OOTS #429 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Tharr]

The great strip reminded trust not your eyes.

[Amotis]

Buff him! Quick!

[mimicgogo]

Genius! Just cuz Belkar can't fight doesn't mean he's not himself. And that dragon is still amazing.

[Shadic]

Like, twenty minutes late, but totally better than having to wait all night!

Good comic.

[Eldritch Knight]

Absolute Sweetness!

[Fus.Weapon 1337]

Yay! Dagron!

[boxboy582]

Crap he has invisibility.......Crap he has Greater Invisibility.

Loved it Giant!!!

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Belkar being helpful? Wait, doesn't he keep the ring "hidden" on his "person" at all times?

[1337_master]

poor...whats-her-name

[Amotis]

Wait...Belkar's dagger went "slit."

Does that mean damage?

[Gergle]

Go Roy! Yeeeaaahh!

[Daedalus73]

I wonder what Xykon hit Haley with. It didn't seem to have much effect on her.

[arkwei]

Nice comic. But, just asking, what is that thing under Belkar's head in the second panel...?

I do hope Sangwaan is okay.

[Tharr]

The dragon had ride by attack then imporved grab flung her.

[baerdith]

Most Cool!! Of course I thought Roy's sword would have done a bit more damage than that. I mean it was like Xykon didn't even really notice....

[Hinton]

Go Roy! Take out his undead behind!

And poor Sangwaan. I suppose I should have seen it coming, but it's still a little sad to see her taken out.

Xykon: "..stay away from that guy with the green-hilted sword, whoever he is."

LOL! Pure gold, Giant.

Another great one.

[Mangangatha]

SAANGWAAN!

Damned, Giant, that strip was cool. Brilliant.

[Ryuuk]

Even if he kept the ring hidden in a rather improper place and used Roy to make a quick buck, this is probably as helpful as he's gonna get. Loved Xykon's dialog though.

[theKOT]

If only Roy's mother could see him now... "Don't put that ring on, You don't know where it's been!"

[Eldritch_Ent]

Thankfully he seemed to have tossed her "Into" the city. (That is, not into the seething gobbo masses.)

Now to find out what sort of Damage bonuses starmetal gets VS undead.

[jackal59]

Alright, I've got to stop reading the comic late enough at night that I wake the rest of the household up by laughing.

[Erloas]

Thor's nostrils... what a great saying.

You only unlive once.

[shaddy_24]

Curse you Giant! You killed Sangwaan! She was a useful high level NPC still!




The bet at the end was funny though...

I was sure he'd be to smart to try that jump




All is forgiven!:smallwink:

[malakim2099]

I think the best part (aside from Belkar) is that Xykon STILL can't remember who Greenhilt is.

[kpenguin]

Poor Sangwaan. Its nice to see Mr. Grand Larceny again though. I think him and Belkar are getting along nicely.

[Xi-1]

New OOTS release is the perfect way to end a Wednesday night, or so I figure. Gotta love Belkar's bet. But I gotta read again to see the things everyone else mentioned. I'm tired too.

[arkwei]

Wait, WHAT? Holy Aura is a 8th level spell... Man they are high-level, aren't they...

[Mirage_of_Deceit]

Okay so who else had flashbacks to the scene with Bahamut and Cloud in Advent children?

[The Giant]

Nice comic. But, just asking, what is that thing under Belkar's head in the second panel...?

A layering error. Fixed now.

[M._A._Foxfire]

::elan:: Wow, that is so cool...

Bards, eh?

Also, Haley's, like, cracking around the edges. That's not good.

[The Giant]

Wait, WHAT? Holy Aura is a 8th level spell... Man they are high-level, aren't they...

Crap, will you stop finding mistakes? I rushed to get this done somewhat on time.

I'm fixing that next.

EDIT: Changed to Spell Resistance due to my misremembering of Holy Aura's level.

[A_S]

Dang, this speaks of awesome comics to come. Gandalf and the Balrog, anybody?

[Vulion]

Go Roy! I didn't think I could anticipate another strip as much as the last but now I can't wait to see my favorite fighter kick some undead arse!

:roy:DIE! (AGAIN)! Classic.

Also, poor Sangwaan, I really liked that blind cleric.

[Alysar]

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/9018/sangwaanay5.gifSangwaan! Noo!

Our favorite seer is gone! *sniff*

[Amotis]

And why did Durkon waste a turn attempt? Or at least that's what I assume it is. He didn't say anything. Could just be trying to blind him with his shiny holy symbol.

[WarriorTribble]

Can someone explain how Belkar came to the conclusion Xykon was using greater invisibility?

[Eladrinstar]

Oh no, the dragon ate Sangwaan! I hope for her sake it doesn't have any stomach acid from when it was alive.

[Nightmarenny]

Can someone explain how Belkar came to the conclusion Xykon was using greather invisibility?
Normal invisibility can't attack things without losing it.

[Amotis]

Can someone explain how Belkar came to the conclusion Xykon was using greather invisibility?

He attacked and still remained invisible. Normal invisibility doesn't do that.

[Hoorex]

Did the fact that when he roared, Roy's speech bubble looked like Xykon's mean anything? Or was he just mad?

[Alysar]

Can someone explain how Belkar came to the conclusion Xykon was using greather invisibility?

I'm not sure of the rules, but I'm assuming because he stayed invisible after attacking.

[MReav]

Can someone explain how Belkar came to the conclusion Xykon was using greather invisibility?

He attacked without dispelling the Invisibility.

So, bets: what will Rich change the Holy Aura to?

Please do not read until after the correction is made if you are the author of this webcomic.

I vote Magic Circle vs Evil.

[Hinton]

Can someone explain how Belkar came to the conclusion Xykon was using greather invisibility?

I believe it's because attacking cancels invisibility. The dragon attacked Sangwaan, yet stayed invisible.

(D'oh; ninja'd)

[Amotis]

The next question is what good is freedom of movement.

Always a good buff spell. Arcane users are excellent at rendering the enemy helpless/hindered/useless. A common win-all spell.

edito - hahaha...five ninjas in a row. That's a record...

edito - six...

[brazilian]

Can someone explain how Belkar came to the conclusion Xykon was using greather invisibility?

Improved Invisibility actually, well simply because if it was a ordinay Invisibility spell it would fade after the attack

Edit:Ninja'd by waaaay to much people

[SPoD]

Did the fact that when he roared, Roy's speech bubble looked like Xykon's mean anything? Or was he just mad?

I think that's the undead dragon roaring.

[Alysar]

Oh no, the dragon ate Sangwaan! I hope for her sake it doesn't have any stomach acid from when it was alive.

It doesn't look like it ate her. Just grabbed her and tossed her away. I doubt she can survive the fall at any rate.

[Tharr]

The actions of Durkon what did he cast with the light ray.

[ref]

massive ninjapost, eh? hehe...

poor Sangwaan...

[arkwei]

Crap, will you stop finding mistakes? I rushed to get this done somewhat on time.

I'm fixing that next.

EDIT: Changed to Spell Resistance due to my misremembering of Holy Aura's level.

Oh. Anyhow, great comic, and I actually thought Holy Aura was 6th level, myself, until I checked d20 website. Glad I could help.

[SPoD]

The next question is what good is freedom of movement.

Liches have a permanently paralyzing touch that ignores spell resistance (because it is a supernatural ability). So, very useful for Roy.

ANd that's Durkon's Turn Undead, not a light ray. He's trying to turn the zombie dragon, probably because he has no idea how many HD it likely has.

[slayerx]

NOOO SANGWAAN!!!
Look liked she may have survived the intial bite, but could she survive the fall... not to mention asking which side she fell on...
Can't say i didn't see it coming... would had to be blind not to see it...
Awe i liked her, i thought she could have used a fanclub <_>


Moving on, Roy seems to really be getting a hang of that Starmetal of his... first time he used it when he actually wanted/needed to.
and I'm wondering... Did Belkar give him the real ring of jump +20... or was that a fake, and roy just believed him... kinda hard to tell from the bet. I mean, did the thief think it was a stupid idea to use the jump +20 to attack Xykon, or did he know the ring was fake and thought Roy wouldn't be stupid enough to believe Belkar and jump without testing the ring first... the fomer means it's a one time joke, while the later is gona lead to some pain for Roy and a whole lot of cursing...

Hmm...even though Belkar is evil, i don't think he would be evil enough to to THAT to Roy in a situation like this... maybe during their free time, but not now of all times

[MReav]

I don't know, if she's a cleric, she's got a meaty d8 for health and healing spells, and if she's a wizard she can cast feather fall (assuming she survived the bite).

If she's a psion (which I doubt, since she was told to cast spells as opposed to manifest the), then she's a bit more boned.

[skinkatlarge]

WTH did Haley get hit with?!?

[Alysar]

Nice to see both Elan and Belkar true to form.

:elan: Wow, that is so cool...

:belkar:My ring of jumping +20. Take it and get up all in his business......... Pay up.

[dan4ster]

Roy is Awesome!

[Aimbot]

I bet she didn't see that coming...

[Endeavourl]

/me feels a bit lost with having no familiarity with D&D besides what he's managed to glean from reading these comics :thog:

"...that guy with the green-hilted sword, whoever he is"

[Darkxarth]

Holy crap! That was awesome. I literally held my breath the entire comic. I can't wait to see Roy fighting Xykon. Of course, that means the next comic will probably be about the rest of the Order or Redcloak or something. Not that those wouldn't be cool, but still...

[Innis Cabal]

Sangwaan....she's dead jim

[Amotis]

The Star Wars title makes think Xykon is Vader in the war.

What? No, he's the Rebel dude. Look at what he's doing. Attacking an established position. Going in fast on a flying thing. Aiming for something. Gets distracted.

[MadHatter]

Excellent comic!

I do belive the Larcenist said he didn't think he would be dumb enough to do it simply because of the fact that this 1 guy is taking on a silver dragon zombie with a lich on it's back :P

[kpenguin]

Wait... there's no Improved Invisibility. There's invisibility sphere, invisbility, greater invisbility, but no imrpoved invisibility. I see a few possibilities to why Belkar said "improved invisibilty"
1) Rich made a mistake
2) Belkar doesn't know his spells
3) Its from some sourcebook I don't know

[Alysar]

NOOO SANGWAAN!!!
Look liked she may have survived the intial bite, but could she survive the fall... not to mention asking which side she fell on...
Can't say i didn't see it coming... would had to be blind not to see it...
Awe i liked her, i thought she could have used a fanclub <_>



So let it be said, so let it be done.

[Amotis]

Improved Invis. is a 3.0 term methinks/remembers.

*prepares to be simi'd*

[Innis Cabal]

it used to be called improved invis...

