Player keeps criticizing the edition and setting bogging down the game.

[Solamnicknight]

So I'm running Hoard of the Dragonqueen on Google hangouts with the roll20 app. I have a player who is a close friend of mine who keeps coming up with annoying criticisms for this edition, and the fact that I'm a newbie DM isn't helping. He'll complain about who casters are nerfed, he'll complain about the setting (Forgotten Realms) and how they keep changing it despite the fact that he hated the spellplague and the Realms is recovering from that now. He'll complain about the skills, and the lack of magic items. He also does these irritating comparisons saying they got that from pathfinder, or some obscure d20 ogl book that I don't own. (He is a diehard 3.5 fan.). Also he refuses to buy any 5e stuff so I have to look everything up for him which I wouldn't mind if he was actually trying to learn the system instead of complaining about it constantly. Despite the fact we are close friends this is starting to really annoy me since it is interrupting the flow of my game. What can I do to stop this without wrecking my friendship? :smallfrown:

[Madfellow]

Also he refuses to buy any 5e stuff so I have to look everything up for him which I wouldn't mind if he was actually trying to learn the system instead of complaining about it constantly. Despite the fact we are close friends this is starting to really annoy me since it is interrupting the flow of my game. What can I do to stop this without wrecking my friendship? :smallfrown:

Buy him a PHB as an early Christmas present and stop looking stuff up for him.

[Giant2005]

At least encourage him to download the free rules from the Wizards site.
If he actually took the time to familiarize himself with the game, he might not complain so much.

[pwykersotz]

I'd honestly loan him the PHB and ask him to please give it a full read before he comes back to game. It sounds like a lot of his complaints are due to not understanding the edition.

Alternately, direct him here and have him make a complaint thread. Sometimes the collective dogpile of the forums can help put things in perspective.

But really, it sounds like he needs a sounding board outside of game as well as a better understanding of the edition. I assume he's not just an embittered jerk who found his perfect game and won't ever change, it's likely just growing pains. Have conversations about the edition. The forums can answer any specific questions you find yourself having. After a couple weeks discussing the merits and flaws, he should complain less.

[rlc]

well, it makes sense that things would change over time in a living world, just like in our real life living world, so it makes absolutely no sense to hate that.
and if he's that upset with change, then i guess this edition isn't for him, even if his complaints just sound like he has a closed mind and wants to criticize things just to be contrary.
but yeah, i'd say just make jokes that lightheartedly imply he's being dumb about all of this and say that you're cool with playing 3.5 with him later. maybe tell him he's being a karen, if he'd get the reference.

[Solamnicknight]

I sent him the basic rules. I hope he gives this edition a chance at least. He can be very stubborn. The way I would put it is that it is like playing nothing but Playstation 2 and not getting a PS3 or 4.

[Kurald Galain]

The obvious answer is to find a game that you both enjoy, and play that together. I mean, if your friend clearly didn't like Chess or Settlers of Catan or whatnot, would you insist on playing that particular game with that particular person?

[Ghost Nappa]

I sent him the basic rules. I hope he gives this edition a chance at least. He can be very stubborn. The way I would put it is that it is like playing nothing but Playstation 2 and not getting a PS3 or 4.

It's also possible that he could be projecting his frustrations with something else in his life into his experiences with Fifth Edition. You're infinitely more likely to know how true or possible that is, but it's alternate (albeit questionable) possibility.

[Rallicus]

At least encourage him to download the free rules from the Wizards site.
If he actually took the time to familiarize himself with the game, he might not complain so much.

But he's clearly a grognard, dead set on playing the same bloated system for all eternity.

Take him to the side and voice your concerns, OP. Tell him his constant whining is getting on your nerves, that the unnecessary comparisons add nothing to the game. Tell him that your game isn't about a slim selection of viable builds, needlessly complex rules, and christmas tree magic items. It's about a bunch of people sitting down and having fun -- which he's directly opposing with his grognard-ness.

If he's a good friend, he'll understand. If he doesn't want to play 5e, politely show him the door, and maybe even ask if he'll run a 3.X game for you to show its superiority (*coughhackcough*).

There's also a ton of people on the internet just dying to get into a tabletop game, as they have no means to do so IRL. By dropping your friend you might be doing a huge favor to someone if you decide to recruit his replacement online.

[JAL_1138]

Wait, 3.5 diehards are grognards now? Oh god I feel old. Back in my day we THAC0'd and we liked it, you dagnabbed whippersnappers. :smalltongue:

[Rallicus]

Wait, 3.5 diehards are grognards now? Oh god I feel old. Back in my day we THAC0'd and we liked it, you dagnabbed whippersnappers. :smalltongue:

4th edition diehards are grognards now, gramps.

You're delving into great-great grognard territory!

[Madfellow]

Wait, 3.5 diehards are grognards now? Oh god I feel old. Back in my day we THAC0'd and we liked it, you dagnabbed whippersnappers. :smalltongue:


4th edition diehards are grognards now, gramps.

You're delving into great-great grognard territory!

3.5 diehards have been grognards since 2008. Pathfinders too, since it's technically a retro-clone. :smallsmile:

[Solamnicknight]

Probably should've mentioned this too, he's the DM of a 3.5 group I play in with my other friends. The reason I did the 5e with him is that our 5th player had to leave the 3.5 group due to work but, could still play online. The 5th player and this friend were close so I decided to be nice and run a game for them. However I have a hard time with the 3.5 rules as a DM so I used 5e which I understand and like better.

