RMS Oceanic
2007-03-22, 04:01 AM
Having read the thread "Why Two-Weapon Fighting Sucks" I've been able to summarize a number of problems with Two-Weapon Fighting, compared to Two-Handed Fighting:
1. A large feat tree required to gain more attacks (and abilities), shutting out useful stuff like combat expertise/cleave etc.
2. A very high dexterity requirement (19) for even the third attack, making it difficult/expensive for those outside rangerhood to attain it.
3. When denied from making a full attack, the TWFer suffers in its ability to deal damage.
4. Each individual attack applies separately to damage reduction, mean more damage is prevented from TWF than THF.
My solution to problem one is to take TWF and make it a growing feat, like Manyshot, so that you automatically gain the greater attacks when you meet the requirements. I have also done the same for two-weapon defense. To solve problem two, I have reduced the dexterity requirement for each level of TWF (15->13, 17->15, 19->17 and 25->19). Thus:
Two-Weapon Fighting
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make an extra attack with the weapon in your off hand with reduced penalties.
Prerequisites: Dex 13 (See text)
Benefits: The penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 2 for your primaty hand and 6 for your off hand.
When you have a BAB of +6 and a dexterity of at least 15, you gain a second off-hand attack at a -5 penalty.
When you have a BAB of +11 and a dexterity of at least 17, you gain a third off-hand attack at a -10 penalty.
When you have a BAB of +16 and a dexterity of at least 19, you gain a fourth off-hand attack at a -15 penalty.
Normal: The penalty for wielding two weapons is -6 for your primary hand and -10 for your off hand. These are reduced by 2 each if you only wield a light weapon in your hand.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting Style is considered to have this feat, and ignores the dexterity requirement for additional attacks, as long as his dexterity is at least 13, and he wears no or light armour.
Two-Weapon Defense
You can use your two weapons to bat away hostile attacks.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When wielding two weapons or a double weapon, you get a +1 parry bonus to AC. For each additional attack you would get with your off hand in a full attack (see Two-Weapon fighting), increase this bonus by +1 to a maximum of +4. When fighting defensively (such as using Combat Expertise) or taking the full defense action, double this bonus. e.g. A fighter with this feat who can make two off-hand attacks has a parry bonus of +2 to his AC, which is doubled to +4 when he fights defensively. You lose this bonus whenever you would lose your dexterity bonus to AC.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting style can select this feat, but he loses its benefits if his dexterity is less than 13, or he wears medium or heavy armour.
Note that I changed the bonus from shield to parry and linked it with the dexterity bonus, so it could stack with animated shields/improved buckler defense.
To solve problem three, I took the Two-Weapon Pounce and Dual Strike feats and amalgamated them into one feat:
Twin Strike
Your extensive training with two weapons allows you to fight running battles, and strike with both weapons after a charge.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +7, Dex 14
Benefit: Whenever you would make a single melee attack (such as a standard action, or at the end of a charge), you may instead choose to make one attack with each weapon you wield. If you do, each attack roll has a -2 penalty (negating the bonus of a charge, but still with the -2 to AC).
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting style can select this feat, but he loses its benefits if he wears medium or heavy armour.
Note for this feat you need a higher dex than the base requirement.
For problem four, I designed a brand new feat:
Two as One
You are skilled at striking with both your weapons simultaneously.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Twin Strike, Dex 15
Benefit: Whenever you would get to attack at least once with each of your weapons (such as a full attack or the Twin Strike feat), you may choose to make a single attack roll to count as both weapons at the same time. For this roll, take the lowest attack modifier of the two weapons and add a -2 penalty. If the attack hits, all the damage added together in one strike for the purpose of damage reduction. A critical roll has the lower threat range of the two weapons. If a critical roll is confirmed, all the damage (except for additional dice such as flaming or sneak attack) is multiplied by the lower multiplier of the weapons.
