Is the Champion archetype a trap?

[Kaeso]

I'd like to have a discussion about the Fighter archetypes, and more specifically why the Champion archetype may just be entirely useless. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about pure strength or versatility, but simply how much each archetype has to offer.

The Eldritch Knight archetype is obviously the strongest. It gives you access to a limited array of spells that are still quite useful, as well as some situationally useful other goodies.
The Battle Master has a few useful manouvers that allow you to do much more than just stand in front of an enemy and smack him. Tripping, pushing, provoking and allowing someone else to attack on your turn are but a few things a Battle Master can do.
The Champion on the other hand... what does he really offer? It just gives you improved critical and... nothing else. So now instead of getting a critical on a natural 20, you get a critical on rolls in the 18-20 range. Was that really worth an entire archetype, when you end up doing the exact same thing a theoretical archetype-less fighter would be doing?

My problem with the Champion isn't that he is weak or underpowered, if that were my problem I would also have complaints about the Battle Master in comparison to the Eldritch Knight. My problem is that taking the Champion archetype is only barely better than not taking an archetype at all.

[Giant2005]

The regeneration is pretty awesome. If I actually thought there was much chance of me getting a high enough level to get that regen in any reasonable amount of time, I'd choose it over the Battlemaster every time. Although there isn't much chance of that so the Battlemaster wins, even with flaws of his own.
At high levels, comparing the Battlemaster to the Champion is like comparing Captain America to Wolverine and although it probably has more to do with his personality than his power, I am more of a fan of Wolverine.

[rlc]

that's actually the point. it's the fighter for people who just want to hit things. i'm not saying that necessarily makes it very good, but that's what it is.

[Kaeso]

The regeneration is pretty awesome. If I actually thought there was much chance of me getting a high enough level to get that regen in any reasonable amount of time, I'd choose it over the Battlemaster every time. Although there isn't much chance of that so the Battlemaster wins, even with flaws of his own.
At high levels, comparing the Battlemaster to the Champion is like comparing Captain America to Wolverine and although it probably has more to do with his personality than his power, I am more of a fan of Wolverine.

Yeah, good point. I completely overlooked the regeneration, probably because it comes in so late. I imagine I'd have less of a beef with the Champion if his regeneration came in earlier. Perhaps it could scale (starting out as 1+CON at level 5 and peaking at 5+CON at level 18?). However, IMHO it's too little too late as it stands right now.


that's actually the point. it's the fighter for people who just want to hit things. i'm not saying that necessarily makes it very good, but that's what it is.

I understand the idea, it's just that there's nothing about the crunch that makes it in any way a viable playstyle. Simply getting better crit modifiers and very late regeneration does not make it worthwhile.

[HorridElemental]

Here are a few homebrew ideas that really make the champion shine just a little.

When you get to improve your crit range, increase it by 2 more. 19-20 = 17-20 then 16-20... Now this becomes a class feature worth getting.

All jumps are increased by the sum of your best two physical ability scores. Keep the rest of the ability.

Additional fighting style let's you choose two fighting styles that you can switch out with a long rest (you sleep for 6 hours and practice for 1 with 1 hour to spare).

Keep the regen, sadly it comes online a bit too late.

[Tengu_temp]

Some oldschool players have this condescending attitude towards the fighter class, that it's supposed to be dirt simple, because it's for people who are either not experienced or not smart enough to play a spellcaster. The purpose of the Champion is to pander to that attitude.

[Kaeso]

Some oldschool players have this condescending attitude towards the fighter class, that it's supposed to be dirt simple, because it's for people who are either not experienced or not smart enough to play a spellcaster. The purpose of the Champion is to pander to that attitude.

I understand that attitude since, for better or for worse, in past editions the fighter has always been simple. I understand the need for the Champion to pander to that. What I don't understand is the champion not being good in any way. He's given some passive goodies, but those passive goodies are downright worthless. Simply giving him his regeneration capstone a few levels earlier (or even from the very start) would make him much better. Just tone it down and scale it. It would make the Champion simple, but still worth playing. He'd still be good purely because he's nigh indestructible.

Now he's just an archetypeless fighter with a wider crit range, which will almost never make a real difference.

[Ziegander]

Let's talk about criticals in 5e and extending critical threat range.

A Fighter with Str 16 and a Greatsword deals 2d6+3, or 4d6+3 on a critical. That's average damage of 10 on a non-crit hit, and average damage of 17 on a crit. That seems like an okay swing, except when you consider that you're only dealing 7 extra damage on 5% of your attacks. So the aggregate average extra damage here that the normal crit rules afford you is .35. That's with the highest base martial weapon dice in the book. That seems really low, huh?

