]

Called Shots to the eye.

With horses.

[EisenKreutzer]

Trap shenanigans.

[Forrestfire]

The monster from Serpent Kingdoms that allows Pun Pun to happen
Any infinite loop
Night sticks
Persistent Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Epic Spellcasting
Sanctum Spell (either ban it, or fix stuff like Arcane Thesis so it can't give you -1 spell level adjustment)
Gate spell to get super high HD monsters, or to get a noble genie for inifinite wishes (see also: candle of invocation)
Invisible Spell as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Abrupt Jaunt as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Wings of Cover as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Power Word Pain as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch (both instantly playable if damage can't reduce stat below 1)
Alter Self or Shapechange
Spell Points variant in SRD
Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, and Planar Shepherd (I'm guessing people will be arguing with me about these)

Out of this list, I'm fine with:

Nightsticks
Persistent Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Sanctum Spell and Arcane Thesis
Gate (non-infinite wishes though)
Invisible Spell
Abrupt Jaunt
Wings of Cover (in fact, it's something that I'll point out to people looking for a good utility wand)
Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch
Alter Self and Shapechange
Dweomerkeeper, Incantratrix, and Planar Shepherd (assuming that it doesn't cause intra-party power level disparities).


Among the other things mentioned in this thread, polymorph stuff, celerity and daze immunity... I guess I'm either not sensible, then.

(Now, generally no one actually does a lot of the absurd cheese, but I guess what matters is that I would be fine with it it if happened).

[jaydubs]

The commoner fight club concept I read some time ago (might be mis-remembering), applied to PCs. Essentially, you bare-knuckle box other party members, and count those as semi-appropriate CR encounters to level up super fast.

[LTwerewolf]

I allow nightstick. Not nightsticks. I essentially just don't allow them to stack with themselves. Combine it with extra turning, fine. Even with +8, you're not persisting every spell you have.

[Knaight]

Theoretical Optimization in general tends to be banned from actual play, with good reason.

[nedz]

Parties with too high a tier discrepancy. Most of the specific things listed above would be fine in the right game.

[ohil]

High level Wizards/Sorcerers

[heavyfuel]

Parties with too high a tier discrepancy. Most of the specific things listed above would be fine in the right game.

I've seen parties with Cleric, Wizard (both with splat books) and Fighter and Monk (both core). When I entered the table with my Duskblade I was called OP... Go figure

[ohil]

I've seen parties with Cleric, Wizard (both with splat books) and Fighter and Monk (both core). When I entered the table with my Duskblade I was called OP... Go figure

A player who was a known Min maxer ran a game for us. level 3 gestalt I played a Scout/Ranger and had no magic (traded it away early) and after I built it my buddy said Swift hunter would work and it did. My DM was all ticked off saying we were min maxing.

Or my level 15 Scout. Only time my dm hit me was when he crit and even then he missed me due to my 20% miss chance. That Dm did not stick around long.

[heavyfuel]

A player who was a known Min maxer ran a game for us. level 3 gestalt I played a Scout/Ranger and had no magic (traded it away early) and after I built it my buddy said Swift hunter would work and it did. My DM was all ticked off saying we were min maxing.

Or my level 15 Scout. Only time my dm hit me was when he crit and even then he missed me due to my 20% miss chance. That Dm did not stick around long.

This is usually a problem with DMs that focus too much on combat. They don't usually care if you can bypass the entire quest he had planned with a standar action, but the second you deal over 50 damage consistently or become really hard to hit with attacks, you're the most overpowered thing ever.

But I think the thread was derailed enough for now. My bad.

[EisenKreutzer]

This is for Pathfinder, but:

Sacred Geometry

Calculating Mind.

Those two Feats are a terrible idea to allow for a GM.

[OldTrees1]

The Question needs to be refined. There is nothing* I can list for which I cannot find an exception (a sensible DM in a specific situation with specific players).

*Even Manipulate Form although homebrewing is a strictly superior solution in those cases.

[Roga]

3.0 Animal Lord + 3.0 Shifter. I played it. It's super powerful and a headache of making the whole party do shapeshifting paperwork. My 5 friends and I are oozes, now we're giant eagles, now we're stone giants.

Fiend of Possession as a Player character in a regular party. You're nearly impossible to kill in any encounter not tailored specifically to counter you.

[black-jack]

What incredibly cheesy things are out there that no sane DM would allow? Let's start a list.

Ultimate Magus in a gestalt campaign.

[heavyfuel]

Ultimate Magus in a gestalt campaign.

Ultimate Magus is a dual casting PrC, so it's against Gestalt Rules

[squiggit]

The monster from Serpent Kingdoms that allows Pun Pun to happen
Any infinite loop
Epic Spellcasting
Spell Points variant in SRD
These are the only ones in that list I'm going to actively avoid at all.


Ultimate Magus in a gestalt campaign.

Gestalt rules outright say you shouldn't allow theurge style classes in the first place though.

[gooddragon1]

I'm surprised the number one answer isn't pun-pun (though it does fall under several of the categories mentioned above anyways).

As for leadership, a good way to handle it that I've seen is where you have to meet up with the ones you recruit in the campaign itself and they choose whether or not to follow you.

[black-jack]

Ultimate Magus is a dual casting PrC, so it's against Gestalt Rules

Aaaaaaand it looks like my senior DnD member is showing his wizard bias again. TY for the clarification. :smallsmile:

[heavyfuel]

Leadership is a good core solution for when you're DMing one or two players. Three players might work, if only one gets leadership and they all agree on it.

Outside core you have Gestalt characters, which is an arguably more elegant solution and doesn't cost you a feat.

[nedz]

I've seen parties with Cleric, Wizard (both with splat books) and Fighter and Monk (both core). When I entered the table with my Duskblade I was called OP... Go figure

Player > Build > Class
Clerics and Wizards have low optimisation floor, so they can be quite weak — a Healbot and a Blaster would be weaker than a well built Duskblade — so it's as much a play-style thing as a class thing.

[Necroticplague]

Honestly, there's nothing I can think of that would really fit the thread name. Just some stuff you would reserve for if everyone is going ridiculous. Of course, I do have some things that DMs I've been with before thought fell in that category, so I list it here.

1:In any way gaining access to the Splitting (ex) ability of various Oozes. (because one of me is enough of a headache)
2:Any form of wild shape that lets me become something other than a normal animal.(apparently, even simply 3 magical beast forms is too much)
3:any form of regeneration+immunity to nonlethal damage. (gheden+troll-blooded+only level3=screw your physical traps)
4:any way to reduce metamagic cost to 0 (in the case that brought this up, I turned Split ray into a +0 metamagic when applied to Enervation)
5:Any method of being undead or a non-living construct (DM though they had too many immunities)

[Krobar]

Anything infinite, nigh-infinite, or otherwise capable of reaching arbitrarily high values to anything are obvious. Ditto; epic spellcasting.

