Need a ruling regarding PrC entry!

[Holycram]

Hey guys..

So I'm building this NPC for a campaign I'm running and, while I know as the dm I can simply rule this is ok, I'd like to hear all of your opinions. The NPC is supposed to be a fairly unique spellcaster, just something to keep my PCs guessing, as one of 'em is quite versed in the various classes. That said, he's a cleric 7/Nar Demonbinder 2/Mystic Theurge X. Herein lies the question though. The prereqs for Mystic Theurge state:

" Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells."

However, Demonbinder only gives arcane spells of 4th-8th level. I guess by RAW this class combination doesn't work... or does it? Should it?

[Uncle Pine]

Yes, a Cleric 7/Nar Demonbinder 2 doesn't meet the requirements for Mystic Theurge. However, a Cleric 7/Nar Demonbinder 2 with access to Anyspell (via Spell domain or item) or with the Alternative Source Spell feat (Dragon Magazine #325)...

[Holycram]

Oooohh Snaaaaap! I didn't even know Anyspell existed! But wouldn't this qualify a 5th level cleric to enter Mystic Theurge at 6th level, without actually having an arcane CL?

[Uncle Pine]

Oooohh Snaaaaap! I didn't even know Anyspell existed! But wouldn't this qualify a 5th level cleric to enter Mystic Theurge at 6th level, without actually having an arcane CL?

Sure thing. Although you wouldn't benefit from the first half of the "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" class feature.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Demonbinders are prepared casters, right? As such they could use a feat out of Lost Empires of Faerun to net 2nd level slots to qualify.

[Venger]

Sure thing. Although you wouldn't benefit from the first half of the "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" class feature.

that's what southern magician is for

[Holycram]

Demonbinders are prepared casters, right? As such they could use a feat out of Lost Empires of Faerun to net 2nd level slots to qualify.

What feat would that be?


that's what southern magician is for

Southern Magician... Ooh, what's that? :O



On a slightly related note, it isn't explicitly stated in the Demonbinder PrC that they are subject to arcane spell failure... Are they?

[WhamBamSam]

Use a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium) to add some spells to your Nar Demonbinder list, including a 2nd level one that you can cast out of a 4th level spell slot.

[Venger]

Southern Magician... Ooh, what's that? :O

On a slightly related note, it isn't explicitly stated in the Demonbinder PrC that they are subject to arcane spell failure... Are they?

I was joking, as we use blue text for sarcasm on this forum.

southern magician is a feat that lets a divine caster cast some of his spells as arcane every day (or vica versa)

it is sometimes used in theoretical optimization for early entry since it stands on RAW ground that's shaky at best.

I was joking that you should take it to make cleric an "arcane casting class" and progress it twice for each mystic theurge level.

also, careful about the nomenclature, demonbinder is a separate, unrelated class from nar demonbinder, because everything must be as confusing as possible at all times.

arcane classes that don't mention any special immunity or resistance to ASF, such as bard or dread necromancer are subject to its normal penalties unless you have some other way of mitigating it. the twilight enchantment for armor lessens it by 10%, so you could at least wear a mithral chain shirt

[Extra Anchovies]

arcane classes that don't mention any special immunity or resistance to ASF, such as bard or dread necromancer are subject to its normal penalties unless you have some other way of mitigating it. the twilight enchantment for armor lessens it by 10%, so you could at least wear a mithral chain shirt

Or you can save some money and get a mithral githcraft chain shirt, with thistledown suit. 0% ASF, 0 ACP, and is fully nonmagical.

[Venger]

Or you can save some money and get a mithral githcraft chain shirt, with thistledown suit. 0% ASF, 0 ACP, and is fully nonmagical.

that's true also, but a DM might whine about it

[Holycram]

I was joking, as we use blue text for sarcasm on this forum.

southern magician is a feat that lets a divine caster cast some of his spells as arcane every day (or vica versa)

it is sometimes used in theoretical optimization for early entry since it stands on RAW ground that's shaky at best.

