Breaking Bad Habits?

[Starchild7309]

So as an avid and LONG time 2nd and 3.x player I just recently started a 5ed campaign. I am truly astounded at how different the play style is. Also, since I am currently part of a 3.5 campaign I have that fresh in my mind and I am trying to break habits that while generally good for 3.5 are useless or detrimental in 5ed.

Examples:
1. Just from mindset from 3.5 to 5, only having one saving throw and it being so low vs what saves are in 3.5 makes me reluctant to cast a spell at a creature because I am sure that there is no way it can miss, but in reality often times does.

2. Having an AC of 17 in my 3.5 game makes you one step up from a caster, while in 5ed, its pretty decent, but still trying to get past the thought that I am about to get destroyed every time I run into something.

So what things have you noticed that you, either out of habit or for whatever reason, carried over from a different edition that has been counter productive to play? Or is it just me?

[Cyan Wisp]

3.5e: AoO for many situations.
5e: One AoO situation: moving out of reach.

3.5e: Pre-battle Buff up regimes
5e: Which one buff should I use? (due to concentration mechanic)

3.5e: Wiz gets out crossbow
5e: Wiz blasts with fire bolt again.

3.5e: Move, action or Action, move
5e: Move, action, move.

3.5e: Kill the Gobbos
5e: Run from the Gobbos! Where are the Gobbos? Ahhh!

3.5e: "My Diplomacy check was 35. Awesome!"
5e: "My Persuasion check was 20. Awesome!"

3.5e: Walk to door, open it.
5e: Walk to door and open it, do something else like cast a spell

3.5e: "Charge!"
5e: Use Charger feat.

3.5e: Double move
5e: Move and Dash.

3.5e: So, you're a monk?
5e: What kind of monk are you?

3.5e: Wild shape very scary
5e: Wild shape very scary. Oh, hang on. :smallconfused:

[Sartharina]

3.5e: Wiz won't be running out of spell slots
5e: Wiz is stuck using cantrips. At least they deal decent damage!

3.5e: Move, action or Action, move
5e: Move, action, move.

3.5e: Walk to door, open it, get pasted by anything on the other side.
5e: Bust open the doors crossbows blazing

3.5e: "Charge ALL THE THINGS! ALL THE TIME"
5e: Stay the hell away from the Charger feat because dayum that thing sucks.
Fixed a few of those for you. :smalltongue:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Breaking Bad habits, eh? So you tend to sell illegal substances, get in over your head working with/against violent and evil organizations, constantly lie to everyone, and have the greatest lawyer of all time?

Anyway, like it was when I went from 3.5 to 4e or 3.5 to PF, you break those habits over time.

[McBars]

Breaking Bad habits, eh? So you tend to sell illegal substances, get in over your head working with/against violent and evil organizations, constantly lie to everyone, and have the greatest lawyer of all time

Well played

[T.G. Oskar]

Breaking Bad habits, eh? So you tend to sell illegal substances, get in over your head working with/against violent and evil organizations, constantly lie to everyone, and have the greatest lawyer of all time?

Don't forget: you ARE the Fear. When someone knocks the door, you are the one who knocks.

A few more:
3.5: Paladins must be Lawful Good
5e: Paladins can be any alignment. They just like to be non-evil.

3.5: Oh, you broke The Code? Say hi to the Warrior NPC class with better BAB.
5e: Oh, you broke your Tenet? Fine, no Oath goodies for you! You can still cast spells and Smite, tho.

3.5: I use Flurry of Blows! ...Erm, more like Flurry of Misses...
5e: I spend 1 ki point to make 4 attacks!

3.5: Wizard calls Solar! Go, Solar! Solar uses Gate! It's Super Effective!
5e: Wizard calls Solar! ...Sorry, all 12 Solars in existence can't answer your call. Do you wish to call a known Planetar instead?

3.5: Weapon Focus gives me +1 to attack rolls!!! ...But I still need like 5 points to beat average AC.
5e: Where's Weapon Focus?

3.5: Improved Critical or Keen?
5e: What's an "increased critical threat range"? Oh, the stuff from the Champion Fighter!

3.5: Greatsword or GTFO
5e: Greatsword, Maul or GTFO

3.5: Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper = only worthwhile melee character
5e: Great Weapon Fighting + Great Weapon Master = best damage out there, but not by much.

3.5: Attack Action = 1 attack
5e: Attack Action = 1 attack, or 2-4 with Extra Action.

3.5: Swift, Immediate, Move, Standard and Free
5e: Bonus Action, Reaction, Action, you can Move if you want and you can make one "free" action per round.

3.5: Disclaimer - Sneak Attack does not work on creatures without discernible anatomies. You must take your enemy unaware in order to make this move. Call your doctor if you find yourself surrounded by enemies with Fortification, immunity to critical hits or immunity to precision damage; these may be signs of a common and potentially lethal condition. Do not use if the opponent has concealment. See the Player's Handbook for more details.
5e: 1) Gain Advantage on attack rolls; 2) Make sure you don't gain Disadvantage on attack rolls; 3) Use Attack Action; 4) ... ; 5) Profit!

3.5: Wizards can do extra actions every round
5e: Fighters and Rogues can do extra actions every round

3.5: 5 ability score improvements, 7 feats
5e: 5 ability score improvements OR feats

3.5: When all else fails, go Human
5e: When all else fails, go variant Human. Wait, what?