I'm not terribly fond of metamgic combos that yield negative spell level modifiers.

I'm also not too keen on combos that render a character nearly or factually invulnerable, e.g. fire and acid immune troll, mind switch to ice assassin of an aleax, etc.

-Most- other things can be dealt with by a skilled and/or clever DM.

Edit: ooh definitely add abuse of gate's clause for pulling a creature and compelling it to obey for CL rounds. Absolutely not.


I have an arrogant, epic bard that took Improved Spell Capacity and Spell Knowledge a bunch of times that used Gate for that exact reason lots of times. Do you know what he does? He gates in pit fiends and makes them bow, scrape, grovel and demean themselves before him.

All of Baator hates him personally.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I have an arrogant, epic bard that took Improved Spell Capacity and Spell Knowledge a bunch of times that used Gate for that exact reason lots of times. Do you know what he does? He gates in pit fiends and makes them bow, scrape, grovel and demean themselves before him.

All of Baator hates him personally.

So why hasn't the lord of the pit (Asmodeus) simply eliminated him. Command a pit fiend to wish him into the presence of a duke, archduke, or even the lord of the pit himself. Use the ruby rod to make him a creature composed entirely of tongues then have him hurled into the squamous pit on avernus. A lifetime of tasting whatever goes on in that pit where lemures are "bred" should teach him to be more careful with his own tongue.

Note: don't actually do this. This was just a colorful reminder that the DM -always- has the tools to "win" if a PC is getting out of hand.

[Extra Anchovies]

This is for Pathfinder, but:

Sacred Geometry

Calculating Mind.

Those two Feats are a terrible idea to allow for a GM.

Odd thing about Calculating Mind is that it actually worsens your chances of success with Sacred Geometry. Odd thing about Sacred Geometry is you have a 100% chance of success with 14 or more ranks in Knowledge (Engineering). Not near 100%, but actually 100%. Check the link in my signature for the thread in which a bunch of GitPers mathed it out ("This thread is the best thread").

[Necroticplague]

Odd thing about Calculating Mind is that it actually worsens your chances of success with Sacred Geometry. Odd thing about Sacred Geometry is you have a 100% chance of success with 14 or more ranks in Knowledge (Engineering). Not near 100%, but actually 100%. Check the link in my signature for the thread in which a bunch of GitPers mathed it out ("This thread is the best thread").

Calculating Mind does have the advantage that if you have more ranks than is needed for the 100%, you can use it to just cut yourself off, saving you time dealing with the extra numbers.

[TheCrowing1432]

Psionics typically.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Psionics typically.

Why would you go there?

Psionics is a well balanced, thematically consistent system that any sensible DM could easily include in any campaign that uses vancian casting (read; virtually all of them).

If you don't like the flavor that's your prerogative but implying that it's unbalanced or insensible is just flat out wrong.

[Venger]

Psionics typically.
actually, no (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/946751)

[Curmudgeon]

DRAGONBLOOD SUBTYPE (Races of the Dragon, page 4):

Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.
If you let a player use that for skipping all the requirements rather than just the dragonblood requirement you should have your DM hat resized, because it's cutting off the flow of blood to your brain.

Pounce granting a full attack in addition to the normal single attack at the end of a charge (instead of in its place) — unless, perhaps, you require the character to have a second full-round action available in the round to take advantage. Pounce shouldn't give you an extra full-round action.

Iron Heart Surge vs. anything without a listed duration, in rounds.

Letting players define how spells work. It's your job to see that spells do what they say, and never anything more.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Most of the things in this thread are highly table-dependent, and therefore are not things no sensible DM would allow. I've played with/allowed half of them! I think the universal stuff that people don't play with are mainly dysfunctional rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333789-Dysfunctional-Rules-Thread-V-Dysfunctions-All-the-Way-Down) that add nothing to the game but confusion and raised eyebrows, and infinite/arbitrarily large combos. The rest.... well, if you ban the really high-power stuff at your table, more power to you, but I wouldn't attack a DM's sensibility if he did allow it.

[heavyfuel]

Iron Heart Surge vs. anything without a listed duration, in rounds.


I assume you mean rounds not in the "round/level" or "x rounds" sense, but as in something you can count in rounds like "1min/lv" actually being "10rounds/lv". Otherwise you have effects in which IHS should totally work on (eg. Ray of Enfeeblement) and that won't

[Venger]

I assume you mean rounds not in the "round/level" or "x rounds" sense, but as in something you can count in rounds like "1min/lv" actually being "10rounds/lv". Otherwise you have effects in which IHS should totally work on (eg. Ray of Enfeeblement) and that won't

something that's minutes or hours still has a duration expressable in rounds. he means things like sunlight, gravity, or existence itself.

[Curmudgeon]

I assume you mean rounds not in the "round/level" or "x rounds" sense, but as in something you can count in rounds like "1min/lv" actually being "10rounds/lv".
That really depends on how picky you are about the rules of grammar. The Iron Heart Surge maneuver will immediately end "one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." Just as the rules of English say "fewer" refers to integers and "less" only to noncountable quantities, this specification is grammatically distinct from "1 round or longer". The Surge should only be effective against impediments with a stated duration of some number of rounds; durations expressed in minutes or other units of time would be unaffected. So you can Surge out of a tanglefoot bag, which stays sticky for 2d4 rounds, but not out of a lava flow, which doesn't have a duration. You also can't cancel some impediment with a duration not expressed in rounds, such as poison (ability damage lasting 1 day per point).

The D&D rules really do make this distinction between the units used for various effects.
Metabreath Feats, Draconomicon page 66:

To take a metabreath feat, a creature must have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds. Therefore, a hell hound (which can breathe once every 2d4 rounds) can take metabreath feats, whereas a behir (breath weapon usable 1/minute) cannot.
Breath weapon says "once every 10 rounds"? Eligible. Breath weapon that says "once every minute"? Not eligible. Are they the same amount of time? Absolutely! And thus the picky attention to grammar actually makes sense with Iron Heart Surge.

[heavyfuel]

That really depends on how picky you are about the rules of grammar. The Iron Heart Surge maneuver will immediately end "one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." Just as the rules of English say "fewer" refers to integers and "less" only to noncountable quantities, this specification is grammatically distinct from "1 round or longer". The Surge should only be effective against impediments with a stated duration of some number of rounds; durations expressed in minutes or other units of time would be unaffected. So you can Surge out of a tanglefoot bag, which stays sticky for 2d4 rounds, but not out of a lava flow, which doesn't have a duration. You also can't cancel some impediment with a duration not expressed in rounds, such as poison (ability damage lasting 1 day per point).

The D&D rules really do make this distinction between the units used for various effects.
Metabreath Feats, Draconomicon page 66:

Breath weapon says "once every 10 rounds"? Eligible. Breath weapon that says "once every minute"? Not eligible. Are they the same amount of time? Absolutely! And thus the picky attention to grammar actually makes sense with Iron Heart Surge.