I was joking that you should take it to make cleric an "arcane casting class" and progress it twice for each mystic theurge level.

also, careful about the nomenclature, demonbinder is a separate, unrelated class from nar demonbinder, because everything must be as confusing as possible at all times.

arcane classes that don't mention any special immunity or resistance to ASF, such as bard or dread necromancer are subject to its normal penalties unless you have some other way of mitigating it. the twilight enchantment for armor lessens it by 10%, so you could at least wear a mithral chain shirt


K thx I'm new here, been lurking for a while but that's it :P


Or you can save some money and get a mithral githcraft chain shirt, with thistledown suit. 0% ASF, 0 ACP, and is fully nonmagical.

Dang... wtf is all that?? :/

[Extra Anchovies]

K thx I'm new here, been lurking for a while but that's it :P



Dang... wtf is all that?? :/

Githcraft = crafted by a Githyanki or Githzerai. Mundane weapon/armor template from DMGII, costs 600 GP, main effect is -5% arcane spell failure chance.

Thistledown Suit = mundane item that can be added to any metal armor (I forget the source) that increases armor check penalty by 1 but reduces arcane spell failure by 5%.

Arcane spell failure: 20% (chain shirt) - 10% (mithral) -5% (githcraft) -5% (thistledown suit) = 0%
Armor check penalty: 2 (chain shirt) + 1 (thistledown suit) - 3 (mithral) = 0

[Holycram]

Arcane spell failure: 20% (chain shirt) - 10% (mithral) -5% (githcraft) -5% (thistledown suit) = 0%
Armor check penalty: 2 (chain shirt) + 1 (thistledown suit) - 3 (mithral) = 0

You. I like you. This is good. Githyanki and Githzerai actually happen to be a large factor in the campaign... Booyah.

[Barbarian Horde]

http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/
Combine two first levels spell into a second level spell now you qualify.

[Venger]

nar demonbinder doesn't work that way. its spell progression goes from 4 to 8, which is why you need to jump through some hoops if you're trying to get into something like mystic theurge that requires 2s.

[Holycram]

Thanks for all the help guys :)

Hopefully the last question? Nar Demonbinder gives fiendform as a 6th level spell. In unapproachable east, where nar d. is from, the description says it allows the user to become anything from summon monster I-V and that it functions like polymorph. However in CArc, SC etc it says summon monster I-IV and it functions like alter self.

As the latter is the more recent publication of the spell, I assume that's the correct version to go by, but looking at the IV list... nothing stands out. Am I missing something great? Anyone have any suggestions? I had originally planned to use it to become a bearded devil in combination with divine power for combat, so a combat oriented form would be best, I think...

[Venger]

Thanks for all the help guys :)

Hopefully the last question? Nar Demonbinder gives fiendform as a 6th level spell. In unapproachable east, where nar d. is from, the description says it allows the user to become anything from summon monster I-V and that it functions like polymorph. However in CArc, SC etc it says summon monster I-IV and it functions like alter self.

As the latter is the more recent publication of the spell, I assume that's the correct version to go by, but looking at the IV list... nothing stands out. Am I missing something great? Anyone have any suggestions? I had originally planned to use it to become a bearded devil in combination with divine power for combat, so a combat oriented form would be best, I think...

fiendform was updated yet again in the spell compendium, and is now keyed off alter self, but gives all ex/su/sp, so is pretty cool.

[Sith_Happens]

You. I like you. This is good. Githyanki and Githzerai actually happen to be a large factor in the campaign... Booyah.

In that case, keep in mind that, though it may or may not be relevant with this particular NPC, Githyanki will generally attack any non-Githyanki user of Githcraft equipment on sight.

[Urpriest]

For qualifying purposes, since Nar Demonbinder is a spontaneous caster, you can also try to use a feat that gives a 2nd level spell known, like the Necrotic Cyst stuff or a Bloodline feat from the Dragon Compendium.

[dysprosium]

I know most of the forum here speaks in the terms of RAW but take this argument into consideration.

So for Mystic Theurge you need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Nar Demonbinder only gives you 4th through 8th level spells. Four is greater than two therefore you qualify--by virtue of being able to cast spells that are higher than the requirement.

Mystic Theurge also has a requirement of Knowledge (arcana) 6 and Knowledge (religion) 6. What if your character has seven ranks in these skills? By RAW you don't qualify either.

