Spinemeld Warrior Advice

[torrasque666]

So I've been thumbing through my copy of Magic of Incarnum lately, and took a look at the Spinemeld Warrior class. I like the class concept, a noble fighter who relies on his own natural weapons for combat, and decided to make a test run of it as a Dex-based fighter. So far I have the following:

STR: 12
DEX: 18
CON: 16
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
34 PB(Its what our DM plays with)



Warblade

Maneuvers:Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind
Stance: Blood in the Water
Feat: Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Law Devotion
Flaws: Individualist, Chivalrous Courtesy


Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem)
Incarnate

Feat: Agile Athlete


Warblade

Maneuver: Rabid Wolf Strike


Warblade

Maneuver: Claw at the Moon


Warblade

Stance: Leaping Dragon Stance
Feat: Improved Natural Attack(Spines)


Spinemeld Warrior

Bonus: Two-Weapon Fighting


Spinemeld Warrior
Spinemeld Warrior

Feat: Cobalt Charge


Spinemeld Warrior


Putting most points into Jump and Concentration, with a bit of Diplomacy thrown in as well.
+2 Mithral Breastplate for armor(+7AC,+5 Dex Bonus)
Spines for weapons, combined with an Amulet of Might Fists +2
+2 Gloves of Dex

I'm trying to figure out where to go after finishing out Spinemeld Warrior, as well as good feats for him to take. No Campaign specifics other than Eberron stuff, non-setting is ok, no DragMag. Looking to improve while keeping the printed flavor as much as possible.

[Heliomance]

I've been wondering if you could do anything useful with it, Psychic Warrior, and Soul Manifester. Possibly with a Monk dip and Tashalatora thrown in.

[SinsI]

As Essence_of_War said, "Unfortunately, said PrC is widely regarded to be a trap as one essentially trades 10 levels for a magical set of spines and rend. Even worse, it bizarrely tries to mix the rules for TWF and natural weapons in a non-intuitive way."

That being said, Dervish might be a good class to finish this after you get Spine Rend.

[Venger]

I've been wondering if you could do anything useful with it, Psychic Warrior, and Soul Manifester. Possibly with a Monk dip and Tashalatora thrown in.

that would be great if spinemeld warrior actually let you qualify for soul manifester. it doesn't. you actually need to take shape soulmeld (or dip an actual meldshaping class) in order to meet the requisite 3 melds for SM.


As Essence_of_War said, "Unfortunately, said PrC is widely regarded to be a trap as one essentially trades 10 levels for a magical set of spines and rend. Even worse, it bizarrely tries to mix the rules for TWF and natural weapons in a non-intuitive way."

That being said, Dervish might be a good class to finish this after you get Spine Rend.


it's a huge trap. you know what's actually good at rending? girallon arms. play totemist.

[Val666]

What about a hit & run fighter dip? From drow of the underdark it gives a small bonus to initiave and dex to damage against flat footed foes. 2 levels of Totemist would fit quite good

[torrasque666]

that would be great if spinemeld warrior actually let you qualify for soul manifester. it doesn't. you actually need to take shape soulmeld (or dip an actual meldshaping class) in order to meet the requisite 3 melds for SM.

So you didn't see the build apparently, as I have dipped a level of Incarnate. Possibly considering the Soul Manifester route. Or I would, if I hadn't already burned so many levels so far that would prevent me from actually taking it effectively.





it's a huge trap. you know what's actually good at rending? girallon arms. play totemist.
I don't want a totemist. If I wanted a totemist, I'd play a damn totemist. I want to keep this flavor, and I'm not changing the flavor just to cram something into my build.


As Essence_of_War said, "Unfortunately, said PrC is widely regarded to be a trap as one essentially trades 10 levels for a magical set of spines and rend. Even worse, it bizarrely tries to mix the rules for TWF and natural weapons in a non-intuitive way."

That being said, Dervish might be a good class to finish this after you get Spine Rend.
Don't think Dervish would work. It requires slashing weapons, which I don't have. Spines are piercing. Thanks for idea, and actually reading the post.


What about a hit & run fighter dip? From drow of the underdark it gives a small bonus to initiave and dex to damage against flat footed foes. 2 levels of Totemist would fit quite good

Hit and run fighter is a possibility. Could take it afterwards. And while Totemist could work for my Meldshaper class, I just don't see it working in my build.

[Red Fel]

I'm going to start by putting this point in spoilers, because I feel I have to comment on the choice of Spinemeld Warrior, which isn't what you asked.

Okay. Spinemeld Warrior is apparently designed as a Soulborn PrC (note that its meldshaper progression explicitly calls out Soulborn soulmelds). This should be your first warning that it's bad, but just for sake of argument, let's compare it. Since SMW requires BAB +5, the earliest you could enter it is level 6, so we will be comparing Soulborn 6-15 with SMW 1-10.