[Rallicus]

However I have a hard time with the 3.5 rules as a DM so I used 5e which I understand and like better.

Agreed. I really feel that 5e is the "DM's Edition" of D&D. This might be jumping the gun though, as there's still only two core books out, but the fact that Mearls and Co. so often answer with "up to the DM" leads me to believe that this is what this edition will be remembered for.

I'm quite familiar with 3.5 but there was never a single instance of me not cross-referencing the book when running it. Six sessions into my 5e game and two of them have included not opening the PHB once.

Anyway, there's only so much advice we can give. We don't know your friend personally, and we can't accurately judge how he might react to certain things. Good luck though, hopefully you can get him to open his eyes or (at the very least) shut his mouth.

[OldTrees1]

1) Some people vent to enable themselves to look past the "bad". So the existence of the criticism is not a concern.

2) The quantity of criticism is annoying to you. This is a 2 sided problem. In my normal optimistic view of humanity, I will already assume that you are less annoyed by it from reading point 1. However your friend needs to be alerted to how and to what degree they are annoying you. If you can make this clear in a way that does not put them on the defensive, then they will probably respond by toning it down(although they will not stop entirely). This is probably an acceptable compromise since they are probably using venting to reduce their annoyance at 5e.

3) The player seems unwilling to learn the new system. This is a problem. Again I would stick with the "explain the issue without putting them on the defensive" strategy. Explain how it makes it harder for you, it interrupts the game and it feels like he is not playing with you.




4) Hopefully he has toned down the criticisms and has learned the rules enough that the game is not being interrupted. Now it is time for the next step. This next step is a continuous process that should be taken at your own pace(which will accelerate as you become more experienced). You are the DM, you get firsthand data on how your group reacts to the rules you are using. Thus you have the capacity to have much better judgement than WotC. Take a note of when your players have a valid criticism of the rules. Then, if you feel skilled enough, take action to improve your game.

[Gnomes2169]

Your friend's name is Nardius, and he hails from the land of Grog. He has come to your table to tell you why you are having badwrongfun.

But more seriously, his behavior is a problem, and if you notice that you are having less fun because of it, then you can be absolutely certain that the rest of your players notice and are likely bothered by it as well. Talk to your other players first to see what they want to do with your friend. Ask if they want to give him suggestions on bahavioral changes, or if they even want to continue playing with him at all. After you get a group consensus (try to get it over text or e-mail), that's when you should confront your problem player.

My guess is that all of you still want to play together, even your grognard friend, and that everyone involved will be more than willing to move on and/ or drop the system complaints for the sake of doing so if he learns that his friends aren't having fun. If he's the only one with a problem, you should be able to get him to drop it rather easily if you are polite and get the consensus of the group first.

Questions to ask the all of your members:
"How are you liking the game so far?"
"What, if any, problems do you have with the game so far?"
"How do you feel the party dinamics, both in game and at the game table, are shaping up?"
"Do you like the flow of the game so far? If not, then how would you suggest I change it to make it feel more natural?"
"Are you having fun? If not, why?"

Add other questions or remove them as you see fit, and send them as a mass e-mail to all of your players (yes, even the problem one. While I can guess all of his answers, he still should not be silenced completely or judged without being able to contribute). You can request that they respond to you privately or publicly, though I do suggest private as they are more likely to talk about other players that way, and then take notes on all of their comments/ complaints. That's just general advice for DMing, but applies double here.

You should only send private e-mails to the other players talking about Nardius if other players don't bring him up themselves. If you find that your other players don't have a problem with Nardius, then you're unfortunately just going to have to grin and bear it. Maybe you can talk to him in private to tell him that you feel like he's going out of his way to disrupt and cut down your game and request for him to tone it down, but beyond that you're sunk.

If you do get feedback that the other players find him disruptive, inform them individually that you plan to confront him in private on his disruptive habits, and ask them if you can use their name when you do so. Be sure to reassure them that you are not trying to alienate or cut him out (basically, make sure they know they aren't choosing between friends without stating it), and make sure they know this is only so you can try to promote game table behavior that is fun for everybody. If/ when you confront Nardius, make sure he knows this as well, so that he doesn't feel like he is being lynched by his friends. Assure him that you and the others like playing with him, and that you just want the disruptive behavior to at least be kept to a minimum. If he agrees to it, then that's absolutely wonderful! If he blows up in your face about it, then you handled the situation as best you could, but there is no avoiding it, he's only in the game to disrupt it, and isn't trying to have fun... and you should politely ask for him to leave. I highly doubt you will have to, but remember that it is an option if nothing else seems to be working.

Hopefully if you follow those steps you should be able to keep anyone from feeling left out/ angered by the whole ordeal, and you will be able to get past this and just enjoy playing a game with one another. It will take some time, and you might even get through your next session before you get all of your feedback, but if you want to try and reach a satisfactory conclusion, then it will take some time no matter what. Just try to make sure you guys stay friends, no matter what.

[ProphetSword]

Suggest that instead of comparing this edition of D&D to a previous one and looking at what's not there, he should embrace what is there. Sometimes it can be hard not to compare, but the #1 thing I've learned about 5e so far is that you have to turn off all knowledge you have of previous editions and how things worked.

[T.G. Oskar]

Probably should've mentioned this too, he's the DM of a 3.5 group I play in with my other friends. The reason I did the 5e with him is that our 5th player had to leave the 3.5 group due to work but, could still play online. The 5th player and this friend were close so I decided to be nice and run a game for them. However I have a hard time with the 3.5 rules as a DM so I used 5e which I understand and like better.