Now then, a Champion Fighter can crit on a 19-20. He's DOUBLED his critical threat range. A normal Fighter crits 5% of the time, while a Champion crits 10% of the time. Nice. But all this actually means is that his aggregate average extra damage is doubled too, from .35 to .7. Ew... By the time we get to 15th level, the Champion finally triples his threat range, and increases his overall average damage by slightly more than 1 point, his aggregate average extra damage from criticals having gone up to 1.05.

Since the math shows that, given the way 5e criticals work, and without some magic weapon that has extra effects on a critical, these critical threat range boosting features are almost completely worthless. The Champion should definitely be getting something else on his 3rd and 15th levels. Hell, Battlemasters get two maneuvers and four superiority dice and also proficiency with some artisan's tools. Eldritch Knight's get two cantrips, three spells known, and two spells per day and also Weapon Bond. Honestly, even though the expanded threat range does increase the Fighter's combat abilities, they are so weak that they are on the level of Weapon Bond and a bonus artisan's tool proficiency.

[Shadow]

What I don't understand is the champion not being good in any way. He's given some passive goodies, but those passive goodies are downright worthless.

The Champion fighter has the highest sustainable consistent damage in the entire game, and it's because of those passive goodies that you consider downright worthless.
He isn't flashy, but he certainly IS effective.

[Ziegander]

The Champion fighter has the highest sustainable consistent damage in the entire game, and it's because of those passive goodies that you consider downright worthless.
He isn't flashy, but he certainly IS effective.

His sustained damage is consistently 1.05 points higher than the next guy? Except he can't haste or enlarge himself, and he has no way to add bonus dice to his damage? Are you sure you did the math right?

[Shadow]

His sustained damage is consistently 1.05 points higher than the next guy? Except he can't haste or enlarge himself, and he has no way to add bonus dice to his damage? Are you sure you did the math right?

Higher is higher. I don't see what the problem is.
And you're comparing him to an EK, when the EK can cast spells and is decidedly more complicated. As has already been explained, Champion is designed to be simple, easy, not flasy, and effective.
It succeeds at all of this.
My previous statement stands. He has the highest sustained damage in the game. Just because it isn't 50 points higher doesn't make that any less true.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'd like to have a discussion about the Fighter archetypes, and more specifically why the Champion archetype may just be entirely useless. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about pure strength or versatility, but simply how much each archetype has to offer.

The Eldritch Knight archetype is obviously the strongest. It gives you access to a limited array of spells that are still quite useful, as well as some situationally useful other goodies.
The Battle Master has a few useful manouvers that allow you to do much more than just stand in front of an enemy and smack him. Tripping, pushing, provoking and allowing someone else to attack on your turn are but a few things a Battle Master can do.
The Champion on the other hand... what does he really offer? It just gives you improved critical and... nothing else. So now instead of getting a critical on a natural 20, you get a critical on rolls in the 18-20 range. Was that really worth an entire archetype, when you end up doing the exact same thing a theoretical archetype-less fighter would be doing?

My problem with the Champion isn't that he is weak or underpowered, if that were my problem I would also have complaints about the Battle Master in comparison to the Eldritch Knight. My problem is that taking the Champion archetype is only barely better than not taking an archetype at all.

Don't the Eldritch Knights class features lack synergy with the multiple attacks of the fighter, only allowing one additional attack (not 4). I wouldn't assume that makes them better at all.

I'd also say you're underselling the ability to add half proficiency to all the physical checks (in particular the constitution checks, as there are no proficiencies for these at all).

Also, unlike 3.5, no attack crits except off a 20. Quadrupling the number of critical hits seems powerful. There are ways to get spells and a way to get maneuvers. There isn't a way to expand crit range.

[Giant2005]

Let's talk about criticals in 5e and extending critical threat range.

A Fighter with Str 16 and a Greatsword deals 2d6+3, or 4d6+3 on a critical. That's average damage of 10 on a non-crit hit, and average damage of 17 on a crit. That seems like an okay swing, except when you consider that you're only dealing 7 extra damage on 5% of your attacks. So the aggregate average extra damage here that the normal crit rules afford you is .35. That's with the highest base martial weapon dice in the book. That seems really low, huh?