While I personally wouldn't make this distinction as long as there is a written duration (a lava flow might not last forever, but doesn't also have a RAW duration), I understand that restriction, especially considering IHS is possibly one of the most abusable single mechanics in the game.

Thanks for explanation

[WhamBamSam]

DRAGONBLOOD SUBTYPE (Races of the Dragon, page 4):
If you let a player use that for skipping all the requirements rather than just the dragonblood requirement you should have your DM hat resized, because it's cutting off the flow of blood to your brain.I allow and indeed encourage dragonblood auto-qualification. The only really cheesy things that people try to pull with it don't actually work, and it doesn't get you some uses of the dragonblood subtype, like draconic soulmelds and non-fire DFI.

I do have a ban list for Dragon cheese though.
The Loredrake and Wyrm of War Archetypes for Dragonwrought Kobolds. I do however consider them to be True Dragons and allow all other Sovereign Archetypes.
Epic Toughness for Dragonwrought Kobolds at low levels.
The Riddled and Spellhoarding Dragon Psychoses in pretty much all cases.

There are probably a few other things that I can't think of at the moment, but most things, up to and including Craft Contingent Spell and Leadership are appropriate in the right games. In almost all cases, what should be banned depends on the game and the table in question.

[Curmudgeon]

I allow and indeed encourage dragonblood auto-qualification. The only really cheesy things that people try to pull with it don't actually work, and it doesn't get you some uses of the dragonblood subtype, like draconic soulmelds and non-fire DFI.
How about substitution levels? A Kobold with Dragonwrought at first level is a Dragon, and thus auto-qualifies for Kobold Ranger level 7 substitution level, picking up BAB +7, saves +5/+5/+2 and Ranger 7 spellcasting.

Clearly abusive, but
Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype. It doesn't exclude the level qualification. :smallfurious: That's quite a leg up getting into any prestige class with a BAB entry requirement. For instance, you could (with one flaw for Weapon Focus) enter into Divine Crusader at level 2.

[LTwerewolf]

How about substitution levels? A Kobold with Dragonwrought at first level is a Dragon, and thus auto-qualifies for Kobold Ranger level 7 substitution level, picking up BAB +7, saves +5/+5/+2 and Ranger 7 spellcasting.

Clearly abusive, but It doesn't exclude the level qualification. :smallfurious: That's quite a leg up getting into any prestige class with a BAB entry requirement. For instance, you could (with one flaw for Weapon Focus) enter into Divine Crusader at level 2.

Dragon Ascendant at level 2. Woop Woop. I was actually allowed to do this once, and it didn't actually break the game.

[WhamBamSam]

How about substitution levels? A Kobold with Dragonwrought at first level is a Dragon, and thus auto-qualifies for Kobold Ranger level 7 substitution level, picking up BAB +7, saves +5/+5/+2 and Ranger 7 spellcasting.

Clearly abusive, but It doesn't exclude the level qualification. :smallfurious: That's quite a leg up getting into any prestige class with a BAB entry requirement. For instance, you could (with one flaw for Weapon Focus) enter into Divine Crusader at level 2.That was exactly what I was referring to when I said that the worst abuses didn't work.


A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing—you remain within the class for which the substitution level is taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the standard class’s level.So yes, a Dragonwrought Kobold automatically qualifies for Dragonblood Cleric 9 or whatever regardless of whether he's a Cleric at all or not, but the only time when you can meaningfully act upon that fact is when he's taking his 9th level of Cleric. He also can't take Disciple of the Eye as his first class level even though he qualifies for the PrC, because of the rules saying your first level can't be a PrC (though that'd be less broken anyway).

[Phelix-Mu]

My pet peeve is gate by RAW. It allows anyone to defeat almost anything by simply traveling to a plane other than the target's home plane, gating the creature in, and commanding it to [insert stupid action du jour]. No SR, no save, no immunity. Basically, if there isn't some contingency in effect to block the gate as it happens, then it's impossible to stop. Once you reach the commands stage, any sensible caster can make sure to give commands that will guarantee that the creature dies an unavoidable and possibly very humiliating death (or does any other thing imaginable within the time limit).

Hardly the biggest problem, even just in core, but it peeves me because it hinges on what is essentially just some really crummy writing that no one seems to have checked (basically, that "unique" has no coherent meaning in 3e...they seem to have grandfathered it in from 2e). That and a painfully open-ended effect.

In a broader sense, any spell that grants access to more spells. Exploding class features. Does that sound balanced? No, it doesn't, so why did spells of this nature get written? Did it not occur to them that some wizard would realize that having more spells would be great? And that using spells to get more spells would be lucrative in the extreme? Cause wizards have this genius reputation to live up to, and missing such an obvious source of power would be unconscionable for all but the most brutally stupid of wizards.

[Venger]

rules saying your first level can't be a PrC

I've never heard of this rule before. Where is it?

[tiercel]

My rule of thumb for something that shouldn't be allowed in my game is, does it change the campaign world to allow this use/interpretation of a rule?

If a particular spell or combo could lead to arbitrarily high amounts of wealth/power/invulnerability, someone would have already done it before the PCs. If you're playing in a coherent Tippyverse, that's fine, but if the campaign world actually looks like bog-standard Greyhawk then too-easy "I win" tactics must not actually work.

[Melcar]

The monster from Serpent Kingdoms that allows Pun Pun to happen
Any infinite loop
Night sticks
Persistent Spell
Craft Contingent Spell
Epic Spellcasting
Sanctum Spell (either ban it, or fix stuff like Arcane Thesis so it can't give you -1 spell level adjustment)
Gate spell to get super high HD monsters, or to get a noble genie for inifinite wishes (see also: candle of invocation)
Invisible Spell as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Abrupt Jaunt as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Wings of Cover as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Power Word Pain as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)
Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch (both instantly playable if damage can't reduce stat below 1)
Alter Self or Shapechange
Spell Points variant in SRD
Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, and Planar Shepherd (I'm guessing people will be arguing with me about these)

Nobody at our table find it fun to abuse and break a game, so we seimple avoid abusing stuff. We allow all the above mentioned things, as written. Actually we dont ban anything, we simply make sure that when used its not misused to break the game.

Some times I get really confused as to why this ban need to happen. It would seem to me, that if you have players that actively wants to destroy or make a campaign unplayable by looping and cheesing everything , I would suggest banning the player instead. At our table in our 12 year old game, we usually talk about the cheesy stuff when taken. Like Dweomer Keeper. Yes it could be used to give yourself arbitraryly poweful epic items, but that would render a lot of things redundant in our game, so nobody wants to do that. We do however use it to get some much needed stuff, like tomes, or material components or sftuff to sell. Epic Spells are well not a system anyone have broken out yet, so we'll see how much it will be a problem, when it becomes such, which I doubt it will ever be. Enemies have actually had Epic magic against us at one point...