[The Giant]

Wait... there's no Improved Invisibility. There's invisibility sphere, invisbility, greater invisbility, but no imrpoved invisibility. I see a few possibilities to why Belkar said "improved invisibilty"
1) Rich made a mistake
2) Belkar doesn't know his spells
3) Its from some sourcebook I don't know

It's #1, again. Rich doesn't have his rulebook, and it used to be Improved Invisibility in 1E, 2E and 3.0. (And the SRD website has been running sluggish for him.)

EDIT: Fixed, now Greater Invisibility.

[Tach13]

It's always a good comic when just looking at the title makes me smile. :)

Roy has a massive amount of courage to do what he's doing, but I can't see it going well unless V gets there and starts dealing some serious support damage.

End with "You're too close!"

[Fighteer]

Sigh... I called Sangwaan's unfortunate demise. I hate being right sometimes.

Xykon's disdain for all things heroic is going to come back to bite him here, I am guessing. If he'd taken the time to remember the OotS, he might not be so casual about his actions. "Hey, time for another buzz of the walls, since I'm an high level undead caster on a zombie dragon. What could possibly hurt me?"

[Tharr]

You right it was improved they moved it greater in 3.5 done.

[Fighteer]

It's #1, again. Rich doesn't have his rulebook, and it used to be Improved Invisibility in 1E, 2E and 3.0. (And the SRD website has been running sluggish for him.)
It does that for everybody. At least I can't remember it running fast any time recently.

Greater Invisibility it is, then. I miss the days when spell names were unique and non-formulaic, and had no particular relationship to their function or power. :smallbiggrin:

[Nightmarenny]

What? No, he's the Rebel dude. Look at what he's doing. Attacking an established position. Going in fast on a flying thing. Aiming for something. Gets distracted.*sigh* Nny misses Biggs.

Remmember high damage ain't much of a problem at higher levels. How many levels did Saanwag had could keep her alive.

[3Power]

What the heck?

Sangwaan just got chewed by a dragon, thrown off the castle wall...

And not so much as a blink from Hinjo? Or the rest of the order for that matter?

No shock, No surprise? Just, "ok blind lady, you served your purpose, we don't care anymore, bye?" I mean, Belkar was shocked, but it's not like he actually cared about her.

I feel so sorry for her. She died so suddenly, unexpectedly (from her own perspective), and the invisible bite wounds only heighten the effect. It's a dramatic, shocking death(?), and the order is completely unfazed...

[AtomicKitKat]

Poor Sangwaan...

At least Xykon sorta remembered Roy's name for once...

[Shatteredtower]

Hmm. Belkar's offer isn't necessarily quite so good as the other option it suggested to Roy, methinks, but that's all I'm going to say about that.

[Wiione]

Excellent comic.

[asqwasqw]

Well, this is really confusing... I lived Belkar's betting in the middle of a battle.

[Jamie Fameflame]

Wait, who is that guy with the green-hilted sword?!? :smallbiggrin:

Looking forward to one heck of a battle scene come Saturday!

[Amotis]

"I can't shake 'im!"

[Hinton]

What the heck?

Sangwaan just got chewed by a dragon, thrown off the castle wall...

And not so much as a blink from Hinjo? Or the rest of the order for that matter?

No shock, No surprise? Just, "ok blind lady, you served your purpose, we don't care anymore, bye?" I mean, Belkar was shocked, but it's not like he actually cared about her.

I feel so sorry for her. She died so suddenly, unexpectedly (from her own perspective), and the invisible bite wounds only heighten the effect. It's a dramatic, shocking death(?), and the order is completely unfazed...

I wouldn't say that they're unfazed; I'm sure they were shocked, but seeing a lich on top of an undead dragon flying right over their heads probably gets their attention.

(And who knows...maybe Sangwaan hasn't shuffled off the mortal coil just yet)

[kpenguin]

Falling damage is really weird in D&D, so its possible that Sangwaan is still alive. Especially considering that she's probably a high-level cleric.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

It's #1, again.

You are forgiven. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, had you lied about it, saying it was Balker's fault, I would believe you. But hey, a man makes mistakes.

Anyway, this is becoming epic! But... I have a bad feeling about it... First V, then Roy...

*realizes that we'll have another weekend cliffhanger* Aw.

[Alysar]

I wouldn't say that they're unfazed; I'm sure they were shocked, but seeing a lich on top of an undead dragon flying right over their heads probably gets their attention.

(And who knows...maybe Sangwaan hasn't shuffled off the mortal coil just yet)

We can only hope

[brazilian]

Poor Sangwaan...

At least Xykon sorta remembered Roy's name for once...

hehehe Actually he didn't remember, he just said that because Roy is carring a green-hilted sword

:xykon:I should probably stay away from that guy with the green-hilted sword, whoever he is.

btw great say by Xykon hehe

[ziggurat]

Did the fact that when he roared, Roy's speech bubble looked like Xykon's mean anything? Or was he just mad?

I thought it looked like Xykon's crown was roaring.

[Tharr]

The diviner crashes in the jail nice safe.

[Igfig]

In response to a few people's questions, I'd guess that the black ray Xykon fires at Haley is Enervation.

Those first four panels... pure gold.

[3Power]

I wouldn't say that they're unfazed; I'm sure they were shocked, but seeing a lich on top of an undead dragon flying right over their heads probably gets their attention.

(And who knows...maybe Sangwaan hasn't shuffled off the mortal coil just yet)

Hinjo's face is not one of shock at either event.

Also, the issue isn't whether or not she survived, but whether The Oots knows that. Despite all the metagaming they partake in, I doubt they would just go "Oh I bet she survived" when they see her impaled by dragon teeth and hurled away.

EDIT: I mean, even if she isn't dead, she is VERY seriously injured. That's got to count for something.

[Axl_Rose]

Aww I was hoping Xykon would be totally more effective

[Kamakazee_Gnome]

Yeep. Could Roy actually be trying to land on a dragon inflight?

[CindyKay]

OK..... trying again...
Sangwaan might be alive ..... or ...... blue robes might be Rich's equivalent of red security shirts like on the Enterprise.

[Sutremaine]

Sangwaan: *wheeeee....*
Belkar: "Crap, he has Greater Invisibility?"

I snorted with laughter. Was that so wrong of me? :smalleek:

[Holy_Knight]

Go Roy! That's some classic heroics, there. :smallsmile:

[Fineous Orlon]

The next question is what good is freedom of movement.

Freedom of Movement beats Grapple, which would have been a great way for Xykon to use the dragon to beat Roy. Dragon grapple bonuses are awesome, tough to beat. Dragon tries to bite or grab Roy, Roy gets out due to Freedom of Movement, thrashes Xykon [probably only somewhat]

[Aerysil]

ew, teeth marks!

[Nerd-o-rama]

"Crap, he has Invisibility?"
...
"Crap, he has Greater Invisibility?"

Alas, Sangwaan. Life is too short, especially for someone who should have seen it coming.

I'll throw in another iteration of "what was up with that black speech bubble? Was Xykon's crown growling? Was Roy growling eeeeeeeevilly? Who knows?

And finally, leaping up at a flying dragon with a sword. In addition to being awesome, it was also done in a much more physics defying way in one of my favorite guilty-pleasure action films. Probably not an intentional reference (Roy'd need about 6 or 7 physically impossible boosts to his jump for it to really match), but still cool.

[Azzurus]

a true Laugh-out-Loud ending! Great strip!

[The Extinguisher]

Was I the only person who saw this as a possible "Belkar fufils his prophecy" thing.

He gives Roy the ring, and Roy ends up dying because he had the ring, and thus Belkar caused Roy's death. Of course, he will be raised. Just to mess with Belkar's head.

"But your dead! I killed you"

Also, I was really hoping for a "You turned of your targeting computer" type joke in there :smallfrown:

[Muz]

Ah, it's the middle of a battle. No time to mourn for everyone who's dying horribly.

And besides, Sangwaan's fine. Just like Mace Windu. :smallwink:

[3Power]

Also: the wound the dragon gets in panel 3 of the second comic disappears in panel 4.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Also: the wound the dragon gets in panel 3 of the second comic disappears in panel 4.

It does not. It's just off-panel. The wound is more on the neck of the un-dragon.

[Charmy]

Question:

What is it that Xykon blasts Haley with, and how did it hurt her?

[3Power]

It does not. It's just off-panel. The wound is more on the neck of the un-dragon.Actually, I just came to the conclusion that it's the other side of the dragon we're seing in panel 4. If it was the same side, the wound would be right to the left of the spot.

[Innis Cabal]

enervation, and level drain sucks

[Krytha]

noooo the...girl... who does useful... stuff...


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[pendejochy]

No! Not Sangwaan!

Hopefully she managed to land on something to break the fall, or cast a spell to prevent her kicking the bucket so early....

[Charmy]

enervation, and level drain sucks

How did you know it was Enervation? I didn't see him call out the spell...

And if it was.. how come he cast such a low level spell? Why not something more powerful like.. oh say.. Wail of the Banshee?

If Xykon really is able to cast 9th level spells he should have opened up with something that would kill half the OoTS in one go.

Not that I'm cheering on the bad guy or anything.. I just like to see them play it smart :smallannoyed:

[phlip]

One of these days, I'm going to have said "Loved the strip, and absolutely everything in it" so many times, it will have lost all meaning.

That won't, however, stop it from being true.

"Thor's nostrils"... "Die (again)!"... "You only unlive once"... the bet...
Classic.

It's going to be interesting seeing this in the book, with the two half-pages...

[Nogard]

OK folks... I know one of you is just dying to do the math and tell us the min/max/average expected damage to sangwaan for the dragon bite and falling damage (barring featherfall).

[Dausuul]

How did you know it was Enervation? I didn't see him call out the spell...

And if it was.. how come he cast such a low level spell? Why not something more powerful like.. oh say.. Wail of the Banshee?

If Xykon really is able to cast 9th level spells he should have opened up with something that would kill half the OoTS in one go.

Not that I'm cheering on the bad guy or anything.. I just like to see them play it smart :smallannoyed:

He doesn't want to waste his 9th-level spells. He's just amusing himself here; "buzzing the walls," as he puts it, before going off to carry out the real plan. Presumably that plan will involve him unloading a lot of magical firepower at something, so he wants to save it for the real target.


I'll throw in another iteration of "what was up with that black speech bubble? Was Xykon's crown growling? Was Roy growling eeeeeeeevilly? Who knows?

The "rrrrrrr!" in the black speech bubble appears to be coming from the zombie dragon, by way of complaint about having a large chunk of its neck hacked out.


Yeep. Could Roy actually be trying to land on a dragon inflight?

