[5e] Gish Bard/Warlock - Need help

[BardlyScholar]

Hey guys,

I am wanting to make a melee based Bard with a few levels in warlock. The campaign i'm in won't go past lvl 14-15 so I'm not too worried about losing the Bard's lvl 9 spells. With that in mind, anyone know what build would be good? It's a two person campaign and the other character is a rogue. The DM may toss in a few npc's from time to time to join us but for the most part it'll just be the two of us.

I'm not sure how many warlock levels to take, whether I should go 4 for the feat, go 2 for a higher bard spell casting level, or 3 for the pact ability and on top of that, if I go valor bard, will the blade pact be redundant?

Any ideas or build suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

[Madfellow]

You probably won't need more than two levels of Warlock. Agonizing Blast is really all you need from that class.

[BardlyScholar]

You probably won't need more than two levels of Warlock. Agonizing Blast is really all you need from that class.

Would taking a 3rd level for Pact of Tome be worth it to get the Shillelagh and Guidance cantrips?

Also if I do go for a pact, with a variant human race to get Warcasting at level 1, would taking 4 warlock to get Polearm Master for some lockdown at 5 be better than waiting til lvl 7 to get it with 4 bard?

[Madfellow]

Would taking a 3rd level for Pact of Tome be worth it to get the Shillelagh and Guidance cantrips?

Also if I do go for a pact, with a variant human race to get Warcasting at level 1, would taking 4 warlock to get Polearm Master for some lockdown at 5 be better than waiting til lvl 7 to get it with 4 bard?

Don't have my book at the moment, so I can't say for sure about the spells, but snagging those feats early on does sound like a good idea.

[Callin]

Blade Pact wont stack with the Valor Bard extra attack. Since you asked.

Reading that and the feats you are thinking about I take it you want to go melee with this character?

[odigity]

Blade Pact wont stack with the Valor Bard extra attack. Since you asked.

That's true, and important to remember, but I don't know if the poster was suggesting it. That would require level 5 (if you interepret invocations as being based on Warlock level), and so far in this thread they have only suggested going as high as level 4.

[Yagyujubei]

That's true, and important to remember, but I don't know if the poster was suggesting it. That would require level 5 (if you interepret invocations as being based on Warlock level), and so far in this thread they have only suggested going as high as level 4.

however, if youre going for max damage taking blade pact so that you can add your CHA modifier to your attacks is worth noting and possibly worth the dip assuming your DM allows you to take invocations based on PC level rather than warlock level.

EDIT: and I'm AFB but how does battle caster or whatever its called work on bard? do you forfeit your second attack in order to cast a spell, then taking lifedrinker might be a workaround enabling you to attack twice and still cast, but I don't remember the exact ruling.

[MaxWilson]

EDIT: and I'm AFB but how does battle caster or whatever its called work on bard? do you forfeit your second attack in order to cast a spell, then taking lifedrinker might be a workaround enabling you to attack twice and still cast, but I don't remember the exact ruling.

You get to use your bonus action to make one weapon attack when you cast a bard spell. This might be a reason to get Eldritch Blast via Magical Secrets (which makes EB a bard spell) rather than Warlock, so that you can Eldritch Blast + Weapon Attack in the same turn.

-Max

[Shadow]

Yeah, what Max said.
Except that it won't matter, because he expects the campaign to end at 14 or 15, and that's a level 14 Valor Bard ablity. With a Warlock splash, you'll never see it happen, so Battle Magic is effectively off the table.
And the whole Cha to weapon bit is 12th level (which has been confirmed as Warlock levels by intention).

Honestly, I don't see what Warlock does for this character.
The rogue is going to need someone in melee. That's going to be you. That means you probably don't want to slow your Valor stuff by taking levels in a class that isn't really going to help you at all.
If there were more people in the party to help you out, sure. But with just the two of you it doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
You need casting/healing/melee. Bard, Cleric and Druid are the best options. If you want a multiclass of some sort, a level or two of Monk on a Cleric or Druid seems like a better idea for this, and honestly I think both Cleric and Druid would be better choices than Bard for a twosome with a Rogue whether you multiclass or not.

[Ashrym]

Bard, Cleric and Druid are the best options. If you want a multiclass of some sort, a level or two of Monk on a Cleric or Druid seems like a better idea for this, and honestly I think both Cleric and Druid would be better choices than Bard for a twosome with a Rogue whether you multiclass or not.

I disagree because the bard can be built for healing and song of rest adds a little. The bard can supply invisibility or enhance ability to both in a 3rd level slot while also taking expertise in stealth for better avoidance or surprise with the rogue. Cleric and druid have different advantages but not necessarily better, in my opinion. I'm curious of the subclass of rogue.