Now then, a Champion Fighter can crit on a 19-20. He's DOUBLED his critical threat range. A normal Fighter crits 5% of the time, while a Champion crits 10% of the time. Nice. But all this actually means is that his aggregate average extra damage is doubled too, from .35 to .7. Ew... By the time we get to 15th level, the Champion finally triples his threat range, and increases his overall average damage by slightly more than 1 point, his aggregate average extra damage from criticals having gone up to 1.05.

Since the math shows that, given the way 5e criticals work, and without some magic weapon that has extra effects on a critical, these critical threat range boosting features are almost completely worthless. The Champion should definitely be getting something else on his 3rd and 15th levels. Hell, Battlemasters get two maneuvers and four superiority dice and also proficiency with some artisan's tools. Eldritch Knight's get two cantrips, three spells known, and two spells per day and also Weapon Bond. Honestly, even though the expanded threat range does increase the Fighter's combat abilities, they are so weak that they are on the level of Weapon Bond and a bonus artisan's tool proficiency.
The above is almost entirely incorrect - you don't crit 5% of the time, you automatically hit 5% of the time and that has nothing at all to do with the Champion's improved critical range.
The percentage (and every calculation you tried to base on that percentage) relies entirely on your attack modifier and the enemy's armor class. If you need a 13 or higher to hit something, the default critical accounts for 12.5% of your hits and for a high leveled Champion 37.5% of his successful attacks will be crits. That is an extremely significant improvement and that improvement only grows as things get harder to hit.

[HorridElemental]

Give the champion fighter a way to ignore the non-magical weapon resistance and immunity that monsters get!

This allows them to stay useful versus monsters without the help of magic items or casters.

Hmm that shouldn't be an archetype feature, just a Fighter class feature.

[Shadow]

Or better yet, just remove resistances altogether!
Oh, wait....

[HorridElemental]

Or better yet, just remove resistances altogether!
Oh, wait....

Rolls eyes*

Resistances are fine but when one group can ignore them and another group can't you cause an unfair advantage. Why play a high level PC if you can't actually do anything to the big scary monsters?

You get the problem all over again where you might as well stop at level *insert level* because after that you won't be able to contribute without DM intervention (magic items) or the party caster's pulling you along.

All the big mofos that have this resistance or immunity is so we don't have commoners killing Asmodeus. Fighters are not commoners and should be able to be more fantastical than commoners. Ignoring resistance or immunity (isn't there a feat that let's magic users do something like this... Oh that's right there is) is a good start.

In the hands of a commoner this sword is just a piece of metal, but in the hands of a fighter this sword can pierce even a god.

Because he is just that damn good.

[rollingForInit]

Some oldschool players have this condescending attitude towards the fighter class, that it's supposed to be dirt simple, because it's for people who are either not experienced or not smart enough to play a spellcaster. The purpose of the Champion is to pander to that attitude.

I think that is condescending to say. There are plenty of people who haven't played anything other than 5e or 4e who don't want complex classes with lots of choices or spells. They want a character with a big weapon that can hit hard. One member of our group (who has never played oldschool d&d) loves the simplicity of the Champion and that it allows the character to hit hard, and doesn't have tons of spells or combat maneuvers to go through.

Not everything has to be complex to be good. Simple can be good as well. The Champion isn't pandering to oldschoolers, it's making sure that there's something for everyone, whether you want spellbooks and tons of choices or something more straightforward.

[silveralen]

I don't think it's there entirely to just be a simple fighter, though that's part of if, but also to allow for people who like a certain type of fighter/melee build, the crit fisher.

From an optimization stand point he is rather interesting. A three level fighter dip can be highly beneficial to a barbarian due to advantage making the improved crit range more noticeable plus the improved critical damage. Or critical sneak attacks/smites. Or mix with the GWF feat/Half Orc. Or figure out a way to gain constant advantage to improve your chance of critting further. Etc.

Some people enjoyed such characters because they offer both a chance to find neat build tricks, and in game they can be rather exciting to play as you cross your fingers each time.

That being said I'm not super thrilled with some of the changes to champion (or BM) from the playtest. I enjoyed criticals coming with neat riders based on weapon type for example.

[Ziegander]

The above is almost entirely incorrect - you don't crit 5% of the time, you automatically hit 5% of the time and that has nothing at all to do with the Champion's improved critical range.

Uh. Except that a 20, yes, an automatic hit, is the ONLY way a non-Champion anything can score a critical hit, so, yes, you do crit 5% of the time if you're not a Champion Fighter.