[Occasional Sage]

3.5: Disclaimer - Sneak Attack does not work on creatures without discernible anatomies. You must take your enemy unaware in order to make this move. Call your doctor if you find yourself surrounded by enemies with Fortification, immunity to critical hits or immunity to precision damage; these may be signs of a common and potentially lethal condition. Do not use if the opponent has concealment. See the Player's Handbook for more details.
5e: 1) Gain Advantage on attack rolls; 2) Make sure you don't gain Disadvantage on attack rolls; 3) Use Attack Action; 4) ... ; 5) Profit!




4) ...


Are those the holes left by "3) Use Attack Action"?

[mr_odd]

Breaking Bad habits, eh? So you tend to sell illegal substances, get in over your head working with/against violent and evil organizations, constantly lie to everyone, and have the greatest lawyer of all time?

I actually came to this thread assuming it was how to create Walter White in 5e....

Anywho, habits will be broken as you play the game. The most important thing is to make sure you're playing 5e, and not a combination of the two. It's easy to mix up rules from other rpgs.

[Draken]

3.5: Oh, you broke The Code? Say hi to the Warrior NPC class with better BAB.
5e: Oh, you broke your Tenet? Fine, no Oath goodies for you! You can still cast spells and Smite, tho.

Better HD, same BAB. :smalltongue:

Which pretty much means an even smaller difference between the two.

[Galen]

3.5e: You want to be an archer? You need to grab two feats just for basic competence (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot)
5e: You want to be an archer? The only thing you need to grab is a bow.

3.5e: You want to be a Dex-based warrior? You need to grab Weapon Finesse just for basic competence
5e: You want to be a Dex-based warrior? The only thing you need to grab grab is a rapier.

3.5e: You want to fight with two weapons? You need to grab Two Weapon Fighting just for basic competence
5e: You want to fight with two weapons? The only thing you need to grab is a shortsword. And a second shortsword, I guess.

3.5e: You want to fight with sword-and-shield? ROTLFMAO, you're such a noob, S&B is clearly inferior.
5e: You want to fight with sword-and-shield? Sure, go ahead.

3.5e: You want to play a Monk? Hahahhahahahaha ROTFLMAO. No, seriously, why would you want to play a Monk?
5e: You want to play a Monk? Cool, what kind?

3.5e: You want to play a Fighter? Hahahhahahahaha ROTFLMAO. No, seriously, why would you want to play a Fighter?
5e: You want to play a Fighter? Cool, what kind?

3.5e: You want to be a class that can be stealthy and cast a bit of spells? Better spend a few levels sucking and make sure you have all the prereqs checked.
5e: You want to be a class that can be stealthy and cast a bit of spells? Go ahead.

[MadGrady]

3.5: DM - "So you want to have an animal companion? Oh dear GOD my encounter is ruined!
5e: DM - "So....you want an animal companion....ok.....if you want....I guess.....it's pretty crappy though...."

[IAmTehDave]

3.5: I rolled a 38 against his touch AC...Miss
5e: Damn, I only rolled a 16, Ne...oh, what? Hit? Awesome!

[pwykersotz]

3.5: I rolled a 38 against his touch AC...Miss
5e: Damn, I only rolled a 16, Ne...oh, what? Hit? Awesome!

This is a big one. The driving need to optimize your to-hit is less necessary here. In my experience, running properly CR'd low level adventures, everyone hits and everyone gets hit about 75% of the time. Misses are possible, but more rare. In my opinion, this is a good thing. Players feel effective and powerful when their blows land, and enemies feel dangerous.

Multiple bad habits that carried over from my 3.5 table that we had to adjust for:

Partial actions don't exist (technically 3.0)
Defining categories that don't exist. As others have eloquently stated, there are three d20 based rolls in 5e. Attack rolls, Ability Checks (including skills), Saves.
Misremembering damage types. They are much more codified and streamlined.
Asking for Reflex saves. It's Dex now! Why can't I stop asking for Reflex?!
Carrying over unnecessary house-rules. I had a decently long list to 'fix' 3.5, but most aren't needed anymore. The only one I kept is giving my PC's 1/2 of their HD automatically when they level and having them roll for the other half to keep HP a little less swingy.

[IAmTehDave]

]Multiple bad habits that carried over from my 3.5 table that we had to adjust for:
Partial actions don't exist (technically 3.0)
Defining categories that don't exist. As others have eloquently stated, there are three d20 based rolls in 5e. Attack rolls, Ability Checks (including skills), Saves.
Misremembering damage types. They are much more codified and streamlined.
Asking for Reflex saves. It's Dex now! Why can't I stop asking for Reflex?!
Carrying over unnecessary house-rules. I had a decently long list to 'fix' 3.5, but most aren't needed anymore. The only one I kept is giving my PC's 1/2 of their HD automatically when they level and having them roll for the other half to keep HP a little less swingy.

The first 4 are more a matter of syntax than anything.
Note: You can still call the Dex/Wis/Con saves Reflex/Will/Fort, and come up with new names for the "minor" 3. I might do that to screw with more veteran players if I ever run a 5e game with those.

The HP/level fix is actually quite brilliant, and I might just steal that for my own games. I was going to say that all HP/level is 3/4 HD (instead of the 1/2 HD +1 of 5e's "standard" level up HP) but this adds a die roll, which I know from experience can be satisfying.

[Galen]

This is a big one. The driving need to optimize your to-hit is less necessary here.There's also a lot less opportunity to optimize your to-hit. Bonus stacking in 5E is just not what it used to be :smallwink:

[Freelance GM]

My players keep trying to flank enemies.

