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Variable Arcana
2007-03-22, 09:04 AM
Aside from the Polymorph series (Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange), are there any Core (or near-core) spells that you routinely ban when DMing?

Baalzebub
2007-03-22, 09:08 AM
Wish, Miracle and similars. Because in the hand of players these spells spoil a lot of fun.

Orzel
2007-03-22, 09:16 AM
I don't ban spells I nerf them (Massive Con damage).

Vodun
2007-03-22, 09:27 AM
Wish and Miracle, simply because if a god is going to help you, they're gonna come down and do it themselves, of their own volition, not because the guy just happens to be willing to give up some XP.

Telonius
2007-03-22, 09:37 AM
Polymorph.

Celerity is considered Core?

Pocket lint
2007-03-22, 09:42 AM
I haven't decided to outright ban anything yet. I *am* nerfing any spells that would change BAB into simply not doing that. So Divine Power gives you +6 to str and 1 hp/level, but nothing else.

Saph
2007-03-22, 09:43 AM
Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange are banned for obvious reasons. Ditto no-save ability damage spells like Ray of Stupidity. Alter Self is okay as long as you don't try and combine it with outsider status.

I try to avoid Disjunction since it can wipe out an entire party's items in one casting, which isn't much fun for anyone.

Other spells are done on a common sense basis: e.g. using Gate to travel or negotiate a deal with an outsider is fine, but free wishes = no.

- Saph

NotCC
2007-03-22, 09:45 AM
Another one who bans Wish/Miracle only. But if you have a good DM and follow these spells by the way they are written even they aren't that bad.

Pauwel
2007-03-22, 10:11 AM
I don't ban anything. My players don't normally power-game, and on the few occasions they do I'll just tell them to stop.
Yes, I have a very nice group. :)

Golthur
2007-03-22, 10:12 AM
Aside from polymorph and wish, not a lot of core banning - more mutual agreements than anything else.

Disjunction has a "mutually assured destruction" clause associated with it - I don't use it, my players don't use it (and vice versa when I'm playing). Likewise, many of the non-save rays also have mutual-destruction policies.

Morty
2007-03-22, 10:18 AM
Aside from Polymorph, we don't use Rope Trick or similiar spells from preety obvious reasons.

Lord Tataraus
2007-03-22, 10:24 AM
I don't ban spells, though I have never had a wizard use polymorph yet. I just run extrmely low to no magic campiagns where the spellcasters are like Duskblades and Rangers.

Deus Mortus
2007-03-22, 10:25 AM
As long as players don't abuse it, they can use it, if they abuse something, it dissapears from their spell list, but only theirs, no need to punish all players for *******ry of one player.

talsine
2007-03-22, 11:13 AM
i ban the whole polymorph line (even alterself), and i nerf Miracle so its costs xp just like wish does. I also don't allow shadow contingencies, but thats just a personal flavor issue. I also ban non-core (outside of the PHB) spells on a case by case basis.

I also nerf spiked chains, no AoO's with it when used as a reach weapon makes it not nearly as nasty.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 11:31 AM
Resurrection, Reincarnation, True Resurrection, Raise Dead.

Death is death is death, and damn is it permanent.

talsine
2007-03-22, 11:35 AM
Resurrection, Reincarnation, True Resurrection, Raise Dead.

Death is death is death, and damn is it permanent.

never been an issue, no one wants to pay for res in my games, and we have so few clerics (partly because we tend to play Iron Kingdoms which makes healing non-members of your faith ugly) that in party res isn't really an option either.

mikeejimbo
2007-03-22, 11:51 AM
The DM for the campaign I'm in doesn't ban Wish or Miracle, he just makes us never want to use them except in extreme emergencies, and he has some limits on what we can wish for.

jjpickar
2007-03-22, 12:04 PM
How Celerity is even considered Core (it is, I believe, in the PHBII after all) is beyond me. Banned all the way.

Galathir
2007-03-22, 12:54 PM
I don't outright ban spells, but I might ban some depending on the campaign, player, and situation.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-03-22, 01:03 PM
I [effectively] ban all the magic that raises the dead. The ability to bring back the dead might be out there somewhere, but it's not done as the listed SRD spells.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-22, 01:48 PM
I don't "ban" anything.

