Stacking bonus'

[montoya]

I have two questions about stacking, the first is about telling blow. When making a sneak attack and you score a crit is the telling blow damage applied to the crit as well as the sneak attack damage? For example would say 8d6 sneak attack damage be rolled twice?

And the second is about barbarian/FB stacking with magic equipment. Basically would a belt of giant strength stack with the bonus' you get from barbarian and FB? I was always unsure about it.

[The Insaniac]

First, critical hits only multiply base weapon damage and any flat additions (strength, enhancement, favored enemy, etc.) to damage, never variable bonuses (sneak attack, flaming, skirmish, etc.). There may be feats or enchantments that change that but I can't think of any.

Second, bonuses of different types stack, so you can't get the benefit from bull's strength and a belt of giant's strength because they're both enhancement bonuses. However, barbarian gives an untyped bonus to strength which does stack with the enhancement bonus.

[KingSmitty]

The untyped bonuses from rage and frenzy stack with each other and with an enhancement bonus.

If you're stacking rage-like abilities and are going FB look into deities and demigods for the Berserk PrC which has IMO a way better form of frenzy than the FB. +6 Str AND Con? no non-lethal damage? yes.

[montoya]

First, critical hits only multiply base weapon damage and any flat additions (strength, enhancement, favored enemy, etc.) to damage, never variable bonuses (sneak attack, flaming, skirmish, etc.). There may be feats or enchantments that change that but I can't think of any.

Second, bonuses of different types stack, so you can't get the benefit from bull's strength and a belt of giant's strength because they're both enhancement bonuses. However, barbarian gives an untyped bonus to strength which does stack with the enhancement bonus.

Yes that I know, I was just wondering if a sneak attack was a crit would I roll the 8d6 for telling blow then roll another 8d6 for sneak attack.

[Sir Chuckles]

Yes that I know, I was just wondering if a sneak attack was a crit would I roll the 8d6 for telling blow then roll another 8d6 for sneak attack.

Yes, I believe it should.

[montoya]

Yes, I believe it should.

Thats what I thought. Thanks!

[Fax Celestis]

No, it wouldn't. Telling Blow adds a new trigger condition to sneak attack, that's all. You don't double up on sneak dice when you flank a flat-footed guy, do you?

[KingSmitty]

This feat applies to crits when you aren't eligible for sneak attack and you get the damage anyway.


from sneak attack

"Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack,this extra damage is not multiplied."

Telling Blow

"When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks."


when you crit, you deal sneak attack damage and multiply your non dice damage and the sneak attack doesn't get multiplied. From my interpretation you get sneak attack damage whenever you crit. Though it doesn't say it you cant sneak attack anyway, and whats the point of the feat anyway if you can't? i'd rather buy a blurstrike weapon and get sneak attack all the time anytime. The extra damage from telling blow is bonus critical damage, but this feat is pretty good if your DM say it stacks, since he isnt here... i say it does! :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

Relevant Text:



Benefit

When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks.


So, Fax, I'm not seeing your position here. To me, it looks like Telling Blow is something like

Given: Existing Sneak Attack class feature

If: You score a critical.

Then: Add Sneak Attack damage.

Where does it say that scoring a critical hit while also separately qualifying for Sneak Attack damage in the normal method will only add Sneak Attack damage once? I'm not seeing it.

[montoya]

To me I would say yes it stacks because whats the point otherwise of the feat?

[georgie_leech]

To me I would say yes it stacks because whats the point otherwise of the feat?

To give another way to get Sneak Attack. If all the feats in the game were good, we wouldn't have Toughness or Run or, Pelor forbid, Focused Lexicon.

[Denver]

To give another way to get Sneak Attack. If all the feats in the game were good, we wouldn't have Toughness or Run or, Pelor forbid, Focused Lexicon.

Yes, but what the feat really does is add Sneak Attack *damage* to your Critical Hits. So when you make a Sneak Attack and score a Critical Hit, the Critical Hit's new damage value requires the use of Sneak Attack damage rolls.

The attack doesn't become a Sneak Attack when you Crit. So when the character does make a Sneak Attack, they get that damage bonus. If they Crit, they get that damage bonus, too. This Crit damage bonus, however, requires additional die rolling over and above a normal Crit, because of the Feat "Telling Blow."

[georgie_leech]

-scrapped because double post-

[georgie_leech]

Yes, but what the feat really does is add Sneak Attack *damage* to your Critical Hits. So when you make a Sneak Attack and score a Critical Hit, the Critical Hit's new damage value requires the use of Sneak Attack damage rolls.