To be fair, though, Flanking managed to hold on until the last few playtest packets.

[Sartharina]

This is a big one. The driving need to optimize your to-hit is less necessary here. In my experience, running properly CR'd low level adventures, everyone hits and everyone gets hit about 75% of the time. Misses are possible, but more rare. In my opinion, this is a good thing. Players feel effective and powerful when their blows land, and enemies feel dangerous.Hmm... in my campaigns, players hit more often than monsters... but monsters have more HP. If anything, it feels backward to me, because when a player lands a hit, it's not individually telling... but if a monster manages to land a hit, it can be crippling to a player.


Carrying over unnecessary house-rules. I had a decently long list to 'fix' 3.5, but most aren't needed anymore. The only one I kept is giving my PC's 1/2 of their HD automatically when they level and having them roll for the other half to keep HP a little less swingy.5e has its own solution - Half HD+1.


3.5: DM - "So you want to have an animal companion? Oh dear GOD my encounter is ruined!
5e: DM - "So....you want an animal companion....ok.....if you want....I guess.....it's pretty crappy though...."The only class that had Animal Companions ruin encounters was the one with Full Caster Progression, on-demand Summons, and the ability to freely dump physical stats.

[Aldurin]

3.5e: The wizard casts two spells at once while his summon full-attacks, leaving the dragon finely mashed and ready for seasoning.
5e: The wizard casts his spell and tries to run from the dragon, but is now finely roasted and ready for seasoning.

3.5e: My 35 charisma counts toward my AC three times over.
5e: I sacrificed a feat option to get my Charisma to 18, I hope it's worth it!

3.5e: I am Iron Man, The Hulk and Thor simultaneously. It's jarring when the enemy actually hits back, but otherwise I feel like I'm skeet shooting.
5e: I'm Hawkeye, or Black Widow. Or other lower-tier hero. It's not as jarring when the enemy actually hits back and I feel like I'm in an actual fight.

3.5e: I want to specialize in a certain way. Why do I hear my caster levels clogging a toilet nearby?
5e: I want to specialize in a certain way. I choose my subclass accordingly and don't agonize over the only downside of not being a different subclass.

3.5e: These feats suck and I have more slots to fill, I need to cherry pick from the vast archive of supplements.
5e: These feats actually feel like a change for my character, but damn they're few and far in between to get.

3.5e: I finally hired an accountant who can keep track of my undead control pool!
5e: Undead are like vehicles, you don't want too many and you need to pay attention to keep regular maintenance on them so that they don't eat you in your sleep.

3.5e: I'm wearing 15 of the best magic items I can get. I look like a psychedelic rift under Arcane Sight.
5e: Hang on . . . is this sword magical? HOLY ***, guys! I found a magic item!

3.5e: Will you allow homebrew so I can play a proper martial class?
5e: I'm playing a proper martial class. The caster looks over in sadness as he resorts to cantrip spam since he has to be careful of his resource system.

3.5e: "On this episode of How It's Made, homebrew fixes for the Fighter Class!"
5e: *Excessively australian accent* "The fighter is a varied and unpredictable creature, able to find prey to feed its young using any combination of weapons and tactics depending on its choices. Provoking a fighter into defending its territory is dangerous, as their range of abilities makes them hard to plan for and they can attack quickly enough to snap any unlucky caster in two."

3.5e: I wade through the swarm of CR 3 kobolds as I make my way to work. My Fireball spell slot is needed elsewhere.
5e: I'm still traumatized from the time my 15th level companions were eaten alive by CR 3 kobolds. You can't let your guard down anywhere.

3.5e: "We justify our race and template combinations by saying we escaped from a bioweaponry lab stationed in a radiation storm in the Far Realms!"
5e: "We justify our race choices by saying we are normal people who come from this world. Those that seem out of place in the current region have made some unusual life choices."

3.5e: I'm a sorcerer, my family lineage has the occasional dragon in there. I'd rather not talk about it. Yes, just like the other sorcerer.
5e: I'm a sorcerer, I was influenced by different cosmic or biological forces than the other sorcerer. We're actually quite different casters functionally.

3.5e: I want a character that lives with honor. I choose Samurai. I die with honor quickly after.
5e: I want a character that lives with honor. I choose a Paladin or a Fighter and wield a katana. My career is long and prosperous.

3.5e: "My friends were murdered by a bear!" "That was a druid." "Oh . . ."
5e: "My friends were eaten by a bear!" "That was a dr-" "And now the bear is eating us! OH MY GOD!"

5e is gonna be fun to run with for a while.

[pwykersotz]

5e has its own solution - Half HD+1.

Yeah, my players all love to gamble. They would be bored with a static increase. It was nice to see that option in the book though. Just like it's nice to see average attack rolls and damage paired with monsters. It makes at-a-glance judgements easier for me, even if I try not to let those come up too much.

[Sartharina]

The only time I would ever find rolling HP acceptable is if you do it at the end of every long rest, instead of as a permament thing. But that could actually probably work in 5e.

[Galen]

I still keep forgetting I can move both before and after my action. Move 15', cast something... I guess I'm done with my turn? Oh wait, I could have moved 15' back to stay out of range.

[Vintrastorm]

@Starchild - This thread is awesome, but, IMO, should really be called "Breaking 3.5 Habits". Or "Breaking Bad 3.5 Habits".

:)

[MaxWilson]

@Starchild - This thread is awesome, but, IMO, should really be called "Breaking 3.5 Habits". Or "Breaking Bad 3.5 Habits".