E.g. A fighter with a BAB of +11 and dexterity of 15 gets three attacks with his primary hand (a longsword with a threat range of 19-20 and multiplier of x2) and two with his off-hand (a waraxe with a threat range of 20 and a multiplier of x3). He could choose to take one of each attack to count as a single attack, leaving him with two more attacks with his primary hand and one with his off hand. He may repeat this one more time, leaving him with one primary-hand attack. If he chooses to attack this way, he only threatens a critical on a natural 20 (same as the axe) and a confirmed critical’s damage is only doubled (same as the longsword).
Normal: Whenever an attack is made with multiple weapons, each applies separately when considering damage reduction.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting style can select this feat, but he loses its benefits if he wears medium or heavy armour.
How are these? Do they cover the shortcomings that TWF has?
I also made up two extra feats that can be beneficial to TWF, but have tougher prerequisites to meet:
Ambidexterous
You can wield weapons equally well in either hand.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, First Level Only
Benefit: Both your hands are considered to be your primary hand. You can apply your full strength modifier to damage regardless of which hand you wield a weapon in. This still only lets you apply 1 ½ times your strength modifier when wielding a one or two-handed weapon in both hands. Treat both your hands as your primary hand for two-weapon fighting. (i.e. both have a -6 penalty without the Two-Weapon Fighting feat) You still incur a heavier penalty if you don’t fight with at least one light weapon or have the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat. If you would have a different number of attacks in your off hand than your primary hand, you may only make your maximum number of attacks with one hand (chosen at the beginning of each attack), and the other hand makes the lower number of attacks.
Three Hand Style Combat
You can fight with a Two Handed Weapon in one hand.
Prerequisites: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Monkey Grip, BAB +16, Str 19
Benefit: You may weild any two-handed weapon (such as a Greatsword or a Falchion) of your size in your primary hand. Treat this as a one-handed weapon one size category larger than you (-2 to attack rolls). You may still wield a one handed weapon or any shield in your off hand, but cannot weild a second two-handed weapon. You cannot wield an actual large (if medium) two-handed weapon in one hand.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat
How do these feats look?
EDIT: Clarified interaction with Rangers.
1. A large feat tree required to gain more attacks (and abilities), shutting out useful stuff like combat expertise/cleave etc.
2. A very high dexterity requirement (19) for even the third attack, making it difficult/expensive for those outside rangerhood to attain it.
3. When denied from making a full attack, the TWFer suffers in its ability to deal damage.
4. Each individual attack applies separately to damage reduction, mean more damage is prevented from TWF than THF.
My solution to problem one is to take TWF and make it a growing feat, like Manyshot, so that you automatically gain the greater attacks when you meet the requirements. I have also done the same for two-weapon defense. To solve problem two, I have reduced the dexterity requirement for each level of TWF (15->13, 17->15, 19->17 and 25->19). Thus:
Two-Weapon Fighting
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make an extra attack with the weapon in your off hand with reduced penalties.
Prerequisites: Dex 13 (See text)
Benefits: The penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 2 for your primaty hand and 6 for your off hand.
When you have a BAB of +6 and a dexterity of at least 15, you gain a second off-hand attack at a -5 penalty.
When you have a BAB of +11 and a dexterity of at least 17, you gain a third off-hand attack at a -10 penalty.
When you have a BAB of +16 and a dexterity of at least 19, you gain a fourth off-hand attack at a -15 penalty.
Normal: The penalty for wielding two weapons is -6 for your primary hand and -10 for your off hand. These are reduced by 2 each if you only wield a light weapon in your hand.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting Style is considered to have this feat, and ignores the dexterity requirement for additional attacks, as long as his dexterity is at least 13, and he wears no or light armour.