My players know the rules, don't abuse it and you can use it. A disjunction or two throughout your career? Thats fine. A disjunction per encounter? Your enemies start to use it as well.

Its the same with all spells. As a DM I won't abuse then (short of plot related reasons every now and then) and I expect my players to do the same. If you want to use it every now and then its fine by me. If the wizard wants to go all cheesy for 2 encounters per level I'm fine with it, but much more than that and the baddies start to do it as well.


As a player I don't abuse them but if they aren't banned I'll put them on my spell list. And prepare one or two per day even. Polymorph can replicate enlarge, shrink, fly, and be a disguise. Just don't abuse it.

Twisted.Fate
2007-03-22, 03:28 PM
I ban things on a case-by-case basis. My players know I hate the Polymorph line, but fortunately, our sorcerer is disinclined to use it. I've also banned all Vigor-line spells higher than Lesser Vigor, because it's just not fair to be able to get back 50hp in downtime without rolling any dice. For a second-level spell. Ridiculous.

Quietus
2007-03-22, 03:34 PM
I don't ban any spells, nor does my DM - but we also play extremely low power games 9/10 times. Aside from a single epic game that they've had going for years, that I joined when I met them, the highest level we're running is 6.

I've considered pulling out some serious cheese at times... particularly in that epic game. Fighting a Deity, yay! I was going to make a bag of holding full of skelebombs for something like 600d6 or more damage, but decided against it. Sure, I can polycheese or skelebomb my way to victory, but that takes a lot of the fun out of things.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-22, 03:42 PM
I consider banning to be a cop-out. If I don't want something in there, I instead decide why I don't want it in there and just remove or alter that function.

MaxKaladin
2007-03-22, 03:49 PM
Disjunction has a "mutually assured destruction" clause associated with it - I don't use it, my players don't use it (and vice versa when I'm playing). Likewise, many of the non-save rays also have mutual-destruction policies.Our group has a similar policy regarding Feeblemind.

Disjunction has never been much of a problem. Our DMs don't tend to use it against players and players who try to use it tend to get chewed out by the other players for destroying potential loot.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-22, 03:56 PM
I also nerf spiked chains, no AoO's with it when used as a reach weapon makes it not nearly as nasty.

Oh, come on. They can get the same effect as the chain with a guisarme and some armor spikes. The chain's one of the few exotic weapons worth the EWP feat (bastard sword? A feat to go from 1d8 to 1d10? Come on), that's all; no reason to nerf it.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-22, 04:13 PM
Oh, come on. They can get the same effect as the chain with a guisarme and some armor spikes. The chain's one of the few exotic weapons worth the EWP feat (bastard sword? A feat to go from 1d8 to 1d10? Come on), that's all; no reason to nerf it.

Except that it's a dumb weapon and should be nerfed so no one's tempted to use one.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-22, 04:16 PM
And yet you don't see people trying to ban the dire flail.
And shooting like an arrow every second is somehow possible.

Banning it for the sake of verisimilitude, okay, whatever (but it's not that bad--there are pictures in the Complete Warrior and PHB II that show non-totally-stupid "spiked chains), but nerfing it is dumb.

NullAshton
2007-03-22, 04:16 PM
My DM hasn't outright banned any spells, and when I'm going to be a DM soon, I won't ban any spells either. If anyone tries abusing them, I will just tell the player to not do that. Simple!

Dark_Wind
2007-03-22, 04:39 PM
The only core spell I take serious issue with is MDJ, because it's a goddamned tactical nuke, and it will invariably piss someone off if it gets used. People tend to get attached to their magic items.

MobiusKlein
2007-03-22, 04:40 PM
The worst thing about the Polymorph / Alter Self line is not just the balance, but the massive amount of bookkeeping required to use the spell. You nearly have to redo your entire sheet to make it right.
For every form you p-morph to.
Then haggle over which abilities are unbalancing, which are special / racial, etc. Sucks the Fun out of DnD.