I believe there are two questions here that should be key:

Since when has your friend DM'ed a 3.x game? Recent, or long and winded?
When your friend DMs, do you see lots of Core content, or a plethora of content that's non-Core?


I have a slight impression of what might be the problem, though at the root, you have someone who prefers an edition over other, and isn't willing to embrace (the definition of a grognard, or at least when used as an expletive).

I believe I've mentioned it before, but I also played 3.5 and I don't mind playing it again; in fact, I welcome playing it again. I haven't had much DMing experience with 5e (only one, and that was when the Basic Rules were released, combined with an earlier playtest), but after watching the dynamic, it shouldn't be so hard to deal with it. Mostly waiting until December for the DMG and some other content (and for a moment to DM, to be honest). Anyways: the reason I mention this is because, while the answer may be reflecting something on my part, it may lead to understanding why your player is so adamant at criticizing the game vocally instead of privately.

If it matters: I feel that your friend is undergoing DM exhaustion and wants to game 3.5 as a player. The only chance it has is with someone who prefers 5e at the moment, and is trying desperately to convince you (perhaps by pressure) to throw a 3.5 game. That's the reason why I made the first; the second is to gauge your friend's system mastery, because that may be what's causing all the symptoms; 5e may feel restrictive to someone who's used to twinking, since you end up playing mostly the same characters if you go at an optimization perspective (that, and to someone used to splats, playing a Core-only book will feel jarring).

[JAL_1138]

4th edition diehards are grognards now, gramps.

You're delving into great-great grognard territory!


3.5 diehards have been grognards since 2008. Pathfinders too, since it's technically a retro-clone. :smallsmile:

:smalleek: Excuse me...I'll be on the porch in my rocking chair complaining about my lumbago and hollering at the neighbor kids to stay off my lawn if anyone needs me... :smalltongue:


Probably should've mentioned this too, he's the DM of a 3.5 group I play in with my other friends. The reason I did the 5e with him is that our 5th player had to leave the 3.5 group due to work but, could still play online. The 5th player and this friend were close so I decided to be nice and run a game for them. However I have a hard time with the 3.5 rules as a DM so I used 5e which I understand and like better.

It could be worth mentioning too that he's comparing a stack of 3.5 books a foot high to just PHB1, MM1, no DMG yet, and two adventure modules, and also that the Basic rules only have the most straightforward versions of a few classes and don't have the full spell lists if you didn't already when you sent them.

As for FR complaints...ok, I can see that...I never cared for it much to start with, but they will not leave it alone (the trend started in the TSR era, it's not even a new thing--happened in the 1e-to-2e transition with the Time of Troubles). How many times have half its religions vanished because their god went foom, and its cosmology undergone a total overhaul? And then there was that time in 4e that a whole continent got replaced with another one so they could bring in Dragonborn. But his whingeing about it in-game to the point it aggravates you is bad grognarding form. If one is going to grognard out during the game, at least be funny about it, e.g., play up the "old geezer" schtick to take the sting out of any complaints, or build a crusty old fighter who says things like "Well, I used to be a paladin, but then my god stopped existin', so I figured gettin' religious again was a gamblin'-man's game. My sword's never just up and vanished on me, so that's all I put my faith in nowadays."

You might just straight up tell him that you understand where he's coming from, but his complaints are starting to grate on you, and politely ask if he's this upset at the changes if he wants to even keep playing, and that you'll completely understand if he'd rather stick to what he already knows he likes and bow out. If he says he'd like to stay, ask that he please keep his nitpicks and complaints to a minimum.

[mephnick]

He's stuck in the mindset of so many here, looking at 5e as if it's supposed to be 3.75. It's not. It's 5e.

Just like you can't judge 4e on the merits of 3.5, you can't judge 5e on the merits of 3.5 or 4e. It's a different system completely and should be treated as such. Otherwise you'll spend your life edition warring, and that sure is a waste of time.

[silveralen]

There is always "you are getting on my last nerve, stop bitching". Depends on what sort of friend he is though.

[Thrudd]

So I'm running Hoard of the Dragonqueen on Google hangouts with the roll20 app. I have a player who is a close friend of mine who keeps coming up with annoying criticisms for this edition, and the fact that I'm a newbie DM isn't helping. He'll complain about who casters are nerfed, he'll complain about the setting (Forgotten Realms) and how they keep changing it despite the fact that he hated the spellplague and the Realms is recovering from that now. He'll complain about the skills, and the lack of magic items. He also does these irritating comparisons saying they got that from pathfinder, or some obscure d20 ogl book that I don't own. (He is a diehard 3.5 fan.). Also he refuses to buy any 5e stuff so I have to look everything up for him which I wouldn't mind if he was actually trying to learn the system instead of complaining about it constantly. Despite the fact we are close friends this is starting to really annoy me since it is interrupting the flow of my game. What can I do to stop this without wrecking my friendship? :smallfrown:

My answer to him: "chill, dude. Stop comparing 5e to 3.5, it's a different game. If nobody else likes 5e, either, maybe we'll go back to 3.5 for the next campaign."

[rlc]

Not to mention, they took those things from elsewhere because they worked well, so whining about that is retarded.

[SaintRidley]

The obvious answer is to find a game that you both enjoy, and play that together. I mean, if your friend clearly didn't like Chess or Settlers of Catan or whatnot, would you insist on playing that particular game with that particular person?