:)

Not necessarily. I have some bad habits from 2nd edition too. The one Galen mentions above (you can move, before and after your action!) is one. I've broken the "underestimating goblins" habit already, fortunately.

[Naanomi]

I actually came to this thread assuming it was how to create Walter White in 5e....
Just a wizard/transmuter with a low Con and a distinctive color on his philosopher's stone...

One for me that I am happy to see:

3.5: Why are you healing? Use a wand!
4.0: Why are you healing, everyone can regenerate when they feel like it anyways!
5e: Dear Gods, Cleric heal me these weasels have me surrounded! I'm going down agahggghhg!

[Devils_Advocate]

3.5: Weapon Focus gives me +1 to attack rolls!!! ...But I still need like 5 points to beat average AC.
5e: Where's Weapon Focus?
Crappy feat not found. But here are some related searches:
- Ability Score increase
- How do I find a magic weapon
- How to gain Advantage on attack rolls

> Search "How do I raise a stat over 20"

I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Dave.


3.5: Disclaimer - Sneak Attack does not work on creatures without discernible anatomies. You must take your enemy unaware in order to make this move. Call your doctor if you find yourself surrounded by enemies with Fortification, immunity to critical hits or immunity to precision damage; these may be signs of a common and potentially lethal condition. Do not use if the opponent has concealment. See the Player's Handbook for more details.
5e: 1) Gain Advantage on attack rolls; 2) Make sure you don't gain Disadvantage on attack rolls; 3) Use Attack Action; 4) ... ; 5) Profit!
Characters without a finesse or a ranged weapon should not attempt to use Sneak Attack. Ask your D&D 5E forum if Sneak Attack is right for you!


3.5e: I'm wearing 15 of the best magic items I can get. I look like a psychedelic rift under Arcane Sight.
5e: Hang on . . . is this sword magical? HOLY ***, guys! I found a magic item!
3.5e: "You want a +1 flaming shock longsword? Okay, deduct the price from your character sheet. You're in a sufficiently large metropolis that we can assume you found one without any trouble. Um, no, nothing of note happens in the process of acquiring it, let's not sweat the details here. No, you can't negotiate for a lower price. But, look, the merchant doesn't try to charge you a higher price than he would anyone else, either, despite your obvious wealth. All of the prices on magic items are, um, fixed by the International Magic Items Merchants' Guild. Moving on!"
5e: "No, player characters aren't assumed to be able to conveniently buy and sell any magic item any more, that was silly. Like no one can afford them, there's no market for them. Well, yeah, other stuff, including expensive material components for spells, is still described as if price measured in gold pieces were an inherent quality... but permanent magic items are way more valuable than that, like even putting a price in gold on them is ridiculous, okay? ... Well, yeah, that does mean that even a lot of minor royalty would prize something like... Um, well. I suppose that substantial wealth, huge tracts of land (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YiPC91QUk), and/or significant political influence would help your character's goals a lot more than +1 to hit, but, look, I hadn't quite planned for..."

[Naanomi]

My view on the magic mart:

3.5: my adventuring career is an endless chain of scraping together coin to stay viable; I can never once deviate from my expenditure budget or risk falling behind.

5: This is why I became an adventurer; let the ale and whores flow!

[Starchild7309]

@Starchild - This thread is awesome, but, IMO, should really be called "Breaking 3.5 Habits". Or "Breaking Bad 3.5 Habits".

:)

Thank you....yeah I could have called it that, but its more fun to sucker Breaking Bad fans into reading it.

[Kornaki]

5e: "No, player characters aren't assumed to be able to conveniently buy and sell any magic item any more, that was silly. Like no one can afford them, there's no market for them. Well, yeah, other stuff, including expensive material components for spells, is still described as if price measured in gold pieces were an inherent quality... but permanent magic items are way more valuable than that, like even putting a price in gold on them is ridiculous, okay? ... Well, yeah, that does mean that even a lot of minor royalty would prize something like... Um, well. I suppose that substantial wealth, huge tracts of land (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YiPC91QUk), and/or significant political influence would help your character's goals a lot more than +1 to hit, but, look, I hadn't quite planned for..."

This point of view annoys me. You know what else isn't optimized for achieving life goals? Spending 100 million dollars on a painting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_paintings), but here we are.

[Abithrios]

King: Oh great adventurers, will you save my people from the infernal invasion that threatens our world?

3.5: Sure, I can take care of that, but first, let me take a selfie go to the mall. Any reward you can offer would be nice, but my only real demand is looting rights on the monsters we slay.

5e: I don't know... There are an awful lot of them... Plus the last time we worked for you, you gave us all so much of that weird shiny yellow metal. It was super heavy and we couldn't find any use for it, so we threw it in a ditch next to where Grok the Mighty, here, threw his ancestral axe when he found a magic one and where he threw the magic one when we found a better one--you would think someone would want those, but nobody offered a price...

[Safety Sword]

.... whores flow!

You're going to the wrong places.

[Nargrakhan]

Like no one can afford them, there's no market for them. Well, yeah, other stuff, including expensive material components for spells, is still described as if price measured in gold pieces were an inherent quality... but permanent magic items are way more valuable than that, like even putting a price in gold on them is ridiculous, okay?


...when he found a magic one and where he threw the magic one when we found a better one--you would think someone would want those, but nobody offered a price...