@the OP: As mentioned, blade pact extra attack and valor extra attack don't stack. If you want to multiclass and build melee your best bet is enough warlock levels and tome pact to open up and acquire book of ancient secrets for better ritual casting. I would more likely just take valor bard all the way like Shadow suggests if you want a melee based bard.

[Shadow]

I disagree because the bard can be built for healing and song of rest adds a little. The bard can supply invisibility or enhance ability to both in a 3rd level slot while also taking expertise in stealth for better avoidance or surprise with the rogue. Cleric and druid have different advantages but not necessarily better, in my opinion. I'm curious of the subclass of rogue.

Trickery cleric does much of the same (minus expertise) while being a much more versatile caster. Pass without trace is arguably just as good as invisibility in most cases. Grabbing stealth proficiency via background makes it completely viable, and the more versatile casting makes it superior in my opinion.
Moon druid offers a much better meat shield for the rogue and far better offense than bard, while also being a better nuker. It lacks much of the control that the cleric or bard has, but the increased offense and defense make up for that, especially with a rogue duo.
Both also get enhance ability and pass without trace as well.
One level of monk gives a defensive boost to AC equal to your casting stat mod, a bonus attack (immediately) to make up for the loss of extra attack (at 6th or 7th level), and the ability to use any simple weapon with Dex like the versatile spear/staff (not for use with moon druid, but would be great on the cleric).

I really think that a multiclass bard is the worst healer choice in this particular situation. The cleric and druid do everything that's needed better than the bard does without stepping on the rogue's toes like the bard would, and with only two players that will be extremely valuable.

I really think that a monk 1 / trickery cleric + (divine ninja style) will be a better choice than a warlock / bard for this duo. And if the DM uses the group check rules (especially for stealth) then this is even better for sneaking around than the bard's expertise would be.
If it's just the two of them, the rogue would get advantage on his (likely expertise boosted) stealth roll. If they have an NPC with them, then the NPC gets it instead and they still can probably sneak well.

[Ashrym]

Trickery cleric does much of the same (minus expertise) while being a much more versatile caster. Pass without trace is arguably just as good as invisibility in most cases. Grabbing stealth proficiency via background makes it completely viable, and the more versatile casting makes it superior in my opinion.
Moon druid offers a much better meat shield for the rogue and far better offense than bard, while also being a better nuker. It lacks much of the control that the cleric or bard has, but the increased offense and defense make up for that, especially with a rogue duo.
Both also get enhance ability and pass without trace as well.
One level of monk gives a defensive boost to AC equal to your casting stat mod, a bonus attack (immediately) to make up for the loss of extra attack (at 6th or 7th level), and the ability to use any simple weapon with Dex like the versatile spear/staff (not for use with moon druid, but would be great on the cleric).

I really think that a multiclass bard is the worst healer choice in this particular situation. The cleric and druid do everything that's needed better than the bard does without stepping on the rogue's toes like the bard would, and with only two players that will be extremely valuable.

I really think that a monk 1 / trickery cleric + (divine ninja style) will be a better choice than a warlock / bard for this duo. And if the DM uses the group check rules (especially for stealth) then this is even better for sneaking around than the bard's expertise would be.
If it's just the two of them, the rogue would get advantage on his (likely expertise boosted) stealth roll. If they have an NPC with them, then the NPC gets it instead and they still can probably sneak well.

Pass without trace is good but it still doesn't grant concealment out in open spaces, which is the point of invisibility. Invisibility can be added with the cleric or the druid using the right domain (trickery) or circle (grassland) easily enough but that forces a lot more choices and still doesn't allow for expertise in stealth to go with the check required. Pass without trace on a druid while an arcane trickster rogue covers invisibility (both are concentration) does a nice job but we don't know more about the rogue choices being made.

Rogues don't actually need a meat shield because DEX in light armor can be similar AC, evasion, uncanny dodge, and cunning action are better defense than the moon druid's stock beast AC's and hit point pool that runs out because we're not getting to high enough levels for wildshape at will or for spell casting in beast form. Beast form is twice per short rest and the DMG guidelines state 2 short rests per day so 6 times per day is pretty good, but not actually casting spells in form and nothing really outstanding other than the higher CR beasts that don't scale so well doen't stand out. What rogues need is someone to be within 5ft of their target to make sneak attack easy.

The character was requested as a melee and not a blaster, but it's not hard to have 1 or 2 blasty spells on a bard. Low levels have a couple, higher levels can just add one via secrets. Bards do more of their damage manipulating the combat via their spells with debuffs or buffs or some more tactical options. Dissonant whispers would give the rogue an opportunity attack on the bard's turn and an additional sneak attack that round, do it's own spell damage, and then give the bard an opportunity attack on the same turn. That's very strong and improves with the rogue's sneak attack damage and bard's save DC while still only using a first level slot. Any nuke spell a druid has can be on the bard list and the bard will cast just as many of them as the moon druid.

