Your favorite difficult options in 3.5

[WarKitty]

This is a pseudo-optimization thread. It's for those of us who optimized, broke things, annoyed the rest of the party, and then decided to not do that again. We still like to optimize, but it's more fun for everyone to find a thing that's fun and iconic but hard to do, and try to do it well.

So here's what I'm looking for. I'm looking fun tricks that are:
(1) Suitable for play in a serious game
(2) Not game-breakingly obnoxious
(3) Difficult to do properly or specially fun/interesting/unique

So let's go for it!

[Urpriest]

Incarnum classes tend to fall in this category, particularly the Incarnate. Binder as well arguably. They're both classes you really can't get the most out of without being smart and using all of the resources at your disposal, but even if you do you won't (provided you avoid Zceryll on the Binder) break the game.

[Extra Anchovies]

Shuriken-throwing Monk.

[Blackhawk748]

This is a pseudo-optimization thread. It's for those of us who optimized, broke things, annoyed the rest of the party, and then decided to not do that again. We still like to optimize, but it's more fun for everyone to find a thing that's fun and iconic but hard to do, and try to do it well.

So here's what I'm looking for. I'm looking fun tricks that are:
(1) Suitable for play in a serious game
(2) Not game-breakingly obnoxious
(3) Difficult to do properly or specially fun/interesting/unique

So let's go for it!

Sword and Board Fighter. Yes Straight Fighter without Fear based shenanigans.

Lion Spirit Totem 1/Fighter 9/Soldier of Light 10

Ok you take Agile Shield Fighter, Shield Ward, as well as the Shield Slam line. Then take the Resolute ACF to bulk up your Will save. Are you OP no, are you competent at smacking things with a shield and weapon and are you good at belting undead even harder? Yes. As a bonus you get Divine Grave from Soldier of Light as well as some spells.

[WarKitty]

Most mundane dex-based melee builds fall under this, and especially if you want to use a tricky fighter concept in straight 3.5. PF is a bit more friendly to them.

[Invader]

I had a werebear character who would get really big and then used the snatch feat with some other stuff I forget at the moment to pick up large and smaller monsters and just throw them around with impunity. It was entirely gimmiky but unless specifically countered he was kind of ridiculous.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Truenamer

Monk

Soulknife

All difficult to play well, all fairly weak even if you amp them up to 11, all hella fun to my twisted, mildly masochistic mind.

[Forrestfire]

A warlock/binder theurge. I like both of them, and it's fun to have a whole bunch of all day abilities (and if the DM interprets Complete Arcane's sudden metamagic passage to apply to all metamagics that don't affect level, even better).

It's difficult to pull off because of the amount of feats required to enter into Anima Mage as binder/warlock, and then you need Legacy Champion to keep going since there isn't another theurge for them. All kinds of awkward, but also fun.

[WarKitty]

Truenamer

Monk

Soulknife

All difficult to play well, all fairly weak even if you amp them up to 11, all hella fun to my twisted, mildly masochistic mind.

I'd be wary of truenamer because it seems like the sort of thing that switches between "Not working at all" and "holy crap what just happened."

A battlefield control monk would be lots of fun though. I've also considered stacking monk/druid and just sort of ignoring most spells (maybe take the spontaneous healing variant) and going to town as a melee beast. Not exactly low-power, but it's a lot worse than me playing druid to its full power!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nah, truenamer looks like it could be dangerous on paper (at level 20) but it really can't do anything a real caster can't do at least half a dozen levels before the truenamer.

[Irk]

Paladin or Ranger. Both are pretty dull, traditionally, especially Paladin, but they have some fantastic options that can be mixed and matched to create some truly amazing things. Also, anything that incorporates knight, with that difficult terrain ability (see the knight-druid in my sig). Pretty much any martial class pursuing some sort of specialty that it is not meant to. This times means using variant-chaining, which, if allowed, can be a lot of fun, but is not really RAW.

[Extra Anchovies]

A battlefield control monk would be lots of fun though. I've also considered stacking monk/druid and just sort of ignoring most spells (maybe take the spontaneous healing variant) and going to town as a melee beast. Not exactly low-power, but it's a lot worse than me playing druid to its full power!

My favorite way to play Druid is to take the Deadly Hunter and Druidic Avenger variants from UA.

What's lost:
Animal Companion
Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally
[not a loss, but a reduction] Wild Empathy is at -4
Armor/Shield proficiency
Wild Shape


What you gain:
AC (including Wis to AC) bonus and fast movement as monk
Favored Enemy, Track, and Swift Tracker as ranger
Fast Movement as barbarian
Rage (as 1st-level barbarian; no greater/mighty rage or indomitable will) 1/day +1 per 5 levels above 1st
Tireless rage at 17th level

If you still want an animal companion and/or spontaneous summoning, both can be acquired via feats (Wild Cohort and Spontaneous Summoning). Even without them, you're still a full caster and have some fairly decent options for melee support: cast some buffs on yourself, throw down a summon or two, and go to town with Rage.