Your players never tried this? Jeez, mine do it on a regular basis. Really, how else is a melee character supposed to engage a flying monster with a ranged attack and a speed greater than 60? (Anyway, most folks who play melee fighters have a yen for gung-ho heroics, and trying to grab onto a flying dragon is way more gung-ho and heroic than pulling out your composite bow and plinking ineffectively away.)

[Jannex]

:belkar: = awesome.

[Haruki-kun]

DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) lol, great comic

[Xilehxt]

No~~~ Sangwaan... Favorite blind seer after Tyrisius. And she gets bonus points for having a good name. It looks like she had lots of fans, wonder why there wasn't a fan club for her (or there probably is and I don't know about it)

Great comic, loved Xykon's apathy towards the order.

[Charmy]

He doesn't want to waste his 9th-level spells. He's just amusing himself here; "buzzing the walls," as he puts it, before going off to carry out the real plan. Presumably that plan will involve him unloading a lot of magical firepower at something, so he wants to save it for the real target.

Fair enough.. but Enervation? On Haley, who doesn't have any spells to forget? 1d4 level drain is not only a highly unspectacular spell for 'buzzing walls', it just doesn't seem Xykon's style. An undead Sorcerer with a short attention span would tend to be the kind to blow things up in spectacular fashion, not sap levels off of an archer who didn't even do any damage to him. :smallconfused:

Plenty of other lower level spells to choose from which would have been far more effective with the same amount of resources. Cone of Cold, (Delayed Blast) Fireball, Disintegrate, Ice Storm, Chain Lightning, Cloudkill etc.

Oh well, hopefully the OoTS will take advantage of his liniency :smallamused:

[arkwei]

Hinjo's face is not one of shock at either event.

Also, the issue isn't whether or not she survived, but whether The Oots knows that. Despite all the metagaming they partake in, I doubt they would just go "Oh I bet she survived" when they see her impaled by dragon teeth and hurled away.

EDIT: I mean, even if she isn't dead, she is VERY seriously injured. That's got to count for something.



Actually I believe it's due to the "no fear for paladin" thing. ...Or maybe not, since Hinjio was showing emotions on his face when he was dueling Miko. Who knows. But yes, I totally agree with you that Sangwaan deserves some attention in this strip.

[Konrad]

Hahaha, the Green-hilted guy joke was priceless :smallbiggrin:

That was a good one

[Matuse]

You know, for some reason I really liked Sangwaan. I'm sad to see her krunnched.


Wait...Belkar's dagger went "slit."

Does that mean damage?

Neither the dragon nor Xykon are alive, and the restriction of the mark of justice is that he can't deal lethal damage to a living creature. He's free to do whatever he wants to those two (and potentially, but not likely, the MitD).

[slayerx]

OK folks... I know one of you is just dying to do the math and tell us the min/max/average expected damage to sangwaan for the dragon bite and falling damage (barring featherfall).

Guilty... i normally don't, not geek enough... but i take exception for Sangwaan <_>

grant it there's too many things to consider
1) was the dragon huge or Gagantuan... some say it's an ancient Silver but i question that... plus it looks to small to be Gargantuan
2) Is Sangwaan a wizard or a cleric... major difference in HP
3) What level is Sangwaan... wizard= atleast lv 11... Cleric= atleast lv9
4) does she have a constitution bonus?
5) How high was the wall... i'm guessing 50-100ft kind of a large difference in damage...

looking at the possibilities... if she was a wizard, then unless she cast feather fall, then close to no chance unless she took only the most surprisingly low damage... if She's a cleric, than she still has a chance... but not a great one...

Poor Sangwaan <.>

[Aquillion]

Hinjo's face is not one of shock at either event.

Also, the issue isn't whether or not she survived, but whether The Oots knows that. Despite all the metagaming they partake in, I doubt they would just go "Oh I bet she survived" when they see her impaled by dragon teeth and hurled away.

EDIT: I mean, even if she isn't dead, she is VERY seriously injured. That's got to count for something.What should his reaction be? "Oh, bother, that's another 5000 gold in diamonds we can't afford?" Granted, a lot of people are going to die in the battle, straining both the clerics and the diamond supply a lot, but the seer is a major part of the castle's defenses and seems to be fairly high-level... if she dies, they'll just find her corpse and raise dead / resurrect her as necessary. As the response to Lord Shojo's death reminded us, important people with a major kingdom behind them don't just die on the battlefield in the D&D universe. Well, they don't stay dead, anyway, not unless they want to.

[kalo]

The people must now pause for the 20d6 falling damage.

no not 20d6 theres still the damage of how high the wall is so that means at least 25d6 damage expt if he will be able to do a natural 20 on is tumble check(wich as really litle chances to be)

[Guancyto]

Sangwaan was a neat character, and falling to your death is incredibly undramatic as endings go. She'll be back. =D

[Black of Night]

Sweet comic. Everyone else beat me to comments, so I'll leave it at that.

[taraxia]

I don't know, if she's a cleric, she's got a meaty d8 for health and healing spells, and if she's a wizard she can cast feather fall (assuming she survived the bite).

If she's a psion (which I doubt, since she was told to cast spells as opposed to manifest the), then she's a bit more boned.

They called her a Diviner, which, while it could just be a flavor term for anyone with spells like true seeing, technically means a Wizard who's specialized in Divination.

Of course, there's no reason to think she's got the feather fall spell by default -- she's not an adventurer, just an NPC with access to divination spells. She may not have any non-divinations in her spellbook at all.

[3Power]

What should his reaction be? "Oh, bother, that's another 5000 gold in diamonds we can't afford?" Granted, a lot of people are going to die in the battle, straining both the clerics and the diamond supply a lot, but the seer is a major part of the castle's defenses and seems to be fairly high-level... if she dies, they'll just find her corpse and raise dead / resurrect her as necessary. As the response to Lord Shojo's death reminded us, important people with a major kingdom behind them don't just die on the battlefield in the D&D universe. Well, they don't stay dead, anyway, not unless they want to.

May I point out Hinjo was shocked by his death, and ran specifically past miko to him after the attack?

[taraxia]

In response to a few people's questions, I'd guess that the black ray Xykon fires at Haley is Enervation.

Probably a mistake on Xykon's part. The first target for enervation should be a primary caster like Vaarsuvius or Durkon. If he'd started by enervating Durkon, Durkon might never have had the chance to greater dispel his invisibility.

[Lyc]

no not 20d6 theres still the damage of how high the wall is so that means at least 25d6 damage expt if he will be able to do a natural 20 on is tumble check(wich as really litle chances to be)

I'd be a bit more worried about how many ranks Xyk has in Ride (Dragon) skill....
* With 'no saddle' penalty
* In combat
* Having to make concentration checks for spells

And I'd guess that a 'gravity initiated electrostatic decelleration' (also known as falling and hitting the ground at high speed) would crunch even lich bones. Unless he remembered feather fall and makes a concentrate check :smalltongue:

Also with 3ed, what are the rules for knocking a flying creature out of the air? Membrane wings (dragons, demons etc) should be easier to render non functional than feathery wings.

[WarriorTribble]

Of course, there's no reason to think she's got the feather fall spell by default -- she's not an adventurer, just an NPC with access to divination spells. She may not have any non-divinations in her spellbook at all.So, her survival may very well depend on being acrophobic? :smallsmile:

[A_S]

Just to continue the speculation about Xykon's spell, it could have been a Finger of Death with a successful save. That would be less underwhelming than Enervation, and would also account for Haley being hurt afterward.

[Poukis]

Noooo, the blind lady!! Don't kill her Giant!!!!!
Great comic! Cheers!

[Brawl]

ROY! :roy: ROY! :roy: ROY! :roy: ROY! :roy: and Belkar! :belkar: Somehow I wansn't superised when Belkar take the money from rougue.

[arkwei]

Guilty... i normally don't, not geek enough... but i take exception for Sangwaan <_>

grant it there's too many things to consider
1) was the dragon huge or Gagantuan... some say it's an ancient Silver but i question that... plus it looks to small to be Gargantuan
2) Is Sangwaan a wizard or a cleric... major difference in HP
3) What level is Sangwaan... wizard= atleast lv 11... Cleric= atleast lv9
4) does she have a constitution bonus?
5) How high was the wall... i'm guessing 50-100ft kind of a large difference in damage...

looking at the possibilities... if she was a wizard, then unless she cast feather fall, then close to no chance unless she took only the most surprisingly low damage... if She's a cleric, than she still has a chance... but not a great one...

Poor Sangwaan <.>



1. It is suggested that the dragon is ancient in the second book. Let's just calculate maximum damage.
4d8 +int[(35 +2 -10)/2] = 4d8+13
Avg 31, min 17, max 45
...that's only the bite.

2 & 3 & 4. From the look of it, she could be a Diviner or Cleric. For a diviner, she would have 11d4 (avg 27.5) HP from levels. But she would also have access to Feather Fall. For a cleric, she would have 11d8 (avg 39.5) from levels. Her con is unestablished. But, as traditionally for Seers in general, her con would not be that good, possibly even with a con penalty.

5. The wall... Let's see some evidences. From the looks of 424, one elemental is as tall as 3.5 regular soldiers. Form the last panel of the first half of 424, an elemental is almost the same height as the wall when it is standing on the remains of the breach. From 427, we can see that the original breach (without the stones V piled up on) is around 1.5 regular soldiers tall. So the entire wall is 5 regular soldiers tall. Assuming a soldier is at least 5ft 7in, that's less than 30 feet. 30 feet is, like, three stories of a building, so it kinda makes sense. Still, considering the fact that Shanwaan is thrown upwards first, she would not have taken less than 40 feet of damage. So, 4d6 (avg 14) for falling damage.


So, grand total of 4d8 +4d6 +13 damage. Avg 45, min 21, max 69, against a class HP of 28/40 on avg.

Which means Sangwaan is very, very hurt, if not dying/dead.

Damn data! I defy them! Sangwaan lives!





However, if the dragon is indeed ancient, it would be, like, ridiculously over CR'ed for OotS. I mean, One Lich Sor 18 is CR 20 already, and plus a zombie ancient dragon?

[Shawnis]

Whats the typical damage from an undead dragon? Add that to the fall Sangwaan will suffer from(barring featherfall) and where does she land? If she falls into the hobgoblin side;she's finished. If she falls into the city she may have a chance to fall into a "haystack" or something.

[Solmage]

Heh, that cracked me up! :) Go comic!