[Yael]

The forbidden five.

• Beholder Mage level 2nd entry shenanigans.

• Far Realm Planar Shepherd (any Planar Shepherd anyway).

• Tainted Scholar...

• Incantatrix...

• Illithid Savant with same entry shenanigans and a command.

Non-Honorable Mentions.

Infinite Wishes from Candle of Invocation...

Persist Spell...

Divine Metamagic...!

1d2 Crusader...

[Heliomance]

Orb spells being Conjuration, SR: No. Those things are Evocation, dammit. Conjuration really doesn't need to be better at blasting than the blasting school.

[WhamBamSam]

I've never heard of this rule before. Where is it?I could have sworn I'd seen it somewhere before, but I can't find it. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

[Venger]

I could have sworn I'd seen it somewhere before, but I can't find it. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

That may well be the case. Racial paragon classes aside (since some don't count them as prestige classes), forsaker can be entered at 1 via human/strongheart halfling and some source of bonus feat (flaws, DCFS, etc) or nonhuman and 2 bonus feats (grey elf DCFS, etc), leading to a character with only prc lvls and a number of unusual quirks, such as defaulting to type for weapon/armor proficiencies.

[AnonymousPepper]

I'd say it really depends on the sort of game you're running, specifically the seriousness of it.

What I absolutely would never allow basically comes down to infinite loops and TO shenanigans. Even in my current game, where I artfully compensate for my lack of DMing skills and general ability to think things through with a very, very hefty dose of "all of the prime material planes are currently coterminous with the infinite plane of meta" and pure rule of funny, that sort of thing just doesn't fly. It can't, for the sake of the integrity of the game world.

I wouldn't ban it, I'd just go, "Are you sure you want to do that?" followed by an "Are you really sure?" or two, followed by "If you take that action you take full responsibility for the consequences of it," and if he actually does it then the next thing that the player hears is, "To ensure the continued balance of the combined Prime Material Planes, Mordenkainen casts an epic spell on you, no save, no SR, auto-hit, roll up a new character of a different class because you are now permanently deader than dead and removed from the collective memory of everyone in the multiverse including the gods themselves and never try to pull an infinite loop on me again."

But as far as even pure Limburger stuff like DWKobold Loredrake Sorcerers and the like? If your setting is built in the correct way (to handle it, I mean), they absolutely can exist, your PCs might even run into one. They just happen to be the absolute top of the food chain, if not obviously so until they want you to know.

[Necroticplague]

Some more stuff previous DMs of mine had deemed insane:

1. Sanctum spell+eldritch corruption+precocious apprentice early entry (related to next one)
2.Fixed-list caster-rainbow servant interaction (because apparently not wanting to chose between options and prep time is too much)
3.Sand Shaper (see above)
4.Any method of adding a combat maneuver as a rider to an attack, or vice-versa (because apparently it screws up the action economy too much)
5.Pounce (see above).

[Heliomance]

Some more stuff previous DMs of mine had deemed insane:

1. Sanctum spell+eldritch corruption+precocious apprentice early entry (related to next one)
2.Fixed-list caster-rainbow servant interaction (because apparently not wanting to chose between options and prep time is too much)
3.Sand Shaper (see above)
4.Any method of adding a combat maneuver as a rider to an attack, or vice-versa (because apparently it screws up the action economy too much)
5.Pounce (see above).

To be fair, that second one is pretty insanely powerful. SPontaneously casting the entire Cleric spell list? That's amazing.

[Urpriest]

Most stuff in this thread could be viable in the right game, even infinite loops. If infinite loops are a perfectly legitimate part of Magic the Gathering, there's definitely room for them in (insanely high-op) D&D games.

Here's something that no sensible DM would allow: players bringing in characters from other campaigns. Yes, there are DMs who allow this, but I have yet to see an example of one who is also sensible. It's just not something that makes any sense in the current paradigm.

[Heliomance]

Most stuff in this thread could be viable in the right game, even infinite loops. If infinite loops are a perfectly legitimate part of Magic the Gathering, there's definitely room for them in (insanely high-op) D&D games.

Here's something that no sensible DM would allow: players bringing in characters from other campaigns. Yes, there are DMs who allow this, but I have yet to see an example of one who is also sensible. It's just not something that makes any sense in the current paradigm.

Whyever not? If the character is the appropriate level, and the two campaign worlds are compatible enough that they could conceivably by the same, what's wrong with it?

[Urpriest]

Whyever not? If the character is the appropriate level, and the two campaign worlds are compatible enough that they could conceivably by the same, what's wrong with it?

Even if that's the case, it's still someone essentially deciding that the details of your campaign aren't actually relevant for generating characters. They're telling you that they didn't need to hear from you what the campaign is about, because in their mind every campaign is essentially the same. That can pretty much only fly in an old-school "we just kill things in dungeons and don't pay attention to why" game...and people who can sustain that sort of suspension of disbelief in a setting-rich environment like 3.5 aren't typically the sensible sort.

And in general, that's not the case. All of the examples I've seen talked about on this forum involve players bringing in a character that isn't of the appropriate level, or who benefits from crazy houserules from the previous game, or has powerful items or relationships with powerful NPCs. Almost never does someone have a character from a previous game that actually fits in with the character generation guidelines of the game they're trying to import them to.

[Judge_Worm]

Theurge class stacking.
For instance the following epic pogression:
Wizqrd 5/Cleric 5/Sorcerer 5/Psion 5/Mystic Theurge 10/Cerebremancer 10/Ultimate Magus 10
Yes that's the equivalent of 15 levels of Psion + 24 levels of Sorcerer + 15 levels of Cleric + 24 levels of Wizard casting. Even epic, that's way too much casting power.

On a sidenote: I don't allow normal epic spellcasting, but spell level increases normally, such a character could cast level 12 spells either prepared or spontaneously.

[zergling.exe]

That may well be the case. Racial paragon classes aside (since some don't count them as prestige classes), forsaker can be entered at 1 via human/strongheart halfling and some source of bonus feat (flaws, DCFS, etc) or nonhuman and 2 bonus feats (grey elf DCFS, etc), leading to a character with only prc lvls and a number of unusual quirks, such as defaulting to type for weapon/armor proficiencies.

A class that requires a feat cannot be taken at level 1, as you have no feats until after you have chosen a class. From the PHB


CHOOSE YOUR CLASS AND RACE
Choose your class and race at the same time, because some races are better suited to certain classes.

ASSIGN AND ADJUST ABILITY SCORES

REVIEW THE STARTING PACKAGE

RECORD RACIAL AND CLASS FEATURES
Your character’s race and class provide certain features.

