RoboEmperor
2014-11-09, 07:44 AM
I've been playing icewind dale 2 and I'm loving their shadow conjurations XD.
I know how shades work, but it seems there is some controversy on planar binding.
1. Some people say it creates a quasi-real outsider
2. Since planar binding effectively just grabs an outsider and throws him into a magic circle, wouldn't a shades planar binding do the same? So you would first roll to see if you beat the outsider's spell resistance, then the outsider would roll to see if it recognizes shades as an illusion, then you roll to see if planar binding worked, and then if the outsider successfully disbelieved, and the planar binding went through, he would roll for the fourth time for the shades' 80% chance to work against disbelievers.
Here's the confusing thing though: Summon monster spells pull a REAL creature into your area, and is magically protected from death and you magically control him perfectly. Shades spell explicitly declares that instead of bringing in a REAL creature like summon monster, you CREATE a copy of a creature from SHADOW materials. In other words, it uses the target creature merely as a blueprint for the shadow creature.
By this logic planar binding also instead of MAGICALLY grabbing a REAL creature, it would create a copy of a creature from SHADOW materials. It would use the targeted outsider merely as a blueprint for the shadow creature. This interpretation however fails to explain what happens after you created the shadow creature. On one side, planar binding requires bargaining but on the other side this is a creature CREATED by YOU so it shouldn't be any different than a simulacrum except that it's made by shadow materials instead of snow. Note that simulacrum is also a SHADOW spell. The shadow creature is basically an illusion, and you have absolute control over all of your illusions. If not, then that would mean the shadow creature has its own will, and can disbelieve its own body, etc. which doesn't make sense
Some additional problems with Shades Planar Binding is duration, as that spell's duration is instantaneous. Planar binding returns the creature upon completion of a task, so perhaps same limitation applies? If you don't assign it a specific task it lasts for 1day/level, otherwise it stays until it finishes building something or w.e
But, on the other side of the argument, spells like Plane Shift affect real creatures, so by that logic shades is capable of dimensional travel and is therefore capable of pulling outsiders into your magic circle, but then again every teleportation spell only affects you and people on the SAME PLANE, so maybe shades can't affect anyone except those on your plane or the shadow plane. But then again, this is shades which is more powerful than shadow conjuration...
Also, planar binding is a CALLING spell, not a summoning spell, which maybe a good enough justification that it pulls a REAL creature into your circle instead of creating one.
So... which is it in your opinion? Shades planar binding creates a quasi-real copy of a creature from another plane which acts like your simulacrum, or shades planar binding pulling a REAL creature despite shades shadow creature stuff?
p.s. I noticed a lot of people arguing against the quasi-real planar bound creature because it's "broken", but lets be reasonable. Level 9 sorcerers/wizards are broken already, and there are a lot of spells superior to shades even if it can create any outsider of 18HD or lower with 1 standard action (shapechange or gate anyone?). In fact it's no less "broken" than a normal greater planar binding and even if it is, it's justified because it's 1 level higher so no "you can't do that with shades because it's too OP" opinions or arguments please :). Every spell can be managed with "Don't be a j*ck*ss" rule so shapechangers can happily become elementals or demons or dragons without the DM bludgeoning them with his books. I just wanna know what Shades does RAW or near-RAW so my DM and I can start homebrewing restrictions from there. He and I both hate homebrewing spells into something completely different, so we need to know what this spell is!
I know how shades work, but it seems there is some controversy on planar binding.
1. Some people say it creates a quasi-real outsider
2. Since planar binding effectively just grabs an outsider and throws him into a magic circle, wouldn't a shades planar binding do the same? So you would first roll to see if you beat the outsider's spell resistance, then the outsider would roll to see if it recognizes shades as an illusion, then you roll to see if planar binding worked, and then if the outsider successfully disbelieved, and the planar binding went through, he would roll for the fourth time for the shades' 80% chance to work against disbelievers.
Here's the confusing thing though: Summon monster spells pull a REAL creature into your area, and is magically protected from death and you magically control him perfectly. Shades spell explicitly declares that instead of bringing in a REAL creature like summon monster, you CREATE a copy of a creature from SHADOW materials. In other words, it uses the target creature merely as a blueprint for the shadow creature.
By this logic planar binding also instead of MAGICALLY grabbing a REAL creature, it would create a copy of a creature from SHADOW materials. It would use the targeted outsider merely as a blueprint for the shadow creature. This interpretation however fails to explain what happens after you created the shadow creature. On one side, planar binding requires bargaining but on the other side this is a creature CREATED by YOU so it shouldn't be any different than a simulacrum except that it's made by shadow materials instead of snow. Note that simulacrum is also a SHADOW spell. The shadow creature is basically an illusion, and you have absolute control over all of your illusions. If not, then that would mean the shadow creature has its own will, and can disbelieve its own body, etc. which doesn't make sense
Some additional problems with Shades Planar Binding is duration, as that spell's duration is instantaneous. Planar binding returns the creature upon completion of a task, so perhaps same limitation applies? If you don't assign it a specific task it lasts for 1day/level, otherwise it stays until it finishes building something or w.e
But, on the other side of the argument, spells like Plane Shift affect real creatures, so by that logic shades is capable of dimensional travel and is therefore capable of pulling outsiders into your magic circle, but then again every teleportation spell only affects you and people on the SAME PLANE, so maybe shades can't affect anyone except those on your plane or the shadow plane. But then again, this is shades which is more powerful than shadow conjuration...
Also, planar binding is a CALLING spell, not a summoning spell, which maybe a good enough justification that it pulls a REAL creature into your circle instead of creating one.
So... which is it in your opinion? Shades planar binding creates a quasi-real copy of a creature from another plane which acts like your simulacrum, or shades planar binding pulling a REAL creature despite shades shadow creature stuff?
p.s. I noticed a lot of people arguing against the quasi-real planar bound creature because it's "broken", but lets be reasonable. Level 9 sorcerers/wizards are broken already, and there are a lot of spells superior to shades even if it can create any outsider of 18HD or lower with 1 standard action (shapechange or gate anyone?). In fact it's no less "broken" than a normal greater planar binding and even if it is, it's justified because it's 1 level higher so no "you can't do that with shades because it's too OP" opinions or arguments please :). Every spell can be managed with "Don't be a j*ck*ss" rule so shapechangers can happily become elementals or demons or dragons without the DM bludgeoning them with his books. I just wanna know what Shades does RAW or near-RAW so my DM and I can start homebrewing restrictions from there. He and I both hate homebrewing spells into something completely different, so we need to know what this spell is!