Totemist Meld Questions

[Kesnit]

I posted these in the RAW thread, but didn't get an answer. So I am posting a specific thread

I was putting together a table of all Totemist binds to use in a game. Now that I've looked closely at them, I have some questions.

1) Binding the Lammasu Mantle to the Shoulder Chakra says "no summoned evil creature can approach within 10 feet of you (as the magic circle against evil spell)." The spell is subject to a summon creature's spell resist. I assume Lammasu Mantle is too? If so, I'd use my melder level in place of CL, right?

2) Say I had Threefold Mask of Chimera bound to the Crown Chakra and Sphinx Claws bound to Hand Chakra. I use the Mask ability to take an extra move action. My next turn, I use my move action to charge. Do I still get the full attack from Sphinx claws?

3) When shaping Winter Mask, does the melee attack that causes fatigue require a special attack, or does it combine with any attack I make? If it combines, does each attack trigger the FORT save? (i.e. a full attack is claw, claw, bite. If I hit with all three, does the target have to make 3 FORT saves?)

[torrasque666]

I posted these in the RAW thread, but didn't get an answer. So I am posting a specific thread

I was putting together a table of all Totemist binds to use in a game. Now that I've looked closely at them, I have some questions.

1) Binding the Lammasu Mantle to the Shoulder Chakra says "no summoned evil creature can approach within 10 feet of you (as the magic circle against evil spell)." The spell is subject to a summon creature's spell resist. I assume Lammasu Mantle is too? If so, I'd use my melder level in place of CL, right?

2) Say I had Threefold Mask of Chimera bound to the Crown Chakra and Sphinx Claws bound to Hand Chakra. I use the Mask ability to take an extra move action. My next turn, I use my move action to charge. Do I still get the full attack from Sphinx claws?

3) When shaping Winter Mask, does the melee attack that causes fatigue require a special attack, or does it combine with any attack I make? If it combines, does each attack trigger the FORT save? (i.e. a full attack is claw, claw, bite. If I hit with all three, does the target have to make 3 FORT saves?)

1) "a soulmeld also has a meldshaper level, which functions effectively like a spell’s caster level." Yes. You'd use your MdL in place of your CL. Since the Mantle says "as the magic circle against evil spell", it has all the limitations and effects of the spell.

2) Remember that a Charge is a full-round action. So you couldn't "use [your] move action to charge" since you don't have the required action to do so. And if you're going to try to reference the clause about getting a partial charge, remember that's only when limited to only a move or standard. You instead get 2 moves and a standard.

3) You make a touch attack, which is different from a normal attack. Its made using all your melee base modifiers(so no enhancement bonuses from weapons) and only deals the listed effect. It deals no damage unless stated to. It cannot be combined with a full attack AFIK.

[Kesnit]

2) Remember that a Charge is a full-round action. So you couldn't "use [your] move action to charge" since you don't have the required action to do so. And if you're going to try to reference the clause about getting a partial charge, remember that's only when limited to only a move or standard. You instead get 2 moves and a standard.

That isn't what I asked.

Round 1: Make a move and standard, then use Threefold Mask of the Chimera to take another move action.
Round 2: Per the description of Mask, "on your next turn, you can only take a single standard action or a move action, but not both, and not a full-round action)." That fits the criteria for a partial charge, so I take that one action to do a partial charge.

Sphinx Claws say "when you use the charge action, at the end of your charge, you can make a full attack..."

I'm asking about Round 2. Do I get the full attack (from Sphinx Claws) because I did charge, even though Mask says I only get a move or a standard?


3) You make a touch attack, which is different from a normal attack. Its made using all your melee base modifiers(so no enhancement bonuses from weapons) and only deals the listed effect. It deals no damage unless stated to. It cannot be combined with a full attack AFIK.

Do you have a cite for that? I'm using natural weapons (I have claws), not a weapon. Why wouldn't it be "here's my attack against their full AC, and since that also hits the enemy's touch, it triggers Winter Mask"? Or "crap, I missed their AC, but hit their touch, so no claw damage, but Winter Mask triggers"?

[Red Fel]

I'm asking about Round 2. Do I get the full attack (from Sphinx Claws) because I did charge, even though Mask says I only get a move or a standard?

Quoth the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge):
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.(Emphasis added).

If you cannot take a full round action, you cannot make a charge, full stop. Mask precludes you from making a full round action, ergo you cannot make a charge.

[Venger]

Quoth the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge):(Emphasis added).

If you cannot take a full round action, you cannot make a charge, full stop. Mask precludes you from making a full round action, ergo you cannot make a charge.

actually, no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge)



If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

when you're restricted to partial actions only, such as through slow, ray of dizziness, or the threefold mask of the chimera, you can charge with the caveat that you can only move up to your movement speed, not 2x movement as normal

1) yes, that's correct

3) winter mask deals the normal damage depending on your essentia (ed4 nonlethal cold) but that is a separate attack from your claws or any other natural weapons you may have. it's not the same as touch spells, such as chill touch, which can be delivered by a natural weapon or an unarmed strike. your melee touch attack with the winter mask would only do that nonlethal cold and threaten fatigue on a failed save.

[Red Fel]

actually, no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge)



when you're restricted to partial actions only, such as through slow, ray of dizziness, or the threefold mask of the chimera, you can charge with the caveat that you can only move up to your movement speed, not 2x movement as normal

Huh.

Yeah, I completely forgot that caveat. By that logic, yes, you can charge (regular movement, not double movement) while under the after-effects of the Mask. And since that is still technically a charge, just a modified charge, you get the benefit of Pounce from the Claws.