Druids don't have better spells for healing than a bard does but the bard can add the better spells a cleric has, and clerics don't have better healing either in that case unless they are life clerics. The player cannot be a life cleric and a trickster cleric at the same time. The bard can actually MC one level of life cleric, on the other hand, for the bonus and keep the bard spell options available. Valor bards do fall behind clerics for in combat healing but heroism in a 2nd level slot covers both bard and the rogue for more temp hp damage mitigation than area spells clerics have (that are rather useless in such a small group anyway) missing from the bard or druid healing lists. Plus song of rest for additional healing each twice per day on those short rests by spending HD.

The bard doesn't step on the rogues toes either. Both being good at skills is complementary in many skills, such as stealth and perception, but the don't need to share proficiencies in other skills at all, and the rogue has better guaranteed checks on proficient skills (reliable talent) while bards have a bonus to a wider variety of skills (jack-of-all-trades). Since the valor bard cannot use inspiration on himself that all goes to the rogue to be used to make a hit (and sneak attack) if it would miss, or a skill check, or a save bonus, or a damage bonus, or a general ability check (like initiative), or an AC bonus. Bards are enhancing rogues and not necessarily competing with them.

Group checks won't be better just because they are being used with one good check and one low to mediocre check. 2 good checks work better in the event one does have a bad roll. In a group check at least half the group needs to succeed for the group to succeed. The rogue does well in a 2 person situation for this but if he rolls poorly then we're relying on the other character, which is nice to have another character good with such a check. That way if either succeeds the group succeeds.

TBH, I wouldn't multiclass with a warlock for a melee build based on the expected levels. I would go pure or take 1 cleric level. The only thing I see really worth taking from warlock on the build is the tome warlocks ability to add a ritual book, and that takes more levels than I would be comfortable with.

Don't sell the bard short though. First level spells to take: cure wounds or healing word (I prefer this as a swift spell but it's worth swapping out later), heroism, dissonant whispers, and thunderwave. That gives good spell selection for what's going to be a melee build. Polymorph will cover wildshape if desired, later on, and often enough in a day given bard spell progression to do similar things to the moon druid.

[kalebr]

I'm playing a dex based valor bard in a campaign with 2h War Domain cleric, ranged Assassin Rogue, Warlock & Wizard.

I'm considering a few levels of Warlock to boost tanky-ness through Shillelagh, Mirror Image, Arms of Hadar & Faerie Fire on short rest. Taking Shield Master + expertise in athletics to help with control and thinking War Caster with Eldritch Blast would be a nice boost to AoO. Fey Presence gives me another control element on short rest.

I feel like Warlock improves survivability & utility over the other class options.

[Shadow]

Group checks won't be better just because they are being used with one good check and one low to mediocre check. 2 good checks work better in the event one does have a bad roll. In a group check at least half the group needs to succeed for the group to succeed. The rogue does well in a 2 person situation for this but if he rolls poorly then we're relying on the other character, which is nice to have another character good with such a check. That way if either succeeds the group succeeds.

Don't sell the bard short though. First level spells to take: cure wounds or healing word (I prefer this as a swift spell but it's worth swapping out later), heroism, dissonant whispers, and thunderwave. That gives good spell selection for what's going to be a melee build. Polymorph will cover wildshape if desired, later on, and often enough in a day given bard spell progression to do similar things to the moon druid.

You're assuming that the cleric in question is not proficient in stealth. I'm assuming that a trickery cleric will have proficiency in stealth from a background. This makes both of them decent sneakers. They ability to grant advantage to someone else's roll will make them all but undetactable in a duo using group checks, keeps them sneaky if those rules aren't used, and still grants them a very good chance of sneaking around with one of the NPCs they may be accompanied by if those rules aren't used (and makes them all but undetectable if they are used).

I'm not selling the bard short. I understand exactly what a bard brings to the table. I just think that a trickery cleric would be better for this duo. With a one level monk splash, he has approximately the same defenses, much more versatile casting, better offense in the early levels, approximately the same offense in the low-to-mid-levels, and arguably better offense in the mid-to-late levels.

Bards are great, but for this particular duo a monk 1 / trickery cleric will be a better match for a rogue.... and especially so if the rogue goes the arcane trickster route, because then the rogue and bard REALLY start to step on each others' toes.