These are the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th steps of character creation, in order. You do not qualify for any class that has any prerequisites until after you have chosen a race and class, as well as after getting to step 6.

[OldTrees1]

Theurge class stacking.
For instance the following epic pogression:
Wizqrd 5/Cleric 5/Sorcerer 5/Psion 5/Mystic Theurge 10/Cerebremancer 10/Ultimate Magus 10
Yes that's the equivalent of 15 levels of Psion + 24 levels of Sorcerer + 15 levels of Cleric + 24 levels of Wizard casting. Even epic, that's way too much casting power.

On a sidenote: I don't allow normal epic spellcasting, but spell level increases normally, such a character could cast level 12 spells either prepared or spontaneously.

Um, that is a 50th level character that barely casts better than someone half their level(although they can do so in 2 classes and 2 more at ~1/4th their level).

15 levels of Cleric(not counting bonus spells)
06/06/06/06/05/05/04/03/02
24 levels of Cleric(not counting bonus spells, following the chart pattern)
06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/05/05/04/04/03
50 levels of Cleric(not counting bonus spells, following the chart pattern)
06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/05/05/04/04/03
2 * Clr 15 + 2 * Clr 24(not counting bonus spells)
24/24/24/24/22/22/20/18/14/10/08/08/06

Personally I think 1 spell of N+13th spell level is stronger than 4 spells of Nth spell level.

Edit: It is ECL 50 rather than ECL 40 as I initially mistook it for

[zergling.exe]

Um, that is a 40th level character that barely casts better than someone half their level(although they can do so in 2 classes and 2 more at ~1/3rd their level).

15 levels of Cleric(not counting bonus spells)
06/06/06/06/05/05/04/03/02
24 levels of Cleric(not counting bonus spells, following the chart pattern)
06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/05/05/04/04/03
40 levels of Cleric(not counting bonus spells, following the chart pattern)
06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/06/05/05/04/04/03
2 * Clr 15 + 2 * Clr 24(not counting bonus spells)
24/24/24/24/22/22/20/18/14/10/08/08/06

Personally I think 1 spell of N+8th spell level is stronger than 4 spells of Nth spell level.

That's actually a 50th level character with casting worse than half their level, and would be unable to function against anything that is supposed to challenge them. They would use almost all of their spells if they want to kill it with damage, it would beat almost any DC they can throw at it, and any decent amount of SR for the level would be an in-conquerable wall. That is without doing more optimization for such things than is healthy.

Edit: A Monk 50 would probably kick them around the block quite easily... and that's saying something with how we view monks around here

[Curmudgeon]

A class that requires a feat cannot be taken at level 1, as you have no feats until after you have chosen a class.
That's the case for your normal 1st level feats. Feats granted by flaws (excepting those with prerequisites) don't have any particular order dependencies beyond "when creating a character".
A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the game master specifically allows it ... Each flaw a player selects entitles his character to a bonus feat. In other words, when you create a character, if you select two flaws, you can also take two bonus feats beyond those your character would be normally entitled to.

[zergling.exe]

That's the case for your normal 1st level feats. Feats granted by flaws (excepting those with prerequisites) don't have any particular order dependencies beyond "when creating a character".

If you can manage to take any feat before you have a class, race, ABILITY SCORES, and/or skills then all power to you, you have probably broken the game before this anyway. I was wrong about needing to get to step 6, but step 4 would tend to be the earliest, unless the feat in question only requires X class, or Y race. Regardless you cannot qualify for anything before having completed at least step 3.

[Talya]

That's the case for your normal 1st level feats. Feats granted by flaws (excepting those with prerequisites) don't have any particular order dependencies beyond "when creating a character".

Could it not be argued that racial bonus feats would also exist before you choose your first level?

[Extra Anchovies]

Could it not be argued that racial bonus feats would also exist before you choose your first level?

They exist when you choose race, so yeah. In the case of the Forsaker, I'd be fine with somebody playing it from level 1.

[zergling.exe]

Could it not be argued that racial bonus feats would also exist before you choose your first level?


RECORD RACIAL AND CLASS FEATURES
Your character’s race and class provide certain features.

This is step 6, which comes after choosing class and race which is step 3.


They exist when you choose race, so yeah. In the case of the Forsaker, I'd be fine with somebody playing it from level 1.

Except that they don't. You get your racial ability modifiers in step 4, after you choose a class (in step 3, which is also where you chose your race at the same time as your class); and your racial features in step 6.

For the rules of D&D, a PC has their ability scores rolled but not assigned first. Then they choose their race and class, without getting any features of these choices yet. Then they get racial ability score modifiers. Then they can look at the starting package to skip the rest of the steps. After they choose to not take the starting package, they get class and race features. Then skill points, followed by feats. After this they get their equipment, and only at the end are combat numbers recorded. This is the RAW progression for creating a level 1 D&D 3.5 character.

[Talya]

I'm not aware of any base classes that have a feat requirement, anyway. Short of shenanigans, there's no way to qualify for a PrC prior to level2. (generally, level 6, though some early entry PrCs exist.)

[zergling.exe]

I'm not aware of any base classes that have a feat requirement, anyway.

Then you were not paying attention to what started the debate, being a prestige class, which have prerequisites in the form of feats and skills points usually, without having a levels in a base class. There is no problem with taking your first level as a base class, only in taking it in a prestige class you don't meet the prereqs for before you choose it.

[nedz]

A class that requires a feat cannot be taken at level 1, as you have no feats until after you have chosen a class. From the PHB.

My Janni Horizon Walker would like a word with you — OK 6 RHD, but still can enter a PrC without going via a base class.

[Curmudgeon]

If you can manage to take any feat before you have a class, race, ABILITY SCORES, and/or skills then all power to you, you have probably broken the game before this anyway.
There are plenty of feats you can choose before you have anything except the DM's approval. Take the Murky-Eyed flaw and Improved Initiative feat, for example; neither of those have any prerequisites.

[EisenKreutzer]

My group has always operated under a rules interpretation (bordering on a house rule, I guess) that you can enter a Prestige CLass with a Feat requirement if gaining a level in the PrC would grant you a Feat by level advancement, and you take the prerequisite Feat. So in essence you get the prereq Feat as you take your first lvl in the PrC.

[Extra Anchovies]

There are plenty of feats you can choose before you have anything except the DM's approval. Take the Murky-Eyed flaw and Improved Initiative feat, for example; neither of those have any prerequisites.

Hm. Since the save-boosting feats don't have prerequisites, if you were allowed three flaws you would be able to enter Forsaker at level 1, when applying the flaw/feat rules from this perspective.

[Venger]

Hm. Since the save-boosting feats don't have prerequisites, if you were allowed three flaws you would be able to enter Forsaker at level 1, when applying the flaw/feat rules from this perspective.

Yes. That's why I said that since, as Curmudgeon explained, that's how racial bonus and flaw feats work and due to forsaker requiring only the +2 saves feats, you could enter at 1 if you really wanted to.