That's actually pretty devious. It basically lets you take a full attack despite not being otherwise able to take a full attack. This assumes, of course, that all the other requirements for a charge (straight line, clear path, line of sight) are met.

[Venger]

Huh.

Yeah, I completely forgot that caveat. By that logic, yes, you can charge (regular movement, not double movement) while under the after-effects of the Mask. And since that is still technically a charge, just a modified charge, you get the benefit of Pounce from the Claws.

That's actually pretty devious. It basically lets you take a full attack despite not being otherwise able to take a full attack. This assumes, of course, that all the other requirements for a charge (straight line, clear path, line of sight) are met.

Yeah, no problem. It's easy to miss. It's one of those rules no one ever checks because you think you already know how it works.

It's not that devious, because Totemists never unlock their soul chakra, so can't use this bind effect (the only one of their melds where this is the situation.)

The only way to get the effect besides going epic (since open chakra (soul) is an epic feat) is to either take shape soulmeld as an incarnate, or take a 1 lvl dip of totemist as an incarnate, so either way, I don't think OP is going to be able to actually do it.

[Troacctid]

The only way to get the effect besides going epic (since open chakra (soul) is an epic feat) is to either take shape soulmeld as an incarnate, or take a 1 lvl dip of totemist as an incarnate, so either way, I don't think OP is going to be able to actually do it.

You could also prestige into Necrocarnate.

[Kesnit]

It's not that devious, because Totemists never unlock their soul chakra, so can't use this bind effect (the only one of their melds where this is the situation.)

Er, no... Getting an extra move from Threefold Mask effect comes from binding to the Crown (Totemist 5) and Sphinx Claws from binding to the Hands (also Totemist 5).

Binding Threefold Mask to the Soul gives an extra standard action, but that isn't what I was asking about.

[Venger]

Er, no... Getting an extra move from Threefold Mask effect comes from binding to the Crown (Totemist 5) and Sphinx Claws from binding to the Hands (also Totemist 5).

Binding Threefold Mask to the Soul gives an extra standard action, but that isn't what I was asking about.

Sure, since partial charge is allowed when you're limited to a move or a standard, that would work also.

[Khedrac]

You also run into the main problem with "Specific v. General" rules here - which is the specific?

I personally think that without any of the text that states specifically that you can make multiple attacks as a standard action the General rule requiring a full round action to make multiple attacks still applies and while you can (partial) charge, you cannot pounce. There are abilities that override this rule, and they all explicitly state so. Given the absence of such a statement in pounce, you cannot use it in this circumstance.

This is one of the times when 3.0's rules were actually clearer, by calling the "limited actions charge" a "partial charge" they made it a different action and thus clearly not covered by pounce.

[Venger]

You also run into the main problem with "Specific v. General" rules here - which is the specific?

No he doesn't. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Could you explain?


I personally think that without any of the text that states specifically that you can make multiple attacks as a standard action the General rule requiring a full round action to make multiple attacks still applies and while you can (partial) charge, you cannot pounce. There are abilities that override this rule, and they all explicitly state so. Given the absence of such a statement in pounce, you cannot use it in this circumstance.[quote]
That is not a rule. Hydras, for example, can make multiple attacks as a standard action with no special rules given.

pounce's actual text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) says that you make a full attack at the end of a charge.

if you are restricted to partial actions (e.g. a lion is slowed as by the slow spell) then you are still entitled to a pounce (at 1x your normal speed instead of 2x) as either a move or standard.

[quote]This is one of the times when 3.0's rules were actually clearer, by calling the "limited actions charge" a "partial charge" they made it a different action and thus clearly not covered by pounce.

in 3.5, anyway, this is irrelevant since pounce does not require an action. it activates automatically at the end of a charge.

[Khedrac]

No he doesn't. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Could you explain?
Hmm, probably not the best phrase to use considering where I took my argument, but these discussions often break down into "this specific rule trumps that general rule" which I usually regard as a matter of opinion on which rule is more specific. Here the specific rules is the pounce rule and the general rules is the multiple attacks rule, but I don't believe the pounce rule is addressing that, but merely the charge rule (which is also a specific rule).
I do agree however that I am veering from RAW and into RAI (as I read them). On the RAW front however, it isn't clear what the phrase about being limited to less that a full-round action actually means... (A discussion I am not going to get into.)



...without any of the text that states specifically that you can make multiple attacks as a standard action the General rule requiring a full round action to make multiple attacks still applies
That is not a rule. Hydras, for example, can make multiple attacks as a standard action with no special rules given.
Yes it is a rule:

Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action (see Full-Round Actions, below) in order to get more than one attack.
Hydras are exceptions to this rule and have special text stating that they can make multiple attacks if they move or charge during the round - so they nicely illustrate my point about requiring such text.

As for my point about pounce and 3.0 partial charges is that in 3.0 you don't charge you partial charge in limited action circumstances and thus pounce does not apply because one hasn't charged.


in 3.5, anyway, this is irrelevant since pounce does not require an action. it activates automatically at the end of a charge.Not quite true, the pounce is part of the charge - if activated at the end one would attack twice with the attack used for the charge. (No - I don't think you meant to imply that, but just being pedantic.)

[Psyren]

1) Yes.

2) Partial Action Charge + Pounce is a heavily debated topic on both sides. Ask your DM.

3) No, this is a special attack the mask gives you that requires a melee touch attack to activate.

[Chronos]

The rule says that making multiple attacks requires a full attack. It does not say that making multiple attacks requires a full-round action. A full attack is normally a full-round action, but Pounce provides another way you can make one. It's still a full attack, so you can still make multiple attacks.