Casters v.s everything campaign journal

[Illven]

So, I made a game to test a basic assumption that a party of spellcasters could survive and prosper from level 1 to 20, against just about any CR the players felt comfortable handling. This game was called Casters v.s everything.


Recently my players suffered a TPK against an optimized boss squad. So obviously that assumption is false. Now my players aren't un-optimized to the point that they aren't really spellcasters. They all have high casting stats for instance. But they still died. It really wasn't even a close fight. Due to any combination of poor tactics, poor luck, or poor information on the players part, it was a curbstomp for the enemy.

The party is made up of 4-8 players at any given time. (I encourage up to 8, but won't go higher then that.) They fight a higher percentage of enemies however if there are more then 4 players. We use block initiative, which means if two or more players have turns with no enemy in-between those turns they can post in any order.

In addition sometimes individual players will die to whatever random creature I roll up. (Seriously I use dice and everything, I emphasize MM1, and my only rule is that they can't fight the same enemy more then once in a CR block.) So far if I recall correctly two players have died in non boss fights. They were revived cheaply really quickly, but they still died.

So yeah, even with Druids and Clerics low level adventuring is still a diceroll.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As one of the players in said campaign the MVP from the last fight on the monster's side had to be either the evolved shadow or the silver dragon. The fear effect was surprisingly potent.

[meemaas]

I dunno. From my side (saved against the fear) the silver dragons paralyzing breath was what killed us most. Taking three of our party members out screwed the action economy in their favor.

My personal build was attempting to support the party members shenanigans. Not to the extent of God wizard but still functional. Odds are. If I hadn't spent my time trying to defend the paralyzed members we might have made a better dent in the enemies numbers.

I will say choosing a spell because of a misconceived notion as to what it did didn't help our case.

[DarkOne-Rob]

To what extent are your PCs using summoning magic? How many animal companions are there?

D&D and PathFinder are designed for balanced parties, in spite of the shenanigans that can be performed by casters. If you don't have meat shields or damage dealers, lots of encounters become more difficult quickly. If you have battlefield control spells with enough success to prevent melee monsters from eating PCs, you might be able to pull of ranged "kill them before they reach us" builds, but that is rather tough in a dungeon environment too. In what sorts of terrain are you all fighting these enemies?

[Illven]

They have no focused summoner, but they do have an amber amulet of vermin large scropion, along with skeleton mooks, and one druid.

Featureless plains.

[emeraldstreak]

Inexplicable they are losing fights.

[Venger]

Inexplicable they are losing fights.

Not really. Very low levels in D&D are pretty ridiculous since every fight boils down to rocket tag. an orc swinging a falchion will straight up kill you much more than he's supposed to.

what level is your party right now, OP? if it's below 6 or so, then your results are far from unusual.

[ryu]

Not really. Very low levels in D&D are pretty ridiculous since every fight boils down to rocket tag. an orc swinging a falchion will straight up kill you much more than he's supposed to.

what level is your party right now, OP? if it's below 6 or so, then your results are far from unusual.

Though it is important that someone building specifically to live to late levels as a caster can easily punch that notion in the teeth using completely straightforward techniques as long as the DM isn't hostile. If the DM IS hostile, but technically following the rules you tend to have to get esoteric to ensure survival.

[Venger]

Though it is important that someone building specifically to live to late levels as a caster can easily punch that notion in the teeth using completely straightforward techniques as long as the DM isn't hostile. If the DM IS hostile, but technically following the rules you tend to have to get esoteric to ensure survival.

that's very true. that's kind of the point I was trying to make though.

very low lvl deeandee is a different game from what it turns into later on. if you have a normal 20 lvl build without much thought as to how you're going to survive the low levels (a by-the-book mystic theurge, for example) then you may struggle somewhat with survivability vs a character who's written up with the intention that they'll actually have to play out those low levels.

[ryu]

that's very true. that's kind of the point I was trying to make though.

very low lvl deeandee is a different game from what it turns into later on. if you have a normal 20 lvl build without much thought as to how you're going to survive the low levels (a by-the-book mystic theurge, for example) then you may struggle somewhat with survivability vs a character who's written up with the intention that they'll actually have to play out those low levels.

For example about the most ridiculous a wizard should ever conceivably have to sacrifice to be survivable at low levels would be focussed specialist conjurer, precocious apprentice into early entry fiery burst, abrupt jaunting with faerie mysteries initiate, and a few feats to lower damage taken when hit. If that doesn't survive the low levels handily something is either very wrong at the table or the game is very high OP. Like ridiculously so by pretty much any standard.

[Venger]

For example about the most ridiculous a wizard should ever conceivably have to sacrifice to be survivable at low levels would be focussed specialist conjurer, precocious apprentice into early entry fiery burst, abrupt jaunting with faerie mysteries initiate, and a few feats to lower damage taken when hit. If that doesn't survive the low levels handily something is either very wrong at the table or the game is very high OP. Like ridiculously so by pretty much any standard.

not really.

again, I feel like you have some different ideas of what it takes for a DM to accidentally wipe a lvl 1 party.

so sure, let's say a wizard party had setups something like that.

a CR appropriate encounter (much less a challenging or very difficult one) of a couple of orcs is more than capable of killing at least one or two party members with a lucky swing. dealing 2d4+4 with double on 18-20 is a very serious threat. this is exacerbated if you're using an abnormally large party of up to 8 as mentioned since it means more monsters on the field. at best, you maybe have 8 abrupt jaunts a day. in a battle involving 8 PCs, may well get swung at more than twice in each encounter on average. even if you allocate a few of your precious daily slots to shield or mage armor, one lucky hit will still kill you.

this is to say nothing of how non-caster characters can be obviated literally from lvl 1 by a bunch of monsters no further away than the srd. any rogue or skulking type who didn't take darkstalker, for example, is going to get picked up by cr 1/3 dogs any time he tries to steal something, which doesn't even require a DM being particularly malicious, especially if you're assigning combat encounters completely at random like OP is in this case.

this gets much worse as you progress, probably reaching its apex at lvl 3 when the game starts really trying to kill you with stuff like allips and shadows which, even if you have a few things that can cut the mustard as an all-caster party, will ruin your day very fast if you're low on slots or otherwise tapped out somehow.

[Hurnn]

So, I made a game to test a basic assumption that a party of spellcasters could survive and prosper from level 1 to 20, against just about any CR the players felt comfortable handling. This game was called Casters v.s everything.


Recently my players suffered a TPK against an optimized boss squad. So obviously that assumption is false. Now my players aren't un-optimized to the point that they aren't really spellcasters. They all have high casting stats for instance. But they still died. It really wasn't even a close fight. Due to any combination of poor tactics, poor luck, or poor information on the players part, it was a curbstomp for the enemy.

The party is made up of 4-8 players at any given time. (I encourage up to 8, but won't go higher then that.) They fight a higher percentage of enemies however if there are more then 4 players. We use block initiative, which means if two or more players have turns with no enemy in-between those turns they can post in any order.

In addition sometimes individual players will die to whatever random creature I roll up. (Seriously I use dice and everything, I emphasize MM1, and my only rule is that they can't fight the same enemy more then once in a CR block.) So far if I recall correctly two players have died in non boss fights. They were revived cheaply really quickly, but they still died.

So yeah, even with Druids and Clerics low level adventuring is still a diceroll.


How did a TPK vs an optimized boss squad prove the assumption false? would a standard party have fared any better? Are you optimizing the encounters to go against an all caster party? If so you are skewing your own results. Monsters played out of the book are going to get curb stomped into oblivion by an even moderately optimized all caster party, more so than by a standard party, and the disparity will grow by level.

[Duskranger]

As another one of the players I must say that the boss encounters are designed to be an unfair very challenging fight.

We fought one optimized wyrmling silver dragon and an evolved shado (which took out my companion, as I was the druid in the tale).

But still one of the reasons we lost was not because it was challenging and sort of unfair (but fun as a result, no doubts about it) was simply the fact we did not talk with each other or strategized. Besides that if I would have used my amber amulet of vermin a lot sooner, we would have had another meat shield. We as casters played poorly, and that was what killed us, more than the opponents.

[Yahzi]

Why does an all-caster party not have meatshields? Isn't that what Charm Person is for?

[Duskranger]

Why does an all-caster party not have meatshields? Isn't that what Charm Person is for?

Charming a guy makes it just not attack you, you do not control it and it will never do something it would not do normally. My druid ones used charm animal, which made it attack not me, but it did attack my allies.

[Venger]

plus with randomly generated monsters from predominantly MM1, especially on what sounds like a dungeon crawl, meaty humanoid slaves might not have been especially plentiful.

[Duskranger]

plus with randomly generated monsters from predominantly MM1, especially on what sounds like a dungeon crawl, meaty humanoid slaves might not have been especially plentiful.