By taking the RAW too far for things it can get quite ridiculous. No one subscribes to this theory:
DM: The feat Power Attack has a prerequisite of Strength 13.
Player: Awesome! I have a Strength of 40,000!
DM: Can't have Power Attack then--you have 39.987 more points in Strength than the requirement. Nice try though!

I just submit this thought process as another way to think of things.

[WhamBamSam]

I know most of the forum here speaks in the terms of RAW but take this argument into consideration.

So for Mystic Theurge you need to be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Nar Demonbinder only gives you 4th through 8th level spells. Four is greater than two therefore you qualify--by virtue of being able to cast spells that are higher than the requirement.

Mystic Theurge also has a requirement of Knowledge (arcana) 6 and Knowledge (religion) 6. What if your character has seven ranks in these skills? By RAW you don't qualify either.

By taking the RAW too far for things it can get quite ridiculous. No one subscribes to this theory:
DM: The feat Power Attack has a prerequisite of Strength 13.
Player: Awesome! I have a Strength of 40,000!
DM: Can't have Power Attack then--you have 39.987 more points in Strength than the requirement. Nice try though!

I just submit this thought process as another way to think of things.You could argue that this case is different, because the character has 6 skill ranks+more, or 13 Str+more, but 4th level spells aren't really 2nd level spells+more in and of themselves. Also, this argument can't really be taken the other way in terms of spellcasting. A Wizard 5/Cleric 5 is still able to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells, and couldn't be barred from going Mystic Theurge on those grounds.

But yeah, while I'm here I'll repeat my earlier suggestion and echo Urpriest on Bloodline feats. Along with their use in qualification shenanigans, they're good for Nar Demonbinder just for expanding your spell list/spells known.

[dysprosium]

You could argue that this case is different, because the character has 6 skill ranks+more, or 13 Str+more, but 4th level spells aren't really 2nd level spells+more in and of themselves. Also, this argument can't really be taken the other way in terms of spellcasting. A Wizard 5/Cleric 5 is still able to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells, and couldn't be barred from going Mystic Theurge on those grounds.

But yeah, while I'm here I'll repeat my earlier suggestion and echo Urpriest on Bloodline feats. Along with their use in qualification shenanigans, they're good for Nar Demonbinder just for expanding your spell list/spells known.

I understand what you (and everyone else is saying).

Strength 40,000 is better than Strength 13.
Seven ranks in a skill is better than six ranks.

And 4th level spells are better than 2nd level spells.

Semantics? Yes. But that's what RAW is all abot isn't it?

[WhamBamSam]

I understand what you (and everyone else is saying).

Strength 40,000 is better than Strength 13.
Seven ranks in a skill is better than six ranks.

And 4th level spells are better than 2nd level spells.

Semantics? Yes. But that's what RAW is all abot isn't it?Ranks are distinct objects so a set of seven of them contains a set of six of them.

It's less clear that there is such a thing as "ability points" or whatever, but at least the ability score is just a number. If we're getting pedantic, and we seem to be, the set theoretic construction of the natural numbers starts from the empty set for zero, then has the set of sets containing the empty set for 1, the set containing the empty set and the set containing the empty set for 2, and so on, so in a way, 13 is contained in 20 or 40,000 or whatever in a well-defined way.

Yes, 4 is higher than 2 in that same way, but 4th level spells aren't really strictly better than 2nd level spells in the same sense. The th makes a difference. The sense in which 4th level spells are better than 2nd level spells is more of a metagame one, I'd argue, than the sense in which 20 Str is better than 13 Str.

I do agree that some of this is just semantics and needs to just be houseruled in a sensible way. For example, the prereqs for Deformity (Tall) and Area Attack include medium size and huge size respectively. In the former case it's potentially reasonable to suggest that that it does mean EXACTLY MEDIUM SIZE, and that you can't stack it with size increases for more reach, whereas the latter explicitly mentions Gargantuan and Colossal creatures using it.

It's not unreasonable to just let Nar Demonbinders into casting PrCs without paying a Bloodline feat tax or whatever, but I don't think the stricter interpretation is too internally inconsistent with the other accepted passes that we give to RAW.