[zergling.exe]

Yes. That's why I said that since, as Curmudgeon explained, that's how racial bonus and flaw feats work and due to forsaker requiring only the +2 saves feats, you could enter at 1 if you really wanted to.

I'll concede on flaws to takes feats that have no prerequisites, since I don't know the game as well as I thought I did. But racial bonus feats aren't granted to you until step 6 in the character creation process, as I have pointed out twice. Racial bonus feats would not allow you to qualify for Forsaker.

[Invader]

Cant believe we're this far down the page no one has said monk or Tome of Battle yet... :smallamused:

[Venger]

Cant believe we're this far down the page no one has said monk or Tome of Battle yet... :smallamused:

That goes without saying. Monk is too OP. If you invest enough cross-class ranks, they can even use partially charged wands. Think of the poor wizards. They can't do anything that awesome.

[heavyfuel]

Since the new thread reminded me, Irresistible Spell.

[ArqArturo]

Cant believe we're this far down the page no one has said monk or Tome of Battle yet... :smallamused:

Snark aside, I had two DMs ban ToB, and the reasons were:

DM1: It reeks of anime bull****. Warriors should only hit, and hit harder.

DM2: I've got over a dozen books, I am not reading another rulebook. Now, fetch me my copy of Book of Erotic Fantasy (he did have that book, but never implemented it).

So yeah, I never had the pleasure of using a Warblade, ever :smallfrown:.

[heavyfuel]

Snark aside, I had two DMs ban ToB, and the reasons were:

DM1: It reeks of anime bull****. Warriors should only hit, and hit harder.

DM2: I've got over a dozen books, I am not reading another rulebook. Now, fetch me my copy of Book of Erotic Fantasy (he did have that book, but never implemented it).

So yeah, I never had the pleasure of using a Warblade, ever :smallfrown:.

Yup. Same thing here...

One DM said it's too anime and the other said it was OP (somehow, my god Wizard that makes his encounters as easy as eating a kit-kat, and the Barb/Fighter ubercharger I help a friend build aren't though... So go figure)

I did however had the pleasure of playing a Warblade, but it was an e6 campaign and I was DMing, so most of the fun stuff was left out.

[Heliomance]

Things no sensible DM would allow? Thread necromancy.

[aleucard]

Things no sensible DM would allow? Thread necromancy.

It's less than a month, it's still within guidelines.

[heavyfuel]

Things no sensible DM would allow? Thread necromancy.

Don't I get 45 days? Yup. Yes I do. I just checked (I had also checked before posting)

[Tvtyrant]

There is no given definition of a sensible DM in my opinion. Tippyverse is not the result of insensibility or irrationality, nor is E6 core only. Different DMs and groups have different expectations of how the game is played.

[Auron3991]

raw Diplomacy.

Depending on the optimization level, telekinesis and arcane thesis, just too many ways to get stupid levels of damage off from them. At lv 10 60d6 would be child's play for telekinesis and 25D4 divided amongst 5 targets (no save or to hit roll) with additional debilitating effects is pretty standard for magic missile moded by arcane thesis.

[Curmudgeon]

Depending on the optimization level, telekinesis and arcane thesis, just too many ways to get stupid levels of damage off from them. At lv 10 60d6 would be child's play for telekinesis and 25D4 divided amongst 5 targets (no save or to hit roll) with additional debilitating effects is pretty standard for magic missile moded by arcane thesis.
Where are you getting that from?
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Arcane Thesis just boosts the CL of the spell. Telekinesis lets you use Violent Thrust to hurl weapons, but does not give you proficiency with these weapons, make melee weapons other than improvised for throwing, or change weapon range increments. If you're trying to hurl something that's not a ranged weapon your damage is pretty low, based on the weight hurled.

[Svata]

I assume you mean rounds not in the "round/level" or "x rounds" sense, but as in something you can count in rounds like "1min/lv" actually being "10rounds/lv". Otherwise you have effects in which IHS should totally work on (eg. Ray of Enfeeblement) and that won't


That really depends on how picky you are about the rules of grammar. The Iron Heart Surge maneuver will immediately end "one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." Just as the rules of English say "fewer" refers to integers and "less" only to noncountable quantities, this specification is grammatically distinct from "1 round or longer". The Surge should only be effective against impediments with a stated duration of some number of rounds; durations expressed in minutes or other units of time would be unaffected. So you can Surge out of a tanglefoot bag, which stays sticky for 2d4 rounds, but not out of a lava flow, which doesn't have a duration. You also can't cancel some impediment with a duration not expressed in rounds, such as poison (ability damage lasting 1 day per point).

The D&D rules really do make this distinction between the units used for various effects.
Metabreath Feats, Draconomicon page 66:

Breath weapon says "once every 10 rounds"? Eligible. Breath weapon that says "once every minute"? Not eligible. Are they the same amount of time? Absolutely! And thus the picky attention to grammar actually makes sense with Iron Heart Surge.


Guys, let's please not have this argument again?

[Auron3991]

Where are you getting that from? Arcane Thesis just boosts the CL of the spell. Telekinesis lets you use Violent Thrust to hurl weapons, but does not give you proficiency with these weapons, make melee weapons other than improvised for throwing, or change weapon range increments. If you're trying to hurl something that's not a ranged weapon your damage is pretty low, based on the weight hurled.

Telekinesis combined with ten slips of paper marked with explosive runes and intentionally failing a dispel magic check results in 60D6 damage depending on if runes trigger other runes (been a long time). A more surefire ridiculous damage shot is to use iron sections under a shrink item spell and expanding them as they're hurled. As far as arcane thesis, that was assuming metamagic involved (remember, it subtracts one lv from the spell per metamagic feat added). Admittedly, it involved two casts, but it's cast in one round (twinned, repeating, energy sub, metamagic feat that allows you to sub half a spells energy for another (forget what it is at the moment), +1lv metamagic of appropriate element. Drop twinned for quickened and repeat as swift action.). Both end up being spell lv 4 [1+(4-1)+(3-1)+(0-1)+(0-1)+(1-1)]. It only gets worse from there.

[Petrocorus]

Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, and Planar Shepherd (I'm guessing people will be arguing with me about these)
I would certainly add Tainted Scholar, and many DM add Io7FV.



I prefer Rich's fix.
Do you have some link.


That may well be the case. Racial paragon classes aside (since some don't count them as prestige classes), forsaker can be entered at 1 via human/strongheart halfling and some source of bonus feat (flaws, DCFS, etc) or nonhuman and 2 bonus feats (grey elf DCFS, etc), leading to a character with only prc lvls and a number of unusual quirks, such as defaulting to type for weapon/armor proficiencies.
If we don't count RHD as 1st level, then many monster are perfectly eligible to PrC at first class level.