The attack doesn't become a Sneak Attack when you Crit. So when the character does make a Sneak Attack, they get that damage bonus. If they Crit, they get that damage bonus, too. This Crit damage bonus, however, requires additional die rolling over and above a normal Crit, because of the Feat "Telling Blow."


Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm)

By the definition of sneak attack, you do an extra amount of damage whenever certain conditions are met. It only refers to "sneak attacks" in the sense of not having to write out "the extra damage you deal when attack a target you are flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC." In other words, "sneak attack" is shorthand for "adding your sneak attack damage." With Telling Blow, you do this damage on a critical hit; you would not also add more damage for being flanked or for losing dexterity bonus. You've already added your sneak attack damage for the attack.

[Denver]

By the definition of sneak attack, you do an extra amount of damage whenever certain conditions are met. It only refers to "sneak attacks" in the sense of not having to write out "the extra damage you deal when attack a target you are flanking or that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC." In other words, "sneak attack" is shorthand for "adding your sneak attack damage." With Telling Blow, you do this damage on a critical hit; you would not also add more damage for being flanked or for losing dexterity bonus. You've already added your sneak attack damage for the attack.

With respect, I simply don't agree. Catching an opponent flat-footed, or flanking your opponent, or gaining the surprise round are all conditions which can satisfy the trigger for the Rogue's bonus Sneak Attack damage.

Successfully rolling a critical hit is a trigger for Telling Blow. Telling Blow modifies the way the Critical Hit works, not the way the Sneak Attack works.

I'd also agree it probably isn't what was intended for the feat, but I am not aware of anything saying Sneak Attack damage cannot be applied twice in the same round - so I posit that it works just fine. Flavorwise I don't see why it wouldn't work: The hiding rogue picks a vital spot and stabs the enemy, in doing so, the rogue finds she strikes the enemy *even harder* than she thought she would, and does even more damage to that vital area of the enemy's body, using her (already acknowledged) knowledge of the vital areas of the body.

[georgie_leech]

With respect, I simply don't agree. Catching an opponent flat-footed, or flanking your opponent, or gaining the surprise round are all conditions which can satisfy the trigger for the Rogue's bonus Sneak Attack damage.

Successfully rolling a critical hit is a trigger for Telling Blow. Telling Blow modifies the way the Critical Hit works, not the way the Sneak Attack works.

I'd also agree it probably isn't what was intended for the feat, but I am not aware of anything saying Sneak Attack damage cannot be applied twice in the same round - so I posit that it works just fine. Flavorwise I don't see why it wouldn't work: The hiding rogue picks a vital spot and stabs the enemy, in doing so, the rogue finds she strikes the enemy *even harder* than she thought she would, and does even more damage to that vital area of the enemy's body, using her (already acknowledged) knowledge of the vital areas of the body.

Under the interpretation that it modifies Critical Hits rather than Sneak/Skirmish Attacks, yes, it would stack. I don't think that's what it's doing, but I don't think it's necessarily contradicting RAW to view it that way. To each his own.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think I see it much as Denver. And, in the big scheme of things, if the rogue occasionally super-ganks someone after finagling a sneak attack that also criticals, after sinking a feat into the process, that's not terribly unbalancing (or even far beyond what the game seems to have been intending to make possible...ganking people should result in some proportion of one-shotting targets).

Even with some op tricks at their command, I can't see being able to stack the dice doing more than just a bunch of d6s, already known fairly widely as one of the least effective ways to get stuff done in the game. Trying to figure out how to milk it for more is giving me a headache, but I guess start with a crit-fisher build with Dex to damage. That's already a bunch more op resource right there.

[Denver]

I think I see it much as Denver. And, in the big scheme of things, if the rogue occasionally super-ganks someone after finagling a sneak attack that also criticals, after sinking a feat into the process, that's not terribly unbalancing (or even far beyond what the game seems to have been intending to make possible...ganking people should result in some proportion of one-shotting targets).

Even with some op tricks at their command, I can't see being able to stack the dice doing more than just a bunch of d6s, already known fairly widely as one of the least effective ways to get stuff done in the game. Trying to figure out how to milk it for more is giving me a headache, but I guess start with a crit-fisher build with Dex to damage. That's already a bunch more op resource right there.

At best, I think taking the feat Craven would mean that in an instance like the one this thread describes, you would add your Craven damage twice - which could be really brutal, honestly. (Especially as Craven's added damage *is* multiplied during a critical hit, as a non-dice constant of damage.) But that still requires the two separate conditions for Sneak Attack and for Critical Hit would have to be satisfied to activate Telling Blow and Craven twice.

edit: Also, apologies for missing your earlier post in the thread. You essentially said what I was trying to say, except in far fewer lines and with much more concision.