It's more an arena than a crawl, but yes, that's why we went with skeletons and animate dead and will do that again, but now with a dread necromancer with corpsecrafter feats in the ranks.

[Venger]

It's more an arena than a crawl, but yes, that's why we went with skeletons and animate dead and will do that again, but now with a dread necromancer with corpsecrafter feats in the ranks.

good luck. dread necro is a lot of fun, but it's a very challenging class to play. make sure everyone takes TTS.

[TypoNinja]

I"m curious what level the dragon fight that got them was at, cause I've never been scared of dragon fights after a certain level.

As soon as shivering touch is on the table dragons tend to get paralyzed pretty quick. Eyeball beholderkin familiar gets to use his eye rays to deliver touch spells for you and suddenly you have larger reach than the dragon. Not pretty.

[Duskranger]

I"m curious what level the dragon fight that got them was at, cause I've never been scared of dragon fights after a certain level.

As soon as shivering touch is on the table dragons tend to get paralyzed pretty quick. Eyeball beholderkin familiar gets to use his eye rays to deliver touch spells for you and suddenly you have larger reach than the dragon. Not pretty.

Silver dragons are immune to.shivering touch, since it's a cold spell.

And it was a CR3 boss, so I guess total El 6 or something like that

[TypoNinja]

Silver dragons are immune to.shivering touch, since it's a cold spell.

And it was a CR3 boss, so I guess total El 6 or something like that

Err yea, why did I think Silver was a fire type? This is what I get for trying to think at 6 am. To bed with me!

[Killer Angel]

To what extent are your PCs using summoning magic? How many animal companions are there?

D&D and PathFinder are designed for balanced parties, in spite of the shenanigans that can be performed by casters. If you don't have meat shields or damage dealers, lots of encounters become more difficult quickly.

Indeed.
I'm currently running a campaign with basically all casters (it wasn't planned), but one of them is a summoner and one is a druid. They have plenty of meatshields.

[ericgrau]

Lack of meat may be a problem, but summons aren't the answer unless PF super buffed cleric/druid/wizard summoning somehow. Or the summoner class is nice yeah. They have nice utility like flight sometimes, but otherwise their stats are pathetic. A wizard swinging a small weapon is a couple steps above one, and that says something. It's hard for them to even hit, even when boosted. Your best hope is that the enemy will waste a single swing on the summon that can't hurt him. In general I find solutions like this annoying, and more of a failed attempt to mock other classes than anything. "You need X? Okay, here's a pathetic version of X. See it's covered. Isn't having access to everything wonderful?"

I think PF does have a feat that reduces the casting time of summons that helps a great deal. That plus augment summoning on a druid could be ok. Otherwise missing out on a round is another big blow in rocket tag.

False life OTOH is immensely useful. ~8-10 hp is crazy good at low level. And you don't have to blow a turn and wait until round 2 for it to pop in. At low levels I'm finding shocking grasp + familiar w/ false life + me w/ false life to be great. Cast false life on self and familiar ahead of time. Share shocking grasp with familiar. If he misses he can swing again next turn right before you cast your own shocking grasp or whatever. Or you can share the spell with him ahead of time and have him hold the charge, letting you do something else round 1 after it discharges. Plus the familiar may even tank a hit. Reliable damage is often enough to 1 shot kill at low level and far better than an effect that may or may not disable depending on whether or not the foe saves or is immune. Not much at low level has any energy resistance, and it's piddly even if it does.

Or you could do false life + color spray + magic missile so you have a good close up area spell, enough hp to survive close up, and a backup spell in case of low level immunities or other defenses. Etc. But in my current campaign I'm doing my best to avoid normal spells since it's an all sorc party and I want to be different. At first I wouldn't even use false life b/c while it's not super popular it is too common for me. After a rapid death I buckled and went with my old stand by and the difference was night and day. Being able to take 2 big hits instead of 1 big hit is everything in rocket tag fights because your counter swing kills the foe.

[Inevitability]

I still wonder about the real optimization level here. 'They have high casting stats' is not optimization, it's common sense. Ever seen a wizard who thought being likeable was more important than being smart in any but the least optimized parties?

[ericgrau]

Eh that's a dangerous road, b/c you can find holes in anything. Everyone makes mistakes and you can't expect a flawless performance. The OP seems experienced enough.

[Boci]

For example about the most ridiculous a wizard should ever conceivably have to sacrifice to be survivable at low levels would be focussed specialist conjurer, precocious apprentice into early entry fiery burst, abrupt jaunting with faerie mysteries initiate, and a few feats to lower damage taken when hit. If that doesn't survive the low levels handily something is either very wrong at the table or the game is very high OP. Like ridiculously so by pretty much any standard.

I can't help but smile when I read "This character is so OP that if anything at the table can kill them, then the game is ridiculously OP". Well yes, that stands to reason, what kind of game do you expect to have with that character? I get the notion that if wizards cannot survive than what hope to other classes have, but I still find it slightly amusing.

[lord_khaine]

How did a TPK vs an optimized boss squad prove the assumption false? would a standard party have fared any better? Are you optimizing the encounters to go against an all caster party? If so you are skewing your own results. Monsters played out of the book are going to get curb stomped into oblivion by an even moderately optimized all caster party, more so than by a standard party, and the disparity will grow by level.

I really agree on this point, you cant draw any conclusions from this at all without running a standard party though the same set of trials.

[ryu]

I can't help but smile when I read "This character is so OP that if anything at the table can kill them, then the game is ridiculously OP". Well yes, that stands to reason, what kind of game do you expect to have with that character? I get the notion that if wizards cannot survive than what hope to other classes have, but I still find it slightly amusing.

Assuming the rest of the party at least know what is on their character sheet and how it functions I can't for the life of me think of why orcs of all things would be dangerous. They have crummy will saves, don't use traps, and generally aren't all that tactical. Also melee. There are just so many exploitable holes to abuse even if wands aren't happening to end all low level spell shortages. Know what's actually somewhat threatening at level one? Tucker's kobalds or equivalent concept. Why? Because at these levels it's actually not a cakewalk to force an enemy that outnumbers you, has defensive fortifications, is properly cowardly, and somewhat intelligent to play your game. Do you have any idea the kinds of horrifying things I've dealt with? The enemies constantly attacking through slits in the wall too small to get line of sight through or even reliable line of effect? In mass? The crawlspace passages that gave them places we couldn't attack deep into let alone pursue through? The sheer number of fake traps, dead ends, and ambushes with clear enemy escape routes planned competently? That's scarier than any two-bit thug wielding a sword could ever be.

[Boci]

Assuming the rest of the party at least know what is on their character sheet and how it functions I can't for the life of me think of why orcs of all things would be dangerous. They have crummy will saves, don't use traps, and generally aren't all that tactical. Also melee. There are just so many exploitable holes to abuse even if wands aren't happening to end all low level spell shortages. Know what's actually somewhat threatening at level one? Tucker's kobalds or equivalent concept. Why? Because at these levels it's actually not a cakewalk to force an enemy that outnumbers you, has defensive fortifications, is properly cowardly, and somewhat intelligent to play your game. Do you have any idea the kinds of horrifying things I've dealt with? The enemies constantly attacking through slits in the wall too small to get line of sight through or even reliable line of effect? In mass? The crawlspace passages that gave them places we couldn't attack deep into let alone pursue through? The sheer number of fake traps, dead ends, and ambushes with clear enemy escape routes planned competently? That's scarier than any two-bit thug wielding a sword could ever be.

I am unaware of what any of that has to do with what you quoted.

[emeraldstreak]

not really.

again, I feel like you have some different ideas of what it takes for a DM to accidentally wipe a lvl 1 party.

so sure, let's say a wizard party had setups something like that.

a CR appropriate encounter (much less a challenging or very difficult one) of a couple of orcs is more than capable of killing at least one or two party members with a lucky swing. dealing 2d4+4 with double on 18-20 is a very serious threat. this is exacerbated if you're using an abnormally large party of up to 8 as mentioned since it means more monsters on the field. at best, you maybe have 8 abrupt jaunts a day. in a battle involving 8 PCs, may well get swung at more than twice in each encounter on average. even if you allocate a few of your precious daily slots to shield or mage armor, one lucky hit will still kill you.

The key word here being OPTIMIZED. Orcs aren't a threat even to a party of optimized Commoners, let alone casters.

[emeraldstreak]

We fought one optimized wyrmling silver dragon and an evolved shado (which took out my companion, as I was the druid in the tale).


How was the wyrmling optimized?

[ericgrau]

The key word here being OPTIMIZED. Orcs aren't a threat even to a party of optimized Commoners, let alone casters.

