can you deny both dex and armour bonus to ac

[Smegskull]

My character is pretty much always invisible so he catches enemies flat footed from total concealment all the time. I have been looking for good PrCs and found some interesting abilities that allow you to resolve your next melee attack as a touch attack. Can touch attacks stack with flat footed to go against AC of just 10?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yup. Give or take a point or two for size.

[Fax Celestis]

Flat-footed touch attacks ignore Dex, dodge, armor, and shield bonuses. While that's a lot of what makes up AC, it won't ignore deflection, luck, insight, or sacred/profane bonuses to AC.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Flat-footed touch attacks ignore Dex, dodge, armor, and shield bonuses. While that's a lot of what makes up AC, it won't ignore deflection, luck, insight, or sacred/profane bonuses to AC.

This. Also, flatfooted touch can be lower than 10. Dex *penalties* still apply (otherwise anyone w/ a dex penalty would be better off flatfooted), size penalties can eat into it, and possibly some other situational penalties.

[sideswipe]

if they have 6 hd then Emerald Razor maneuver makes it a touch attack.

[KingAtomsk]

A wand of wraithstrike could let you reliably make touch attacks, while your invisibility covers the flat-footed half. Alternatively, once you can afford one, a Brilliant Energy weapon will ignore armor and shield bonuses.

For other bonuses like Deflection, Sacred/Profane, etc., maintain good communication with anyone in your party that can cast dispel magic or its big brother versions. Most (but not all) sources that grant those types of bonus are supernatural or magical in origin and can be dispelled.

[Jowgen]

Flat-footed touch attacks ignore Dex, dodge, armor, and shield bonuses. While that's a lot of what makes up AC, it won't ignore deflection, luck, insight, or sacred/profane bonuses to AC.

From what I've seen, Dex and Natural armor are the two main sources of AC for corporeal enemies, with all other bonus types either being limited or never really exceeding a certain soft threshold. This is somewhat beyond the scope of this thread, but it might be worthwhile to see how high an enemy's Flat-footed touch AC can really go.

From the top of my head, I know that size bonus maxes out at +8, it is rather hard to beat the +6 deflection bonus of Greater Mage Armor, and I don't know anything that can beat the +5 Insight bonus a Defending weapon can give. Don't know any common sources of Profane, Sacred or Luck AC bonuses.

[KillianHawkeye]

it is rather hard to beat the +6 deflection bonus of Greater Mage Armor

Greater Mage Armor, like the normal Mage Armor spell it is based on, grants an armor bonus, not a deflection bonus. Perhaps you're thinking of something else?

[Psyren]

Greater Mage Armor, like the normal Mage Armor spell it is based on, grants an armor bonus, not a deflection bonus. Perhaps you're thinking of something else?

It does however apply to incorporeal touch attacks as it is a force effect, though it's more likely that he simply made a mistake on the AC type.

[Fouredged Sword]

It does not apply to normal touch attacks though. Odd? Yes.

[Crake]

It does not apply to normal touch attacks though. Odd? Yes.

The way I always rationalised it was that incorporeal touch attacks need to actually go through you, like a weapon might, not simply make contact with you, like a touch attack might. The only reason that they're called "touch" attacks is because they resolve against touch AC (plus force effects, since that stops them from passing their hand through you)

[Necroticplague]

Another thing that would still apply against flat-footed touch:monk AC bonus. Or any of its derivatives (fist of the forest, battledancer).

[Jowgen]

Ah, my mistake. I was thinking of a) incorporeals and b) Riverine (Stormwrack), which somehow had me thinking it was deflection despite my being very aware of it not stacking with regular armor. :smallredface: A +5 ring of deflection is the apparent maximum then AFAIK.

Monk AC bonus is another factor indeed, but then again there are plenty of classes, prestige classes, templates etc. that grant one stat or another to AC, under certain circumstances; each with a specific rule as to what types of AC it applies to. Yet again though, the Monk wisdom bonus can be picked up with a Monk's belt, so I suppose it should indeed be considered.

So we're at +8 Size +5 Insight + 5 Deflection + X Wisdom (28 + Wis) for potential max-to-expect Flat-footed touch AC.

[Fax Celestis]

Ah, my mistake. I was thinking of a) incorporeals and b) Riverine (Stormwrack), which somehow had me thinking it was deflection despite my being very aware of it not stacking with regular armor. :smallredface: A +5 ring of deflection is the apparent maximum then AFAIK.

Monk AC bonus is another factor indeed, but then again there are plenty of classes, prestige classes, templates etc. that grant one stat or another to AC, under certain circumstances; each with a specific rule as to what types of AC it applies to. Yet again though, the Monk wisdom bonus can be picked up with a Monk's belt, so I suppose it should indeed be considered.

So we're at +8 Size +5 Insight + 5 Deflection + X Wisdom (28 + Wis) for potential max-to-expect Flat-footed touch AC.

Take the Shield Ward feat for another +8 (assuming a heavy shield +5).

[ranagrande]

You can get much higher deflection bonuses. The spell Sirine's Grace adds your charisma modifier as a deflection bonus and Scintillating Scales changes your natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus.

Some other good spells are Recitation for a +3 luck bonus, Glorious Raiment for a +2 sacred bonus, and Holy Star for a +6 circumstance bonus.

An Abjurant Champion can use Arcane Boost to get up to a +9 insight bonus.

A 20th level character with Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty has a +12 exalted bonus.

[Psyren]

- Glorious Raiment gives +4 sacred bonus to AC.
- Saint template gives you insight to AC = Wis, so that would stack with the Monk AC bonus and potentially beat the defending weapon as well.

[Jowgen]

So the moral is, denying dex and armour bonus is pointless if the enemy is wearing 20 layers of AC buffing spells :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

So the moral is, denying dex and armour bonus is pointless if the enemy is wearing 20 layers of AC buffing spells :smalltongue:

AKA: "The only way to make AC into a viable defense".

[Necroticplague]

So the moral is, denying dex and armour bonus is pointless if the enemy is wearing 20 layers of AC buffing spells :smalltongue:

Or abusing various stat to ac and items that improve AC. One of my favorite defensive builds is a ghost battle dancer ascetic mage. That's cha to ac 3 times (twice as the monk class feature, once as a deflection bonus). Then, slap on defending weapons. That should get you through the non-epic game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So the moral is, denying dex and armour bonus is pointless if the enemy is wearing 20 layers of AC buffing spells :smalltongue:

If the enemy is capable of doing that, you're only in melee range because he let you get that close, probably to mock you for not being a caster.

[Fax Celestis]

"He closes to within 5 feet? Cool. My contingent magic mouth activates and mocks his poor life choices, his patronage, and insinuates that his mother and I did the deed last night."

[Psyren]

"He closes to within 5 feet? Cool. My contingent magic mouth activates and mocks his poor life choices, his patronage, and insinuates that his mother and I did the deed last night."

Generic comment questioning your parentage.

[georgie_leech]

Generic comment questioning your parentage.

Mumbled statement disparaging your masculinity.

[AnonymousPepper]

Yeah, casters can do it at level 5. Hold Person + Lesser Orb of X (or any other touch spell). Hold Person renders the target helpless, so there goes dex (in fact, dex goes to zero, so their dex bonus to AC is -5), insight, competence, and dodge, and Lesser Orb of X ignores armor and natural armor. Alignment (e.g. Sacred/Profane) and deflection still work.