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ken-do-nim
2007-03-22, 10:18 AM
My pc is ECL 16 but level 15. He has a racial +1 LA. His charisma is only 11. He is a psion and has a psi-crystal. He wants to take an 11th level cohort. I'm thinking no, because...
leadership score = level. I assume that's real level, not ECL.
psicrystal is like a familiar, that's -2.
So his leadership score is 13, good for only a 9th level cohort. I could give him a +1 bonus for a "saved his life" backstory, that would still only be good enough for level 10.

Are my calculations correct?

Piccamo
2007-03-22, 10:31 AM
Your calculations look correct to me. You could try an alternative to Leadership though with Wild Cohort. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

ken-do-nim
2007-03-22, 10:39 AM
Thanks for confirming.

Douglas
2007-03-22, 10:44 AM
At ECL 16 you probably qualify for Great Renown (+2) unless the world is absolutely chock full of high level characters. Depending on the character, you might also have a reputation for Special Power (+1) and/or Fairness and Generosity (+1). Great renown plus either of the other bonuses or your ad hoc "saved his life" bonus would put you at 16, enough for the 11th level cohort you want.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-22, 11:52 AM
At ECL 16 you probably qualify for Great Renown (+2) unless the world is absolutely chock full of high level characters. Depending on the character, you might also have a reputation for Special Power (+1) and/or Fairness and Generosity (+1). Great renown plus either of the other bonuses or your ad hoc "saved his life" bonus would put you at 16, enough for the 11th level cohort you want.

Turns out they are also different alignments (CG vs. CN).

I'm not sure what special power is.

Fairness and generosity means he has to give the cohort some gifts.

The world is pretty high fantasy, and the downside of destroying a secret cult (Return To Temple of Elemental Evil) is that no one knew they were a threat anyway.

KoDT69
2007-03-22, 12:52 PM
I have a comment related to cohorts, though a bit off topic. I normally DM, but the last time I was a player, I had a 16th level rogue who had stolen leadership of a kingdom and had great renown. I took Leadership to gain some help though because I was far below the campaign's power curve (I started in pretty late into the campaign). I named my cohort "Chump Change" because I thought it was a good lackey name, being my character grew up on the streets it worked for me. Everyone else thought it was horrible name, including the freak of a Dread Pirate named Geoffrey Chaucer (durr like the illiterature guy huh huh). Is "Chump Change" a bad cohort name? :smallbiggrin:

Piccamo
2007-03-22, 12:54 PM
Yeah it really is. Maybe not so bad for a nickname, but cohorts are supposed to be real people, too and that just doesn't seem to fit.

Tweekinator
2007-03-22, 01:18 PM
Maybe his parents were sadistic child-hating drunks who named him Chump Change out of spite and kicked him out onto the streets.

Douglas
2007-03-22, 03:48 PM
Turns out they are also different alignments (CG vs. CN).
Ok, there's another +1 the character will need to qualify for this cohort.


I'm not sure what special power is.

Fairness and generosity means he has to give the cohort some gifts.
The Leadership reputation modifiers aren't exactly well defined, but I'd describe them as follows:

Great Renown: You are famous. It doesn't matter what you're famous for, there just has to be a reasonable chance of any given random person from a fairly large area recognizing your name or title for whatever reason.

Special Power: You are well known for being powerful. This reputation doesn't necessarily have to be widespread, but those who have heard of you generally agree you're a pretty powerful guy.

Special Power and Great Renown often go hand in hand, but neither is strictly necessary for the other. A Shakespeare equivalent might have Great Renown and be known worldwide for his literary works but be no better in a fight than a common low level rank-and-file guard. On the other hand, an elite assassin member of a secret guild might be regarded as the best killer in the guild (Special Power) but almost completely unknown outside the guild.

Fairness and Generosity: This is reputation we're talking about here, not the character's behavior specifically towards the cohort and/or followers. Generosity towards the cohort and followers would certainly help the reputation but is not required. Regular donations to orphanages, handouts to beggars, or a track record as a scrupulously honest magistrate who is careful not to assign punishments out of proportion to the actual crime would all qualify. Monetary generosity does not need to be on a scale large enough to make a really significant dent in a high level adventurer's budget; as long as it's enough to make a difference to the recipients and is spread out over a considerable number of people, it's enough for the bonus. Even a single gold piece can be a big windfall for a typical D&D commoner.


The world is pretty high fantasy, and the downside of destroying a secret cult (Return To Temple of Elemental Evil) is that no one knew they were a threat anyway.
Sounds like a case where he might have a reputation for Special Power among those who know him, but not Great Renown.