[georgie_leech]

Would the critical hit interpretation allow sneak/skirmish attack damage beyond 30 feat? It seems like it, if it's not actually a sneak/skirmish attack. For the record I'm not making judgements based on balance, I just like examining the RAW of things.

[Phelix-Mu]

No problems. I like your phrasing as well, and it has reinforced my belief in my position; Telling Blow makes Sneak Attack dice into "bonus crit dice." There is no phrasing that to me indicates that you can't get bonus crit dice and separately qualify for normal Sneak Attack dice.

And, even with Craven and a x4 weapon on a level 20 rogue, that's like, what...

Well, let's say it's Dex to damage somehow, Dex 30 is pretty realistic at end game. So that's +10.

+20 Craven.

+5 magic weapon.

Let's say +5 more from random buffs.

So that's +40 damage mod, x4= 160 for the crit, +12d6 (I think optimized SA ends up in this ballpark) for Telling Blow, average 42 or so, for a total of 202 from the critical hit.

Add +20 Craven and +12d6 for a Sneak Attack, that's another 62.

Grand Total 264 damage off one attack.

Now, it could be bad if he can land it on iteratives, but unlikely to crit for each of them (or less likely). Keep in mind it looks like this theoretical rogue sank no less than three feats into this, twenty levels of Sneak Attack granting classes, a good amount of magical equipment, and arranged tactical advantage (something I like to encourage players to be working for anyway, instead of just aiming for straight up beatdown). And still relying on luck. And on a x4 weapon that works with Dex to damage, which likely doesn't exist.

I think a barbarian could trivialize this accomplishment in significantly less levels in a terrible class (allowing more build freedom). And I think a proper Mailman or blastomancer could probably do the same, and both of these options would be much more reliable than even a rogue that managed to crank up their crit rate.

There is good support for Sneak Attack, though, so I'm likely missing factors. But, in the world of TO, anything that is relying on luck to work is terrible, and it's only slightly less terrible at an actual table. So I'm still seeing this as only competitive damage output. And if there is any class that should be getting the mundane equivalent of nova-ing, it's the rogue (flavor that is much less prevalent in how the class often ends up being optimized).

EDIT: My terrible math (or blindness) seem to have knocked my numbers off by some 40 points of damage from the critical. So 304 grand total. Slightly more respectable, but still only on par with a decent Shocktrooper, and relying on the critical to land (and even work at all).

[Denver]

Actually, in reading up on this feat - I may have been wrong. I keep seeing mention that the feat was given an errata to specifically address the issue brought up in this thread, but I cannot find the errata. In short, I keep seeing mention that you do not get to apply the Sneak Attack bonus twice in the case of satisfying for Sneak Attack and satisfying for Critical Hit.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, in reading up on this feat - I may have been wrong. I keep seeing mention that the feat was given an errata to specifically address the issue brought up in this thread, but I cannot find the errata.
Nah, just a FAQ answer:
When a rogue with the Telling Blow feat (PHB II 83) deals a critical hit against a flat-footed enemy, does she add her sneak attack damage twice?
No. The feat simply adds another criteria that “activates” your sneak attack or skirmish damage; it doesn’t allow either of those values to be added twice.

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, in reading up on this feat - I may have been wrong. I keep seeing mention that the feat was given an errata to specifically address the issue brought up in this thread, but I cannot find the errata. In short, I keep seeing mention that you do not get to apply the Sneak Attack bonus twice in the case of satisfying for Sneak Attack and satisfying for Critical Hit.

Well, if it's actual errata, that's something. But I largely disregard other commentary from the designers, cause it's, at best, 50-50 that they are on the mark or smoking proverbial hashish.

As to georgie's question, I'd probably let them skip the range req, too. The only real exploit here that I can see is that you can land Swift Hunter for crits on every FE (not overpowered), Telling Blow for Skirmish on every crit on FE, then maybe pump up crits so you are critting with half your hits (probably only possible in melee...ranged I can't see it getting above 20%, if that). This is still going to be a brutally painful exercise that will pretty much pigeonhole the build, and it's still likely blocked by anything that actually has Fortification something or other, instead of normal critical immunity.

EDIT: Well, Curmudgeon, as usual, brings us the extent of the RAW of it. And it's a terrible ruling. As far as I'm concerned, if a rogue manages to crit on a gank under optimal conditions, something is going to die, and that's the way it should be.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, if it's actual errata, that's something. But I largely disregard other commentary from the designers, cause it's, at best, 50-50 that they are on the mark or smoking proverbial hashish.