[WarKitty]

My favorite way to play Druid is to take the Deadly Hunter and Druidic Avenger variants from UA.

What's lost:
Animal Companion
Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally
[not a loss, but a reduction] Wild Empathy is at -4
Armor/Shield proficiency
Wild Shape


What you gain:
AC (including Wis to AC) bonus and fast movement as monk
Favored Enemy, Track, and Swift Tracker as ranger
Fast Movement as barbarian
Rage (as 1st-level barbarian; no greater/mighty rage or indomitable will) 1/day +1 per 5 levels above 1st
Tireless rage at 17th level

If you still want an animal companion and/or spontaneous summoning, both can be acquired via feats (Wild Cohort and Spontaneous Summoning). Even without them, you're still a full caster and have some fairly decent options for melee support: cast some buffs on yourself, throw down a summon or two, and go to town with Rage.

See, I'm usually the exact opposite - what I want from a toned-down druid is the ability to maul people to death. Wildshape ranger/warshifter is a more fun bonus. Though I could see stacking those variants with warshifter and some other prestige classes.

Now I want to put that build together. Be back later!

[Curmudgeon]

What I like to do is make a character that can contribute reasonably at every stage of the game: exploring, in social negotiations, against traps, and in combat. I think the Rogue is the class which is hardest to make work well, but I enjoy the challenge.

[Fax Celestis]

Centaur Druid/Hulking Hurler with Fling Ally and Augment Summoning is my favorite ridiculous trick. Summon bears, then throw them at people.

[Snowbluff]

A warlock/binder theurge. I like both of them, and it's fun to have a whole bunch of all day abilities (and if the DM interprets Complete Arcane's sudden metamagic passage to apply to all metamagics that don't affect level, even better).

It's difficult to pull off because of the amount of feats required to enter into Anima Mage as binder/warlock, and then you need Legacy Champion to keep going since there isn't another theurge for them. All kinds of awkward, but also fun.

I've been know to do this.

Another one is my Iaijutsu bard.

[gorfnab]

A properly built mundane "Mage Slayer" can be difficult to do. Here is a build I came up with that sort of works.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF (CM)
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF (CC), Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis (BoED): Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF (UA)
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer (CArc)
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment (CArc)
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still (XPH)
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer (CW) and Witch Slayer (ToM) can be switched around as needed.

Warblade (ToB) nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader (ToB) nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.


A "Fencer" or one handed stereotypical "Swashbuckler" type build is also a little tricky. I have heard some mumblings about the Pathfinder Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler). Here is my Einhander Duelist build.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

The Monk and Swashbuckler levels (levels 1 through 5) can be switched around to taste. I personally like Swash 1/ Monk 2/ Swash 2.

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.


And lastly a "Spartan" or "Hoplite". This is much easier to do in Pathfinder thanks to Phalanx Soldier Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/phalanx-soldier). However if you're stuck with 3.5 The Spartan Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ejbomniqeac0m3d0s90is0rge6&topic=4963) presents some interesting options.

[JackRackham]

I'm AFB and the specifics elude me, but high-int, high-dex, TWF rogue/swashbuckler PrC'd into Scarlet Corsair to be a tricky combatant who uses guile to get a leg up in combat (by feinting and sneak attacking) fits the bill. You're a mundane jack-of-all trades who can decimate humanoids in a melee. You can also go into Champion of Corellon Larethian for dex to damage, but the feat tax and loss of the human bonus feat probably make this less than ideal.

Factotum with a dip in Swordsage is another fun jack-of-all-trades who can nova once per day at level 9 (polymorph into an eight-headed pyrohydra and use cunning surge to attack 32 times in one round, for example) and has good staying power. Optional rogue dip for some extra damage through sneak attack.

Also, any of a number of rogue-scout, scout-monk, ranger-scout builds come to mind (possibly with a dip in lion spirit totem barbarian for pounce). Hell dodge-mobility-spring attack might even be worthwhile.

A lot of these builds would work better in 3.P.

[WarKitty]

A lot of them work great when you're in a party next to the guy who's built a PhB fighter or something. For those of us who just can't stop optimizing...

[A_S]

I enjoy the challenge of trying for "dedicated healer that doesn't suck."

Also gishes that don't feel completely run-of-the-mill (i.e., have something interesting going on other than "I cast spells and hit things, and am competent at both").

[WarKitty]

A well done arcane archer.

[gorfnab]

A well done arcane archer.
Here's one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=fnlthku30b80o22mlj3bqm4jh4&topic=525.20) (third post down)

Otherwise this can work, however it only takes two levels of Arcane Archer
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

[Snowbluff]

Arcane Archers are crazy easy to abuse.