Me thinks people are forgetting what priceless means. In glorious economics, it doesn't mean it's so valuable it won't have a price tag, it means it's so valuable that no high price is considered too extreme to own it. That +1 Greatsword, of which perhaps only a dozen in the world exist, is worth whatever the seller deems an equivalent exchange to be. The +1 Greatsword is priceless... until someone offers an amount insane enough and/or makes the owner in a position desperate enough, to actually make the sale worth the loss of it.

So a PC could most certainly find buyers if they're dumb enough to sell it at a low price... and an NPC who owns one, could most certainly be convinced to sell it if the PC's offered something of insane equivalent or greater value. Maybe the king would consider giving up the Ancestral +1 Greatsword of the Kingdom™ if they rescued his daughter and half the realm from the Evil Dragonlord™ from certain destruction... or maybe even those deeds aren't enough, and the king would rather watch her die and the nation fall before losing it, because the sword is just that important.

Magic items are now worth a legendary deed to acquire... not just found in some random gold pile or on the shelf of Witches-R-US™.

[JAL_1138]

Me thinks people are forgetting what priceless means. In glorious economics, it doesn't mean it's so valuable it won't have a price tag, it means it's so valuable that no high price is considered too extreme to own it. That +1 Greatsword, of which perhaps only a dozen in the world exist, is worth whatever the seller deems an equivalent exchange to be. The +1 Greatsword is priceless... until someone offers an amount insane enough and/or makes the owner in a position desperate enough, to actually make the sale worth the loss of it.
.

Exactly, "priceless" means there just aren't enough for there to be a known and agreed-upon market value. If nobody but adventurers sees the point in a shiny sword that seems a little better-balanced, but not that much more special than a bog-standard arming-sword, nobody's going to shell out for it. Most people aren't going to know what the heck's so much better about a magic sword, because most people aren't facing monsters with damage resistance or immunity every day. "But this is a magic sword!" "According to you, and anyway, so what? What does that do? I can get a perfectly good longsword for fifteen gold from the blacksmith down the street that'll cut off heads just fine; I'm not giving you 10,000 gold for that thing."

You could also turn a magic-item auction into a minor encounter, with the players bidding against a minor noble interested in the collector's value, or against a rival team of adventurers.

[Galen]

Reminds of Antique Roadshow, where 'experts' constantly make outlandish appraisals.

"The old cabinet is worth $10,000!!"
"Really?"
"Yes. I swear it is. Now, the only problem is to find someone who will pay $10,000 for it...."

[Seerus]

3.5e: I have a ring of protection +5 that stacks with my amulet of natural armor +5, my +5 fullplate armor, and my +5 steel shield.

5e: My armor sets my AC to a specified number. What is this stacking you speak of? It is unheard of in my world.

[Sartharina]

Magic items are now worth a legendary deed to acquire... not just found in some random gold pile or on the shelf of Witches-R-US™.Actually, you might be able to find them in random gold piles. However - you get what you can sell it for. Maybe you can buy a magic item for 300 gold pieces, while in another kingdom it'll cost 5,000. Or you might just sell it for 50 GP.

[T.G. Oskar]

3.5e: I have a ring of protection +5 that stacks with my amulet of natural armor +5, my +5 fullplate armor, and my +5 steel shield.

5e: My armor sets my AC to a specified number. What is this stacking you speak of? It is unheard of in my world.

Actually, shield AC bonus stacks with armor. That's the easiest bonus to stack: with shield, AC is armor +2. The Defense fighting style also stacks, for a further +1. The Ring of Protection ALSO happens to stack.

So it'd be more like:
3.5: I have a Ring of Protection +5 that stacks with my Amulet of Natural Armor +5, my +5 Full Plate armor and my +5 Steel Shield. I also have a Parrying weapon that gives me +1 insight bonus to AC, and...
5e: I have a Ring of Protection that stacks with...uh, my shield and armor? And add +1 because of Defense... Yup, that's it.

And then...
3.5: Why does I get hit? I have an AC of 41! Darn touch attacks!
5e: No wonder I got hit! The blasted kobolds tagged and had the advantage on their attacks!

[Galen]

5e: I have a Ring of Protection that stacks with...uh, my shield and armor? And add +1 because of Defense... Yup, that's it.
To truly break a bad habit, you need to end it with ... "oh well, still good enough for a decent chance to avoid getting hit".

[JoeJ]

3.5: DM: You want to jump up on the boulder and do a flip over the bugbear to gain a better position? Um... okay, let me see if I can find what feats you need. What book is that in again? That counts as moving, too, so you won't get to full attack. Okay, now hand me that other book other there. Are you really sure you want to try this?

5e: DM: You want to jump up on the boulder and do a flip over the bugbear to gain a better position? That sounds pretty hard, so I guess a DC of 20 should be about right. Roll your Acrobatics. If you make it, I'll let you have advantage on your first attack. If you miss, you'll fall prone.

[MadGrady]

3.5: DM: You want to jump up on the boulder and do a flip over the bugbear to gain a better position? Um... okay, let me see if I can find what feats you need. What book is that in again? That counts as moving, too, so you won't get to full attack. Okay, now hand me that other book other there. Are you really sure you want to try this?

5e: DM: You want to jump up on the boulder and do a flip over the bugbear to gain a better position? That sounds pretty hard, so I guess a DC of 20 should be about right. Roll your Acrobatics. If you make it, I'll let you have advantage on your first attack. If you miss, you'll fall prone.