Orcs are a problem at level 1 because they can 1 hit KO, with about a 15% chance on each and every hit to also cause new character time on anything with a d6 HD or less. So perhaps once in a fight with 2-3 orcs. A player goes from max to below -10. On pure luck. In general 4 CR 1/4 creatures are better than 2 CR 1/2 creatures at level 1. Or 8 CR 1/4 creatures if you want a really hard fight. At least then the PC may get a chance to run when he is wounded.

[emeraldstreak]

Lack of meat may be a problem, but summons aren't the answer unless PF super buffed cleric/druid/wizard summoning somehow. Or the summoner class is nice yeah. They have nice utility like flight sometimes, but otherwise their stats are pathetic. A wizard swinging a small weapon is a couple steps above one, and that says something. It's hard for them to even hit, even when boosted. Your best hope is that the enemy will waste a single swing on the summon that can't hurt him. In general I find solutions like this annoying, and more of a failed attempt to mock other classes than anything. "You need X? Okay, here's a pathetic version of X. See it's covered. Isn't having access to everything wonderful?"

I think PF does have a feat that reduces the casting time of summons that helps a great deal. That plus augment summoning on a druid could be ok. Otherwise missing out on a round is another big blow in rocket tag.

False life OTOH is immensely useful. ~8-10 hp is crazy good at low level. And you don't have to blow a turn and wait until round 2 for it to pop in. At low levels I'm finding shocking grasp + familiar w/ false life + me w/ false life to be great. Cast false life on self and familiar ahead of time. Share shocking grasp with familiar. If he misses he can swing again next turn right before you cast your own shocking grasp or whatever. Or you can share the spell with him ahead of time and have him hold the charge, letting you do something else round 1 after it discharges. Plus the familiar may even tank a hit. Reliable damage is often enough to 1 shot kill at low level and far better than an effect that may or may not disable depending on whether or not the foe saves or is immune. Not much at low level has any energy resistance, and it's piddly even if it does.

Or you could do false life + color spray + magic missile so you have a good close up area spell, enough hp to survive close up, and a backup spell in case of low level immunities or other defenses. Etc. But in my current campaign I'm doing my best to avoid normal spells since it's an all sorc party and I want to be different. At first I wouldn't even use false life b/c while it's not super popular it is too common for me. After a rapid death I buckled and went with my old stand by and the difference was night and day. Being able to take 2 big hits instead of 1 big hit is everything in rocket tag fights because your counter swing kills the foe.


Good list for what NOT to do if you want to be an optimized caster.



Orcs are a problem at level 1 because they can 1 hit KO, with about a 15% chance on each and every hit to also cause new character time on anything with a d6 HD or less.

No, they don't. Again, I'm not sure if you've ever seen optimized characters.

[Boci]

Good list for what NOT to do if you want to be an optimized caster.




No, they don't. Again, I'm not sure if you've ever seen optimized characters.

No, you are the one who is confused. You are thinking powergaming/TO, not optimization. I can't tell which until I see what you would do with the casters and commoners to make them orc proof.

[Illven]

I think I was unclear. My point wasn't that a standard party would win where casters failed, it's that decent casters aren't always a win button even when the DM isn't being malicious.

The one thing I can share about the wyrmling since my players already know, was a DC 21 paralyzing breath.

Admittedly the party doesn't use wands, except for the druid. But as far as I can tell they've never felt pinched for spells.

We had two abrupt jaunters, a druid which is hard to screw up, a Archvist, a illusionist (Admittedly the illusionist doesn't do things alot), a loredrake sorcerer/psion, a beguiler/wizard, and a warmage.

[Boci]

I think I was unclear. My point wasn't that a standard party would win where casters failed, it's that decent casters aren't always a win button even when the DM isn't being malicious.

Few people says that and mean it. The internet is fond hyperbole, so the phrase "always a win button" generally in fact means "casters stand the best chance due to a high optimization ceiling and a lot of variety with large spell lists", but that's boring to say.


We had two abrupt jaunters, a druid which is hard to screw up, a Archvist, a illusionist (Admittedly the illusionist doesn't do things alot), a loredrake sorcerer/psion, a beguiler/wizard, and a warmage.

I count 6 full casters, one of whom "doesn't do thing alot" and the other is tier 4. That leaves only four tier 1 casters, who are the ones people refer to when they talk about caster win buttons. Multiclassing characters (even when two full casting classes are involved) are not full casters for the purpose of factoring their capabilities, especially not at low levels.

[emeraldstreak]

No, you are the one who is confused. You are thinking powergaming/TO, not optimization. I can't tell which until I see what you would do with the casters and commoners to make them orc proof.

Disregarding the irony of your statement that TOptimization is not optimization; I wasn't talking Pun-Pun (duh). However, I am talking about bonafide applied optimization that results in characters worthy of being called powerful.

It's seems to me OP's party was decent, not powerful, and there's nothing wrong in playing decent characters. But you can't use the anecdotal story of one decent party to make valid judgements for the system. Such statements have the same invalidity as anecdotal stories of fighters and monks eclipsing wizards and druids in many underoptimized campaigns.

[Boci]

Disregarding the irony of your statement that TOptimization is not optimization;

The English language (not to be taken literally, especially with community specific slang)


I wasn't talking Pun-Pun (duh).

There is more to TO than Pun-Pun, and I did say it could be powergaming too. Speaking of which:


However, I am talking about bonafide applied optimization that results in characters worthy of being called powerful.

Such as?

[meemaas]

We weren't building to be the most powerful thing since sliced bread at level one. Or three in this case. The players are all playing casters and/or caster builds that they enjoy. Not that that's a bad thing. But if we had all been playing the absolute best characters available it would have been a different story.

[Boci]

We weren't building to be the most powerful thing since sliced bread at level one. Or three in this case. The players are all playing casters and/or caster builds that they enjoy. Not that that's a bad thing. But if we had all been playing the absolute best characters available it would have been a different story.

The question is how much did you fall short of the "most powerful thing", or at least it is if we are to have any meaningful analysis of this TPK. Warmage is setting the bar pretty low, unless they are aiming for Rainbow Warsnake, and two characters were multiclassing, which from a power standpoint is a net loss.

So what about the 4 tier 1 classes (discounting the illusionist). Abrupt jaunt is a good choice, very powerful and useful at any level, though obviously the most so at the earlier stages of the game. What other powerful options fit with their character concept?

[meemaas]

The warmage was going for a magic missile based build, while the multiclass psion was a reliable damage dealer. (I think he was using the kobold right of passage material to increase his sorcerer level.)

Beyond that I only know the specifics for my build. Which I brought up early was a bit of failure on my part for bad choice in spells.

As we're preparing for our round 2 with this gauntlet a few of us have chosen to switch characters. For example, I switched to a rainbow war snake build, using early entry to start it off and reserve feats to keep damage output available.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The warmage was going for a magic missile based build, while the multiclass psion was a reliable damage dealer. (I think he was using the kobold right of passage material to increase his sorcerer level.)

The right of passage comes online at ~6th level, but he was using the loredrake sovereign archetype to to boost his effective sorcerer level.

I'm one of the two people with abrupt jaunt, for the record. My current plan is to enter Ultimate Magus as a Beguiler/Conjurer and throw down as much metamagic as possible. Going back to the two non-TPK deaths, I believe both of those came about due to poor planning/starting positions. As we set where we wish to start, one of us started on the far right before everyone else decided it would be best to be on the far left. Mistakes were made.::smallredface:

[emeraldstreak]

Such as?

That you need to ask this question means you lack understanding of the fundamentals of power. Begin your path to enlightenment here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).

[Boci]

That you need to ask this question means you lack understanding of the fundamentals of power. Begin your path to enlightenment here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).

No, I understand how it works. Incidentally Zykon is a horribly optimized caster, so linking him on the nature of power is a bit ironic (this time for real). Also, arguable spell book = coat (Zykon being a spontaneous caster), so a wizard doesn't have power either until very late levels. I'm beginning to suspect that you lack an understanding on the fundamentals of power. Certainly Zykon's interpretation of it.

The fact that you are unwilling to get into specifics speaks volumes. You cannot produce a build that lives up to the hype you have presented without praying into Pun-Pun-eque territory. Ryu has presented the pinnacle of a low level wizards still bound by PO in this thread, and that is not immune to orcs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

At the level of play in question even borderline TO level optimization can't save you from the occasional dice screw and, even if it could, human error is always a factor even in the levels just before epic play.

That said, the party in question probably could've optimized themselves better than they did but it wouldn't have mattered much if tactical errors are what did them in.

[emeraldstreak]

No, I understand how it works. Incidentally Zykon is a horribly optimized caster, so linking him on the nature of power is a bit ironic (this time for real). Also, arguable spell book = coat (Zykon being a spontaneous caster), so a wizard doesn't have power either until very late levels. I'm beginning to suspect that you lack an understanding on the fundamentals of power. Certainly Zykon's interpretation of it.