[KurenaiYami]

no not 20d6 theres still the damage of how high the wall is so that means at least 25d6 damage expt if he will be able to do a natural 20 on is tumble check(wich as really litle chances to be)

I believe falling damage caps at 20d6, but I could be wrong. Also, Sangwaan didn't appear to be wearing any armor, so I don't think a natural 20 is all that necessary. It's DC 15 to reduce the penalty by 1d6, and it's out of her range of possibility to reduce it further. This is all assuming she bought the cross-class skill ranks in Tumble in the first place, since you can't do it if you don't have ranks in it.

[viggo]

the diviner's toast. sorry. even a high-level cleric would probably take too much damage from that. especially given xykon's nature, he's probably got lots of undead-boosting feats, items, spells, etc.

Also, unless the dragon was dumb, it was no slouch in combat when it was alive. So, I'm guessing around a +35 damage on the roll (augment summoning, etc. etc.) Combine that with falling damage, minimum 5d6 falling damage and the dragon's bite dice which is either 4d6 or 4d8. Let's call it 9d6. Minimum 44, max +89, average 47. Dangerously close to having to make a fort save vs. massive damage.

And clown on me for being a min-maxer all you want.

[arkwei]

the diviner's toast. sorry. even a high-level cleric would probably take too much damage from that. especially given xykon's nature, he's probably got lots of undead-boosting feats, items, spells, etc.

Also, unless the dragon was dumb, it was no slouch in combat when it was alive. So, I'm guessing around a +35 damage on the roll (augment summoning, etc. etc.) Combine that with falling damage, minimum 5d6 falling damage and the dragon's bite dice which is either 4d6 or 4d8. Let's call it 9d6. Minimum 44, max +89, average 47. Dangerously close to having to make a fort save vs. massive damage.

And clown on me for being a min-maxer all you want.

Oh, no, the dragon is not dumb. It just doesn't have any Intelligence score, and has no feats besides Toughness.

Sorry for being sarcastic, but your numbers are way off. Augment summoning has nothing to do with anything, by the way.

If you don't mind, you can see the thing I posted above.

[Shawnis]

the diviner's toast. sorry. even a high-level cleric would probably take too much damage from that. especially given xykon's nature, he's probably got lots of undead-boosting feats, items, spells, etc.

Also, unless the dragon was dumb, it was no slouch in combat when it was alive. So, I'm guessing around a +35 damage on the roll (augment summoning, etc. etc.) Combine that with falling damage, minimum 5d6 falling damage and the dragon's bite dice which is either 4d6 or 4d8. Let's call it 9d6. Minimum 44, max +89, average 47. Dangerously close to having to make a fort save vs. massive damage.

And clown on me for being a min-maxer all you want. So then in that case the girl is dead before she hits the ground.Remember that when the dragon bit the "crunch" sound was there.

[Shawnis]

When Hayley was taking the spell hit from Xykon;Roy was hitting him with the sword. Could have been a disruption in the cast? Thus Hayley not taking the spells full effect?

[Icewalker]

Loved it! these have been an even more amazing few strips. Sangwaan was awesome, and hooray for resurrection for valuable members of the government! with no reason to stay dead this time!

go Roy go!

[Nikolai_II]

Wait, WHAT? Holy Aura is a 8th level spell... Man they are high-level, aren't they...

I'd guess at them being level 13 actually, what with V asking for 13 guards to use the "mass" spells on ;)

[arkwei]

So then in that case the girl is dead before she hits the ground.Remember that when the dragon bit the "crunch" sound was there.


No, I'm pretty sure he was using the wrong numbers and had not looked at zombies for a while. If you'd like, you can see my post on the same page. The conclusion is the same, but still.


When Hayley was taking the spell hit from Xykon;Roy was hitting him with the sword. Could have been a disruption in the cast? Thus Hayley not taking the spells full effect?

Generally speaking, you either take the full damage or you don't (at all). Also, it looks like Roy only hit the dragon, not Xykon, so the spell is not disrupted to begin with.

[Voyager_I]

I'd also go along with Xykon using Finger of Death as a quick way to eliminate the most important person on the wall with an obvious low Fort save, as Haley is presumably higher level then Larceny Man and it's unlikely that Xykon knows what Elan is (and he certainly won't remember that he has 12+ levels of Bard). Luckily, she passed, so instead just took some damage (of course, it's widely believed that she has pretty good Con anyhow).

[Tobrian]

Great comic. And now we have to wait for Friday! Noooo!

NPCs should learn to duck, though. Poor Sangwaan. Of course, her body is still complete even if the fall kills her (since there are no rules for maiming in D&D, so all a fall does it do unspecified damage) which means if they can find her and get a cleric to her with Raise Dead within a few days, she'd be up again minus a level. Hope Hinjo had every cleric stocked up with enough diamonds and other spell components for the battle... I mean if Hinjo doesn't have the resources, who does?

But wait... this Xykon isn't the real one either? He didn't recognize Roy? What the...? Another decoy? Or did Xykon simply forget Roy as an individual adventurer? That would be the ultimate insult, wouldn't it? :smallbiggrin: Who are you?" - "I'm the one who killed you in Dorukan's Dungeon!!" - "Oh... yeah that guy. Sorry, you mortal people all look alike after a few centuries."

What exactly did Roy cut off the dragon? A bit of the tail?

Belkar, true to alignment, doesn't lift a finger to help Sangwaan. Oh well. Perhaps it was still his surprise round?

Roy definitely should get some Hero Points out of this (Unearthed Arcana). It should help him survive the crash that follows when he kills the flying dragon he just jumped on. *cough*


OK..... trying again...
Sangwaan might be alive ..... or ...... blue robes might be Rich's equivalent of red security shirts like on the Enterprise.

If blue is the new red, then everyone in Azure City would be dead by plot device already. :smalltongue:

[serow]

Go Cloud Roy!
I hope the next strip involves a very dramatic angle, kinda like when Elan jumped into the building from that airship!

[RowlieBowlie]

absolutley Hilarious

[phlip]

I'd guess at them being level 13 actually, what with V asking for 13 guards to use the "mass" spells on ;)
Yes, but you have to be a 15th-level cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#tableTheCleric) to cast an 8th-level spell...

If this confuses you, read #12 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) again... you'll still be confused, but at least it'll be a happy confused :smallwink:

[edit]

But wait... this Xykon isn't the real one either? He didn't recognize Roy? What the...? Another decoy? Or did Xykon simply forget Roy as an individual adventurer? That would be the ultimate insult, wouldn't it? :smallbiggrin: Who are you?" - "I'm the one who killed you in Dorukan's Dungeon!!" - "Oh... yeah that guy. Sorry, you mortal people all look alike after a few centuries."
Well, this one's not wearing an amulet... and it wouldn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) be the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) he's forgotten someone unimportant.


What exactly did Roy cut off the dragon? A bit of the tail?
A slice off the side of the neck

[RMS Oceanic]

So Vaarsuvius has rocked by showing off magicky magic...

Haley has rocked by figuring out the con...

Looks like it's Roy's turn! Please don't screw up!

And I thought that "rrrrrr!" was from the dragon as part of it was rent from its body.

Xykon comes out on top in the quote wars with "green-hilted sword". So near, yet so far...

[Jawajoey]

Awesome, and funny.

And that Ring of Jumping has become really important. First it was how Belkar escaped from jail, and now it's integral to fighting Xykon at Azure City. And all that from it's humble origin as a short joke. Impressive, most impressive.

[Mjoellnir]

Mr. Burlew, maybe this will remind you of something:

Friend 1: Oh, look, it's the blind girl-killer.
Friend 2: Hello, blind girl-killer. How was your day? Did you do any more blind girl killing today?
Friend 1: I bet he's tired from a long day of killing blind girls.
Friend 2: Yeah, probably.

The rest of the strip is simply awesome.:smallsmile:

[factotum]

Greater Invisibility it is, then. I miss the days when spell names were unique and non-formulaic, and had no particular relationship to their function or power. :smallbiggrin:

Personally I'm the opposite--I miss the spell system from Tunnels and Trolls, where you were expected to remember what spell to use by its name rather than spending 5 minutes out of character looking through a rulebook for the one you needed. I mean, you've got to like a system where the lowest level enemy damaging spell is called Take That You Fiend!

As for the strip, looks like my 100% record on being wrong is intact, because that clearly IS the real Xykon on the zombie dragon...

[Fingolfin]

Fantastic! And Xykon still doesn't remember who Roy is, hehe :) Great action. Can't wait for the continuation.

[Freelance Henchman]

Did Roy hack something off the dragon? What's that jagged grey thing below the dragon in panel 7?

[Mr Teufel]

Okay so who else had flashbacks to the scene with Bahamut and Cloud in Advent children?

My neices made me watch that in return for sitting thru Legend. Very pretty special effects, and yes, this could get familiar.

I think Sangwaan was not quite knocked out by the bite (her eyes didn't go to xx's) and she has featherfall. Why does she have featherfall? Because she's blind! So she's always going to be in danger of falling down some hole/off a wall/ down some stairs; so she'll be prepared - even if it means a ring of featherfall.

[Estelindis]

What the heck?

Sangwaan just got chewed by a dragon, thrown off the castle wall...

And not so much as a blink from Hinjo? Or the rest of the order for that matter?

No shock, No surprise? Just, "ok blind lady, you served your purpose, we don't care anymore, bye?" I mean, Belkar was shocked, but it's not like he actually cared about her.

I feel so sorry for her. She died so suddenly, unexpectedly (from her own perspective), and the invisible bite wounds only heighten the effect. It's a dramatic, shocking death(?), and the order is completely unfazed...
I agree. Belkar's eyes widen as she's grabbed and flung, but that's about it! Poor Sangwaan.

On the falling damage front, I agree that whether she is a wizardly diviner or a cleric will make all the difference here. 20d6 results in 70 damage on average. As has already been pointed out, if she can cast True Seeing than she's at least an 11th level wizard or a 9th level cleric. Assuming she has 12 Con (she might have more or less, of course), then she either has at least 40 hit points as a wizard or 55 as a cleric (assuming max hp at first level and average rolls thereafter). This is not promising! So let us hope that, if she's a wizard, she has Feather Fall... or she's being flung in a V-wards direction, and V can cast it at the last minute... or she has a higher Con than 12... or she takes less than 20d6 falling damage. (Of course, the bite damage will already have eaten into her hirpoints.) Personally, I refuse to think of her as dead until I see x's in her eyes. (And I refuse to let my curiosity as to exactly how Rich would draw said x'ed eyes behind a blindfold dint my hope that she's alive!)

On other fronts, go Roy! That's some bravery. I hope he whups Xykon's bony posterior. It's also nice to see Grand Larceny Guy, and it's good to know there'll still be opportunities for heroism with the folks left behind on the wall.

I *do* wonder what that dark energy around Haley was doing. I didn't see Xykon's spell fizzle, so it must have been cast properly. At least it doesn't seem to have affected her at all.