Two-Weapon Defense
You can use your two weapons to bat away hostile attacks.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When wielding two weapons or a double weapon, you get a +1 parry bonus to AC. For each additional attack you would get with your off hand in a full attack (see Two-Weapon fighting), increase this bonus by +1 to a maximum of +4. When fighting defensively (such as using Combat Expertise) or taking the full defense action, double this bonus. e.g. A fighter with this feat who can make two off-hand attacks has a parry bonus of +2 to his AC, which is doubled to +4 when he fights defensively. You lose this bonus whenever you would lose your dexterity bonus to AC.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting style can select this feat, but he loses its benefits if his dexterity is less than 13, or he wears medium or heavy armour.
Note that I changed the bonus from shield to parry and linked it with the dexterity bonus, so it could stack with animated shields/improved buckler defense.
To solve problem three, I took the Two-Weapon Pounce and Dual Strike feats and amalgamated them into one feat:
Twin Strike
Your extensive training with two weapons allows you to fight running battles, and strike with both weapons after a charge.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +7, Dex 14
Benefit: Whenever you would make a single melee attack (such as a standard action, or at the end of a charge), you may instead choose to make one attack with each weapon you wield. If you do, each attack roll has a -2 penalty (negating the bonus of a charge, but still with the -2 to AC).
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting style can select this feat, but he loses its benefits if he wears medium or heavy armour.
Note for this feat you need a higher dex than the base requirement.
For problem four, I designed a brand new feat:
Two as One
You are skilled at striking with both your weapons simultaneously.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Twin Strike, Dex 15
Benefit: Whenever you would get to attack at least once with each of your weapons (such as a full attack or the Twin Strike feat), you may choose to make a single attack roll to count as both weapons at the same time. For this roll, take the lowest attack modifier of the two weapons and add a -2 penalty. If the attack hits, all the damage added together in one strike for the purpose of damage reduction. A critical roll has the lower threat range of the two weapons. If a critical roll is confirmed, all the damage (except for additional dice such as flaming or sneak attack) is multiplied by the lower multiplier of the weapons.
E.g. A fighter with a BAB of +11 and dexterity of 15 gets three attacks with his primary hand (a longsword with a threat range of 19-20 and multiplier of x2) and two with his off-hand (a waraxe with a threat range of 20 and a multiplier of x3). He could choose to take one of each attack to count as a single attack, leaving him with two more attacks with his primary hand and one with his off hand. He may repeat this one more time, leaving him with one primary-hand attack. If he chooses to attack this way, he only threatens a critical on a natural 20 (same as the axe) and a confirmed critical’s damage is only doubled (same as the longsword).
Normal: Whenever an attack is made with multiple weapons, each applies separately when considering damage reduction.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat.
A Ranger who selects the Two-Weapon Fighting style can select this feat, but he loses its benefits if he wears medium or heavy armour.
How are these? Do they cover the shortcomings that TWF has?
I also made up two extra feats that can be beneficial to TWF, but have tougher prerequisites to meet:
Ambidexterous
You can wield weapons equally well in either hand.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, First Level Only
Benefit: Both your hands are considered to be your primary hand. You can apply your full strength modifier to damage regardless of which hand you wield a weapon in. This still only lets you apply 1 ½ times your strength modifier when wielding a one or two-handed weapon in both hands. Treat both your hands as your primary hand for two-weapon fighting. (i.e. both have a -6 penalty without the Two-Weapon Fighting feat) You still incur a heavier penalty if you don’t fight with at least one light weapon or have the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat. If you would have a different number of attacks in your off hand than your primary hand, you may only make your maximum number of attacks with one hand (chosen at the beginning of each attack), and the other hand makes the lower number of attacks.
Three Hand Style Combat
You can fight with a Two Handed Weapon in one hand.
Prerequisites: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Monkey Grip, BAB +16, Str 19
Benefit: You may weild any two-handed weapon (such as a Greatsword or a Falchion) of your size in your primary hand. Treat this as a one-handed weapon one size category larger than you (-2 to attack rolls). You may still wield a one handed weapon or any shield in your off hand, but cannot weild a second two-handed weapon. You cannot wield an actual large (if medium) two-handed weapon in one hand.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat
How do these feats look?
EDIT: Clarified interaction with Rangers.