The fact that you are unwilling to get into specifics speaks volumes. You cannot produce a build that lives up to the hype you have presented without praying into Pun-Pun-eque territory. Ryu has presented the pinnacle of a low level wizards still bound by PO in this thread, and that is not immune to orcs.


No, you really don't understand. You are focusing on the irrelevant minutae once again, failing to understand where power arises from.

I don't present builds for whiteroom babbling. The only worthy exercises for me are arenas and gauntlets, which I invariably win should I choose to participate. It probably has something to do with understanding the fundamentals of the game.

[Boci]

No, you really don't understand. You are focusing on the irrelevant minutae once again, failing to understand where power arises from.

You linked the speech of an epic level sorcerer who was foiled by a bullrush check. You are claiming optimized caster (and commoners) are immune to orcs. There are no irrelevant minutes.


I don't present builds for whiteroom babbling. The only worthy exercises for me are arenas and gauntlets, which I invariably win should I choose to participate. It probably has something to do with understanding the fundamentals of the game.

Empty, unsubstantiated claims. I'm not asking for full builds, but tips, guidelines. But if that doesn't fit into your bust schedule understanding the fundamentals of a game (i.e. something played differently by each group, where a search for fun is the only truly common theme), can you link to a gauntlet or arena you have you have won?

No, I didn't think. I am pretty confident I will not be eating these words.

[emeraldstreak]

At the level of play in question even borderline TO level optimization can't save you from the occasional dice screw and, even if it could, human error is always a factor even in the levels just before epic play.

That said, the party in question probably could've optimized themselves better than they did but it wouldn't have mattered much if tactical errors are what did them in.

You can weed out dice screw by statistics to reveal the correct underlying mechanics conclusions. Human error you cannot, but DMs also can fail playing the monsters in the most threatening way. The way to account for this is to have the encounter ran by different parties under different DMs.

The party in question is lacking vital defense and control abilities even for level 1, let alone level 3. Once again, I don't see this as a fault at all, the players were out to have some fun. I just don't see how this story proves anything about the system, anymore than any number of otherwise true stories of "in my group the monk was better than the wizard".

[Boci]

You can weed out dice screw by statistics to reveal the correct underlying mechanics conclusions. Human error you cannot, but DMs also can fail playing the monsters in the most threatening way. The way to account for this is to have the encounter ran by different parties under different DMs.

The party in question is lacking vital defense and control abilities even for level 1, let alone level 3. Once again, I don't see this as a fault at all, the players were out to have some fun. I just don't see how this story proves anything about the system, anymore than any number of otherwise true stories of "in my group the monk was better than the wizard".

It proves a lot than more than the evidence you have presented does.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, these are things that happen. A combination of bad saves and high poison rolls has happened to my party before. Having a rattlesnake (tiny viper) grab your boot when you are walking the trail and do 2d6 con damage at level 1 can happen for instance, and that takes a while to heal.

[emeraldstreak]

You linked the speech of an epic level sorcerer who was foiled by a bullrush check. You are claiming optimized caster (and commoners) are immune to orcs. There are no irrelevant minutes.

I'm claiming that an optimized party won't have any problems with MM1 orcs (you can give them falchions if you wish) because by addressing the most basic fundamentals of the game any threat from the orcs will be mitigated to next to zero.



Empty, unsubstantiated claims. I'm not asking for full builds, but tips, guidelines. But if that doesn't fit into your bust schedule understanding the fundamentals of a game (i.e. something played differently by each group, where a search for fun is the only truly common theme), can you link to a gauntlet or arena you have you have won?

No, I didn't think. I am pretty confident I will not be eating these words.

Why, don't you want to try besting me in a contest for this very argument? Find out how much worse you will do compared to me? Learn the hard way not to question my words ever again?

I, at least, think that would be more fun.

[emeraldstreak]

Yeah, these are things that happen. A combination of bad saves and high poison rolls has happened to my party before. Having a rattlesnake (tiny viper) grab your boot when you are walking the trail and do 2d6 con damage at level 1 can happen for instance, and that takes a while to heal.

Poison is one of the easiest things to defend against.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can weed out dice screw by statistics to reveal the correct underlying mechanics conclusions. Human error you cannot, but DMs also can fail playing the monsters in the most threatening way. The way to account for this is to have the encounter ran by different parties under different DMs.

That's great for empirical study and finding trends in long-term play but at the level of any individual battle such things simply don't matter. If the dice go against you, and you can't eliminate the dice the enemies roll completely, then that's just too bad, time to roll up a new character. The dice really didn't care that your wizard took all the right feats, knew all the right spells, and that you did your very best to apply them. That's just the nature of low-level play.


The party in question is lacking vital defense and control abilities even for level 1, let alone level 3. Once again, I don't see this as a fault at all, the players were out to have some fun. I just don't see how this story proves anything about the system, anymore than any number of otherwise true stories of "in my group the monk was better than the wizard".

This is an entirely valid point. One piece of empirical data doesn't matter a whit in determining large scale trends. It would be much more telling if it was a dozen or so TPK's across at least 3 or 4 dm's at level 12+ but even then it would be a terribly small sample.

[Esprit15]

Rather than talk about yourself as though you're a god blessing us puny mortals with your presence, would you kindly present some actual examples of commoners making short work of orcs? Or making poison worthless at level 1?

[emeraldstreak]

That's great for empirical study and finding trends in long-term play but at the level of any individual battle such things simply don't matter. If the dice go against you, and you can't eliminate the dice the enemies roll completely, then that's just too bad, time to roll up a new character. The dice really didn't care that your wizard took all the right feats, knew all the right spells, and that you did your very best to apply them. That's just the nature of low-level play.


There's a great deal of things to do to eliminate almost all chance even at the low levels. That's what controlling an encounter is about. Had the OP's party been perfectly optimized, and still lost to a shadow and a wyrmling (beyond laughable) due to them rolling only 1s and the monsters only 20s all fight; I would have commented on their bad luck, not on their underoptimization.

[Boci]

Why, don't you want to try besting me in a contest for this very argument? Find out how much worse you will do compared to me? Learn the hard way not to question my words ever again?

You do see what you type right? But sure, I'm up for it. Not PvP, because that's not the claim you made. You said that an optimized party won't have any trouble against MM1 orcs, so let's do that. Party of 4 PCs, made by you, vs. 2 orcs. Run several times, to see if they can defeat them repeatedly without any problems.

[emeraldstreak]

Rather than talk about yourself as though you're a god blessing us puny mortals with your presence, would you kindly present some actual examples of commoners making short work of orcs? Or making poison worthless at level 1?

Please, no need to worship me.

In my experience, doing it in an actual challenge is far more educational for the participating naysayers than random whiterooming.

[Tvtyrant]

Poison is one of the easiest things to defend against.

Okay. I'm really not involved in your argument, but how at level 1 do you do this without spending undue resources? IE without making yourself weak against something else.

[emeraldstreak]

You do see what you type right? But sure, I'm up for it. Not PvP, because that's not the claim you made. You said that an optimized party won't have any trouble against MM1 orcs, so let's do that. Party of 4 PCs, made by you, vs. 2 orcs. Run several times, to see if they can defeat them repeatedly without any problems.

Sounds good, but here's what's even better:

- you and other people also participate. Exercising your mind on the matter and later seeing how I've dealt with the same situation will give you a lot more insight.

- we lack sources, terrain, etc; while obviously we could make a matrix of them and see how they influence outcomes; I'm interested in the OP's rules on this for his campaign that eventually saw the casters defeated.

[emeraldstreak]

Okay. I'm really not involved in your argument, but how at level 1 do you do this without spending undue resources? IE without making yourself weak against something else.

You absolutely should not spend undue resources. As for the rest, it really depends on your sources. If you play with 3.0, 3.5, Dragon Magazine, Pathfinder, 3rd Party Pathfinder, and whatever else there is to the entirety of 3.P, well, then you really have a lot of resources even at level 1 (excluding Pun-Pun, infinite loops and other pure TO). Once you narrow the list the loss of resources makes your budget ever more stringent and you have to weigh priorities very carefully.

[Esprit15]

Okay. I'm really not involved in your argument, but how at level 1 do you do this without spending undue resources? IE without making yourself weak against something else.
No clue. Antivenom offers a bonus to the save, but you have to know that the poison is coming for that to matter. Plus it is slightly pricey for some of the less wealthy classes at level 1. Neutralize Poison is a second level spell at best and for most classes a third of fourth level spell, and it still does nothing if you don't see it coming.

[Boci]

Sounds good, but here's what's even better:

- you and other people also participate. Exercising your mind on the matter and later seeing how I've dealt with the same situation will give you a lot more insight.

- we lack sources, terrain, etc; while obviously we could make a matrix of them and see how they influence outcomes; I'm interested in the OP's rules on this for his campaign that eventually saw the casters defeated.