From your posts, it sounds like you're the DM in this case. Let's see, 15 - 2 (psicrystal) - 1 (alignment) + 1 (special power) + 1 (saved his life) = 14. If the PC goes/has gone on an altruistic donation spree (preferably more than one), that might bump it up to 15, still one short. Since it's so close, I'd suggest considering what would fit best with the story so far. Rules mechanics aside, if it would be in character for this NPC to hook up with the PC as a cohort, let it happen. Yes, he'd have a cohort one level above what he should for a while, but that's not a huge difference and it will correct itself fairly soon when the PC gains another level or two.

Jason Va hater
2007-03-22, 07:51 PM
Take him as an NPC to a few brothels and eventually you will hit a Succubus or 2.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-22, 08:39 PM
Why does the Follower have to be level 11 right now? If he is accompanying the PC he could advance a level. As a borderline case the DM could level up the cohort after the next adventure.

Don't forget as a General Rule of Thumb as per the Legend Lore Spell in the PHB Level 11 or Greater PCs are Legendary.

IMO that should count as Great Reknown (Leadership +2) as per standard DMG demographics 90% of people live in Thorps, Hamlets and Villages and are commoners. Not lots of high level characters running around.

As a Psion you have a Special Power (Psionic Ability so Leadership +1) Lots of people can Kill with a weapon. Your PC Can Do Amazing Things with his Mind and Will.

If your PC is CN he is probably not known for Fairness and Generosity. If the PC is CG he is probably known for being Generous with Fairness based on his actions.

If your PC is CG why would he want a CN Cohort? It just seems designed to cause the PC problems.

Since you are designing the Cohort why not make him the same alignment along with Saved Life which will lose that negative modifier and gain a bonus?

DMG page 107 what about a +2 for having a Base of Operations?

Is this a Tag along Cohort or Support Cohort?

ken-do-nim
2007-03-23, 09:27 AM
Why does the Follower have to be level 11 right now? If he is accompanying the PC he could advance a level. As a borderline case the DM could level up the cohort after the next adventure.

Don't forget as a General Rule of Thumb as per the Legend Lore Spell in the PHB Level 11 or Greater PCs are Legendary.

IMO that should count as Great Reknown (Leadership +2) as per standard DMG demographics 90% of people live in Thorps, Hamlets and Villages and are commoners. Not lots of high level characters running around.

As a Psion you have a Special Power (Psionic Ability so Leadership +1) Lots of people can Kill with a weapon. Your PC Can Do Amazing Things with his Mind and Will.

If your PC is CN he is probably not known for Fairness and Generosity. If the PC is CG he is probably known for being Generous with Fairness based on his actions.

If your PC is CG why would he want a CN Cohort? It just seems designed to cause the PC problems.

Since you are designing the Cohort why not make him the same alignment along with Saved Life which will lose that negative modifier and gain a bonus?

DMG page 107 what about a +2 for having a Base of Operations?

Is this a Tag along Cohort or Support Cohort?

No I didn't design this cohort. The player played under a previous DM and handed me his character sheet & his cohort's character sheet. I'm in the uncomfortable position of saying, "No, this isn't right." on various things. Like for instance I don't think the previous DM or my player realized that you can't use more power points on any given activation than your manifester level. This character is a level 6 psion (heavily multiclassed character) which means manifester level 6, and he has written down on his character sheet (1 pp + 6 for swift) but I think he needs one more level in psion to do that.

Anyway we decided that the cohort would be an npc for now, and after this adventure his character will gain great reknown. (He'll be ridding a major city of slake-moths!)

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-23, 11:48 AM
No I didn't design this cohort. The player played under a previous DM and handed me his character sheet & his cohort's character sheet. I'm in the uncomfortable position of saying, "No, this isn't right." on various things. Like for instance I don't think the previous DM or my player realized that you can't use more power points on any given activation than your manifester level. This character is a level 6 psion (heavily multiclassed character) which means manifester level 6, and he has written down on his character sheet (1 pp + 6 for swift) but I think he needs one more level in psion to do that.

Anyway we decided that the cohort would be an npc for now, and after this adventure his character will gain great reknown. (He'll be ridding a major city of slake-moths!)

Sounds like everything is under control. :)

Slightly off topic I had a great DM who used standard DMG demographics to make hiring cohorts part of the game. It had to be roleplayed. The idea was cohorts were basically down on their luck adventurer heroes who were throwing in the towel for a nice less life threatening position along with a regular steady salary.

Plus he got to Role Play the Cohorts. My duties are to guard the castle and oversee the domain how can I guard the castle if I accompany you on an adventure? Isn't that dangerous? Explain to me exactly what you want me to do again. I don't believe that comes under my formal duties. What kind of bonus would I get for doing that? Why would I want to do that? Is this your way of saying I'm fired?

Cohorts didn't grow on trees. You couldn't say I want a level 11 wizard with the Brew Potion, Craft Wonderous Items and Craft Magical Arms and Armor the maximum level cohort according to my level and the leadership feat.