At Soulborn 5, you have: +5 BAB, +4 Fort, +1 Ref and Will. 1 soulmeld, 0 essentia, 0 binds. Smite opposition 2/day, incarnum defense, and a bonus feat.Kind of pitiful. But that's Soulborn.

Soulborn 6-15 on top of Soulborn 5 gives you: +15 BAB, +9 Fort, +5 Ref and Will. 3 soulmelds, 5 essentia, 2 binds. Smite opposition 4/day, share incarnum defense 2/day, 3 bonus feats. Crown, feet, hands, arms, brow, and shoulder chakras.
By contrast, SMW 1-10 on top of Soulborn 5 gives you: +15 BAB, +11 Fort, +4 Ref and Will (assuming you're not using fractional saves). Comparable to Soulborn levels. 3 soulmelds, 7 essentia, 1 bind. A bit more essentia, but one less bind, so a possible trade-off. Smite opposition 2/day, incarnum defense, and a bonus feat from Soulborn 5; Twin spine fighting, TWF, noble familiarity, spine enhancement, spine rend, and adamantine spines from SMW. So more class features, but you miss out on bonus feats. Arms chakra. Well, you can only bind one soulmeld, and you only have one chakra to bind to, so... yeah.
Here's the point. Taking Soulborn to 15, as opposed to taking SMW, gives you more versatility. You have more chakras open, more binds to use, and multiple bonus feats. SMW does nothing but give you an arms bind and mildly enhance your spines. And let's face it, they still only deal 1d6 damage until you get Rend; even then, it's not terribly impressive, and using essentia to gain an enhancement bonus on your spines prevents you from using other means to gain an enhancement bonus (since enhancement bonuses don't stack). Frankly, you might even be better off going with a Monk, Swordsage, or similar unarmed combatant to get better-scaling unarmed strike damage. At least the Soulborn - and I can't believe I'm saying this - has more options available, and when the Soulborn is a more versatile option, you know you're in a trap class.
Okay. Rant out of the way. Now, onto your question.

First, your build. High Dex is excellent. I question your need for Cha, but whatever, your call. With regard to your flaws, I note one issue: You did not craft your spines. They are a natural weapon. As I recall, Individualist imposes a penalty on attack rolls with weapons you have not crafted, and an ACP on armor you have not crafted. Since you haven't crafted your spines yourself - nobody crafted them, they're natural - that may mean you suffer a penalty; similarly, unless you plan to be naked, that means ACP on your Mithral Breastplate. So keep that in mind.

Feats: I get that Law Devotion gets you good flavor, but your feats are precious, and that's a high price for a 1/day ability. Consider the Double Chakra feat - since you have limited binds, you might as well pick one and double its utility. Soulsight isn't a terrible option either, if you've got the feats free - Blindsense is very useful.

Gear: Your AoMF provides an enhancement bonus to your spines, right? Well, there's a problem - that's the same kind of bonus your Spinemeld Warrior abilities provide. I would instead suggest that you use the Necklace of Natural Weapons, put a +1 bonus on there, and then instead add special properties (e.g. flaming, throwing, whatever). This will give you more versatility, and you can use your SMW abilities to augment your enhancement bonus instead.

With regard to possible PrCs, Bloodclaw Master (Tome of Battle) is not the ideal choice, but it is an option here; assuming you could get your spines to count as Tiger Claw weapons, it becomes a surprisingly decent option. Since you chose to boost your Cha, Incandescent Champion (Magic of Incarnum) is also an option: Unbearable Countenance has the potential to be quite effective, and Incarnum Overload is extremely useful, even as a 1/day boost.

[torrasque666]

I'm going to start by putting this point in spoilers, because I feel I have to comment on the choice of Spinemeld Warrior, which isn't what you asked.

First, your build. High Dex is excellent. I question your need for Cha, but whatever, your call. With regard to your flaws, I note one issue: You did not craft your spines. They are a natural weapon. As I recall, Individualist imposes a penalty on attack rolls with weapons you have not crafted, and an ACP on armor you have not crafted. Since you haven't crafted your spines yourself - nobody crafted them, they're natural - that may mean you suffer a penalty; similarly, unless you plan to be naked, that means ACP on your Mithral Breastplate. So keep that in mind.

Feats: I get that Law Devotion gets you good flavor, but your feats are precious, and that's a high price for a 1/day ability. Consider the Double Chakra feat - since you have limited binds, you might as well pick one and double its utility. Soulsight isn't a terrible option either, if you've got the feats free - Blindsense is very useful.