It's more like your friend who wants to play Monopoly or Risk during boardgame night, and you say sure because everyone wants to play Monopoly or Risk, but you just got Star Wars Monopoly or Risk: Legacy and want to give them a whirl, and he clearly doesn't like it on the principle that it's not in every single way identical to plain Monopoly or Risk. Though I do agree - in that case I wouldn't insist on playing with them and would indeed ask them to either actually try the game or leave.

[Lokiare]

{scrubbed}

[HorridElemental]

{scrubbed}

[McBars]

{scrubbed}.

That's not a normal reaction if the guy who has invested his time into running it is your friend out of game...unless you're a crappy friend.

By the way, have you had any luck getting invited to a 5E game yet?

[Kurald Galain]

It's more like your friend who wants to play Monopoly or Risk during boardgame night, and you say sure because everyone wants to play Monopoly or Risk, but you just got Star Wars Monopoly or Risk: Legacy and want to give them a whirl, and he clearly doesn't like it on the principle that it's not in every single way identical to plain Monopoly or Risk.

Bear in mind that not everybody will consider 5E to be the same game as 3E or 4E. For example:


My answer to him: "chill, dude. Stop comparing 5e to 3.5, it's a different game."

[SaintRidley]

It's a different game, yes, but it's also the same game in some ways - the style of game. It's still D&D, after all. It's not like he got tricked into playing All Flesh or something - he's just playing a different version of the game than the one he wants to play (and which his attitude suggests he believes is the only real/correct version of the game).

[Starchild7309]

Well I didn't see anyone say this, but maybe they did.

I have been playing 3.5 for a long time and 5ed was hard for me to grasp at first. It wasn't so much the rules or that fact that I wasn't super optimized or anything like that. I think even 3.5, if you get numbers and the concept of chance, you have a safety net with you. IE. If I have an AC of X and I am level Y that means that most things I fight are going to be attacking at a +Z and therefore I know what my chances of surviving the fight or even thriving in a fight.

I also know a few particular people that went from 3.5 to 5 who were rules and numbers lawyers...nothing could be done if it wasn't expressly spelled out in a book somewhere. Those people also weren't a fan of 5th, at first.

What really hooked them all on playing? That 5th gives each class a chance to shine if the DM lets them. It might not be in the adventure you are running, but maybe give him that chance to really shine in game. Give him a reason to really like his character and invest in it instead of looking at the mechanics or each rule comparison.

An example: I have a 2nd lvl light cleric who after the first encounter was tapped out of everything but cantrips, but my DM knows me and the rest of the group is more of a hack and slash type so he gave me the chance to be the face, have encounters that didn't require and in fact worked better with out any combat. Also, he knows I am the type to work on strategy, even on the fly, so he made up a few encounters that allowed me to be the battlefield general.

While 5th might win over some just by its streamlined design and new and interesting ways it has players play, some people just need to be given a reason to like it. So get him a PHB, let him borrow yours, whatever, get him to understand the rules and then get him involved, give him something to do other than complain.

Oh and what class is he?

[Galen]

I would say, the best way to keep him as a friend is NOT to keep him in the game. The presence of one such toxic player is enough to derail the campaign, as the DM expends more and more mental resources just dealing with the problem player, and good players are thus indirectly punished.

Hang out with him socially outside of D&D night, or find another game you can play, away from your D&D group.

[Nicol Bolas]

What really hooked them all on playing? That 5th gives each class a chance to shine if the DM lets them. .

That...is not a plus.

[silveralen]

That...is not a plus.

On the other hand, it's literally true in every game. DM can always screw someone over if they want.

[Galen]

In that 5e is unlike 3.5e, where some classes outright need DM fiat to shine, while others can't shine even with DM fiat.

In 5e, in order not to let a particular class to shine, the DM must be willing to proactively ruin the game, which I assume never happens.

[Vogonjeltz]

I would say, the best way to keep him as a friend is NOT to keep him in the game. The presence of one such toxic player is enough to derail the campaign, as the DM expends more and more mental resources just dealing with the problem player, and good players are thus indirectly punished.

Hang out with him socially outside of D&D night, or find another game you can play, away from your D&D group.

This is so very true. One person who is acting in bad faith throwing tantrums will make a game a chore, not a joy.

If he isn't willing to appreciate the improvements from 3.5 to 5th, just don't play it with him. You'll be saving yourself (and him) from the emotional distress of dealing with his outbursts.

[Lokiare]

In that 5e is unlike 3.5e, where some classes outright need DM fiat to shine, while others can't shine even with DM fiat.

In 5e, in order not to let a particular class to shine, the DM must be willing to proactively ruin the game, which I assume never happens.

Actually you can stop a lot of classes from shining by accidentally putting an encounter together with lots of low level creatures or simply grappling them. Or focus firing them. Or whatever. It's so easy DM's will be doing it on accident all the time.

[Pex]

It's the player's fault to keep harping on the system while playing the game. That ruins the atmosphere of play and makes the event not fun. He needs to stop it or just not play.

It is not the player's fault he's not liking 5E and preferring 3E. He is not wrong in thinking 5E is not an improvement over 3E. He is not wrong in liking 3E in every way.

[Sartharina]

Actually you can stop a lot of classes from shining by accidentally putting an encounter together with lots of low level creatures or simply grappling them. Or focus firing them. Or whatever. It's so easy DM's will be doing it on accident all the time.
Lots of low-level creatures is only a problem if the DM fails to account for how they affect XP. Grappling does almost nothing, and very few creatures can have a real chance of success at it. The only RPGs where focus-firing isn't a threat is those that provide reactive defenses that discourage continued attacks. I don't know any like that.