Other people in the same encounter (so two people, each controlling one orc), or simultaneously as in two people running the same orc encounter against your PCs in seperate threads? And sure, we can use the OPs terrain if he is okay with it.

Also, I'm sure you know this, but I'm going to say it anyway: you are setting yourself up big. I'm expecting my perceptions of this game, and quite possibly the world, to be forever changed after this.

Oh, and can we have a freebie on poison immunity at level 1? I know necropolant (which isn't RAW at level 1, but kinda reasonable for the GM to allow) and willing deformity (parasites), so 2 feats.


You absolutely should not spend undue resources. As for the rest, it really depends on your sources. If you play with 3.0, 3.5, Dragon Magazine, Pathfinder, 3rd Party Pathfinder, and whatever else there is to the entirety of 3.P, well, then you really have a lot of resources even at level 1 (excluding Pun-Pun, infinite loops and other pure TO). Once you narrow the list the loss of resources makes your budget ever more stringent and you have to weigh priorities very carefully.

I've named 2 for 3.5, which is 2 more than you have. Come on, you cannot let a rookie outdo you. You've got to say at least 3.

[emeraldstreak]

Other people in the same encounter (so two people, each controlling one orc), or simultaneously as in two people running the same orc encounter against your PCs in seperate threads? And sure, we can use the OPs terrain if he is okay with it.


Uhh, no. Other people participating with their own 4 PC parties against the Orcs. You in particular. That's the way to learn.

As for running the Orcs, couldn't care less who.

[Boci]

Uhh, no. Other people participating with their own 4 PC parties against the Orcs. You in particular. That's the way to learn.

As for running the Orcs, couldn't care less who.

Sounds good. I'd probably field something like:

Human / Warblade with a glaive, combat reflexes and power attack.
Whisper gnome / Factotum, getting proficient with quick razor for free thanks to complete warrior and dark stalker.
Grey elf / conjurer (abrupt jaunt) using wall of smoke, colourspray and grease. Maybe dropping one of those for enlarge person. Or maybe elven generalist domain wizard with a humming bird familiar and war wizard for free improve initiative. Yeah, probably that, although abrupt jaunt is hard to pass up on.
Human / Druid. A druid. Riding dog animal companion, entangle and cure light wound. Not sure on feats.

Got anything to add to my list of poison immunity at level one?

[Tvtyrant]

No clue. Antivenom offers a bonus to the save, but you have to know that the poison is coming for that to matter. Plus it is slightly pricey for some of the less wealthy classes at level 1. Neutralize Poison is a second level spell at best and for most classes a third of fourth level spell, and it still does nothing if you don't see it coming.

Yeah, that was my feeling too. I don't see any good ways to deal with poison at level 1, especially if you don't see it coming.

OTOH I love being offered platitudes :P

[Boci]

Yeah, that was my feeling too. I don't see any good ways to deal with poison at level 1, especially if you don't see it coming.

OTOH I love being offered platitudes :P

I got: necropolant template from Libris Mortis (which isn't RAW at level 1, but kinda reasonable for the GM to allow) and willing deformity (parasites), from Elder Evils. Its require willing deformity, so 2 feats, but you can get them for free (and more, its quite a generous amount of vile feats) I think by devoting yourself to an Elder Evil.

Edit: Never mind, swearing service to an Edler Evil gives you 1 bonus vile feat +1 per 5 hitdie, and requires you to know of their existence, which is a DC: 26-35 knowledge check, so probably not available at level 1. Still, you can take the feats, but its costs two slots.

[Esprit15]

Fair enough. I was trying to limit myself to generally available things, avoiding racials and feats to do so, since those affect builds a lot more than spells and equipment, though I should have remembered necropolitan with how often I see it mentioned.

For the feats, just be a human and/or take flaws. After all, I'm sure that murkey eyed flaw will never come back to bite you in the butt. :smallwink:

[Boci]

Fair enough. I was trying to limit myself to generally available things, avoiding racials and feats to do so, since those affect builds a lot more than spells and equipment, though I should have remembered necropolitan with how often I see it mentioned.

For the feats, just be a human and/or take flaws. After all, I'm sure that murkey eyed flaw will never come back to bite you in the butt. :smallwink:

Warforge are also immune to poison. Not the best race for a blank slate, but RAW legal unlike necropolant and doesn't require a specific alignment.

[Tvtyrant]

Fair enough. I was trying to limit myself to generally available things, avoiding racials and feats to do so, since those affect builds a lot more than spells and equipment, though I should have remembered necropolitan with how often I see it mentioned.

For the feats, just be a human and/or take flaws. After all, I'm sure that murkey eyed flaw will never come back to bite you in the butt. :smallwink:

Nope. Why would anyone ever need to hit something with concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm)at low levels?

[Boci]

Vulnerable is generally the first flaw you take. -1 to AC is negligible. (But then again you should probably be taking aggressive for the +2 to initiative, and that also gives -1 AC. -2 could be pushing it, at low levels at least). At low levels Inattentive hurts a bit, but pretty soon if you aren't a skill monkey you weren't expected to beat the monster's stealth rolls anyway. Shaky or non-combatant is probably a better choice though.

[DarkOne-Rob]

{Scrubbed}

I have enjoyed reading the conversation, but when the OP confirmed there was no terrain and the party was not using summoning well to augment their actions and put up some meat shields I knew at least part of the reason why things went poorly in this completely anecdotal example. When looking at details of the PCs (two multi-class, one blaster, and a largely inactive illusionist) it become more obvious that this is not a real test of any meaning and instead just some friends trying a different way of playing: all casters.

It proves/disproves nothing and neither will any simulations done. The method of actually testing this sort of thing will take both strict rules interpretations and statistical analysis of every decision made - there are too many variables to have a definitive answer. Have fun if you enjoy challenging each other in this way, but recognize that regardless of who wins/loses, nothing has been conclusively proven by such efforts unless done under much stricter controls and repeated several thousand times.

[Esprit15]

Those are probably better flaw choices, though I always have trouble justifying that the guy who is running around with a +30 in their perception skills is inattentive, or has a massive AC is still able to be called vulnerable, etc.

Dark, I don't think he was really trying to prove anything. The players even admitted that it was very much their fault for losing.

[Boci]

Those are probably better flaw choices, though I always have trouble justifying that the guy who is running around with a +30 in their perception skills is inattentive, or has a massive AC is still able to be called vulnerable, etc.

The whole point is you take inattentive because you are in a party and others can make the spot check (usually the skill monkey and maybe the divine caster), allowing the fighter and arcane caster to grab that flaw. Even if they did have a massive skill modifier you can justify it that he naturally doesn't pay attention and so trained himself to overcome this.

Vulnerable is pretty easy to justify even with a high AC because it is so abstract and can come from so many sources (equipment, dexterity, naturally tough hide, luck, alchemical, ect)


Those are probably better flaw choices, though I always have trouble justifying that the guy who is running around with a +30 in their perception skills is inattentive, or has a massive AC is still able to be called vulnerable, etc.

Dark, I don't think he was really trying to prove anything. The players even admitted that it was very much their fault for losing.

He kinda was though. 2nd page, reply 35:

"My point wasn't that a standard party would win where casters failed, it's that decent casters aren't always a win button even when the DM isn't being malicious."

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a great deal of things to do to eliminate almost all chance even at the low levels. That's what controlling an encounter is about. Had the OP's party been perfectly optimized, and still lost to a shadow and a wyrmling (beyond laughable) due to them rolling only 1s and the monsters only 20s all fight; I would have commented on their bad luck, not on their underoptimization.

The bold statement is a very bold statement to make. So much so that I have to call bull-spittle. Both education and experience have long since proven that no plan survives contact with the enemy. If you're perfectly in control of every encounter then the DM isn't even trying anymore, especially at low levels.

Under ideal circumstances you can eliminate -most- opportunities for chance to swing against you most of the time but ideal circumstances are a rare thing at best. Even "whiterooming" it will show this, much less actual play.

There's no doubt that the OP's players could've built and played their characters in a more optimal manner than they did but that doesn't change the fact that the dice -matter- at those levels. They matter far too much to dismiss them as you have, or at least appear to have.

[meemaas]

Ok, first off. As stated in the OP. This game was a test to see if a party of casters could handle anything thrown at them. There was never a mention of the level of optimization needed or expected. The test does not say that because we died, any party of only casters would. It simply says that being a party of casters does not in and of itself make everything die without a chance.

If we (the players) went into this to prove that casters could handle absolutely everything, then sure. We would have. That would have been a test of optimization though, and not a test on the basic assumption itself. That we weren't playing high to plausibly theoretical op wizards helps to solidify the test in that manner.