[Curmudgeon]

Telekinesis combined with ten slips of paper marked with explosive runes and intentionally failing a dispel magic check results in 60D6 damage depending on if runes trigger other runes (been a long time).
The highlighted part isn't allowed by the game rules.

A more surefire ridiculous damage shot is to use iron sections under a shrink item spell and expanding them as they're hurled.
Every command word is a standard action to say by default, so with the standard action required to cast Telekinesis you rarely have the option to activate anything later in the same turn; you certainly don't have the option to take a standard action in the middle of casting a spell.

[Auron3991]

The highlighted part isn't allowed by the game rules.

Every command word is a standard action to say by default, so with the standard action required to cast Telekinesis you rarely have the option to activate anything later in the same turn; you certainly don't have the option to take a standard action in the middle of casting a spell.

Okay, I was wrong on the specifics, but you can still stuff the runes on one sheet of paper, turn the runes your way and attempt to read them (last I checked, reading wasn't listed as an action) and the shrunk iron can be thrown and then resize using quickened dispel, which allows you to auto dispel any of your spells, and boom, ten sections of 20 cubic foot of iron being hurled at the enemy (may raise the lv of the build to 13, but that only gives opportunity to hurl more iron).

[Curmudgeon]

Okay, I was wrong on the specifics, but you can still stuff the runes on one sheet of paper, turn the runes your way and attempt to read them (last I checked, reading wasn't listed as an action)
The specifics are what matter. You have to be next to the Runes to be close enough to read them.
Anyone next to the runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage. The object on which the runes were written also takes full damage (no saving throw).

and the shrunk iron can be thrown and then resize using quickened dispel, which allows you to auto dispel any of your spells, and boom, ten sections of 20 cubic foot of iron being hurled at the enemy (may raise the lv of the build to 13, but that only gives opportunity to hurl more iron).
You're assuming you can roll to hit, pause to use Dispel Magic with Quicken Spell, then deal damage? Sorry, but the game doesn't work that way absent special rules exceptions.
Damage
When your attack succeeds, you deal damage. From page 142 of Player's Handbook:
SPEEDING UP COMBAT
You can use a few tricks to make combat run faster.
Attack and Damage: Roll your attack die and damage die (or dice) at the same time. If you miss, you can ignore the damage, but if you hit, your friends don’t have to wait for you to make a second roll for damage. Unless you've got a special ability (like a Luck feat) which allows it, there is no separation between attack and damage. So you either throw the small bits of iron for negligible damage, or you fail to throw massive chunks of iron.

[Auron3991]

The specifics are what matter. You have to be next to the Runes to be close enough to read them.

You're assuming you can roll to hit, pause to use Dispel Magic with Quicken Spell, then deal damage? Sorry, but the game doesn't work that way absent special rules exceptions. From page 142 of Player's Handbook: Unless you've got a special ability (like a Luck feat) which allows it, there is no separation between attack and damage. So you either throw the small bits of iron for negligible damage, or you fail to throw massive chunks of iron.

Depends on the DM I guess, the ones I talk to tend to use the attitude of instant actions can occur within the timeframe the objects take to travel (much like people using quickened dimension door to dodge attacks). Meaning one can still miss after burning the quickened dispel.

Also, could you point to the source for requiring someone to be right next to the object to read it? Because that requirement isn't in the phb spell description.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, could you point to the source for requiring someone to be right next to the object to read it? Because that requirement isn't in the phb spell description.
It's in the bolded part of the spell citation above, and in the first full sentence of the the last column of Player's Handbook on page 228.

[Auron3991]

It's in the bolded part of the spell citation above, and in the first full sentence of the the last column of Player's Handbook on page 228.

Sorry, missed the parenthesized text in the phb because I was too focused on the previous sentence describing trigger condition. I apologize if it came off antagonistic, but I prefer to go directly to a book when possible.

Ah well, can hurl tied together alchemist fires instead, just need thrown weapon proficiency (slightly less cheesy, but still nuts considering that each fire is only 1lb).

[Troacctid]

I don't see how that sort of effect is out of line for a spell of Telekinesis's level.

[Auron3991]

I don't see how that sort of effect is out of line for a spell of Telekinesis's level.

As I said before, depends on the optimization level, but if one were to tie, say 20 alchemist fires together so that they counted as one object, one could hurl ten of these at level ten. Each alchemist fire deals 1D6 damage. 20 per bundle times 10 bundles results in 200D6 fire damage. That averages to well over the hp of most creatures anywhere near CR 10, and even failures to hit can result in splash damage.

[Tvtyrant]

As I said before, depends on the optimization level, but if one were to tie, say 20 alchemist fires together so that they counted as one object, one could hurl ten of these at level ten. Each alchemist fire deals 1D6 damage. 20 per bundle times 10 bundles results in 200D6 fire damage. That averages to well over the hp of most creatures anywhere near CR 10, and even failures to hit can result in splash damage.

Doesn't work like you think it does. They become improvised weapons and lose their touch attack effect, you could do the same thing by having a giant bag of alchemist's fire be thrown by the barbarian. The Telekinesis isn't the important thing in that scenario, the bag of alchemy is.

[Auron3991]

Doesn't work like you think it does. They become improvised weapons and lose their touch attack effect, you could do the same thing by having a giant bag of alchemist's fire be thrown by the barbarian. The Telekinesis isn't the important thing in that scenario, the bag of alchemy is.

Really? That seems odd considering that the splash effect is a product of the vials breaking and they're being thrust with a fair amount of force. By that logic, a crate of alchemist fires could be hurled into the ground by said barbarian with no ill effects. That seems a bit hard on the suspension of disbelief.

[Tvtyrant]

Really? That seems odd considering that the splash effect is a product of the vials breaking and they're being thrust with a fair amount of force. By that logic, a crate of alchemist fires could be hurled into the ground by said barbarian with no ill effects. That seems a bit hard on the suspension of disbelief.

Splash damage is fine. 20 bags do 20 fire damage. But you are not longer throwing alchemist's fire flasks and so you don't get a touch attack or get to do direct damage. So you can do decent splash damage with your telekinesis, but no more so than a mundane character throwing a barrel of the stuff.

[Auron3991]

Okay, maybe telekinesis isn't as broken as I first thought, but something still feels off to me about it.


However, I stand by the fact that raw diplomacy and arcane thesis are insane.

[Barbarian Horde]

Fighter6 Dungeon crasher variant combined with War hulk 10 combined with Hulking Hurler. With this combination. You gain the ability to throw the planet or pretty much any other planet.
Also Half Minotaur Template from dragon magazine. It a +1 template that advances a character as a monster from medium to large size on top of the given bonus it has built into template. LA 1 giving a grand total of 12str and like 6 con.