This is by far the best example on this thread of why I fell in love with this edition. All problems or gripes aside, the system really encourages play like this and has made for some really fun encounters so far that ran so much smoother than they would have in 3.X

[MaxWilson]

This is by far the best example on this thread of why I fell in love with this edition. All problems or gripes aside, the system really encourages play like this and has made for some really fun encounters so far that ran so much smoother than they would have in 3.X

But... you should never take that deal from the DM, except maybe if you are a 20th level bard with Acrobatics Expertise. At least he's telling you in advance what the consequences would be, but risking prone (and apparently, loss of all attacks that round, although it's not explicit) in order to get advantage on one attack, based on a DC 20 check... you're just flat-out better off making a regular attack.

[pwykersotz]

But... you should never take that deal from the DM, except maybe if you are a 20th level bard with Acrobatics Expertise. At least he's telling you in advance what the consequences would be, but risking prone (and apparently, loss of all attacks that round, although it's not explicit) in order to get advantage on one attack, based on a DC 20 check... you're just flat-out better off making a regular attack.

Not necessarily true. If you fall prone and haven't used all your movement, just stand up again and attack normally. Alternately, hold your shortsword up to a sensitive location on the bugbear and Intimidate.

[MadGrady]

Not necessarily true. If you fall prone and haven't used all your movement, just stand up again and attack normally. Alternately, hold your shortsword up to a sensitive location on the bugbear and Intimidate.

Since there are no longer AoOs from standing up, it's really not that bad a deal - plus a DM has a really good reason to go ahead and add advantage from inspiration to that check as well.

[JoeJ]

But... you should never take that deal from the DM, except maybe if you are a 20th level bard with Acrobatics Expertise. At least he's telling you in advance what the consequences would be, but risking prone (and apparently, loss of all attacks that round, although it's not explicit) in order to get advantage on one attack, based on a DC 20 check... you're just flat-out better off making a regular attack.

It depends entirely on the situation. What is your Acrobatics bonus? How badly do you need to hit that bugbear this round, and how likely are you to hit it without advantage? If you do fall prone, do you have enough movement to get back up this round? Does it look like the bugbear will attack you or does it have other priorities? How much of a hit can you take without dying? Do you have inspiration that you can spend on the ability check? (Why would someone with inspiration try a flashy maneuver instead of just using it directly? Perhaps because the character is a flashy daredevil, and very likely to get that inspiration back right away for role playing their personality.)

[Galen]

But... you should never take that deal from the DM ...There's no deal to be taken. The player announced his action: "jump up on the boulder and do a flip over the bugbear to gain a better position". The DM is now adjudicating it.

If you think your character is very likely to fail a DC 20 Acrobatics checks, don't try things that appear to require a very high skill in Acrobatics. Jumping up on the boulder and do a flip over the bugbear to gain a better position, for example.

[McBars]

But... you should never take that deal from the DM, except maybe if you are a 20th level bard with Acrobatics Expertise. At least he's telling you in advance what the consequences would be, but risking prone (and apparently, loss of all attacks that round, although it's not explicit) in order to get advantage on one attack, based on a DC 20 check... you're just flat-out better off making a regular attack.

What "deal?" The player is attempting something outstanding, albeit difficult, and the DM is adjudicating. Regular attacks are boring compared to the proposed maneuver; perhaps on average a regular attack is superior with respect to the average damage per action, but it's far from "Flat-out better" when viewed in other contexts.

[MaxWilson]

It depends entirely on the situation. What is your Acrobatics bonus? How badly do you need to hit that bugbear this round, and how likely are you to hit it without advantage?

If you can just ignore a failed attempt, stand up from being prone, and attack as normal, then yes, you might as well try the backflip because it costs you nothing. The way I as a player heard your DM's words, though, it meant, "You'll fall prone and lose at least one attack."

In that case, you should take the deal only if the chance of succeeding on the DC 20 Acrobatics check + attack with advantage is greater than the chance of succeeding on the attack without advantage. This will almost never be true unless, as noted, you have Expertise in Acrobatics. For example, if you're trying to hit a bugbear with AC 16, and you're an 8th level character with Acrobatics and DX 18, your to-hit bonus is +7. You'll hit the bugbear 55% of the time. In order for the deal to be advantageous, my chance of succeeding on the Acrobatics check and the attack with advantage has to exceed 55%. With advantage, my attack would succeed 79.75% of the time, so I need at least a 69% chance of succeeding on my Acrobatics check or I might as well not even bother. Therefore, I should attempt the jump-attack only if my Acrobatics skill is +13 or better. This is only possible for Rogues and Bards with Acrobatics Expertise.

Again, if the penalty for failing is simply "fall prone, use your movement to get back up, and attack normally instead," that changes the equation--if there's no cost, you might as well attempt fancy tricks. But as a player, that's not how I would have read your DM's words. Would you?

[McBars]

Again, if the penalty for failing is simply "fall prone, use your movement to get back up, and attack normally instead," that changes the equation--if there's no cost, you might as well attempt fancy tricks. But as a player, that's not how I would have read your DM's words. Would you?

If falling prone is the only penalty, that is indeed all you need to do; spend some movement, stand up, savage the bugbear.

[Z3ro]

With advantage, my attack would succeed 79.75% of the time, so I need at least a 69% chance of succeeding on my Acrobatics check or I might as well not even bother.

I'd bother, even with lower odds, because it would look cool. But that's just me.

[MadGrady]

I was just under the impression that this was a role-playing game, and that such a maneuver might theoretically be something your proposed character might actually try, regardless (sometimes) of the difficulty of said maneuver.

If we are talking about a game where the only objective is to win, and not play fantastic characters, then by all means, do the boring regular attack

[MaxWilson]

I was just under the impression that this was a role-playing game, and that such a maneuver might theoretically be something your proposed character might actually try, regardless (sometimes) of the difficulty of said maneuver.