Even then, a player can still overcome the odds if they think about what they're doing.

[Lokiare]

Lots of low-level creatures is only a problem if the DM fails to account for how they affect XP. Grappling does almost nothing, and very few creatures can have a real chance of success at it. The only RPGs where focus-firing isn't a threat is those that provide reactive defenses that discourage continued attacks. I don't know any like that.

Even then, a player can still overcome the odds if they think about what they're doing.

I've run a few test encounters and the xp adjustment doesn't make up for the exponential number of attacks from multiple monsters. Grappling holds the target still while everyone else dogpiles, conga lines or ranged focus fires the target. There are creatures that auto grapple on a successful attack and those that have very high grapple checks.

As to reactive defenses try fire shield, and others. Except only casters have them.

[Shadow]

I've run a few test encounters

Let us know when you actually play, and after that maybe.... just maybe.... we'll listen to your rants and take you at your word. Because all you ever do is complain and cry about the system, even though you yourself admit that you don't have experience with the system.

Oh, wait, we were talking about grognards, weren't we?

[McBars]

Let us know when you actually play, and after that maybe.... just maybe.... we'll listen to your rants and take you at your word. Because all you ever do is compain and cry about the system, even though you yourself admit that you don't have experience with the syetm.

Oh, wait, we were talking about grognards, weren't we?

He's said he cant get invited to a game on roll20. I bet if he asked on this forum, any number of DM's would be happy to give him a spot.

[Lokiare]

{scrubbed}

[Kurald Galain]

That 5th gives each class a chance to shine if the DM lets them.
That's true in pretty much every RPG system. A good DM can make any table fun, but it's the DM doing it and that doesn't say anything either way about the system being used.


On the other hand, it's literally true in every game.
Yep.

[McBars]

{scrubbed}

How could anyone turn that down?

[Rfkannen]

It's a different game, yes, but it's also the same game in some ways - the style of game. It's still D&D, after all. It's not like he got tricked into playing All Flesh or something - he's just playing a different version of the game than the one he wants to play (and which his attitude suggests he believes is the only real/correct version of the game).

You should tottaly for one session just use the all flesh rules for no reason.

[ProphetSword]

{scrubbed}



You missed the part where I said he should stop looking at what's not there and embrace what *is* there. The primary reason people seem to complain about 5e when they compare it to 3.5 is because they are looking at what is not there. It reminds me of the old-timers on another forum who complain that any version of D&D that doesn't include THAC0 isn't a true version of D&D. If your mindset is that you won't enjoy something, you won't enjoy it. The only way to enjoy it is to open your mind to it and let go of whatever is holding you back.



Sorry, but if you've experienced something better and are asked to go back to something inferior, the normal reaction is to complain loudly about it.

I know. I'd feel that way too if someone made me go back to an inferior game of 3.5.

[Madfellow]

I know. I'd feel that way too if someone made me go back to an inferior game of 3.5.

Ohh, snap!

[Shadow]

I know. I'd feel that way too if someone made me go back to an inferior game of 3.5.

Exactly this.
Over the past couple of months 5e has become my favorite edition to date.

[JAL_1138]

It reminds me of the old-timers on another forum who complain that any version of D&D that doesn't include THAC0 isn't a true version of D&D.

As a 2e fan who's currently in a 4e campaign, I can understand the player's impulse to gripe. I don't truck with this "streamlined rules" nonsense. Back in my day, if you wanted to figure out if you hit an enemy, it was ten miles in the snow, uphill both ways! And we liked it that way, you dagnabbed whippersnappers!

It's possible to voice edition gripes in-game without aggravating anyone if you keep it infrequent, have a sense of humor about it, and poke fun at yourself and your favorite edition in the same breath (and take the time to learn the game, and save the serious criticisms for forums and/or other grognards). You get to get the gripes out of your system and the group gets a chuckle at the self-deprecation instead of getting hacked off at the negativity. It's a shame OP's player is more concerned with needling the edition than playing the game.

[Safety Sword]

{scrubbed}

I get the feeling that your "try" will be less than an open minded one.

Look, it's this simple. Some people like the numbers and some prefer the hand waving. I DM v3.5 and v5.0 and I can tell you from experience that it's the group you have that determines which system is "better".

I DM for a bunch of people with PhDs and they prefer 3.5. It's their kind of challenge, optimizing numbers and theorizing whether this build of that build will defeat challenges. My other group has people who picked their classes without even looking at the class descriptions. "I want to be a paladin". 5.0 suits them better because they could make and start using characters without having complete system mastery to start.

TL;DR: Play the version you enjoy the most. If someone else is ruining your experience, tell them to find a game that suits them better.

[Solamnicknight]

Hey I talked to two of my players and they aren't too concerned about it. The one player who knows the guy said if he interrupts with the edition warring I should just politely tell him not to interrupt my game.

[Safety Sword]

Hey I talked to two of my players and they aren't too concerned about it. The one player who knows the guy said if he interrupts with the edition warring I should just politely tell him not to interrupt my game.

Politely, at first :smallwink:

[Lokiare]

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[Safety Sword]

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Honestly I have very little experience actually playing 4E. All of the classes just seemed to be exactly the same abilities re-skinned, so it never caught my attention enough to bother trying to play it. I think that classes having different abilites is actually a really good thing for D&D, and 5E does it pretty well in my experience so far.

[Shadow]

Honestly I have very little experience actually playing 4E. All of the classes just seemed to be exactly the same abilities re-skinned, so it never caught my attention enough to bother trying to play it. I think that classes having different abilites is actually a really good thing for D&D, and 5E does it pretty well in my experience so far.