@emeraldstreak: If you really want to lord over your optimization skills over the forum, you can make your own topic and brag to your hearts content. Your comments do not have any bearing on this game, and in fact are irrelevant to the game because you aren't one of the players. And if you must know, three players sucumbed to a paralyzing breath in the second round. Two of them rolled respectively a four and a five on a DC 22 fort save. As an optimizing player, you know how strong that condition is. The moment the saving throw was failed, they were dead. Sure, they could have optimized ahead of time to prevent ever falling prey to such a condition, such as all of the players being necropolitan, but each player had their own plan to pursue and we didn't all want to make that specific choice.

In addition, the encounter was fielded against 9 enemies. The two most notable of which were the kobold and the shadow. Despite everything else being childs play to have overcome, we still had to deal with them while trying to take out the big guns.

All that said, and more that i had in mind but forgot due to keeping up on this conversation when i was supposed to be working. What bothers me most about where this thread went is that Emeraldstreak is effectively trying to hurl subtle insults at the players in this game because we didn't live up to his level of optimization. Same goes for anyone else who has commented as such. This is still a game to the players, and we aren't playing to be the de-facto paranoid wizards who have an answer to everything and immunity to everything three times over with contingencies upon contingencies to cover for the things we can't imagine.

[Boci]

Ok, first off. As stated in the OP. This game was a test to see if a party of casters could handle anything thrown at them. There was never a mention of the level of optimization needed or expected. The test does not say that because we died, any party of only casters would. It simply says that being a party of casters does not in and of itself make everything die without a chance.

And why did you feel the need to test that? As I said to your DM, the internet likes hyperbole, so whilst quite a few people say that, very few actually mean it.

[emeraldstreak]

What bothers me most about where this thread went is that Emeraldstreak is effectively trying to hurl subtle insults at the players in this game because we didn't live up to his level of optimization. Same goes for anyone else who has commented as such. This is still a game to the players, and we aren't playing to be the de-facto paranoid wizards who have an answer to everything and immunity to everything three times over with contingencies upon contingencies to cover for the things we can't imagine.

Why'd be insulting people I don't even know? I specifically went out of my way on a few occasions to say that none of my comments should be used as a judgement against the players. You did fine.


As for how dangerous paralyze, ability damage/drain, poison, even straight old melee are; yeah, I have an idea which ones I'll be facing in gauntlets or arenas and I prepare accordingly. But I don't in regular campaigns.

[meemaas]

And why did you feel the need to test that? As I said to your DM, the internet likes hyperbole, so whilst quite a few people say that, very few actually mean it.

The DM was the one who wanted to test it, we were the guinea pigs, so to speak. If we as players were looking to test it ourselves, everything would have gone down differently.

That said, at least from my experience, browsing the forums and even incidents with other dms, a lot of people do buy into the thought that a wizard can solve any and all problems at any and all levels, and the only reason the rest of the party is around is to take the blows and/or clean up after the wizard.


Why'd be insulting people I don't even know? I specifically went out of my way on a few occasions to say that none of my comments should be used as a judgement against the players. You did fine.


As for how dangerous paralyze, ability damage/drain, poison, even straight old melee are; yeah, I have an idea which ones I'll be facing in gauntlets or arenas and I prepare accordingly. But I don't in regular campaigns.

The players didn't go into this as a gauntlet or an arena. We went into this as a campaign. Despite the fact that it is 100% combat focused, we're playing from level 1 to level 20 all-inclusive. Leveling up and gaining loot as per the DMG. These fights aren't one offs. We fight a total of 13 encounters per level spread between the appropriate CRs for our APL and our confidence both, followed by one boss encounter, which is the one we lost on. We do not play expecting 15 minute adventuring days. We are limited to a total of three rest periods between the 13 encounters, and are given one extra before the boss encounter.

Basically, think of this like a campaign, except that the use of non-combat skills is left out.

[emeraldstreak]

The bold statement is a very bold statement to make. So much so that I have to call bull-spittle. Both education and experience have long since proven that no plan survives contact with the enemy. If you're perfectly in control of every encounter then the DM isn't even trying anymore, especially at low levels.

Under ideal circumstances you can eliminate -most- opportunities for chance to swing against you most of the time but ideal circumstances are a rare thing at best. Even "whiterooming" it will show this, much less actual play.

There's no doubt that the OP's players could've built and played their characters in a more optimal manner than they did but that doesn't change the fact that the dice -matter- at those levels. They matter far too much to dismiss them as you have, or at least appear to have.


That goes against the experience of mine and other arena champions. Believe it or not, even when pitching arena-optimized characters controlled by humans fighting for victory, it's extremely hard to unsettle champion builds regardless of luck.

As for gauntlets, most victories are done at margin so large against the monsters, luck doesn't matter that much either. In many cases the monsters are completely unable to attack meaningfully, in others reduced to natural 20s only, or obviously insufficient damage. Curiously, when the monsters win it's the same, a "curbstomp" as the OP himself said.

[emeraldstreak]

The players didn't go into this as a gauntlet or an arena. We went into this as a campaign. Despite the fact that it is 100% combat focused, we're playing from level 1 to level 20 all-inclusive. Leveling up and gaining loot as per the DMG. These fights aren't one offs. We fight a total of 13 encounters per level spread between the appropriate CRs for our APL and our confidence both, followed by one boss encounter, which is the one we lost on. We do not play expecting 15 minute adventuring days. We are limited to a total of three rest periods between the 13 encounters, and are given one extra before the boss encounter.

Basically, think of this like a campaign, except that the use of non-combat skills is left out.


I gathered as much. My point is your DM cannot use this story as a proof on the general stature of casters in DnD. The community gives them Tier 1, but only if played with according tactics; and in your case that would have required gauntlet tactics; while you were clearly playing a campaign with decently built characters for campaigns.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

One minor thing: wyrmling was not just a wyrmling, but a loredrake with class levels casting at or above or level.

[Boci]

One minor thing: wyrmling was not just a wyrmling, but a loredrake with class levels casting at or above or level.

What method of stat generation were you guys using?

[Nicol Bolas]

not really.

again, I feel like you have some different ideas of what it takes for a DM to accidentally wipe a lvl 1 party.

so sure, let's say a wizard party had setups something like that.

a CR appropriate encounter (much less a challenging or very difficult one) of a couple of orcs is more than capable of killing at least one or two party members with a lucky swing. dealing 2d4+4 with double on 18-20 is a very serious threat. this is exacerbated if you're using an abnormally large party of up to 8 as mentioned since it means more monsters on the field. at best, you maybe have 8 abrupt jaunts a day. in a battle involving 8 PCs, may well get swung at more than twice in each encounter on average. even if you allocate a few of your precious daily slots to shield or mage armor, one lucky hit will still kill you.

this is to say nothing of how non-caster characters can be obviated literally from lvl 1 by a bunch of monsters no further away than the srd. any rogue or skulking type who didn't take darkstalker, for example, is going to get picked up by cr 1/3 dogs any time he tries to steal something, which doesn't even require a DM being particularly malicious, especially if you're assigning combat encounters completely at random like OP is in this case.

this gets much worse as you progress, probably reaching its apex at lvl 3 when the game starts really trying to kill you with stuff like allips and shadows which, even if you have a few things that can cut the mustard as an all-caster party, will ruin your day very fast if you're low on slots or otherwise tapped out somehow.

Sleep?

How does Sleep not beat all the orcs?
One minor thing: wyrmling was not just a wyrmling, but a loredrake with class levels casting at or above or level.

Yeah, at that point, that's not "Casters can't handle something at this level," that's "Casters can't out-optimize a GM who has everything they have plus templates."

If my party is all level 20 incantatrixes all I have to do is throw level 21 incantatrixes at them and I win. That doesn't mean casters aren't the best choice at every level. It means that only casters can beat casters of an equivalent level.

Like do you think a fighter or a paladin would have changed anything about how that encounter went?

[Boci]

Sleep?

How does Sleep not beat all the orcs?

Casting time of 1 round leaves you vulnerable, as the orcs can presumably tell you are casting a spell. Even f you get it off, orcs don't autofail the save the save. They pass around 20% (best case scenario is 10% for a grey elf/halfling with 18 intelligence before racial mods and spell focus (enchantment) of the time, so some good rolls from them can still screw you over.

Plus its enchantment, so often banned by a specialist.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Illven himself stated he doubts a standard party would have faired any better. I'm of the same opinion. However, I do think we told have been better off with a summoner for the cannon fodder.

[Nicol Bolas]

Casting time of 1 round leaves you vulnerable, as the orcs can presumably tell you are casting a spell. Even f you get it off, orcs don't autofail the save the save. They pass around 20% (best case scenario is 10% for a grey elf/halfling with 18 intelligence before racial mods and spell focus (enchantment) of the time, so some good rolls from them can still screw you over.

Plus its enchantment, so often banned by a specialist.

Fine, if we assume you're not casting sleep at a distance that is perfectly reasonable, color spray.

Same result either way: The orcs lose. Especially if you have more than one player that can cast it if they somehow save.