EDIT: Actually, on closer inspection, she looks to be a bit scuffed up. Probably negative energy damage - she made her save, but still took some damage.

Roll on the next strip! :smallbiggrin:

[Delgarde]

Did the fact that when he roared, Roy's speech bubble looked like Xykon's mean anything? Or was he just mad?


I'd say it's not Roy - it's the big undead dragon. I could be wrong though.

[Roderick_BR]

"Crap, he has greater invisibility?"
That was hilarious XD
And let's hope Roy doesn't need a ring of Feather Fall :p

[Arn]

I'd be a bit more worried about how many ranks Xyk has in Ride (Dragon) skill....
* With 'no saddle' penalty
* In combat
* Having to make concentration checks for spells
He's a lich, isn't he? He doesn't have a constitution score and concentration is based on constitution. Does a lich have to make concentration checks at all? Doubt it.


Also with 3ed, what are the rules for knocking a flying creature out of the air? Membrane wings (dragons, demons etc) should be easier to render non functional than feathery wings.
Following the laws of physics a creature with the mass of a dragon would never be able to fly. I say its some kind of special supernatural stuff that keeps that thing in the air!

[Delgarde]

Probably a mistake on Xykon's part. The first target for enervation should be a primary caster like Vaarsuvius or Durkon. If he'd started by enervating Durkon, Durkon might never have had the chance to greater dispel his invisibility.


Yeah, but until Durkon actually cast the Dispel, there was no evidence that a high-level caster was present. Xykon clearly doesn't recognise the individuals he's dealing with, so he's got no reason to regard Durkon as a special threat.

[Delgarde]

Also with 3ed, what are the rules for knocking a flying creature out of the air? Membrane wings (dragons, demons etc) should be easier to render non functional than feathery wings.


It's wings are already full of holes... do you really think the laws of physics have anything to do with it being airborne? :)

[Castamir]

Sangwaan is certainly not dead yet -- we've seen her eyes whole through the blindfold. So there's a guarantee they weren't xx -- so she survived the bite. For the fall, she may be a wizard -- so she is likely to have Feather Fall prepared, or, as someone said, with being blind and walking on the top of the walls, it's kind of certain -- or, being a cleric, she can heal herself during the long way down.

She's not dead, Jim.

[daggaz]

Meh. I'm still in the camp that says Xykon is back with the MitD. That Xyklon also doesn't remember the OOTS, but he does speak a whole lot more like the real xyklon.. 'Did they take the bait?' No. Frozen in indecision. 'Meh, that works, too.'

He has that kind of smug indifference, so long as his evil plan is working (and he cares about the plan here). Sure he's wearing the wrong color phylactory, but its just another ruse. Redcloak has his real one, or he left it in his lair.

The xykon on the dragon seems a bit retarded... he is just swooping around all alone taking damage, without any kind of clear goal so far, and not even sure if he should continue swooping or 'head off' which sounds more to me like leaving than continuing in.

In other words, its a double whammy fake-out, and the dragon xykon is just yet another distraction to split up the OOTS. And it's working. Not to mention, the real Xykon probably wants to stay near the MitD, to tell it when to finally act (its so dumb) and to keep himself somewhat protected.

[TroyXavier]

Too bad for the diviner. I liked her. Roy...headstrong as always. Make him pay, Xykon.

[Kriel]

No, Sangwaan! Take him down, Roy.:smallfurious: Rich, you are a master at getting us to like even the minor named NPC's. I salute you.

[BisectedBrioche]

I have a theory: the key to defeating Xykon is to get him to remember Roy's name.

[Whisper]

This is the real Xykon. The quotes were great and he never could bother to remember the OoTS or Roy in particular.

[dutch508]

making money on the pain and suffering of your 'friends'.



classic.

[Sereno]

He's a lich, isn't he? He doesn't have a constitution score and concentration is based on constitution. Does a lich have to make concentration checks at all? Doubt it.

He does still need to make those checks, but he uses his Charisma skill instead of his non-existent Con.

I love it that even as Xykon notes that the "guy with the green-hilted sword" is someone to avoid, he still doesn't know who he is! :smallbiggrin:

Awesome comic!!

[Purple_cloack]

Yeah.
Green hilted sword?

Sangwaan died. Sad thing. *sob*
That criminal is loser.

[Marller]

Sangwaan is certainly not dead yet -- we've seen her eyes whole through the blindfold. So there's a guarantee they weren't xx -- so she survived the bite. For the fall, she may be a wizard -- so she is likely to have Feather Fall prepared, or, as someone said, with being blind and walking on the top of the walls, it's kind of certain -- or, being a cleric, she can heal herself during the long way down.

She's not dead, Jim.

Whew, didn't think of the xx-eyes. Hopefully she survives the fall and the walk back to safety. :smallsmile:

[phlip]

That criminal is loser.
Indeed. He just lost a small bagful of gold. And a small bag.

[Kaerou]

Nooo, not Sangwaan..! :(

She's so cool.. ;_;

[Raimun]

Hehheh... The story arc of the siege of Azure City is pure gold.

At first I was amazed at Belkar being selfless and actually showing common sense by giving his ring to Roy. What is this?! Did he choose to put the lvl 12 stat upgrade to his Wisdom? Did he find the T-Shirt of Wisdom? No way!

I really laughed when Belkar said: "Pay up." , after Roy jumped. One of the best for months.

[Vasvax]

New poster here and I haven't read all previous, so this might have already been said:

When does Roy's sword activate?
When he yells!
Check out the archive - ever since he got the sword when his dialog is all caps (or other indication of yelling) the sword activates. I realized this last time it happened but didn't get around to posting then.

Now, how long before he realizes it (very smart guy + consistent effect = shouldn't be too long)? And is it activated by voice/volume or by emotion? Can he control it?

[Baalzebub]

He totally owned the diviner.

:xykon: what the hell, you only unlive once

[Donraj]

I fully expect Roy to randomly demand his Coke at any moment. Damn he's a badass.

[Tawkis]

I actually thought the RRRRR! was coming from Roy's sword.

But either way, Roy was awesome let's hope it doesn't get him killed. If it does however the haters will be happy.

[PhoenixRisen]

I think I found my new curse "Thor's Nostrils!" Almost as good as WWTD. :elan:

[Ezlo]

Yay Xykon! Keep on forgetting the people who hate your guts and keep on rooting for you!

[pendell]

I do hope Sangwaan is okay.

Sorry, dude, my read is she's dead. Hit by dragon claws at least once, possibly twice, and thrown off the battlements, down however far that is, but I suspect the falling damage alone is enough to kill her.

Poor Sangwan, we hardly knew ye :( ....

All the same Giant ... great dramatic strip with lots of action. Belkar being comic relief as always.

Someone tell me: What exactly IS Xykon doing? Making a run for the gate? Then why is he coming back? A second run over the *one* weapon on the field that might actually hurt him?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Earendill]

Challenge to D20 number crunchers.

Durkon, a lvl 13 cleric casts Greater Dispel Magic that actually dispells the Greater invisibility cast by Xykon. I want a full mathematical model :smallsmile: of the odds of that happening depending on Xykon's level. Then translate to the potential effectiveness of Spell resistance (11 + caster level I think ?) on Roy. Come on, you know you want to do it :)


I totally agree with a previous poster. Sangwaa, a blind diviner that spends a lot of time in tall towers and on tall fortifications is bound to have some sort of falling prevention. If I were here I would even take something item based that requires no casting....

[FeralAscendant]

The next question is what good is freedom of movement.

I'm not sure if someone mention this or not, but Freedom of Movement makes you immune to grapple.

What the dragon did to the seer was a grapple.

Do we have any idea what level/HD Xykon has?

Without special magic items or feats Durkon had a 50/50 chance to dispel the invis if Xykon is only a 13th level caster (unlikely).

[BlaineTog]

Meh. I'm still in the camp that says Xykon is back with the MitD. That Xyklon also doesn't remember the OOTS, but he does speak a whole lot more like the real xyklon.. 'Did they take the bait?' No. Frozen in indecision. 'Meh, that works, too.'

He has that kind of smug indifference, so long as his evil plan is working (and he cares about the plan here). Sure he's wearing the wrong color phylactory, but its just another ruse. Redcloak has his real one, or he left it in his lair.

The xykon on the dragon seems a bit retarded... he is just swooping around all alone taking damage, without any kind of clear goal so far, and not even sure if he should continue swooping or 'head off' which sounds more to me like leaving than continuing in.

In other words, its a double whammy fake-out, and the dragon xykon is just yet another distraction to split up the OOTS. And it's working. Not to mention, the real Xykon probably wants to stay near the MitD, to tell it when to finally act (its so dumb) and to keep himself somewhat protected.This is exactly what I thought.

[Faramir]

What the heck?

Sangwaan just got chewed by a dragon, thrown off the castle wall...

And not so much as a blink from Hinjo? Or the rest of the order for that matter?

No shock, No surprise? Just, "ok blind lady, you served your purpose, we don't care anymore, bye?" I mean, Belkar was shocked, but it's not like he actually cared about her.


It's the nameless NPC wizard syndrome.


BTW, just for pendantry's sake IIRC the spell Improved Invisibility was first introduced in The Strategic Review as one of the few really good spells for the new Illusionist class also introduced in that issue. I'd have to dig my copy out of storage to be 100% certain...

[Doug Lampert]

In response to a few people's questions, I'd guess that the black ray Xykon fires at Haley is Enervation.Possible, but he's a high level sorcerer, I'd go with Disintigrate. It's a nice multiuse spell (and Sorcerers should always favor spells with multiple uses) of about the right level for a liche that the OotS has any chance against and that uses a ray to attack and that does damage even if you make your save and that goes against a Fort save which makes targeting Haley a reasonable idea.

[Vox]

Ahh....Someone start a Sangwaan fanclub already....even if she is dead.
(Must.....Not....Believe! She LIVES, I say. SHE LIVES!)
Anyway......that was a weird first post, ever.

[Freelance Henchman]

does damage even if you make your save and that goes against a Fort save which makes targeting Haley a reasonable idea.

Agree. Haley has a little "damage crosshatch" in her next appearance. That *bastard*.

[MaxKaladin]

One possibility I haven't seen mentioned is that Haley made her save. It could have been one of those nasty save or die spells like Finger of Death where you die if you fail the save and "just" take a few dice of damage if you make the save.

That said, I'm still a bit surprised he didn't throw something like Chain Lightning or Prismatic Spray to do a number on all of them.

[Gitman00]

Sorry, dude, my read is she's dead. Hit by dragon claws at least once, possibly twice, and thrown off the battlements, down however far that is, but I suspect the falling damage alone is enough to kill her.