Dark_Wind
2007-03-22, 04:47 PM
That's why you handle the bookeeping between sessions, and don't try to pull anything stupid that might result in a justifiably angry DM.

Orzel
2007-03-22, 04:47 PM
The worst thing about the Polymorph / Alter Self line is not just the balance, but the massive amount of bookkeeping required to use the spell. You nearly have to redo your entire sheet to make it right.
For every form you p-morph to.
Then haggle over which abilities are unbalancing, which are special / racial, etc. Sucks the Fun out of DnD.

My DM gives you 2 minutes to create a new sheet or the spell fails. No arguing. He's funny like that.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-22, 04:51 PM
Make sheets for polymorphed forms (just like for summoned things) in advance.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-22, 04:53 PM
And yet you don't see people trying to ban the dire flail.
And shooting like an arrow every second is somehow possible.

Banning it for the sake of verisimilitude, okay, whatever (but it's not that bad--there are pictures in the Complete Warrior and PHB II that show non-totally-stupid "spiked chains), but nerfing it is dumb.

You get hot under the collar when someone mentions monkey grip.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-22, 04:57 PM
Yeah, so? You don't see me saying that it should be nerfed for the sake of verisimilitude.

Dorni
2007-03-22, 05:12 PM
Our group doesn't ban any spells. If a player wants to do summonings or polymorphs, they make up sheets for said effects between sessions, usually the form isn't choosen on the fly. We prevent abuse with a simple understanding - when someone is being cheezy, everyone knows it regardless of whether it fits the rules. The DM can abuse those same rules much better than any player.

ocato
2007-03-22, 05:14 PM
Alter Self isn't really as bad as polymorph if I do say so. You just pick up a few natural bonii in certain forms that are rarely implimented. It's really a glorified uber-disguise in most people's hands. My DM has threatened to take away Shout and Greater Shout once or twice. Not because the spell is unbalanced, but because when the wizard and I took higher ground and ambushed the would-be ambushers, it maked him cry to see that many d6s fly into his squadron of "elite guards".

Also, enlighten me, what is Celerity?

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-22, 05:21 PM
Yeah, so? You don't see me saying that it should be nerfed for the sake of verisimilitude.

Yeah, so? You don't see me saying that it should be nerfed for the sake of verisimilitude.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-22, 05:24 PM
I am entirely confused as to what your point is. My point is that the spiked chain is not overpowered, nor should it be nerfed: if you don't think it should exist at all, just remove it rather than nerfing it.

Orzel
2007-03-22, 05:28 PM
Make sheets for polymorphed forms (just like for summoned things) in advance.

You have to create the sheet in 2 minutes and prove it. "That's a submitting, not creating."

You can of course, e-mail the sheet to yourself and print it out during the game. The printer creates the sheet. Just pray for no printer jams and good ink.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-22, 05:33 PM
Umm... that rule just sounds like the DM being a jerk, then.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-22, 05:36 PM
I am entirely confused as to what your point is. My point is that the spiked chain is not overpowered, nor should it be nerfed: if you don't think it should exist at all, just remove it rather than nerfing it.

Bummer, I guess.

AmoDman
2007-03-22, 05:42 PM
Tor, you stopped making sense about an hour and a half ago. I'm not even sure what you're talking about now. BWL's point is simple -

The Spiked Chain isn't overpowered considering you have to spend a feat to get it, most Exotic Weapons are underpowered, but if you simply don't like the weapon's existence, then why allow it at all? Who are you trying to stick it to, the EWP feat?

Deus Mortus
2007-03-22, 06:35 PM
You get hot under the collar when someone mentions monkey grip.

Damnit! Now I want to create a thread saying MONKEY GRIP IS OVERPOWERED! Because BWL's rants always amuse me, damn you!

AmoDman
2007-03-22, 06:45 PM
Damnit! Now I want to create a thread saying MONKEY GRIP IS OVERPOWERED! Because BWL's rants always amuse me, damn you!