Exactly.
It's a difference in philosophy.
Some players, such as myself and you, prefer to actually have classes that feel and play differently from one another. Generally speaking, we prefer 2e, 3e, 5e hands down (although I personally hate the mess that 3e eventually became).
Some players prefer to have classes that all essentially work exactly the same way, where the differences are generally only fluff and nothing more. They generally prefer 4e hands down.
Those players will argue that each of the different classes can be an uniquie snowflake, but that's just an illusion. No matter which class you play, they all *feel* exactly the same.

[Safety Sword]

Exactly.
It's a difference in philosophy.
Some players, such as myself and you, prefer to actually have classes that feel and play differently from one another. Generally speaking, we prefer 2e, 3e, 5e hands down (although I personally hate the mess that 3e eventually became).
Some players prefer to have classes that all essentially work exactly the same way, where the differences are generally only fluff and nothing more. They generally prefer 4e hands down.

I'd click a like button if there was one. All in all it's horses for courses guys. Find a game and group you enjoy playing with and dive in.

[Lokiare]

Honestly I have very little experience actually playing 4E. All of the classes just seemed to be exactly the same abilities re-skinned, so it never caught my attention enough to bother trying to play it. I think that classes having different abilites is actually a really good thing for D&D, and 5E does it pretty well in my experience so far.

{scrubbed}


Exactly.
It's a difference in philosophy.
Some players, such as myself and you, prefer to actually have classes that feel and play differently from one another. Generally speaking, we prefer 2e, 3e, 5e hands down (although I personally hate the mess that 3e eventually became).
Some players prefer to have classes that all essentially work exactly the same way, where the differences are generally only fluff and nothing more. They generally prefer 4e hands down.

See above. Please quit spreading false hoods. Just say you didn't like 4E and move on, or find out why you actually didn't like it and be precise. For instance none of the classes in 4E play the same at all. Not even close. They do however recover their abilities in the exact same way. So you don't like recovery of abilities in the same way? Well just say that then.

[Shadow]

See above. Please quit spreading false hoods. Just say you didn't like 4E and move on, or find out why you actually didn't like it and be precise. For instance none of the classes in 4E play the same at all. Not even close. They do however recover their abilities in the exact same way. So you don't like recovery of abilities in the same way? Well just say that then.

I'll say it. I hate 4e. I despised it.
And yes, every single class felt the same. I routinely got my character intentionally killed so I could roll another one, because I wasn't enjoying teh class I chose. And Every. Single. Time. the new choice felt *exactly* the same as the last one.
Sure, they each had their own itsy bitsy tiny little differences but at the end of the day they were all virtually identical in the long run.

You'll notice that I edited in a portion while Saftey was typing that said:
Those players will argue that each of the different classes can be an uniquie snowflake, but that's just an illusion. No matter which class you play, they all *feel* exactly the same.

Which is exactly what you just tried to do.

edit:
Fighter: Should I use: this at-will ability that deals 1[W] + relevant mod in melee
this encounter that deals 2[W] + relevant mod in melee
this daily that deals 3[W] + relevant mod with half damage on a miss
Rogue: Should I use: this at-will ability that deals 1[W] + relevant mod in melee or range
this encounter that deals 2[W] + relevant mod in melee or range
this daily that deals 3[W] + relevant mod with half damage on a miss
Wizard: Should I use: this at-will ability that deals 2d4 + relevant mod at range
this encounter that deals 2d6 + relevant mod at range with a small rider
this daily that deals 3d6 + relevant mod with half damage on a miss
Oh, yeah. They're all such unique snowflakes....

[JAL_1138]

Its just sad they didn't do this in 5E with all of its diss-associative mechanics that don't match up to the fluff.


Dissociated mechanics aren't fluff being inaccurate as to who's best at melee. Dissociated mechanics are things like only being able to bonk someone on the head with a sword pommel once before taking a five-minute (4e) or one hour(!) (5e) breather, despite being able to swing a greatclub the size of a tree for the rest of an hour-long combat without getting too tired. 4e martials run almost entirely on them. So do the 5e Battlemaster's superiority dice, or the Fighter's Second Wind or Action Surge generally (and I don't give them a pass either; stretching short rests to an hour makes it even more ludicrous). They crop up whenever a game mechanic doesn't match up with how a character would think about using their abilities; e.g., "I should save my bonk-someone-with-a-pommel-once-per-fight power for the big guy over there, because it's wasted on this minion since I couldn't try it again even if the big guy were to give me an opening."

Edit: fixed a sentence that got cut off.

[JoeJ]

Dissociated mechanics aren't fluff being inaccurate as to who's best at melee. Dissociated mechanics are things like only being able to bonk someone on the head with a sword pommel once before taking a five-minute (4e) or one hour(!) (5e) breather, despite being able to swing a greatclub the size of a tree for the rest of an hour-long combat without getting too tired. 4e martials run almost entirely on them. So do the 5e Battlemaster's superiority dice, or the Fighter's Second Wind or Action Surge generally (and I don't give them a pass either; stretching short rests to an hour makes it even more ludicrous). They crop up whenever a game mechanic doesn't match up with how a character would think about using their abilities; e.g., "I should save my bonk-someone-with-a-pommel-once-per-fight power for the big guy over there, because it's wasted on this minion since I couldn't try it again even if the big guy were to give me an opening."

Edit: fixed a sentence that got cut off.