Poor Sangwan, we hardly knew ye :( ....

All the same Giant ... great dramatic strip with lots of action. Belkar being comic relief as always.

Someone tell me: What exactly IS Xykon doing? Making a run for the gate? Then why is he coming back? A second run over the *one* weapon on the field that might actually hurt him?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

My read on Sangwaan's fate is that she was bitten and thrown, not clawed. Observe that the pattern of her wound matches the shape of the dragon's snout, and that she is lifted straight up before she's tossed. But yeah, she's probably dead if she didn't have Feather Fall prepared. As for Xykon's plan, I have no idea. I was confused by his "head off" remark. It seems to imply that he's headed somewhere else entirely, but we know that he had wanted to head straight for the Gate before talking to Redcloak. Strange.

[KoDT69]

Haha, I know what Roy is doing. He is using my Mobile Defense Feat to mount the swooping dragon! :smallbiggrin: Giant, did you read my post in the d20 gaming section with the improved fighter feats? It works on swooping airborn creatures or even against a mounted land opponent charging at you. :smallcool:

[Fighteer]

He's a lich, isn't he? He doesn't have a constitution score and concentration is based on constitution. Does a lich have to make concentration checks at all? Doubt it.
As already pointed out, creatures without a Constitution score use their Charisma for all checks where Constitution would normally be appropriate.


Following the laws of physics a creature with the mass of a dragon would never be able to fly. I say its some kind of special supernatural stuff that keeps that thing in the air!
Flight for most winged creatures is an Extraordinary ability, so it's entirely non-magical in nature unless stated otherwise in the creature's description.

There are no rules for specifically damaging a flying creature's wings, any more than there are rules for damaging specific parts of any other creature's body. (There are a few exceptions for things like vorpal weapons, but we can safely disregard them for the purposes of this discussion.) It's all based on hit points. When a DM adds flavor text to combat ("Your mighty axe blow makes a huge rent in the dragon's wing. Shreds of rotting skin flutter to the ground amid droplets of foul ichor."), it's entirely arbitrary and in no way related to the actual mechanical effects of the damage, unless the DM house rules otherwise.

RAW: When a [winged] flying creature loses half of its maximum hit points, it is no longer able to stay in the air. There are no general exceptions for undead AFAIK.

[Hushdawg]

Buff him! Quick!

*scrubs him down with a loofah*

[Draz74]

I'd also go along with Xykon using Finger of Death as a quick way to eliminate the most important person on the wall with an obvious low Fort save, as Haley is presumably higher level then Larceny Man and it's unlikely that Xykon knows what Elan is (and he certainly won't remember that he has 12+ levels of Bard). Luckily, she passed, so instead just took some damage (of course, it's widely believed that she has pretty good Con anyhow).

Um, I was pretty sure Con was her dump stat.
:elan: Haley, you don't DO melee combat. There's a reason you don't carry a sword! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)

She has amazing Dexterity (20 without items, judging by what Giant explained about her lockpicking exploits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html)). Her strength is unremarkable, but at least compares favorably with V's Strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html). Wisdom of course isn't her specialty, but judging by her excellent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html) Sense Motive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) skill, it can't be too low. Intelligence isn't her highest, either, since she gets lots of skills anyway, but she does get Bonus Languages (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html). And Charisma is undoubtedly her best stat after Dexterity, with her being "lovely" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) and Bluffing so well.

So ... maybe she was just really lucky on her Fort save. Or maybe the spell was something less deadly (less resources expended for Xykon in preparation for the real fight), like Enervation. (Which is a great spell, and very sadistic, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Xykon use it. And it would indeed cause damage to Haley -- negative levels are 5 damage each.) I thought it was probably Finger of Death at first too, but I'm not sure Haley could shrug that off as easily as she did.

[Laman_Stahros]

It's #1, again. Rich doesn't have his rulebook, and it used to be Improved Invisibility in 1E, 2E and 3.0. (And the SRD website has been running sluggish for him.)

EDIT: Fixed, now Greater Invisibility.
Don't sweat it, Rich. We point these out because we love your work and want to help make it even better.:smallbiggrin:

First we saw V rule the comic and now Roy gets his time in the spotlight. Yay!:smallbiggrin:

[thatwolfguy]

facts:
-arrows and the sword only hit the dragon - we don't know if they would have damaged the rider
-he didnt' recognize roy
-Durkon's dispel overcame his invis
-he said something like "should i buzz the wall again"
-there are at least 3 decoys
-good call on the amulets, i didn't catch that myself - the three on the ground were all wearing them, the one in the air wasn't
-all four of them have black speech bubbles with white words
-"you only un-live once" which could work either way, it could show that he is undead, but then again he has undead minions - and he has un-lived twice that we know of (roy un-killed him once)
-they want what's in the throne room

speculation:
-the spell the dragon-rider cast on haley didn't kill her, a lot of people think it was a low level spell (ennervation), we don't know, "silent spell"?
-the speech pattern of the xyk in back with red-cloak sounded more like the way the real xyk would speak


i'm torn, there might be a 5th sneaking in somewhere - great shell game - which it might be interesting to note, typically only has three shells.

[Senko]

Interesting very interesting I wonder if this really is the real Xycan.

Unfortunately for Roy jumping and rings of jumping got horribly nerfed in 3.x even with Belkars +20ring (really impressive since the SRD only has 5 an 10) it doesn't alter his ability to leap more than his height. According to that he'd be lucky to reach 5 feet in height

Reproduced from SRD http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsAll.html#jump

High Jump Distance1 Jump DC2
1 foot 4
2 feet 8
3 feet 12
4 feet 16
5 feet 20
6 feet 24
7 feet 28
8 feet 32
1 Not including vertical reach; see below.
2 Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC.

In other words since he didn't really get a running start he'd need a DC 24 just to reach 3 feet in height. If we assume he's put say 5 or so ranks in jump he has a maximum DC of 20+20+5=45 or 8 feet unless he didn't have a run up in whih case its 5 feet. 8 feet is the max for a medium creature (i.e. humanoid).

So thats a silver dragon I've always thought it was some type of Wyvern my bad. Still they're lucky it isn't one type of undead dragon from the earlier versions of DND that did 7 negative levels per hit and could hit you 3 times a round minimum. Claw -7 levels, claw -7 levels, bite -7 levels total - 21 levels in single round = innefective adventurer. I think Xycans just having fun before heading off the castle since he has been found out and is overconfident.

[Kuldace]

On another topic:

Anyone have any idea why Hinjo doesn't attack Xykon/Dragon?

We're talking a major evil who is fairly undead. Kind of the opposite of a Paladin's way of life, yes? Hinjo isn't weak, he's gotta be at least moderately leveled to be the second best Paladin. Even if he's the leader, and "shouldn't die," he should at least try to do something holy to Xykon, right?

Thoughts?

[atteSmythe]

The xykon on the dragon seems a bit retarded... he is just swooping around all alone taking damage, without any kind of clear goal so far, and not even sure if he should continue swooping or 'head off' which sounds more to me like leaving than continuing in.

I completely disagree. First, remember that it's Redcloak that realizes OotS are here. Xykon doesn't even remember then, and figures he's attacking low-level characters on the wall. Also, he's swooping around the wall because, aside from Roy's attack (which he'll now try to avoid), his and his dragon's damage resistance mean they're not taking any damage at all!

I figure that he was flying over the wall, and saw some characters not in uniform, which means they were not army regular, and probably the highest-level characters in the area. Why not get a free, invisibility-cloaked attack in beforehand? It's free carnage!

[Xenon]

hmmm....

Durkon is probably trying to turn the lich, which would cause him to ride his dragon elsewhere.

When greenhilt stikes... i think the dark GRRR is from the dragon.

and yes, he SHOULD have stayed in jail.

[MReav]

Sangwaan was likely only bitten and thrown, since Zombies only have one action a round (which explains why Xykon took several turns to get back).

I'm interest to see just how useful that estimated 25 SR is.

[fractal]

On another topic:

Anyone have any idea why Hinjo doesn't attack Xykon/Dragon?

We're talking a major evil who is fairly undead. Kind of the opposite of a Paladin's way of life, yes? Hinjo isn't weak, he's gotta be at least moderately leveled to be the second best Paladin. Even if he's the leader, and "shouldn't die," he should at least try to do something holy to Xykon, right?

Thoughts?
That's just what I was thinking. Hinjo and Elan seem to have sat that one out. Even if Elan is use-impaired, Hinjo should have been swinging at the dragon when Roy did.

Unlike the ranged attackers with them, Hinjo's weapon is slashing (which should penetrate the zombie DR). Combine that with a Smite Evil, and he ought to be able to take a decent chunk out of its hp (Hinjo ought to be at least level 10 or so, right? He did stand up to Miko, if only briefly, and we know she's like level 16).

Not great heroics from the leader of the paladins, especially one sworn to defend the gate.

[Fighteer]

Sangwaan was likely only bitten and thrown, since Zombies only have one action a round (which explains why Xykon took several turns to get back).

I'm interest to see just how useful that estimated 25 SR is.
It's a dragon zombie, which is a special case, as has already been pointed out several times in the thread. Creatures over 10 HD cannot be animated with Animate Dead anyway, so it's obviously not the usual shambling "brains" type.

I was checking the SRD just for fun and I realized that an ancient silver dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#silverDragon) can't hover (its maneuverability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tableManeuverability) is Clumsy), so regardless of its zombie status, Xykon has to be performing flyby attacks rather than having the dragon just sit there and attack people. Therefore, zombie template or not, it only gets a standard action, which it used to bite Sangwaan. It also presumably has the Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch) feat. Note that if it were using the zombie template, it could not attack while maintaining flight, as zombies only get a partial action.

Technically, the dragon can't bite/snatch Sangwaan (a standard action) and fling her (another standard action) in the same round, as its move action is used to maintain forward velocity, but I'm willing to overlook minor details in favor of the fun factor. :smallsmile: I guess it could move/bite in the surprise round and fling/move in the second round, but then Roy and company wouldn't have been able to take any actions unless they won initiative.

Edit: I reread the strip, and it appears that the PCs only get a chance to attack the dragon on its second pass of the walls; thus the mechanics are perfectly correct.

[Holy_Knight]

That's just what I was thinking. Hinjo and Elan seem to have sat that one out. Even if Elan is use-impaired, Hinjo should have been swinging at the dragon when Roy did.

Unlike the ranged attackers with them, Hinjo's weapon is slashing (which should penetrate the zombie DR). Combine that with a Smite Evil, and he ought to be able to take a decent chunk out of its hp (Hinjo ought to be at least level 10 or so, right? He did stand up to Miko, if only briefly, and we know she's like level 16).