Gear: Your AoMF provides an enhancement bonus to your spines, right? Well, there's a problem - that's the same kind of bonus your Spinemeld Warrior abilities provide. I would instead suggest that you use the Necklace of Natural Weapons, put a +1 bonus on there, and then instead add special properties (e.g. flaming, throwing, whatever). This will give you more versatility, and you can use your SMW abilities to augment your enhancement bonus instead.

With regard to possible PrCs, Bloodclaw Master (Tome of Battle) is not the ideal choice, but it is an option here; assuming you could get your spines to count as Tiger Claw weapons, it becomes a surprisingly decent option. Since you chose to boost your Cha, Incandescent Champion (Magic of Incarnum) is also an option: Unbearable Countenance has the potential to be quite effective, and Incarnum Overload is extremely useful, even as a 1/day boost.

True, Individualist does impose the penalty on weapons that aren't crafted, but I'm sure I can persuade my DM that it only applies to manufactured weapons. And the ACP would only increase by 1, as my understanding of it is.
You suffer a -2 penalty on all attack rolls made using weapons that you have not personally crafted. In addition, the armor check penalty of any suit of armor you wear that you did not craft increases by +1.

The decision for Cha was mostly for flavor reasons.

Was considering NNW, just didn't have the book in front of me.

Law Devotion is only a place holder. I'll probably move Incarnum Charge there, given that Double Chakra requires a MsL of 9.

I'd definitely have to try for Bloodclaw Master, as again, I can probably convince my DM that they count. Can't actually try for Incandescent Champion as it requires Good, Spinemeld Warrior requires Lawful, and Incarnate can only be one of those.

Thanks for the advice.

[Red Fel]

There are two problems with using Incarnate for this build.

First off, SMW specifically uses the Soulborn list. It doesn't advance anybody's existing meldshaper level; rather, it has its own, which draws from Soulborn. So it does nothing for Incarnate, and vice-versa. Note further that the various bonuses one class or the other gives to its soulmelds are class-specific; for example, chakra binds made available by Incarnate are usable only for Incarnate soulmelds, and so forth. The lack of synergy hurts. Technically, the same is true for Soulborn; I misspoke when I called SMW a Soulborn PrC, because it honestly seems more designed as a "You're a Skarn who wants to use incarnum but you didn't take any meldshaper classes" class than a meldshaper PrC. But that's an entirely different ball of wax.

Second, Incarnate uses the caster-BAB progression, or 1/2 BAB. For a two-weapon fighter, BAB is extremely precious; you're relying on quantity over quality, so you really want to hit more. Incarnate may give you soulmeld versatility, but it hurts your BAB a lot.

Soul Manifester raises similar issues. Yes, it advances meldshaping and manifesting, but it does so with a reduced BAB. Its powers are designed more along the lines of augmenting manifesting than augmenting combat prowess, and while it does have some nice effects when layered on two combat-oriented classes (e.g. Totemist and PsiWar) it becomes very caster-y when placed on Incarnate and something else. Incarnate/Psion/SoulMan is awesome, Totemist/PsiWar/SoulMan is sweet, but Incarnate/PsiWar/SoulMan requires an investment you just can't make at this point.

My advice? Focus on the combat aspect. Your meldshaping should simply augment that; don't think of it as a focus, because frankly, it isn't one for an SMW. Concentrate on two things: First, your spines and making them awesome. Second, a combat trick. You could try to turn yourself into a trip-master or an AoO-junky, or you could go back into Warblade and pick up some more gimmicks.

Or, here's an option - take Martial Study (something Shadow Hand), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), and Indigo Strike. One of the guiding principles of TWF - which you're using as an SMW - is to have supplemental damage. Your individual attacks are weaker, but you have more of them; anything that adds damage to each strike is a good thing. Sneak Attack and other sources of precision damage are great; if the feat investment is too much, consider Punishing Stance (which is Iron Heart, and thus native to Warblade).

As an aside, I'm surprised nobody linked it yet, but here is the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

[torrasque666]

The incarnate dip was mostly only for the essentia point, though I'm aware that can be replaced with something like fighter and use its bonus feat for something, probably TWF so I can get ITWF for free with the appropriate Dex score at SMW 1. I can also get in a level sooner, giving me Spine Rend to play with.

[Red Fel]

The incarnate dip was mostly only for the essentia point, though I'm aware that can be replaced with something like fighter and use its bonus feat for something, probably TWF so I can get ITWF for free with the appropriate Dex score at SMW 1. I can also get in a level sooner, giving me Spine Rend to play with.

A lot of essentia feats contain the language "You gain one point of essentia." In fact, Cobalt Charge (which you take at level 9) has that language.

Take that feat earlier, and your prereqs are met, no levels of Incarnate required.