As to georgie's question, I'd probably let them skip the range req, too. The only real exploit here that I can see is that you can land Swift Hunter for crits on every FE (not overpowered), Telling Blow for Skirmish on every crit on FE, then maybe pump up crits so you are critting with half your hits (probably only possible in melee...ranged I can't see it getting above 20%, if that). This is still going to be a brutally painful exercise that will pretty much pigeonhole the build, and it's still likely blocked by anything that actually has Fortification something or other, instead of normal critical immunity.

EDIT: Well, Curmudgeon, as usual, brings us the extent of the RAW of it. And it's a terrible ruling. As far as I'm concerned, if a rogue manages to crit on a gank under optimal conditions, something is going to die, and that's the way it should be.

Like I said earlier in the thread: If I sneak attack a flanked, flat-footed dude, do I get my SA dice twice? Chances are your answer is no. So why would I get them twice with Telling Blow and a flat-footed opponent?

EDIT: Perhaps a clearer way of saying this: "Sneak Attack" is a binary condition: either it activates or it does not. If you crit with Telling Blow, you add your sneak dice, and the attack is now a sneak attack. Whether or not you're flanking your opponent is immaterial: you've already flipped the binary status of sneak attack from "off" to "on".

[Curmudgeon]

I'm happy enough that Telling Blow enables sneak attack/skirmish damage whenever you make a critical hit. So you don't get thwarted by concealment, distance more than 30', or (for skirmish) not having moved 10' already in the round.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm happy enough that Telling Blow enables sneak attack/skirmish damage whenever you make a critical hit. So you don't get thwarted by concealment, distance more than 30', or (for skirmish) not having moved 10' already in the round.

Oh, absolutely. It's a terrific feat. It's up there with Craven, IMO, for sneak attackers.

[Phelix-Mu]

Like I said earlier in the thread: If I sneak attack a flanked, flat-footed dude, do I get my SA dice twice? Chances are your answer is no. So why would I get them twice with Telling Blow and a flat-footed opponent?

EDIT: Perhaps a clearer way of saying this: "Sneak Attack" is a binary condition: either it activates or it does not. If you crit with Telling Blow, you add your sneak dice, and the attack is now a sneak attack. Whether or not you're flanking your opponent is immaterial: you've already flipped the binary status of sneak attack from "off" to "on".

The feat doesn't reflect that the critical is now a Sneak Attack. You get the dice added on, but it isn't subject to any of the other restrictions of Sneak Attack, so I don't see that you've already got a Sneak Attack going on, as you suggest.

The phrasing of the feat is pretty straightforward, IMHO.



Benefit
When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks.

One of the main benefits of the feat, as I've viewed it in the past, is that it doesn't carry all the silly Sneak Attack baggage with it. It's just a straightforward extra damage mechanic, which just happens to measure the extra damage by your dice in an otherwise unrelated class feature.

[Denver]

Well, that settles that. Thank you for the clarifying response, Curmudgeon - appreciate it.

[Fax Celestis]

The feat doesn't reflect that the critical is now a Sneak Attack. You get the dice added on, but it isn't subject to any of the other restrictions of Sneak Attack, so I don't see that you've already got a Sneak Attack going on, as you suggest.

The phrasing of the feat is pretty straightforward, IMHO.



One of the main benefits of the feat, as I've viewed it in the past, is that it doesn't carry all the silly Sneak Attack baggage with it. It's just a straightforward extra damage mechanic, which just happens to measure the extra damage by your dice in an otherwise unrelated class feature.

Uh, the feat is pretty clearly making it into a sneak attack.


When you score a critical hit against a target, you deal your skirmish or sneak attack damage in addition to the damage from your critical hit. Your critical multiplier applies only to your normal damage, not your skirmish or sneak attack damage. This benefit affects both melee and ranged attacks.


You are adding "sneak attack damage". Ergo, it is a sneak attack.

[Phelix-Mu]

Uh, the feat is pretty clearly making it into a sneak attack.



You are adding "sneak attack damage". Ergo, it is a sneak attack.

Hmm. No, I'm still unconvinced. It's your "sneak attack damage," which is just a bunch of d6s; if you look at the SA feature in PHB, there is much more going on there than just the bonus damage. Does the feat say you have to follow all the other rules for Sneak Attack? No, it actually suggests the opposite, and that things that block sneak attack won't block Telling Blow (because it is a source other than sneak attack).