I wouldn't mind seeing that thread. I think Monkey Grip is alright when used intelligently at low levels, but you certainly might be missing that "wasted" feat at higher levels

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-22, 08:16 PM
Campaign Home Rules Very Rare for a High Level Miracle or Wish Game:

No Polymorph unless leveling up from level 1 or 2 and No starting the campaign with a planar template like +0 Aisimar or Tiefling or the like unless a Specialist Wizard with Transmutation as One of the Banned Schools. Basically under the concept that the PCs shouldn't know these game mechanics likewise No BBEGs will either.

No Shapechange unless Paid For leveling up from level 1 or 2. To many of the optimal CoD builds are not Optimal for actual play leveling up.

No Shapechanging into a Zodar or Efreeti or other Creature like a Varakhut and casting Freebie Wishes (That comes under the heading of Altering Reality in a Major Way and Planar Lords Start Taking Notice if They Haven't Already):

First Thing that happens is a "Soul Locked" Template Zodar shows up and starts following the abuser around and doing Chaotic Things around the party usually to the partie's detriment. Offing the offending Zodar results in another Zodar showing up and using the Wish ability against the abuser or party detriment for the year (Psychic Reformation..............). Maybe a Varakhut shows up next or

No Freebie "Clever" Wishes: Efreeti Twist Them Regardless of your Diplomacy Check and Automatically Twisted if Charmed or Equivalent.

Tape recording the Wish and calling a Time Out to Interpret it is a nice touch. No "And or Ands" are permitted in Wishes. No Written Wishes. Other than "Duplicate the Spell Effect ....." the player must speak the wish out loud saying exactly what they meant to say allowing for stumbling over a word or redirecting the Wish. Hey the PC is Altering Reality after all.

Effreeti Shapechanger Abusers automatically summoned to the Elemental Plane of Fire and Imprisoned in one of the Magical Prison Cells of the Octagon in the City of Brass for review by Efreeti Nobles of the City of Brass.

A nice way to prevent Miracle abuse is to charge 1,000 - 4,000 Exp points per standard casting and 2,000 - 8,000 Exp points for Greater Miracles or Limit to 1D4 a year for an Alignment Typed Saint Template generally limited to one per group max.

Reincarnation costs 1,000 Exp instead of GP and costs Three to Six Times standard spell costs + 5,000 GP for the experience.

Raise Dead Three to Six Times more expensive than standard spell costs + 25,000 GP because it costs 5,000 Exp instead of a diamond.

PCs don't exist in a vacuum if they have two or three standard routine style attacks they use constantly which work. Some of the BBEGs are mercenaries and are going to study up on them and find a way to counter those attacks or incorporate them into their own. (Less of a problem if they move around a lot).

The Cheapest Miracle/Wish is via the Gate spell and a successful Miracle/Wish Intelligence Arcana, Planes or Religion check DC20 as per the PHB text as Sages have done studies of this phenomena over the centuries.

C Harnryd
2007-03-23, 01:12 AM
I routinely ban spells for flavour purposes (i. e. I want country X to be full of undead, so I ban spells that returns dead to life, forcing people to turn dead persons into undead if they want them back).

I do nerf Time Stop a little by having time-travelling monsters appear and attack the accelerated caster now and then.
It's not primarily a balance issue, but it disrupts play in exactly the same way as when a PC leaves the group for a solo expedition.

marjan
2007-03-23, 02:38 AM
How come noone bans Natural Spell? :smalltongue:

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 03:51 AM
People do. In fact, the core druid doesn't exist in games I run; the much better-balanced PHB II Shapeshift variant does.

akira72703
2007-03-23, 04:01 PM
I do not ban spells. Spells I think are broken or overpowered usually get an xp per use or an expensive spell component to cast them or their level gets adjusted up or a combination of all of the above.
In addition to this, I do not give the "learn 2 spells everytime you level" out. If arcane spellcasters in my game want spells above 5th level they quest for them or make pacts with outer planar powers (or dragons) for them. Clerics also are similarly restricted in this manner.

talsine
2007-03-23, 06:47 PM
People do. In fact, the core druid doesn't exist in games I run; the much better-balanced PHB II Shapeshift variant does.