You had to travel to where cohorts were located or based and find them. In this case a Large City where there would normally be 3 level 10+ wizards or a Metropolis where there would be 4 level 13+ wizards (One or two resident wizards might be interested who would want things like "Commuting, Flexible Hours, Room and Board (Require their Own Personal Wizard's Tower), a Substantial Personal Stipend, a More Substantials Research Stipend (Pretty much mirroring or exceding Complete Arcane guidelines).

You would advertise a position for a law abiding court mage who could teleport (Usually Baronial so as not to upset the surrounding Nobility to much) or castellan or steward and for some reason the more specific you made the requirements the fewer "qualified" applicants showed up among the all the riff raff (Fighters/Knights, Glib Bards and Rogues, Middling Wizards) usually with a promising gem level 7 - 9 level wizard in the pile you could advance over time (young or middleaged, good ability scores, reasonable, few magic items or lots of spells in his book or who was studying how to do one of the requirements)

If you tracked down the local high level resident wizards you'd heard about you'd get things like "I heard you were hiring "Baron....." but like most wizards I specialize in crafting to fund my research and I make a very good living casting the occasional spell professionally. I don't brew potions or I only craft wonderous items. There aren't many Master Blacksmith/Carpenter/Cobbler/Jewelers in the world and the same goes more so for wizard magical crafters.

Why would anyone with those qualifications do anything except accept commissions or work for the King or one of the Dukes?

You might try so and so over in the next large city but I don't think he knows the teleport spell or May I be frank Baron? Your Barony isn't registered with the Heralds.



Just curious does the character have something like Hidden Talent?

I could see how it could be campaign dependent but taking something like Hidden Talent at level 1 would justify psionic levels with bonus power points for all HD/class levels or HD/class levels divided by 2.

I base that on a few things like Githyanki and Githzerai psioinc abilities from the Expanded Psionics Handbook improving with level advancement.

Dragon Magazine introduced those +1 ECL Darksun Psi based core races. Humans got the choice of assigning Two +2 ability modifiers and bonus psionic powers at various levels at 1st level a level 1 power, at 5th level a 2nd level power, at 10th leve a level 3 power, at 15th level a level 4 power and at level 20 a level 5 power.

The +2 Phrenic template would confer a similar ability IMO.

bosssmiley
2007-03-23, 01:16 PM
Is "Chump Change" a bad cohort name? :smallbiggrin:

No worse than 'Bigby'. :smallwink:

(dunno if you ever read that particular 'waffling reminiscences about the old days of D&D' article by Gygax)

magnar
2007-03-23, 11:47 PM
I would say that while by useing the rules strait as written, the crystal is a familiar, think of it as a non-psi character would. Its not competition for the PC's favor, it's not a being who he trusts so strongly to entrust a piece of his soul to, it's a fricking rock. It won't even cast spells for him. Its has no obvious use and even if explained, it seems no more a familiar than a ring of spell storing. I mean, magic items don't impose a penalty, do they? A binder's trade doesn't, nor does that spell which lets a sorcerer store his life force in a sapphire. Just a rock that lets you cast more spells.

kamikasei
2007-03-24, 07:13 AM
It's a rock that talks. It can speak one language and it's not limited to speaking only to its master. By the level we're talking about, it can also fly. It's clearly more than just an item. It's a construct, after all, not an intelligent item.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-03-24, 08:06 AM
It may be more than an item, but it's much less than a familiar. As magnar says, it's a freaking rock. A pet rock.

kamikasei
2007-03-24, 08:34 AM
It may be more than an item, but it's much less than a familiar. As magnar says, it's a freaking rock. A pet rock.

It's a flying, talking pet rock, which offers advice to its master that will often be acted on; it's much closer to a familiar than to a ring of spell storing, to use magnar's example. It might be fair to have it give less of a penalty to Leadership than does a familiar, since it's less distinct from its master and easier to replace, but it should still give some penalty.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-24, 09:32 AM
It's a flying, talking pet rock, which offers advice to its master that will often be acted on; it's much closer to a familiar than to a ring of spell storing, to use magnar's example. It might be fair to have it give less of a penalty to Leadership than does a familiar, since it's less distinct from its master and easier to replace, but it should still give some penalty.

Nah. The only way to keep psionics in line is not to cut it slack. Maybe, must maybe, an 11 charisma 15th level character just isn't destined to have an 11th level cohort.

Also, I'm already cutting this pc some slack by allowing his 'saved your life' backstory. Heck, a player could come up with a backstory about not only saving a guy's life, but his entire family's. Now wouldn't that be worth more than a +1? Of course it would, but no ... just no. Us DMs have to draw the line or the players will walk all over us.