I think they could have made it more explicit (and needed to, based on the existence of the FAQ), but they didn't, and so there is room for interpreting it either way. I just favor the position that supports more oomph for a group of archetypes that are typically fairly short on oomph.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm. No, I'm still unconvinced. It's your "sneak attack damage," which is just a bunch of d6s; if you look at the SA feature in PHB, there is much more going on there than just the bonus damage. Does the feat say you have to follow all the other rules for Sneak Attack? No, it actually suggests the opposite, and that things that block sneak attack won't block Telling Blow (because it is a source other than sneak attack).

I think they could have made it more explicit (and needed to, based on the existence of the FAQ), but they didn't, and so there is room for interpreting it either way. I just favor the position that supports more oomph for a group of archetypes that are typically fairly short on oomph.

Your reading of the feat turns it from "A terrific option" to "Feat tax", I hope you realize.

[georgie_leech]

Your reading of the feat turns it from "A terrific option" to "Feat tax", I hope you realize.

...It's an odd quirk of our community that we use that phrase to mean both feats you have to take for pre-reqs but are otherwise terrible, and for feats that are so crucial you have to have them.

[Phelix-Mu]

Your reading of the feat turns it from "A terrific option" to "Feat tax", I hope you realize.

Hmm. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that it's now so fabulous that every Sneak Attack build needs it? Or have I missed some interaction that is making my interpretation a handicap?

Cause feats in the vein of Craven, if they are a feat tax, are usually still welcome among classes that need it. And low crit chance bow builds still might not find a use for it, especially given the busy nature of archery as it is.

[montoya]

The reason I was leaning toward Telling Blow stacking with Sneak Attack is because what is the point of gaining a sneak attack after taking the feat? All the feat says is you add sneak attack damage to a critical hit. Makes not mention of it taking over as a sneak attack. In a way its limiting a rogue's class ability if you do not stack the damage. Can it be overpowered? Maybe, but compared to other feats and class abilities this one is rather tame. To me your sneak attack damage dice now become part of your critical hit without being multiplied. And a sneak attack is a different "bonus" you get when certain conditions are met. But the rulebook and feat do not say either way.

[Phelix-Mu]

Indeed, and I think it's unwise to suggest that Telling Blow is now so much better than that thing that you should have been trying to do always since forever, but which is sometimes hard. Stealthing/flanking/skirmishing is certainly not an Easy Button, but pretty much everyone that goes into a class like that knows that and takes it as part of the package.

What is painful about SA is that the game makes it seem useful if you meet X and Y, but neglects to tell you in the PHB that you often can't get it at all, because so many monsters were printed with actual or practical immunity to it. That's stupid, and so I am more than open to suggestions that, if the rogue is working for it tactically and gets lucky, he can expect to make the proverbial hay out of the enemy.

On the other hand, maybe under this interpretation Telling Blow is good enough to be an alternative to Craven, the standard feat tax for SA builds. On a crit-fisher build or a Swift Hunter, it's probably just as good.

Also, Craven doesn't work for scout at all, I don't think. So this is good support for the otherwise support-lite scout.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm. I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that it's now so fabulous that every Sneak Attack build needs it? Or have I missed some interaction that is making my interpretation a handicap?

Cause feats in the vein of Craven, if they are a feat tax, are usually still welcome among classes that need it. And low crit chance bow builds still might not find a use for it, especially given the busy nature of archery as it is.
it is now so good that anyone who sneak attacks has to spend a feat on this.


The reason I was leaning toward Telling Blow stacking with Sneak Attack is because what is the point of gaining a sneak attack after taking the feat? All the feat says is you add sneak attack damage to a critical hit. Makes not mention of it taking over as a sneak attack. In a way its limiting a rogue's class ability if you do not stack the damage. Can it be overpowered? Maybe, but compared to other feats and class abilities this one is rather tame. To me your sneak attack damage dice now become part of your critical hit without being multiplied. And a sneak attack is a different "bonus" you get when certain conditions are met. But the rulebook and feat do not say either way.

Because it means it works whenever you crit?

I am bolding all of the circumstances in which Telling Blow surpasses the normal limitations on sneak attack:


Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

The short version: "If it is vulnerable to crits (so, basically anything except golems, oozes, plants, and undead, of which there are myriad options to defeat that specific defense), you can sneak attack it."

Furthermore, this gives you a means to still sneak attack creatures with all-around vision (beholders), true seeing (balors), see invisibility (any spellcaster worth his salt over 7th level), and other, similar preventative measures. Landing a crit is far easier than triggering sneak attack conditions, especially at higher levels, and especially especially if you invest in crit confirmation bonuses (which are relatively easy to come by if you look for them) and crit threat range bonuses.