For any reason you combined both of these things. You now have a creature with 52 total str by level16 if it was desired. That +21 +10(Dugeon crasher to break stuff) so if you wanted to break out of a cage or anything you now could roll a max str check of 51... Your grapple is insane... You weight limit is just ... .stupid... No really just have your wizard give you a bottle of air and greater teleport you to the moon so you can throw it at the planet.

[torrasque666]

Fighter6 Dungeon crasher variant combined with War hulk 10 combined with Hulking Hurler. With this combination. You gain the ability to throw the planet or pretty much any other planet.
Also Half Minotaur Template from dragon magazine. It a +1 template that advances a character as a monster from medium to large size on top of the given bonus it has built into template. LA 1 giving a grand total of 12str and like 6 con.

Even worse: Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre(DragMag one) Halfling. Can you say +24 Strength?

[Barbarian Horde]

Yeah combine with a few levels of bear warrior for more str bonus..
Any bear warrior can assume the form of a black bear. While in black bear form, he gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a +4 bonus to Constitution.
At 10th level, a bear warrior can choose between black, brown, and dire bear forms. While in dire bear form, he gains a +20 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a +8 bonus to Constitution.

[atemu1234]

Yeah combine with a few levels of bear warrior for more str bonus..
Any bear warrior can assume the form of a black bear. While in black bear form, he gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a +4 bonus to Constitution.
At 10th level, a bear warrior can choose between black, brown, and dire bear forms. While in dire bear form, he gains a +20 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Dexterity, and a +8 bonus to Constitution.

Being the DM has its perks.

Namely, throwing a Water Orc Dire Werebear Ranger 2 Animal Lord (Bear Lord) 10 at a sixteenth level party.

[Graypairofsocks]

Invisible Spell as written (with some nerfs, it could be fine)

Honestly Invisible spell isn't that bad, it has some hilarious applications and some cases where you will wonder what it will even do(Invisible invisibilility, Invisible Glitterdust, etc...).

[Extra Anchovies]

Honestly Invisible spell isn't that bad, it has some hilarious applications and some cases where you will wonder what it will even do(Invisible invisibilility, Invisible Glitterdust, etc...).

Invisible Summon Monster. So yes, it is that bad.

[atemu1234]

Invisible Summon Monster. So yes, it is that bad.

I'd probably allow that, but stat it as normal invisibility. They attack, they lose it.

[heavyfuel]

Pugilist Fighter and Immunity to non-lethal damage.

@Invisible spell: Invisible Wall of Stone gets you a permanent, non-magical, invisible wall! Completely bonkers

What about Invisible Alter Self? Would you simply become invisible? Or would just the changes to your apperance be invisible? In either case, you still get a freaking Disguise bonus!

[Graypairofsocks]

The invisible spell Wall of stone reminds me of something:
Emulating Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm) with Greater Shadow Conjuration or Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm).

What happens?
Do you get a semi-real non magical wall made out of iron, that is what seems to happen by RAW.

[Auron3991]

The invisible spell Wall of stone reminds me of something:
Emulating Wall of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIron.htm) with Greater Shadow Conjuration or Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm).

What happens?
Do you get a semi-real non magical wall made out of iron, that is what seems to happen by RAW.

Well, going by descriptions on the shadow illusions, they use material from the shadow plane to create a partially legitimate creation, so you would get a wall that's the proper percentage of iron from the shadow plane and the rest is using shadows to create the illusion. The actual iron would be non-magical while the non-real parts are still illusions, they just have the illusion of being non-magical.

[Necroticplague]

What about Invisible Alter Self? Would you simply become invisible? Or would just the changes to your apperance be invisible? In either case, you still get a freaking Disguise bonus!

I'm pretty sure the latter would be true. The spell has no visual manifestation, which I interpret to mean it looks like nothing happened. Nothing foolproof, but it answers these kinds of questions easily enough.

[Meth In a Mine]

No sensible DM would let me touch the Wizard class. Luckily for me my DM is most certainly not sensible.:smallbiggrin:
Cheers,
-MiaM

[KingSmitty]

No sensible dm should ever allow the half-minotaur template with a half-giant. Large size AND powerful build and psychic ability all for a +2 LA

[atemu1234]

No sensible dm should ever allow the half-minotaur template with a half-giant. Large size AND powerful build and psychic ability all for a +2 LA

Meh, I'd probably allow it. I like half-minotaur, and quite frankly I don't find half-giants all that powerful. LA +1 for the half-giant is right, but barely. Adding the Half-Minotaur would be a powerful LA +2, but by no means is too powerful, especially compared to a caster.

[Heliomance]

No sensible dm should ever allow the half-minotaur template with a half-giant. Large size AND powerful build and psychic ability all for a +2 LA

Does adding Stoneblessed to get into the Goliath Barbarian RSL let you become Huge when you rage?

EDIT: On checking the text, no, it doesn't, because Mountain Rage explicitly specifies Large. This does, however, mean you can take a Fine sized race through Stoneblessed, pick up Goliath Barbarian 1, and grow to Large when you rage. This amuses me greatly and I wish to use it in a game.

[heavyfuel]

Meh, I'd probably allow it. I like half-minotaur, and quite frankly I don't find half-giants all that powerful. LA +1 for the half-giant is right, but barely. Adding the Half-Minotaur would be a powerful LA +2, but by no means is too powerful, especially compared to a caster.

While I agree that it's not that powerful, I wouldn't allow simply because it's templating stacking. Once you allow template stacking, you open the window for insane template stacking.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Even if that's the case, it's still someone essentially deciding that the details of your campaign aren't actually relevant for generating characters. They're telling you that they didn't need to hear from you what the campaign is about, because in their mind every campaign is essentially the same.

I agree with you're general sentiment, but I often get the impression that this is what the majority of players do. I'll spot an interesting PbP and within a few hours of it going up several people will have submitted multipage backstories.

[torrasque666]

Does adding Stoneblessed to get into the Goliath Barbarian RSL let you become Huge when you rage?

EDIT: On checking the text, no, it doesn't, because Mountain Rage explicitly specifies Large. This does, however, mean you can take a Fine sized race through Stoneblessed, pick up Goliath Barbarian 1, and grow to Large when you rage. This amuses me greatly and I wish to use it in a game.

I still contend that Stoneblessed doesn't qualify you for RSL as they aren't an effect. They may grant effects, but they themselves are not.

[Extra Anchovies]

I still contend that Stoneblessed doesn't qualify you for RSL as they aren't an effect. They may grant effects, but they themselves are not.

Indeed. The sort of "effect" that Stoneblessed is meant for, IMO, is things like "this spell only kills dwarves" or "this magic trap only triggers when a non-goliath enters the area".

[torrasque666]

Indeed. The sort of "effect" that Stoneblessed is meant for, IMO, is things like "this spell only kills dwarves" or "this magic trap only triggers when a non-goliath enters the area".
kinda further reinforced by the next line mentioning that they also qualify for feats and PrCs limited to the race.