I do the same thing. Tends to lead to many fewer druids. /shrugz

as far as the spiked chain goes, nerfing it the way i do makes it as useful as the rest of the exotic weapons, its either that, more buff the rest of them. And i'm much too lazy to do that.

Course, since its more of an asian style weapon anyway, and i remove most of that from my games as well (by by monk and monk special weapons) its rarely a bit issue.

Sky_Schemer
2007-03-23, 07:06 PM
Resurrection, Reincarnation, True Resurrection, Raise Dead.

Death is death is death, and damn is it permanent.

I suppose that's one approach, but...

At the higher levels, monsters with CR's high enough to challenge the players are, well...deadly. That, and the higher level spells are littered with death effects. The expectation, and the justification, is that a party of sufficiently high level has a way of bringing people back from the dead.

Even the MM section on play-testing monsters says that, for 11th level and up a player death or two is not out of line since "parties of that level can usually bring dead characters back to life".

Personally, I'd find myself not enjoying a game where death was so easy to come by and so hard to fix.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-23, 07:15 PM
Anything with Polymorph in the name. All my players have access to the PHB2 and Spell Compendium, so they get to use the Polymorph subschool instead.

Shapechange hasn't come up, and I'm tempted to ban it, buuuut. Ninth level spell. They're practically supposed to be broken. If I expected to spend most of the campaign at level 17+, that, Wish, and Miracle would likely be eliminated as well.

Pyrian
2007-03-23, 08:21 PM
Hmm. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the banes which my group nerfs or eliminates altogether: web and teleport.

TempusCCK
2007-03-23, 08:39 PM
Eh, I run an extremely low magic campaign, pretty much all divine with severe limits on damage dealing and polymorphing. I've pretty much banned the entire wizard class.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-03-23, 09:20 PM
I nerf Polymorph. I make it so that you only obtain special abilities (rounded to your stats) but your stats remain your stats.

Roland St. Jude
2007-03-23, 09:53 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: For those of you arguing about weapons and monkey grip, please stop. It is off-topic for this thread about spells. Also, because it is already a rather contentious discussion, I'd suggest that you not open a new thread to continue it. Thank you.

Zeta Kai
2007-03-23, 10:07 PM
I personally dislike Comprehend Languages. It completely negates the need for Decipher Script. I discourage its use, but I've never had an issue where I've had to say to a player, "Alright, that's it. That spell is so banned." I suppose I'm prepared to do so if need be, but I've been lucky that I've never had to. Once you start banning spells, it's a slippery slope to perdition...

Rainspattered
2007-03-23, 10:16 PM
I don't ban spells, I ban being a douchebag. Miracle is acceptable if it is the sort of event where devout priest calls upon his god and his god grants him a miracle. Polymorph has many practical uses that aren't its broken side. Every spell has a reason to exist (although Wish is somewhat bothersome, from a purely fluff standpoint), core or not, and very few are inherently broken if you just have players not be an ass about it.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-24, 09:09 AM
Since I tend to use entirely homebrewed magic systems, I don't usually have a problem. But if I'm playing core...

I usually ban the Polymorph family of spells, and replace them with the xenomorph/anthromorph/etc. family visible in the gaming articles to your left, because I've found they truly do solve the problems those spells present while allowing shapechanging (which many players of course enjoy).

I ban any spell (or indeed anything) for which I don't have the rules text to hand, ideally in hardcover, so Celerity etc. is right out.

I usually allow miracle and wish becuase there is no such thing as perfect wording, but as it amounts to 'player fiat', it invites 'DM fiat'.

I allow most dead-raising spells, except true ressurection; I'm nice that way.
I've been experimenting with allowing true ressurection but tacking on a behind-the-scenes vulnerability to possession and some other effects- so far nobody's figured out why the guy they brought back from the dead keeps failing saves against confusion and insanity effects.

I don't ban time stop, I just use strict interpretation of it, which usually precludes the main abuses thereof.

Rigeld2
2007-03-24, 10:03 AM
I don't ban time stop, I just use strict interpretation of it, which usually precludes the main abuses thereof.
Please explain what you mean.