Not quite. Limiting the ability to an arbitrary unit of time, say once per day or once per encounter, is dissociated. Tying it to a rest is associated because it does match the way the character would think about it. Resting implies being getting tired, so this is an ability that the character can only use a few times before their stamina runs out and they have to take a break. It might be a bad mechanic, either because it's unbalanced or because it doesn't do a very good job of modeling the ability, but it's not dissociated.

[Safety Sword]

Just say you didn't like it and move on.

.
That is what I said. It didn't capture my attention because the mechanics seemed boring from the outset. I didn't like it.

The classes didn't even look like D&D classes to me. It had no feeling. I think it was a terrible way to take the line. The number of people I know who moved away from playing D&D (or who still play 3.5) when it was the current edition would point at it being a bad way to go.

I DIDN'T LIKE IT.

Edit: To return to the point of my post in the first place: If you like 4E, continue playing it. Great for you. If you like 5E, continue playing it. Great for you. Some will, some won't, so what?

[JAL_1138]

It might be a bad mechanic, either because it's unbalanced or because it doesn't do a very good job of modeling the ability, but it's not dissociated.

Fair 'nuff. It still has the same feel to it, to me, though, when applied to non-magic sorts of things. Drives me bonkers. That said, I like most of the other aspects of 5th better, if looking at it in a vacuum. But I have a great gaming group and DM for 4th, so I'm having fun with the game even if the system makes me want to pull my hair out.

I have to give 4th some credit, though, AEDU is a field day for relatively easy to balance homebrewing. I'm not entirely sure when the last time the DM ran a Monster Manual enemy even was. Couple months, at least. 5th looks to me like it's going to be a smidge harder if you're worried about keeping the players alive without them being willing to run from combat or risking a quick and nasty death from bad dice rolls (though I don't mind that one bit, a lot of people do). Not as hard to balance as TSR-era stuff where "well, stop rolling bad" was about all you could say to someone who got killed by a barnyard goat in one round as a first-level transmuter (hi *waves*) or 3.5 stuff, but harder.

[Nicol Bolas]

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[Safety Sword]

It's infuriating to see how wrong you are and how little you care about being wrong

You get infuriated with people who have different opinions on how to play "magic elf games"?

Relax. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

[JAL_1138]

You get infuriated with people who have different opinions on how to play "magic elf games"?

That's a sacred tradition of tabletop roleplay going back to the Woodgrain Box edition.

[Kurald Galain]

You get infuriated with people who have different opinions on how to play "magic elf games"?

You're playing Magic Elf games? Pffff. In the 21st century, clearly Enchanted Dwarf games are where it's at.

[Safety Sword]

That's a sacred tradition of tabletop roleplay going back to the Woodgrain Box edition.

I tried not to giggle and failed.

I miss my bend bars and lift gates percentages...

Edit:

You're playing Magic Elf games? Pffff. In the 21st century, clearly Enchanted Dwarf games are where it's at.

21st Century is overrated from what I've seen so far. Then again, apparently I'm doing this all wrong, so.... :smallamused:

[Lokiare]

I'll say it. I hate 4e. I despised it.
And yes, every single class felt the same. I routinely got my character intentionally killed so I could roll another one, because I wasn't enjoying teh class I chose. And Every. Single. Time. the new choice felt *exactly* the same as the last one.
Sure, they each had their own itsy bitsy tiny little differences but at the end of the day they were all virtually identical in the long run.

You'll notice that I edited in a portion while Saftey was typing that said:
Those players will argue that each of the different classes can be an uniquie snowflake, but that's just an illusion. No matter which class you play, they all *feel* exactly the same.

Which is exactly what you just tried to do.

edit:
Fighter: Should I use: this at-will ability that deals 1[W] + relevant mod in melee
this encounter that deals 2[W] + relevant mod in melee
this daily that deals 3[W] + relevant mod with half damage on a miss
Rogue: Should I use: this at-will ability that deals 1[W] + relevant mod in melee or range
this encounter that deals 2[W] + relevant mod in melee or range
this daily that deals 3[W] + relevant mod with half damage on a miss
Wizard: Should I use: this at-will ability that deals 2d4 + relevant mod at range
this encounter that deals 2d6 + relevant mod at range with a small rider
this daily that deals 3d6 + relevant mod with half damage on a miss
Oh, yeah. They're all such unique snowflakes....

This indicates you have very little experience with 4E or intentionally chose options that mimicked each other.