The percentage (and every calculation you tried to base on that percentage) relies entirely on your attack modifier and the enemy's armor class. If you need a 13 or higher to hit something, the default critical accounts for 12.5% of your hits and for a high leveled Champion 37.5% of his successful attacks will be crits. That is an extremely significant improvement and that improvement only grows as things get harder to hit.

Okay, so would you rather we delve into average monster AC by CR? Because that's going to be a nasty business, especially because at low PC levels, CR is itself an almost worthless metric for determining what is actually an appropriate challenge for the PCs.

In your theoretical example, let's discuss then, the actual damage increase that the critical threat range bestows. We'll discuss a 15th level Fighter with Str 20 and a +2 Greatsword. With +5 from his Strength score, +5 from his proficiency bonus, and +2 from his weapon, he's got a +12 attack bonus. Pretty good. Unfortunately, he must be fighting something pretty formidable, because he's swinging at AC 25, and he's missing a lot more often than he's hitting. What this means is, if he attacks this thing ten times, he'll hit 4 times, and 1.5 of those hits will be a critical (37.5% of his successful hits is a critical). Now then, instead of modeling 1.5 critical hits, because that's odd, we'll just say he attacked 20 times, and hit 8 times, three of which were critical hits. What this means is he dealt 5 * 2d6+7 damage and 3 * 4d6+7 damage, for a total average damage of 133. Another character without this expanded range with a +2 Greatsword and Str 20 would have instead dealt 7 * 2d6+7 + 4d6+7, for a total average damage of 119. Over the course of 7 rounds, this means the Champion Fighter is dealing approximately 2 points of damage more per round than the other Fighter archetypes would if they never used their class features.

Now, none of the rest of this is provable, but if we assume 7 encounters per day (right in between 6 to 8 that the FreeMG recommends), and we assume encounters last roughly 6 rounds, that's 42 rounds of attacks each day. You can talk about "sustainable, consistent damage" all day if you want, but an EK has 30 rounds of Enlarge per day, which very nearly covers the damage gulf by itself, without even talking about the other 8 spells it has; a Battlemaster has at least 12 superiority dice per day, if we're talking about a day without short rests, and with each one can add 6.5 damage to an attack, basically a Greatsword crit on command, in addition to doing other stuff, and that's 78 extra damage over the course of 7 encounters, which is even closer to covering the damage difference being less than .15 damage per round (over the course of 6 rounds in 7 encounters) less than what the Champion Fighter would be doing. On a day with two short rests and 7 encounters, you're probably looking more at something like 19 superiority dice or so, in which case, the Battlemaster's damage for the day really does overshoot the Champion Fighter's by a fair margin.

[Sartharina]

Yeah, good point. I completely overlooked the regeneration, probably because it comes in so late. I imagine I'd have less of a beef with the Champion if his regeneration came in earlier. Perhaps it could scale (starting out as 1+CON at level 5 and peaking at 5+CON at level 18?). However, IMHO it's too little too late as it stands right now.



I understand the idea, it's just that there's nothing about the crunch that makes it in any way a viable playstyle. Simply getting better crit modifiers and very late regeneration does not make it worthwhile.The only problem I have with the Champion is that "Exceptional Athlete" does not apply to trained skills, while the very existence of Expertise indicates that it wouldn't break the game.

A Champion Fighter can get plenty of mileage out of his Feats, Second Wind, Indomitable (Though Lucky's better), and Action Surge, without having to worry about managing superiority dice or spell slots.

Champion Fighters also get a second Fighting Style.

[Slipperychicken]

I think that is condescending to say. There are plenty of people who haven't played anything other than 5e or 4e who don't want complex classes with lots of choices or spells. They want a character with a big weapon that can hit hard. One member of our group (who has never played oldschool d&d) loves the simplicity of the Champion and that it allows the character to hit hard, and doesn't have tons of spells or combat maneuvers to go through.

Not everything has to be complex to be good. Simple can be good as well. The Champion isn't pandering to oldschoolers, it's making sure that there's something for everyone, whether you want spellbooks and tons of choices or something more straightforward.

You also have people who are totally new to RPGs, and you don't want to overwhelm them.


There are also quite a few people who have better things to do with their lives than spend 6 hours a day studying for a game they're only going to play once a week.

[Shadow]

Why play a high level PC if you can't actually do anything to the big scary monsters?

You get the problem all over again where you might as well stop at level *insert level* because after that you won't be able to contribute without DM intervention (magic items) or the party caster's pulling you along.

All the big mofos that have this resistance or immunity is so we don't have commoners killing Asmodeus. Fighters are not commoners and should be able to be more fantastical than commoners. Ignoring resistance or immunity (isn't there a feat that let's magic users do something like this... Oh that's right there is) is a good start.