Not great heroics from the leader of the paladins, especially one sworn to defend the gate.

Hmm... well, as mentioned, the dragon wasn't in melee range at first, and it's possible that once it was, only Roy was close enough to get to it. Also, depending on how broad or narrow the battlements are, Hinjo might not have been able to get to it in time or attack it in tandem with Roy. So it doesn't necessarily mean that Hinjo was remiss in combat.

[pendrake40]

It is the mark of a truly worthwhile story and series when its readers mourn the death of even its minor characters (yes, a "poor Sangwaan" from me too). Excellent work Giant :smallcool: !

I am also curious to know what was the black blast from Xyrlon that hit Haley. I do hope it was nothing major/permanent, there are few things that strike terror into a Player Character than permanent damage or level loss.

[MReav]

Ironically, Belkar was the only one that did any damage aside from Roy, since he used slashing weapons.

That being said, he only has a limited number of daggers to throw.

[the_tick_rules]

what's the dr on zombies 5 vs. slashing. I'm sure they hurt it a little. Unless the dragon keeps it DR magic resist, i don't believe so. Oh and freedom of movement also ignores armor check penalties. i'm sure that's why durkon cast it, i doubt xykon is going to try and grapple him.

[Ebonwoulfe]

I believe that Belkar 'winning the bet' has to do with something like this -

Belkar - I bet you Roy tries to jump up to hit him
Theif - no way, it's a bet!
Belkar - Here Roy, try to get up there with my ring of jumping +20
Theif - Damnit!

[WebMonk]

Any ideas what Xykon zapped Haley with? And what did Roy chop off of the undead dragon? It looked like he chopped off something, but darned if I can figure out what it was.

[Vale]

Any ideas what Xykon zapped Haley with? And what did Roy chop off of the undead dragon? It looked like he chopped off something, but darned if I can figure out what it was.

He chopped off a slice of skin/flesh from it's neck. You can see the jagged-edged spot it came off of. Just look right in the middle of his green glow, along the underside of the wing. See that lightning-shaped spot? The Dragon is the new Harry Potter.

[Space-Is-Curved]

NOOOOOO! Sangwaan has been slain, as far as we know.

*applauds*

Brilliant. Belkar is amazing again. Zykon is still clueless, and the party is apparantly at leas level 15. :smallsmile:

[Space-Is-Curved]

NOOOOOO! Sangwaan has been slain, as far as we know.

*applauds*

Brilliant. Belkar is amazing again. Zykon is still clueless, and the party is apparantly at leas level 15. :smallsmile:

[Tolkien_Freak]

Oh, crap. It doesn't look good for Roy. The 'bet' thing bodes ill.

[Shott]

You trickster. You almost had me worried about the Belkster.

[AyuVince]

Hooray for Starmetal!

[The_Cardinal]

Just had and interesting thought, what if that wasn't the ring of jumping Belkar gave Roy.

[Vale]

Just had and interesting thought, what if that wasn't the ring of jumping Belkar gave Roy.

I think you'd do well in the Oh noes(spoiler) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38272) thread. There are some supporters of that theory, but I'd tend to disagree, if only because Belkar enjoys life and therefore would want Xykon "killed" too.

[Tussy the Druid]

The whole "Die! Again!" managed to make me laugh. I hope Roy is going to be ok though.

[thatwolfguy]

In other words since he didn't really get a running start he'd need a DC 24 just to reach 3 feet in height. If we assume he's put say 5 or so ranks in jump he has a maximum DC of 20+20+5=45 or 8 feet unless he didn't have a run up in whih case its 5 feet. 8 feet is the max for a medium creature (i.e. humanoid).

jump is str based right? don't forget the str bonus...

[Uzbad]

That jump ring sketch.. is .. bloody ..brilliant *thud*

[Seragon]

Ok, did Belkar just help out?!?! Did he help, or did he bet the guy he coudl trick Roy into making the jump and then he gave Roy a useless ring and is now watching Roy plummet!

I will die laughing if the next comic is Belkar laughing at Roy from the top of the wall!!

[Lycar]

As for the strip, looks like my 100% record on being wrong is intact, ...

Cool, keep up the good work ! :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, couldn't resist. :smallsmile:

But seriously, isn't the +jumping on/at flying opponents+ not a standard staple of every heroic fantsy ? No matter if it jumping up to grapple the beholder, or the Jedi jumping into the passenger compartment of the gunship hovering above the heroes ....


Lycar

[5tephen]

Oh, yeah!

Funny, Action, Coolness, this one had it all!

(Thanks for the repeating double length goodness too, Rich. VERY much appreciated.)

[phlip]

(Thanks for the repeating double length goodness too, Rich. VERY much appreciated.)
(Page-and-a-half... but then, the previous was 2 and a half pages, so it's close enough)

[Steward]

No matter if it jumping up to grapple the beholder, or the Jedi jumping into the passenger compartment of the gunship hovering above the heroes ....



It'll be funny if Vaarsuvius walks back into frame and asks Belkar why he gave Roy that Ring of Wizardry...

[Bluefin]

A couple of things.
Nooooo...ooooo! (add however many o's you want) Sangwaan!
And Belkar looked so cute when he was throwing the dagger.
Also, is this the first time we've seen the back of Belkar's head? His hair looks pretty wierd from the back.
Oh and Go Roy!

[skinkatlarge]

I have to show some love for the underappreciated "Wow, that is so cool..." from Elan. That is so... so him. :smallbiggrin:

[Hushdawg]

Of course, there's no reason to think she's got the feather fall spell by default -- she's not an adventurer, just an NPC with access to divination spells. She may not have any non-divinations in her spellbook at all.

I didn't know they had braille spellbooks. :P

I'm thinking that her skills may be innate.

A lot of folks are talking about "falling damage" and factoring in the height of the wall and all that such nonsense.

Homegirl got thrown, okay? Bitten and slung across the city.

She's skipping across rooftops like a rock across a lake.

There ain't no comin' back from that.

[dutch508]

Any ideas what Xykon zapped Haley with? And what did Roy chop off of the undead dragon? It looked like he chopped off something, but darned if I can figure out what it was.

Well, see...It used to be a BOY zombie dragon...

[Senko]

Thank you for that image.

Okay yes I forgot str bonus so add 4-5 to that jump check he's still not doing that well 5-8 feet.

On the subject of DR I don't see why the dragon wouldn't retain its original damage reduction since I'm not aware of any rules that they lose it when becoming undead, its normally add this template to what's already there and use the best result. Not to mention it seems slightly more there than the typical "brains" zombie as a previous poster said and there are a lot of other options for undead that do more than a 1 hit wonder approach e.g. death knights, vampires, gouls, liches, super zombies.

[NovaSeaker]

Special Qualities
A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A zombie gains the following special quality.

So yeah, it doesn't keep its original DR.

[Matuse]

I see no reason to assume that Sangwaan is blind. I always read the blindfold as being a useful tool for doing divinations so she isn't seeing "double" (that is, one image with her eyes, and one image with her spells).

Plus, my reading of the True Seeing spell would indicate that blind people cannot benefit from it.

[Nightfall]

I wonder what Xykon hit Haley with. It didn't seem to have much effect on her.


She still got hurt. Perhaps Xykon's spell wasn't as effective because he was distracted. Just a thought.

[Romnipotent]

What the heck?

Sangwaan just got chewed by a dragon, thrown off the castle wall...

And not so much as a blink from Hinjo? Or the rest of the order for that matter?

No shock, No surprise? Just, "ok blind lady, you served your purpose, we don't care anymore, bye?" I mean, Belkar was shocked, but it's not like he actually cared about her.

I feel so sorry for her. She died so suddenly, unexpectedly (from her own perspective), and the invisible bite wounds only heighten the effect. It's a dramatic, shocking death(?), and the order is completely unfazed...
Battle is not the time to hold a wake! She will be mourned with the other lost soldiers... and maybe even that tough hobgob that looked rather stressed at being skewered at the wall breach.



Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC.

In other words since he didn't really get a running start he'd need a DC 24 just to reach 3 feet in height.
We see him running in one panel and more running in the next, we can probably assume he did get a run in... although its still D&D jumping rules, at least Roy can help out at the wall on a personal basis and lets see if he has great cleave and such.

And good to see Elan using his bardic ability to help Roy out too!

[Tordek]

The D&D Ring of Jumping eliminates all limitations on jump-height that would come from natural jumping. With a running start and a +20 on top of his Strength and any ranks, he can probably get about 20 feet above the top of the castle wall, and go OUT a good distance too.

[Professor Tanhauser]

I think the big issue is what happens to belkar if roy bites it. Would roy's death free belkar from needing to be within a mile of roy, would it activate the MoJ at once or mean belkar had to lug roy's decomposing ass with him if he went anywhere?

[phobiandarkmoon]

Loved the strip. Just two things I'm wondering about-

1) Where did this thief get that bag of gold? He's supposed to have been in prison where, one would assume, all possessions including cash were confiscated. Eh, maybe he stole it since he got out, but that seems overly risky to me.

2) spoiler, I guess: Either Xykon has a -serious- superiority complex or his memory is actually being magically manipulated. I can't believe he actually forgot what the guy who blew him up(!!!) looks like. Is it possible to mess with someone's mind in D&D? I have no idea, I mostly play WFRP and WoD

[Dr. Simon]

Possible, but he's a high level sorcerer, I'd go with Disintigrate.

I'd go with disintegrate too, since if you look at Haley in the later panels her equipment is all cracked and damaged. That wouldn't happen with a spell aimed purely at her organic components, such as finger of death. I also note from earlier strips that Xykon doesn't always speak the name of his spell, unlike other casters in the strip. Silent Spell feat perhaps?

[CelestialStick]

Falling damage is really weird in D&D, so its possible that Sangwaan is still alive. Especially considering that she's probably a high-level cleric.

A normal person might die from falling from a city wall, perhaps 30-50 feet or so, but a few people have lived after falling thousands of feet, the record being 33,000 feet set in 1972 by a stewardess name Vesna Vulovic. You can read about it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulovic.


Hinjo's face is not one of shock at either event.

Also, the issue isn't whether or not she survived, but whether The Oots knows that. Despite all the metagaming they partake in, I doubt they would just go "Oh I bet she survived" when they see her impaled by dragon teeth and hurled away.

EDIT: I mean, even if she isn't dead, she is VERY seriously injured. That's got to count for something.