If we are talking about a game where the only objective is to win, and not play fantastic characters, then by all means, do the boring regular attack

YMMV. I tend to role-play characters who are more interested in staying alive than looking flashy. There are exceptions, but I honestly don't think I'm very good at playing the Bard-type flashy role.

My ideal combat is one with no risk and no excitement--just be the guy who gets there "the firstest with the mostest." If it gets exciting that means you cut the margin too close or somebody messed up. In practice, you never actually get those ideal combats but it's an ideal that I strive towards.

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.

[Theodoxus]

YMMV. I tend to role-play characters who are more interested in staying alive than looking flashy. There are exceptions, but I honestly don't think I'm very good at playing the Bard-type flashy role.

My ideal combat is one with no risk and no excitement--just be the guy who gets there "the firstest with the mostest." If it gets exciting that means you cut the margin too close or somebody messed up. In practice, you never actually get those ideal combats but it's an ideal that I strive towards.

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.

This guy? This is the guy the champion was made for. No flash, no glory, just get in, do your job and make your foes cry dead

[Shadow]

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.

And plenty of gamers ignore both in favor of describing and playing out fantastical and thoroughly fun scenarios.
YMMV

[MaxWilson]

This guy? This is the guy the champion was made for. No flash, no glory, just get in, do your job and make your foes cry dead

Well, not really. The Champion isn't very good at making things boring. All of his abilities are probabilistic and tactical, not strategic. I'm thinking more like "use Sending and Transport Via Plants to drop 50 hobgoblin troops right on top of the invading Drow squad." Sure, you have to negotiate with the hobgoblins in advance, but aside from the social aspect (ensuring the hobgoblins won't backstab you), it isn't a probabilistic approach at all, and Champions have no advantage there.

[JoeJ]

If you can just ignore a failed attempt, stand up from being prone, and attack as normal, then yes, you might as well try the backflip because it costs you nothing. The way I as a player heard your DM's words, though, it meant, "You'll fall prone and lose at least one attack."

In that case, you should take the deal only if the chance of succeeding on the DC 20 Acrobatics check + attack with advantage is greater than the chance of succeeding on the attack without advantage. This will almost never be true unless, as noted, you have Expertise in Acrobatics. For example, if you're trying to hit a bugbear with AC 16, and you're an 8th level character with Acrobatics and DX 18, your to-hit bonus is +7. You'll hit the bugbear 55% of the time. In order for the deal to be advantageous, my chance of succeeding on the Acrobatics check and the attack with advantage has to exceed 55%. With advantage, my attack would succeed 79.75% of the time, so I need at least a 69% chance of succeeding on my Acrobatics check or I might as well not even bother. Therefore, I should attempt the jump-attack only if my Acrobatics skill is +13 or better. This is only possible for Rogues and Bards with Acrobatics Expertise.

Again, if the penalty for failing is simply "fall prone, use your movement to get back up, and attack normally instead," that changes the equation--if there's no cost, you might as well attempt fancy tricks. But as a player, that's not how I would have read your DM's words. Would you?

I apologize if you misunderstood. When I DM, I'm perfectly happy to clarify anything a player is unsure of. I love it when players pull off cool stunts, but I certainly wouldn't feel offended if you looked at the odds and decided not to risk it. In fact, that's what I'd expect you to do if you were playing a character who is generally cautious. I know that not everybody wants their character to jump around like Legolas.

On the falling prone, I was not actually thinking of the character losing their attack. However, if they don't have enough movement left to get up, they'd be making their attack with disadvantage and the bugbear will have advantage if it attacks on its turn.

My point, however, was not that this is a good deal or a bad one (as I said, it depends on the situation). The point is that when I thought of this example it took me no more than 3 seconds to decide how it could be adjudicated.

[MaxWilson]

My point, however, was not that this is a good deal or a bad one (as I said, it depends on the situation). The point is that when I thought of this example it took me no more than 3 seconds to decide how it could be adjudicated.

Fair enough. I apologize for the tangent.

[Shadow]

My point, however, was not that this is a good deal or a bad one (as I said, it depends on the situation). The point is that when I thought of this example it took me no more than 3 seconds to decide how it could be adjudicated.

And this is the simple beauty of "make rulings, not rules" that you and I love. Others disagree and would rather scour rulebooks looking for the exact right answer as mandated by the D&D gods.

[JoeJ]

Fair enough. I apologize for the tangent.

No need. It's my responsibility to be clear about what I'm trying to say.

[IAmTehDave]

And this is the simple beauty of "make rulings, not rules" that you and I love. Others disagree and would rather scour rulebooks looking for the exact right answer as mandated by the D&D gods.

3.5 DM, as seemingly encouraged by the DMG (According to various online discussion forums): Well, you don't have the obscure feat from this splatbook that says you can do that, so you can't do that. Would have been awesome though.

5e DM (As encouraged by the DMG/FreeMG): Your character sheet doesn't explicitly say you can do that, but it sounds awesome. Roll..hmm...[Ability(Skill)] to see if you pull it off.

[Devils_Advocate]

This point of view annoys me. You know what else isn't optimized for achieving life goals? Spending 100 million dollars on a painting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_paintings), but here we are.
I don't follow. If you spend 100 million dollars on a painting, then presumably you don't need that money in order to buy something else that you want even more. Because if you did... then you'd buy the other thing that you want more instead of the painting. If not, then I don't know what it even means to want one thing more than another thing. Like, preferring Option A to Option B means picking Option A over Option B if you have to choose between the two. That's, um... that's not a conclusion I'm arguing for, that's seriously me explaining what I mean by the word "prefer".