[killianh]

For me I always liked Beguiler. With the amount of things that end up with immunity to mind affecting effects in later play making one work well at all levels has always been a nice challenge (without relying on the handbook especially)

[Gnome Alone]

Arcane Archers are crazy easy to abuse.

Because they have low self-esteem?

[Necroticplague]

Because they have low self-esteem?

Imbue arrow is a standard action, regardless of the casting time of the spell imbued.


On an added note, I've had a somewhat soft spot for lycanthropes. Unfortunately, their ECL makes it hard to do something with them, since they miss out on a lot of class levels. Even a 1 HD animal still looses out on at least 3 class levels, 4 if you want good control of when you change.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Psion/Scout using unarmed strikes.

Doesn't really come online until level 10 or so, but it's really fun once it does.

[Taveena]

Imbue arrow is a standard action, regardless of the casting time of the spell imbued.

Pathfinder fixes this, but opens up another problem. Namely, now you use the casting time of the spell.

Even if the casting time is 'one immediate action'.
Shooting people in the face when it's not your turn is /hilarious/.

[Gwendol]

Building a grappler can be interesting (and planning for what to do when encountering non-grappable enemies).

[Abd al-Azrad]

Been partial for a long time to the Enchanter. All-or-nothing, loads of enemies are immune to your tricks... but when they work, they work well.

Bard/Blackguard debuffer. I play it as a lovable pirate.

[FearlessGnome]

The Healer class, especially if the "Good only" requirement is dropped. They are full casters, they just have a retardedly useless spell list. But add in a few domain and the Sanctified or Corrupt spells (especially the latter) and they can oodles of fun. I never do seem to get very far into any pbp where I play one, though, and off the net I'm the only person willing to DM a 3.5 game in town. *Sigh*

[Norin]

I'm not sure this qualifies but a while back i wanted to make a Half-Orc Dread Necromancer based Gish and still get 8 (or 9's) without alot of sneaky tricks.

It was a mad mix of Half orc Paragon, DN, Human Paragon (Divided ancestry), spellsword, abjurant champion, eldritch knight. I think I watered out the casting progression way too much in an effort to squeeze in too many classes to really make it work. The build also relied on a lenient DM to allow Armor of Darkness somehow being added to DN spell list... Not sure how I planned that to work.

Makes me want to pick this build back up and see what I can do.

[Threadnaught]

Step 1: Get Tome of Battle allowed.
Step 2: Roll up a Swordsage.
Step 3: Take every Counter available and other stuff from Setting Sun.
Step 4: At 20th level, 16/25 Maneuvers Known would be Counters and only usable when attacked, of those 12/16 would be available at any one time.
Step 5: Do whatever you can to become the target of an attack, without resorting to using any other ToB ability.


This is how to play as Wobbuffet.


Maybe name the character "Sonans Dex."

[Psyren]

Nah, truenamer looks like it could be dangerous on paper (at level 20) but it really can't do anything a real caster can't do at least half a dozen levels before the truenamer.

Actually, they do have some Truenamer-only shenanigans pre-Gate, like reusable skull talismans and auto-dispelling epic magic.

[dysprosium]

Truenamer

Monk

Soulknife

All difficult to play well, all fairly weak even if you amp them up to 11, all hella fun to my twisted, mildly masochistic mind.

Mix all three for more fun!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, they do have some Truenamer-only shenanigans pre-Gate, like reusable skull talismans and auto-dispelling epic magic.

True enough, though those are hardly game breaking; the former being nice but not shattering and the latter being moot since epic casting wins the game in spite of it.


Mix all three for more fun!

..... I actually have mixed monk and soulknife.

[Extra Anchovies]

..... I actually have mixed monk and soulknife.

How and why? You can't exactly flurry with a mindblade.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How and why? You can't exactly flurry with a mindblade.

Hidden talent replaces wild talent then soulknife/monk meets the requirements for tashalatora. Throw in the web article options to sub psychic strike for bonus feats and pick up the feat to make the mind blade a flurry weapon. Kalashtar for the race.

As to why: why not? They're two of my favorite classes and I found it entertaining.

[Fax Celestis]

How and why? You can't exactly flurry with a mindblade.

Unorthodox Flurry, yo.

[TheCrowing1432]

Two Weapon Fighting/Masterthrower/Sneak Attack.

[gorfnab]

Two Weapon Fighting/Masterthrower/Sneak Attack.
It's doable but takes a little bit of work
Flick, the Flaming Knife Flinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11)

My dagger throwing build

Strongheart Halfling or Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF(DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade
7. Swashbuckler
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF (Dragon #310) - Vital Aim
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (Dragon #304)
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Items:
Rogue's Vest

Gloves of Endless Javelins - Change javelins to daggers
or
Quiver of Anariel - Change quiver to vest or bandoleer and change arrow(s) to dagger(s)


Originally from The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.