[Boci]

Fine, if we assume you're not casting sleep at a distance that is perfectly reasonable, color spray.

Same result either way: The orcs lose. Especially if you have more than one player that can cast it if they somehow save.

Colour spray requires you to be close, and the area won't always allow for you to catch more than one.

Its a very powerful weapon, don't get me wrong, but its not fail save. Plus you are meant to have 4 encounters per day, and you will not have 4 coloursprays.

[emeraldstreak]

Like do you think a fighter or a paladin would have changed anything about how that encounter went?

A cleric would.

[Duskranger]

It was a BossFight which means a very difficult fight.

The opponents were:

Wyrmling Loredrake Sorceror
Evolved Shadow (try to kill that guy without it killing you).
4 skeletons of some sort
some kobold minions (1 warblade, one mage)

Or something like that.

Besides that Ilven knows what she does, and we as the party made the mistake of not knowingwhat we were doing :P

[emeraldstreak]

Casting time of 1 round leaves you vulnerable, as the orcs can presumably tell you are casting a spell. Even f you get it off, orcs don't autofail the save the save. They pass around 20% (best case scenario is 10% for a grey elf/halfling with 18 intelligence before racial mods and spell focus (enchantment) of the time, so some good rolls from them can still screw you over.

Plus its enchantment, so often banned by a specialist.

Probably not in campaigns, but in arenas Grey Elfs are usually aged too. Their DCs are very high.



Fine, if we assume you're not casting sleep at a distance that is perfectly reasonable, color spray.

Same result either way: The orcs lose. Especially if you have more than one player that can cast it if they somehow save.

Color Spray is a great Core spell. In arenas, it's often used with Ready Action + 5ft step to increase reach a bit. It's usually countered by Silence, not that the Orcs have anything to say about it.

But these are just core options. Out of core there are great many options for spells that outright defeat the Orcs; it's more about twinning them for a double one-shot, and acting prior to the Orcs under any circumstances.



As for the commoners, since Boci posted a party...I was waiting for the OP to provide their sources but I guess he's AWOL.

Optimized Commoner parties play as your average Walmart Bargain Bin UMD party. Consumables are cheap compared to the EL treasures their powerboost makes available to you. But at lvl 1, it's a bit more complex. Some sources allow starting gold to be increased (ie PF traits). Without gold, I was thinking of showcasing a few defensive tactics:

- probably a high AC character in the lines of Whisper Gnome with Titan Fighting and maybe some spell-like or hidden talent. And any mount for +4 Cover as much as possible.

- probably a high HP character. Normally hp aren't the best way to survive the low levels, but, say, if you happen to be a Dragonwrought...

- probably a stealth/mobility character

and that's about it, no need to use all slots.

[Esprit15]

Still haven't heard anything that prevents simple bad dice luck.

[Boci]

As for the commoners, since Boci posted a party...I was waiting for the OP to provide their sources but I guess he's AWOL.

Optimized Commoner parties play as your average Walmart Bargain Bin UMD party. Consumables are cheap compared to the EL treasures their powerboost makes available to you. But at lvl 1, it's a bit more complex. Some sources allow starting gold to be increased (ie PF traits). Without gold, I was thinking of showcasing a few defensive tactics:

- probably a high AC character in the lines of Whisper Gnome with Titan Fighting and maybe some spell-like or hidden talent. And any mount for +4 Cover as much as possible.

And how are you getting those? You get one feat, that is going to be dodge. Then you take a flaw for titan fighting. And then another two for hidden talent and a mount. Or are you buying the mount? If so, what are you assuming your starting gold is?

Flaws are generally capped at 2 though. Sure it isn't RAW that this limit exists, but then flaws themselves are an optional rules. Specifically I'm pretty sure. Any other sources for bonus feats?


- probably a high HP character. Normally hp aren't the best way to survive the low levels, but, say, if you happen to be a Dragonwrought...

- probably a stealth/mobility character

and that's about it, no need to use all slots.

And how are you going to kill the orcs? High AC, HP and stealth are good for staying alive, but they don't make opponents dead. Or are you just going to bypass the encounter.

[tyckspoon]

And how are you going to kill the orcs? High AC, HP and stealth are good for staying alive, but they don't make opponents dead. Or are you just going to bypass the encounter.

Commoners get 1 simple weapon proficiency. Crossbows are an *amazing* equalizer at low levels - a party of four with ready-to-fire crossbows (heavy if you have something else to do after you shoot, light if you think you're gonna have to reload and fire again in the same fight) have pretty good odds on any melee-only enemy, especially if a few of the party have enough feats and/or stat distribution to boost Initiative and get the first strike.

[Boci]

Commoners get 1 simple weapon proficiency. Crossbows are an *amazing* equalizer at low levels - a party of four with ready-to-fire crossbows (heavy if you have something else to do after you shoot, light if you think you're gonna have to reload and fire again in the same fight) have pretty good odds on any melee-only enemy, especially if a few of the party have enough feats and/or stat distribution to boost Initiative and get the first strike.

We aren't talking about equalizers though, we are talking about commoners curb stomping orcs. Having no problems with them.

[Agincourt]

Flaws are generally capped at 2 though. Sure it isn't RAW that this limit exists, but then flaws themselves are an optional rules. Specifically I'm pretty sure. Any other sources for bonus feats?


Yes, a character is limited to 2 flaws, and, yes, flaws are specifically optional rules from Unearthed Arcana. Here's the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), which is taken verbatim from UA:

Flaws are like the flip side of feats. Whereas a feat enables a character to be better than normal at performing a task (or even to do something that normal characters can't), a flaw restricts a character's capabilities or imposes a penalty of some sort.

A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the game master specifically allows it (for examples of times when doing this might be appropriate, see Character Traits). Each flaw a player selects entitles his character to a bonus feat. In other words, when you create a character, if you select two flaws, you can also take two bonus feats beyond those your character would be normally entitled to.

[Boci]

Yes, a character is limited to 2 flaws, and, yes, flaws are specifically optional rules from Unearthed Arcana. Here's the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), which is taken verbatim from UA:

Okay, I remembered the cap being more suggested, I'm glad this isn't the case.

[emeraldstreak]

And how are you getting those? You get one feat, that is going to be dodge. Then you take a flaw for titan fighting. And then another two for hidden talent and a mount. Or are you buying the mount? If so, what are you assuming your starting gold is?

Flaws are generally capped at 2 though. Sure it isn't RAW that this limit exists, but then flaws themselves are an optional rules. Specifically I'm pretty sure. Any other sources for bonus feats?



Optimized builds are tradionally done with 2 extra feats from flaws, yeah. I expect to be able to find a mount cheaply enough. It won't be a Ferrari.



And how are you going to kill the orcs? High AC, HP and stealth are good for staying alive, but they don't make opponents dead. Or are you just going to bypass the encounter.

With some very nonassuming weapons. The point of these characters is to be beyond the Orc ability to defeat even if they fight takes a while. The HP guy has ~100 hp. The mobility/stealth shouldn't be targetable at all. The AC guy optimization target is to be hit on natural 20 only, so he is the weakest link, but it's worth the risk to showcase the importance of AC. Orcs have 5 hp and no AC to speak of.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Re sleep and color spray vs orcs:

Gray elf wizard, int 20 puts the dc's at 10 + 1(spell level) + 5 (int) = 16

Typical orc warrior has will -2 and makes his save on an 18, 19, or 20. That is 15% of the time. That's only a 72.25% chance of successfully dropping 2 orcs -if- you can get them both with the same casting.



Then there's the tactical difficulty.

For sleep to completely shut down the encounter the caster must either begin casting in the surprise round -and- beat the enemies' initiative -or- begin casting when the orcs are further than 60ft away and, in either case, still has a 27.75% chance of failure. Further, in either case our wizard is dependent on the orcs being no more than 20ft from each other when the spell is delivered.

That's a lot of "ifs." If any of it goes wrong then the orc(s) get to act and there's a very real chance that someone in the party will be crit'ed and killed, the default orc having a falchion with a +4 attack bonus.



Then there's color spray: again dependent on the foes being clustered but now inside an area of only 5 or 6 contiguous squares arranged in a block immediately adjacent to you. Yikes. If you don't act first, there's a -very- good chance that they won't be close enough to each other.



Realistically, the odds are still in the party's favor but, then again, they should be. 2 orc warriors is an EL 1 encounter. A "boss" encounter could be as high as EL 4 and, thus, comprised of Eight orcs. Action economy, nigh impossible to hit all targets with one spell, terrible chance of dropping more than half if you do hit them all, severelyy weakened chance of winning the initiative..... it's just not going to happen unless the whole party can cast those so called "encounter ender" spells and luck is still a major factor.

[tyckspoon]

We aren't talking about equalizers though, we are talking about commoners curb stomping orcs. Having no problems with them.