Maybe the king would consider giving up the Ancestral +1 Greatsword of the Kingdom™ if they rescued his daughter and half the realm from the Evil Dragonlord™ from certain destruction... or maybe even those deeds aren't enough, and the king would rather watch her die and the nation fall before losing it, because the sword is just that important.
A +1 greatsword may be a very high quality weapon that is quite good at hurting things, but it isn't better at hurting things than, say, a squad of soldiers, is it?

I ask because, if it isn't, then it seems that its exceptional value comes more from its rarity than it practical usefulness as a tool. In which case it seems odd to treat it as being in a separate category from treasure, since it is economically speaking just some really choice treasure. Like, I would expect the Ridiculously Coveted Sword™ to be kept in a heavily guarded vault and never actually used at least the vast majority of the time, because what advantage it grants in combat is insufficient to risk such a precious item being stolen or destroyed.


Magic items are now worth a legendary deed to acquire... not just found in some random gold pile or on the shelf of Witches-R-US™.
But -- stay with me here -- if magic items now require legendary deeds to acquire and can't simply be obtained through the expenditure of mere money (Feh!), then -- and this certainly makes sense, mind you -- legendary deeds can't be obtained through the expenditure of mere money either; because otherwise you could pay people to do the legendary deeds for you in order to get the magic items.

Which means that, beyond some level, it is actually entirely in-character for the party of player characters to say "Yeah, uh, a lot of shiny yellow metal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorthlessYellowRocks) ain't gonna cut it for this job, kingsy." Like, it has seriously been established that that is how characters capable of performing certain deeds respond to an offer of mere gold (Feh!) in exchange for their services in this setting. And, hey, it's not like there aren't rewards beyond treasure that a king can offer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardHeroReward). Magic items simply serve as a sort of super-treasure that can take the place of non-treasure rewards.

Of course, if they're really playing in-character, the PCs will regard their own magic items as having value mostly for their potential to entice other powerful individuals to do really important stuff for them. In short, the primary function of magic items is to serve as a currency in the trade of favors between the powerful.

There's probably a comfortable living to be made as an adviser to a high-level adventurer, now that I think about it. "The first thing you want to do is to settle any outstanding debts. Next, you'll want to be granted your own kingdom; this is far more efficient than being a vassal. The remainder of your portfolio should be divided between..."

[RedMage125]

The HP/level fix is actually quite brilliant, and I might just steal that for my own games. I was going to say that all HP/level is 3/4 HD (instead of the 1/2 HD +1 of 5e's "standard" level up HP) but this adds a die roll, which I know from experience can be satisfying.

That's also what I do. Players get 1 chance to roll for hit points when they level. If they fail to get "1/2HD +1", they can take that instead.

I did the same in 3.5e, but with the d4 HD classes, it meant they were only rolling for a 4. Oh well, I say. It's no fun to anyone to get one hit point when levelling.

[MunkeeGamer]

3.5 "Jesus Christ, I hate the fluff for this and that too. Ugh, the mechanics for this are close to what I'm looking for but I don't know... I'm just gonna homebrew this all to hell and back."

5 "Wow, this all looks pretty good. I even like the fluff. The rules are even telling me to change it if I want to. I mean, I really like it how it is right now! I don't even NEED to homebrew :D"

[Gnomes2169]

3.5: If I want to homebrew a somewhat-viable class, I have to make at least 30 abilities for it that are ambiguous enough to give me a tiny bit of wiggle room, are solid enough to be indisputable (massive) advantages, and at least 75% of them have to be unique or it will be called out as "Just another X clone." And god help me if I use a pre-existing system such as maneuvers or psionics...

5e: Wait... How easy is homebrewing?

[Seppo87]

help, my players are producing blue meth

Breaking Bad Habits

[mr_odd]

That's also what I do. Players get 1 chance to roll for hit points when they level. If they fail to get "1/2HD +1", they can take that instead.

I did the same in 3.5e, but with the d4 HD classes, it meant they were only rolling for a 4. Oh well, I say. It's no fun to anyone to get one hit point when levelling.

My system for advancing hit points is "Average of Hit Die - 2, then roll for the rest." For example, a bar bar would roll a D7 (D8, reroll on 8) and then add 5. Sure, it means the party has increased hit points compared to the average, but they still get to roll (which is fun) and there is still a chance of getting below the average without it being detrimental to the character.

[Shadow]

What I do for HP is make the players roll.
If they roll less than average, they drop one die step and reroll.
If they still roll less than average, they get the average of the lowered die, rounded down.
So the minimum that anyone can get is average -2, but it's pretty rare for the players to roll less than average twice in a row multiple times. It usually ends up where they get average +1 or 2 most of the time.

Everyone seems happy with this system.

[themaque]

What I do for HP is make the players roll.
If they roll less than average, they drop one die step and reroll.
If they still roll less than average, they get the average of the lowered die, rounded down.
So the minimum that anyone can get is average -2, but it's pretty rare for the players to roll less than average twice in a row multiple times. It usually ends up where they get average +1 or 2 most of the time.

Everyone seems happy with this system.

I have everyone roll a d4. You then add the difference for your standard HD.

So fighters roll d4+6 and wizards roll d4+2.

Everyone gets a good amount of hit points with just a little variety to keep things interesting.