for instance just a quick look through the powers by class:
Cleric:
*At-Will Choice1-Make an attack and if you hit cause -2 to attacks and the next ally to hit it gets healed by your Wis mod. (Optional) Healing Word: heal 1d6 + surge value on an ally as a minor action.
*At-Will Choice2-Make an attack and whether you hit or miss you and an ally have resistance to damage equal to your Con mod.
*Encounter (non-channel divinity)-Make an attack on a hit the target takes a penalty to attacks and defense equal 1 + your charisma modifier.
*Daily-Make an attack and on a hit deal twice as much weapon damage and the target is set on fire taking 5 damage at the start of each of its turn, at the end of its turn it makes a saving throw with no modifiers against DC 10, if it succeeds the fire is put out. If it makes an attack it can't roll this save.
Fighter:
*At-Will Choice 1-Make an attack, if you hit you grab the target but let go at the end of your next turn.
*At-Will Choice 2-Make an attack, if you hit gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier
*Encounter-Make an attack, instead of normal damage the target is dazed and you gain temp hp equal to your Con mod. If you use the right weapon you also deal damage equal to your con mod.
*Daily-Make an attack, if you hit deal your weapon damage three times and the target takes a -2 if they attack anyone other than you, and if they are in melee range you get to make another attack. You can also make another attack if they try to take a 5 foot step while in melee range. If you miss with the main attack, you can do this again until you hit with it.
Rogue:
*At-Will Choice 1-Make an attack, if you hit deal damage and if you are grabbed you escape the grab. If you are hidden you can add your sneak attack damage.
*At-Will Choice 2-Make an attack, whether you hit or miss you can move 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks and make a stealth check to become hidden (which immediately ends if you don't have some kind of cover or concealment). If you are hidden you can add your sneak attack damage.
*Encounter-(Must be trained in acrobatics) Make an attack against each enemy adjacent to you. You can then move through any enemies space you hit by 5 feet times the number of enemies you hit without provoking opportunity attacks. If you are hidden you can add your sneak attack damage to one target.
*Daily-Attack each enemy in a 15 by 15 foot area that is adjacent to you. You must have one piece of ammo or weapon (dagger) for each target. If you hit deal damage as normal and the targets are blinded.
Wizard:
*At-Will Choice1-You and each ally next you have one piece of ammo start on fire. The next attack made with this ammo before the end of your next turn deals +1d6 fire damage.
*At-Will Choice2-Make an attack against an enemy within 10 feet. If you hit they either use a basic attack against a target of your choice or move 15 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.
*Encounter1(choose after a long rest to prepare this encounter power or the other one)-Make an attack against each creature in a 15 foot square within 50 feet. If you hit deal 1d6+int mod cold damage and the target is knocked prone. The area you hit is iced over causing anyone moving through it to have to use 10 feet of movement to move 5 feet until the end of your next turn.
*Encounter2(choose after a long rest to prepare this encounter power or the other one)-Make an attack against each enemy within 10 feet of you. If you hit deal radiant damage and push the target away 5 feet per point of wisdom modifier you have. Allies in the area gain temporary hit points equal to your wisdom modifier.
*Daily1(choose after a long rest to prepare this daily power or the other one)-Make an attack against all creatures in a 25 foot square if you hit deal damage and move the target 5 feet without causing them to provoke an opportunity attack. If you use a minor action to concentrate you create a zone and every round you can move a creature inside 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks. If you concentrate harder by using your move action you can move the zone 30 feet in any direction.

It looks to me like you saw the keyword "[W]" or "1d8" and you threw the book down in disgust over everyone using the same terminology. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get from your posts on the subject. Maybe its that they deal damage as well as having effects on spells, or maybe its because every class can nova. I have no clue what your real gripe is, but 'they all play the same' is a flat out cop-out.

Of course as I said earlier 3E and before only had two choices play a caster with spells that each had their own unique rules or play a non-caster who simply attacked and added on varying amounts of damage. 4E is way more varied than that. It simply gives out its resources on the same schedule for each class (until Essentials).

Now its perfectly fine if you don't like 4E. Just don't make blanket phrases that flat out aren't true.

[Shadow]

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[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread locked for review.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread re-opened after review. Please try to keep it civil, folks.

[Lokiare]

The Winged Mod: Thread re-opened after review. Please try to keep it civil, folks.
{Scrubbed}

[Perseus]

The Winged Mod: Thread re-opened after review. Please try to keep it civil, folks.


{Scrub the party, scrub the post}

Ok so like... I've agreed with a lot of your points about 4e and 5e in the past but seriously this is the funniest thing I've ever read on giantitp.

Can anyone tell me if it against the rules to Sig this?

[Lokiare]

Ok so like... I've agreed with a lot of your points about 4e and 5e in the past but seriously this is the funniest thing I've ever read on giantitp.

Can anyone tell me if it against the rules to Sig this?
{Scrubbed}

[Perseus]

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[silveralen]

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To the OP: I know you said you talked to the others at your table, did you talk to the player himself yet? Or run a session? Just curious if it is resolved.

[obryn]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
You have got to be kidding me.

[McBars]

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[JAL_1138]

Folks, please, the thread just got locked yesterday. Let's not argue who's trolling who. I think most of it is likely to be plain and simple failures of communication and tone on all sides that just get way out of hand.

Let's all please get back to arguing about magic elf games instead of about each other and each other's motives before the thread gets locked again.

Edit: I'm not touching the bit about the EULA one way or the other with a ten-foot pole, and I've poked aboleths with a ten foot pole. (...the 'leth had illusory terrain up and I didn't see it, we almost TPKd.)

[McBars]

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[Perseus]

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[Nicol Bolas]

{scrub the original, scrub the quote}

They really do. This place is the last bastion on the internet for 3.5 fanaticism.

It's why so many people fled to rpgforums back in 2009.

[McBars]

They really do. This place is the last bastion on the internet for 3.5 fanaticism.

It's why so many people fled to rpgforums back in 2009.

How do you figure? If anything many of the people who responded to the op's topic sided against the player who is stubbornly holding onto 3.5.

Whatever your reason for bringing that up, I don't see what it has to do with the OPs dilemma

[silveralen]

They really do. This place is the last bastion on the internet for 3.5 fanaticism.

It's why so many people fled to rpgforums back in 2009.

Like... one person supported the disruptive player.

I think most people around here like 5e. A few 4e or 3e holdouts, though why they are posting in a 5e subforum is a matter of conjecture. At least the OP's friend has a reason to be there in that his friend runs it.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: While the original purpose of this thread was not inherently against the rules, it has now veered so far off topic that I don't see it getting back on track. Thread locked permanently.