Four commoners with bows won't have problems with a standard two-orc encounter. I'm not trying to say they'll win flawlessly regardless of what the dice do - I think that's an unsupportable claim. But as long as the situation isn't 'you walk through the door and two invisible orcs try to cut off your head before you can react', they'll win significantly more often than they lose. Which is what they're supposed to be able to do, and they don't even have the advantages of being PC classes.

[Boci]

Optimized builds are tradionally done with 2 extra feats from flaws, yeah. I expect to be able to find a mount cheaply enough. It won't be a Ferrari.

How much funds do you expect your commoners to have? And what mount are you assuming? It is war trained?


With some very nonassuming weapons. The point of these characters is to be beyond the Orc ability to defeat even if they fight takes a while. The HP guy has ~100 hp. The mobility/stealth shouldn't be targetable at all. The AC guy optimization target is to be hit on natural 20 only, so he is the weakest link, but it's worth the risk to showcase the importance of AC. Orcs have 5 hp and no AC to speak of.

How? You need cover or concealment to hide. How is a commoner getting hide in plain sight at level 1? Even if they are, its still -20 to hide after attacking, so he is only invisible until he attacks.

Assuming the mount thing works out and he gets constant cover, that isn't going to leave the guy with much money for armour, and he only gets +4 against one orc. He needs 23 AC to be hittable only a natural 20.

I'll check the dragon wrought template to see how you are getting around 100 hp at level 1.


Four commoners with bows won't have problems with a standard two-orc encounter. I'm not trying to say they'll win flawlessly regardless of what the dice do - I think that's an unsupportable claim. But as long as the situation isn't 'you walk through the door and two invisible orcs try to cut off your head before you can react', they'll win significantly more often than they lose. Which is what they're supposed to be able to do, and they don't even have the advantages of being PC classes.

Statistically they will need 3 or 4 shots to end the encounter (unless they are using heavy crossbows). They will have an attack bonus of +2-6, so they can still miss. Combat could start with orcs in charging range (dungeon, cave, heavy terrain), and whilst they will not be invisible, they could be hiding. Plus the commoners are meant to do this encounter 4 times per day.

[tyckspoon]

I'll check the dragon wrought template to see how you are getting around 100 hp at level 1.


I'd assume using the Old Dragon dodge to qualify for Epic feats and taking Epic Toughness a couple of times, depending on what sources of cheese you have to get extra feat slots (one feat to be Dragonwrought + 2 Flaws for Epic Toughness only gets you to maybe 70 HP, depending on Con, which is still enough to eat 8 average damage hits in the face from an Orc Falchion. 'course, you don't have any good way of getting that HP *back*, but I guess that's a different bridge.) I can't think of anything else that would give that much bulk HP - most other HP tricks rely on stat/HD scaling, which doesn't work all that well when you've only got the one HD.

[Boci]

I'd assume using the Old Dragon dodge to qualify for Epic feats and taking Epic Toughness a couple of times, depending on what sources of cheese you have to get extra feat slots (one feat to be Dragonwrought + 2 Flaws for Epic Toughness only gets you to maybe 70 HP, depending on Con, which is still enough to eat 8 average damage hits in the face from an Orc Falchion. 'course, you don't have any good way of getting that HP *back*, but I guess that's a different bridge.) I can't think of anything else that would give that much bulk HP - most other HP tricks rely on stat/HD scaling, which doesn't work all that well when you've only got the one HD.

Fair enough, but this gets back to an earlier point: that trick is beyond the bounds of optimization as seen by most people, even if the trick is legit (which it appears to be).

[lord_khaine]

Is it even legit? at least as i recall it is something that have been discussed quite a lot, and been regarded as very questionable at best.

And if the players does it, whats then stopping the gm from sending a couple of simular equiped kobolds after the party..?

[Boci]

Is it even legit? at least as i recall it is something that have been discussed quite a lot, and been regarded as very questionable at best.

Yes. The question is whether kobolds qualify as true dragons, but that appears to be another issue, because the draconomicom doesn't specify true dragons for qualifying epic feats, mere that they be dragon and old. If they have picked any other age category a kobold would have been unable to qualify, but old is the one category true dragons and true dragons and humanoids share.

[Bonzai]

Lol, We did something similar, except our campaign ended at 15th level. At that point the DM was throwing Titans and epic level advanced dragons at us. I was kind of bummed that we didn't reach 9th level spells, but could see why the DM decided to cry uncle.

I am not sure what the OP's party consisted of, but we were all Specialist wizards that went into master specialist. Our party consisted of;

Conjurer (Me): (Focused Conjurer3 /Master Specialist 10/Thaumaturgist 2, Focused on battle field control for the most part, with summons on tap and nice AoE's to help out as a secondary damage dealer. Also worked with spell sequencer and similar spells for action economy. If I had the chance, I could have cast 5 gates in a round thanks to master specialists conjuring capstone and boots of temporal acceleration. I really don't blame my DM for ending the campaign before then.

Abjurer: Abjurer 3/Master specialist?: Don't remember the exact build, but this character had dispelling and counter magic locked down. In any encounter we were more or less guaranteed to have magical superiority. Some battles he didn't do much, but when he was needed he was insanely good.

Transmuter: Transmuter 3/ master specialist?/War Weaver?: This build buffed us to hell and back, and then helped the Abjurer with trouble shooting.

Evoker: Evoker 3/Master Specialist?: He was our primary damage dealer and the most straight forward. He had some tricks for over coming SR and energy resistance, but was mostly a blaster type.

Early on we did depend a lot on my summons (Nexus Method helped a lot there), but eventually I switched out to battle field control. Evards and Caustic Mire on an area, then using dimensional hop and dimensional shuffle to offensively teleport enemies onto the area (I heightened them a lot), and then let the Evoker tee off on them. Abjurer would counter any magical solutions that they had to that, and most encounters were in the bag. I find that in this kind of group, dividing up the responsibilities is really helpful.

[emeraldstreak]

Plus the commoners are meant to do this encounter 4 times per day.

The exact challenge matters greatly. I mentioned ideas for builds showcasing various successful defenses against melee in one fight against Orcs.

However, optimized Commoner campaigns would work differently. Firstly, does it have simulationist approach? If so, PCs can Craft/Handle Animal prior to adventuring. Are any additional starting gold methods available? If not, the characters should head back to shop after the first treasure. Locations for the campaign matter, ie the OP had a flat plane all the time: under this condition mobility is greatly rewarded, while stealth builds must bring their own concealment.


Also, keep in mind "optimized" comes with benefits. Access to a great amount of legal tricks (infinite loops notwithstanding). Using the high stats usually awarded to the characters in such challenges.

[Boci]

The exact challenge matters greatly. I mentioned ideas for builds showcasing various successful defenses against melee in one fight against Orcs.

"Builds" is a bit of a generous term for what you had done. You haven't explained how the AC guy is getting a value of 24, or how you intended stealth to work reliably at level 1. using terrain for cover is fine and dandy for most intents and purposes, but not for a claim of near absolute success rate.

[emeraldstreak]

ideas for builds


"Builds" is a bit of a generous term for what you had done. You haven't explained how the AC guy is getting a value of 24, or how you intended stealth to work reliably at level 1. using terrain for cover is fine and dandy for most intents and purposes, but not for a claim of near absolute success rate.

Obviously not complete builds by any stretch (and neither were yours). Polishing highly optimized builds takes time I won't waste outside actual challenges with decent participation.

Mind you, a mobility/stealth build. Basically, an "untargetable" build for the Orcs. Specifics depend on terrain, illumination, weather, etc; once sources are defined and we aren't even there. For AC, if I feel the setup is safe enough for Dodge/Titan-fight their worth of 5 AC plus size/Dex plus minor equipment bonuses (depends on gold) or cover (depends on securing the right mount) will be enough to cover AC 23 (preferably 25 actually). If not I can drop that idea and go for another race altogether, strongheart halfing or an obscure high dex/high size AC race. On the side are options like Vow of Poverty (for one encounter if gold's truly problematic), Hidden Talent, various spell-like sources like Eberron; and that's on top of my head only (and no 3.P stuff either). Also, don't forget defensive fighting, including via readied actions.

Finally, these are not even the most effective orc-killing commoners, best effects usually reside in a balance between defense and offense. Those are showcase builds for defense, because defense is where players of decent skill lack compared to players of exceptional skill. That's very obvious in arenas where decent players usually build powerful but one-trick ponies like Water Orc lion totem whirling frenzy mad foam rager chargers; or a stealth rogue sniper of a skulky race, or a Grey Elf with insane DCs, or a Fell Drain mage of sorts. Despite them being deadly to normal characters or even parties, none of these, even taken as a variety of vastly different encounters, are threats to champion builds as the latter have exceptional defense/control. High optimization gauntlets are usually similar in that respect.