True seeing is a 5th level clerical spell, which would require a cleric of at least 9th level to cast. A 9th-level caster would have hit points equal to 9 x (1d8+Constitution modifier). Let's assume the Constitution modifier is 0 and the wall is even 50 feet tall. She would have an average of 40 hit points and the fall would cause an average of 17 points of damage, so she wouldn't even be down to half her hit points. If the wall's only 30 feet high, she'd take an average of only 10 and be at three-fourths of her hit points. If the dragon is only very old, it would do 2d8+11 points of damage with a bite, or an average of 20--more than from the fall. Of course with the fall and the bite, she could be in dire straits indeed. :smallsmile:


Freedom of Movement beats Grapple, which would have been a great way for Xykon to use the dragon to beat Roy. Dragon grapple bonuses are awesome, tough to beat. Dragon tries to bite or grab Roy, Roy gets out due to Freedom of Movement, thrashes Xykon [probably only somewhat]

Starting a grapple provokes an attack of opportunity, and if Xykon is smart he won't want to allow the sword with the green hilt to get a free attack on the zombie dragon after all the damage it did on the first attack. A regular dragon could have the Snatch feat and start a grapple if it hits with an attack, but both the zombie and dragon zombie templates remove all feats from the base creature. Both the zombie and dragon zombie templates also restrict the creature to one action (attack or move) per round, so it couldn't fly and attack anyway. Rich does, however, seem to be ignoring that rule, as he did have the dragon fly and bite at the same time.

As I recall, Xykon said something about returning at a higher altitude, so Xykon is probably not thinking of having the dragon physically engage the defenders. More likely he plans to have it breath (again ignoring the one-action rule for zombies) on the defenders instead.


OK folks... I know one of you is just dying to do the math and tell us the min/max/average expected damage to sangwaan for the dragon bite and falling damage (barring featherfall).

Yup. See above. :smallbiggrin:

[Late Shift]

I will admit that I have not read all 8 past pages... However has anyone else thought that Belkar did not give Roy a ring of jumping...

[CelestialStick]

He doesn't want to waste his 9th-level spells. He's just amusing himself here; "buzzing the walls," as he puts it, before going off to carry out the real plan. Presumably that plan will involve him unloading a lot of magical firepower at something, so he wants to save it for the real target.



The "rrrrrrr!" in the black speech bubble appears to be coming from the zombie dragon, by way of complaint about having a large chunk of its neck hacked out.



Your players never tried this? Jeez, mine do it on a regular basis. Really, how else is a melee character supposed to engage a flying monster with a ranged attack and a speed greater than 60? (Anyway, most folks who play melee fighters have a yen for gung-ho heroics, and trying to grab onto a flying dragon is way more gung-ho and heroic than pulling out your composite bow and plinking ineffectively away.)

This is one of the things that makes flying opponents with ranged attacks (breath weapon) so dangerous. The dragon with Flyby Attack simply flies over the party, hitting targets with its breath weapon, and then flies on. It need never engage in melee if he doesn't want to, unless the melee specialist have fly spells going. Of course a wizard or sorcerer can inflict severe damage on a flying dragon with ranged spells, so flying melee specialists are hardly the only option for fighting flying dragons.

Another option is running for cover. If you can get underground or possibly just under large trees you might be able to force the dragon to engage you on the ground. Fleeing works sometimes too--there's nothing that says that the party should be able to defeat every dragon that flies overhead. Bilbo and the dwarves, for instance, certainly didn't have the ability to defeat Smaug in combat. I've played more than one melee specialist who was part of a party that fled from the approach of one or more dragons.

Jumping onto a flying dragon should be extremely difficult. You have to do a high jump to the altitude of the top (back) of the dragon when it's pretty close overhead (but not exactly over head or you'd just bounce off the dragon's underside). The dragon would have to be flying very low, because even an 8-foot high jump requires a Jump check DC of 32--and that's with a 20-foot running start. If the dragon is 30+ feet above the party, as a practical matter a non-epic character simply isn't going to be able to jump that high.

Even if you managed to jump that high, you'd have to make a grapple check or it would just fall down again. Now it could take its attack of opportunity as you move through the space it threatens, or it could wait until you make your grab touch attack to take its attack of opportunity (unless you have Improved Grapple). Most likely it will hit you as you're moving pretty slowly upward against gravity. (As with climbing, I'd most likely make you lose your Dexterity bonus.) If it does hit you, your grapple attempt fails and you fall. If it misses you shouldn't have much trouble with a dragon's touch AC, but there's that pesky opposed roll, in which it gets it BAB, Strength modifier, and a special size modifier (the larger, the higher the modifier). Again unless you've reached epic level, chances are that it's going to shrug you right off and you're going to fall to the ground.

Even if you do by some chance win the opposed Grapple check, you're holding on and can't attack with anything larger than a light weapon, with which you take a -4 attack penalty. So all things considered, it seems like a fairly poor idea.

I might also add that if the dragon is using Flyby Attack, it can move 75-100 feet, breath on you from 30+ feet, and then fly another 75-100 feet. That means that it's unlikely the dragon will be flying more or right above you when it comes to your turn. You might ready an action to jump on the dragon when it gets within "range" (ignoring for the moment that you probably can't jump even half the way to the dragon's likely altitude), but remember that you can ready only one action. Jumping is a move action, so even if you managed to get to the altitude of the dragon's back, you can't make the required touch attack to initiate the grapple, and at best you bounce off and fall to the ground again. (Without at attack action I probably wouldn't even let you bouce off--you'd just miss.) :smallbiggrin:


I will admit that I have not read all 8 past pages... However has anyone else thought that Belkar did not give Roy a ring of jumping...

Yup. At least two people (through about page three) have mentioned the possibility. GMTA and all. (And I don't mean me either; I never thought of that.) :smallsmile:

[Estelindis]

Challenge to D20 number crunchers.

Durkon, a lvl 13 cleric casts Greater Dispel Magic that actually dispells the Greater invisibility cast by Xykon. I want a full mathematical model :smallsmile: of the odds of that happening depending on Xykon's level. Then translate to the potential effectiveness of Spell resistance (11 + caster level I think ?) on Roy. Come on, you know you want to do it :)
Well, assuming Xykon is 20th level, and Durkon is 13th, the Spell Resistance of 25 (12+CL), when opposing a CL check of 20+1d20 will have a 25% chance of success. But hey, protection from a quarter of Xykon's spells is better than nothing.

As for the Greater Invisibility, the DC would have been 31 (11+CL), and Durkon would have rolled 13+1d20, so he only had a 15% chance of success. Go Durkon!

I refuse to make a mathematical model with different levels for Xykon, as I really should be working right now, but that should give you a taste at least!

[CelestialStick]

Well, assuming Xykon is 20th level, and Durkon is 13th, the Spell Resistance of 25 (12+CL), when opposing a CL check of 20+1d20 will have a 25% chance of success. But hey, protection from a quarter of Xykon's spells is better than nothing.

As for the Greater Invisibility, the DC would have been 31 (11+CL), and Durkon would have rolled 13+1d20, so he only had a 15% chance of success. Go Durkon!

I refuse to make a mathematical model with different levels for Xykon, as I really should be working right now, but that should give you a taste at least!

Using your assumptions, Xykon would need to roll a 5 or better to overcome the SR. That means he would fail on a roll of 1-4, or 20% of the time.

[Blaznak]

Ahhhhh Belkar... You know there's something up when he's being nice. You read those panels and wonder... Hmmm.... what's the angle here? In this case, simple avarice! Xykon is as maniacally ditzy as ever... Fun.

[zombie chick]

:smalleek: *brain gets fried by all the gaming calculations*

on a lighter note the strip was great! go roy! cant wait for another great confrontation between him and xykon (who are you again?)
and belkar is just the same as ever, but i dont think that he thought is he going to survive the battle long enough to spend that gold. gotta love that short sighted proto plasm he calls a brain

[daggaz]

I completely disagree. First, remember that it's Redcloak that realizes OotS are here. Xykon doesn't even remember then, and figures he's attacking low-level characters on the wall. Also, he's swooping around the wall because, aside from Roy's attack (which he'll now try to avoid), his and his dragon's damage resistance mean they're not taking any damage at all!

I figure that he was flying over the wall, and saw some characters not in uniform, which means they were not army regular, and probably the highest-level characters in the area. Why not get a free, invisibility-cloaked attack in beforehand? It's free carnage!


Or why not head straight for your prime target, invisible and unseen, without tipping off your existence to the defenders, who will soon be taken care of by your invading army. Xykon doesn't care about his own army (plenty of evidence), he couldnt possibly care about the defenders (too smug as well to even worry about their threat), he DOES care about the gates tho. If he does anything, it will be to capture the gate. Hence, the dragon is a ruse.

[SPoD]

Or why not head straight for your prime target, invisible and unseen, without tipping off your existence to the defenders, who will soon be taken care of by your invading army.

Because you're careless, overconfident, and obsessed with entertaining yourself (even at the expense of efficiency). Just like Xykon has always been.

[Senko]

Actually according to the latest versions ring of Jump no longer allows you to jump more than your height they cut that out entirely (I remember one person complaining it was pretty much useless without that and I just double checked). Although I was run about his runing start so he can get up to 8 feet.

Jumping: This ring continually allows the wearer to leap about, providing a +5 competence bonus on all his Jump checks.
Faint transmutation; CL 2nd; Forge Ring, creator must have 5 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 2,500 gp.

Jumping, Improved: As jumping, except it grants a +10 competence bonus on its wearer’s Jump check.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, creator must have 10 ranks in the Jump skill; Price 10,000 gp.

See no mention of freeing you from the height limit.

[Estelindis]

Using your assumptions, Xykon would need to roll a 5 or better to overcome the SR. That means he would fail on a roll of 1-4, or 20% of the time.
You're right; I forgot SR is like AC or saving throws, in that if your result is the exact number "on the button", you make it.

[Tawkis]

Or why not head straight for your prime target, invisible and unseen, without tipping off your existence to the defenders, who will soon be taken care of by your invading army. Xykon doesn't care about his own army (plenty of evidence), he couldnt possibly care about the defenders (too smug as well to even worry about their threat), he DOES care about the gates tho. If he does anything, it will be to capture the gate. Hence, the dragon is a ruse.
Because Xykon also appears to suffer from ADD? I suppose that it COULD be a fourth Decoy, but really this seems to be the real deal. I could of course be horribly wrong.

[CelestialStick]

You're right; I forgot SR is like AC or saving throws, in that if your result is the exact number "on the button", you make it.

That's what I figured had happened. :smallsmile:


Because Xykon also appears to suffer from ADD? I suppose that it COULD be a fourth Decoy, but really this seems to be the real deal. I could of course be horribly wrong.

For what it's worth, this Xykon doesn't have a version of Redcloak's amulet (which as I recall is Xykon's phylactery) around its neck like the three fakes.