[AgentPaper]

however, if youre going for max damage taking blade pact so that you can add your CHA modifier to your attacks is worth noting and possibly worth the dip assuming your DM allows you to take invocations based on PC level rather than warlock level.

EDIT: and I'm AFB but how does battle caster or whatever its called work on bard? do you forfeit your second attack in order to cast a spell, then taking lifedrinker might be a workaround enabling you to attack twice and still cast, but I don't remember the exact ruling.

You need to be a level 12 Warlock to pick up Lifedrinker, so it's not really relevant here.

[Ashrym]

You're assuming that the cleric in question is not proficient in stealth. I'm assuming that a trickery cleric will have proficiency in stealth from a background. This makes both of them decent sneakers. They ability to grant advantage to someone else's roll will make them all but undetactable in a duo using group checks, keeps them sneaky if those rules aren't used, and still grants them a very good chance of sneaking around with one of the NPCs they may be accompanied by if those rules aren't used (and makes them all but undetectable if they are used).

I'm not selling the bard short. I understand exactly what a bard brings to the table. I just think that a trickery cleric would be better for this duo. With a one level monk splash, he has approximately the same defenses, much more versatile casting, better offense in the early levels, approximately the same offense in the low-to-mid-levels, and arguably better offense in the mid-to-late levels.

Bards are great, but for this particular duo a monk 1 / trickery cleric will be a better match for a rogue.... and especially so if the rogue goes the arcane trickster route, because then the rogue and bard REALLY start to step on each others' toes.

I'm knowing the cleric doesn't have expertise and trickery domain doesn't have invisibility instead of assuming the cleric cannot have proficiency from the background. Invisibility is what creates the required conditions for stealth when those conditions are not there. The bard, druid, or any cleric can grant advantage on stealth to both at the same time using enhance ability in a 3rd level slot when invisibility is not needed, or any of the 3 (taking trickery) can have pass without trace become available. Granting advantage without the conditions required for stealth makes blessing of the trickster irrelevant at those times. It's also not better to give advantage than to add inspiration at medium levels and the advice given requires the rogue be an arcane trickster to complement the spells together for invisibility in the party.

Monk martial arts gives an unarmed attack if the monk uses a weapon so damage feats are more restricted than multiple attacks, and divine strikes can only be applied once per turn, so you are looking at a dual wielding DEX/WIS build (good for skills) to get the AC you mentioned. I'm not convinced that's going to out do the valor bard doing the same thing but with another attack on which to stack bonuses, which exceed 2d8 poison damage once.

Why do you think a rogue and bard step on each other's toes? They can complement each other and cover the strengths of each twice as fast in their similarities, and only collide if they intentionally don't work together. That's would be a player issue and not a class choice issue.

[Tenmujiin]

You need to be a level 12 Warlock to pick up Lifedrinker, so it's not really relevant here.

while this is true RAI, some people interpret RAW as being character level (it IS written ambiguously), allowing it is a bad idea since it allows a 3 level warlock dip get complete mele capabilities on a full caster.

[Shadow]

while this is true RAI, some people interpret RAW as being character level (it IS written ambiguously), allowing it is a bad idea since it allows a 3 level warlock dip get complete mele capabilities on a full caster.

If I were in a game where the DM allowed that garbage I'd play a Paladin 2 / Warlock 3 / Sorcerer or Bard 15 without a doubt.
1d8 +Str-or-Dex +Cha +smite spell +divine smite with extra attack for 1d8 +Str-or-Dex +Cha +divine smite.
Ridiculous.

[Gwendol]

It's hard to reconcile with the spell-slot dependent eldritch invocations though. Or do those also claim you can cast Polymorph using any warlock spell slot (1st level, for example)?

[Tenmujiin]

If I were in a game where the DM allowed that garbage I'd play a Paladin 2 / Warlock 3 / Sorcerer or Bard 15 without a doubt.
1d8 +Str-or-Dex +Cha +smite spell +divine smite with extra attack for 1d8 +Str-or-Dex +Cha +divine smite.
Ridiculous.

Yea, Its a load of BS, (think of if this took an extra paladin lv for oath of devotion and was a bard for Shillelagh, 1d8+(Str or dex)+3xCha+Smiting with +2xCha to hit, assuming I'm stacking my bonuses right) but with the way RAW is worded it could, technically, work (for a particularly obnoxious rules lawyer). I certainly wouldn't allow it.


Edit:

It's hard to reconcile with the spell-slot dependent eldritch invocations though. Or do those also claim you can cast Polymorph using any warlock spell slot (1st level, for example)?

No idea, the only people I've seen rule like this are people trying to optimise REALLY hard (Which is fine if your group likes to play like that) or people trying to prove 5e is broken by abusing poorly written mechanics.