High level PCs will be able to do somehting to the monsters. Because high level PCs will have magic weapons.
Yes, I know, magic is less prevalent in 5e. But "less prevalent" is different than not available.
Just because the magic mart has gone the way of the dodo doesn't mean that it requires DM intervention. All it requires is that the DM does his job. The players are expected to find magic items throughout their adventures, they just aren't supposed to be able to stop by any little village and buy any magic item they want.
The DM will hand out magic items. They just might not be the EXACT best item that you've been dreaming of.

As for ignoring resistance like the caster feat, well, that mechanic already exists for martial classes. It's called magic weapons, and they don't require a feat to use.
That previously craptastic +1 dagger of garbage that immediately got sold in the previous two editions? Well now you might just want to hang onto it.

[silveralen]

The only problem I have with the Champion is that "Exceptional Athlete" does not apply to trained skills, while the very existence of Expertise indicates that it wouldn't break the game.

This is something that rather bugs me as well. I'd probably ask if I could outright ignore it of I were to consider making one.

[Giant2005]

In your theoretical example, let's discuss then, the actual damage increase that the critical threat range bestows. We'll discuss a 15th level Fighter with Str 20 and a +2 Greatsword. With +5 from his Strength score, +5 from his proficiency bonus, and +2 from his weapon, he's got a +12 attack bonus. Pretty good. Unfortunately, he must be fighting something pretty formidable, because he's swinging at AC 25, and he's missing a lot more often than he's hitting. What this means is, if he attacks this thing ten times, he'll hit 4 times, and 1.5 of those hits will be a critical (37.5% of his successful hits is a critical). Now then, instead of modeling 1.5 critical hits, because that's odd, we'll just say he attacked 20 times, and hit 8 times, three of which were critical hits. What this means is he dealt 5 * 2d6+7 damage and 3 * 4d6+7 damage, for a total average damage of 133. Another character without this expanded range with a +2 Greatsword and Str 20 would have instead dealt 7 * 2d6+7 + 4d6+7, for a total average damage of 119. Over the course of 7 rounds, this means the Champion Fighter is dealing approximately 2 points of damage more per round than the other Fighter archetypes would if they never used their class features.
You are forgetting magic damage on the weapon.
It is pretty reasonable to assume that at level 15 the Fighter will have something that is at least comparable to the level 7 weapon Hazirawn (+2D6 necrotic damage) which changes your calculations a fair bit.
Taking the magic damage into consideration, the result would be 5 * 4D6+7 and 3 * 8D6+7 for a total average damage of 210 vs the unexpanded crit ranged character's 7 * 4D6+7 + 8D6+7 for an average of 182; which is over a 15% increase in damage. That difference multiplies further when you consider that Enlarge spell is more efficiently used on the Champion than it is the Eldritch Knight or Wizard or whatever (Due to higher crit threshold resulting in more average damage gained by the buff), so in any well coordinated team the caster will be using it on him. The same applies to other spells, even others that function for the entire team such as bestow curse. Any increase in variable damage only serves to increase the value of the Champion's expanded crit range.

[Vogonjeltz]

Rolls eyes*

Resistances are fine but when one group can ignore them and another group can't you cause an unfair advantage. Why play a high level PC if you can't actually do anything to the big scary monsters?

You get the problem all over again where you might as well stop at level *insert level* because after that you won't be able to contribute without DM intervention (magic items) or the party caster's pulling you along.

All the big mofos that have this resistance or immunity is so we don't have commoners killing Asmodeus. Fighters are not commoners and should be able to be more fantastical than commoners. Ignoring resistance or immunity (isn't there a feat that let's magic users do something like this... Oh that's right there is) is a good start.

In the hands of a commoner this sword is just a piece of metal, but in the hands of a fighter this sword can pierce even a god.

Because he is just that damn good.

A commoner in 5th has no special features, and no ability score modifiers, and appears to only have proficiency in their club.

Your commoner comparison is rooted in 3.5 biases, and this isn't 3.5

[Tengu_temp]

I think that is condescending to say. There are plenty of people who haven't played anything other than 5e or 4e who don't want complex classes with lots of choices or spells. They want a character with a big weapon that can hit hard. One member of our group (who has never played oldschool d&d) loves the simplicity of the Champion and that it allows the character to hit hard, and doesn't have tons of spells or combat maneuvers to go through.

Not everything has to be complex to be good. Simple can be good as well. The Champion isn't pandering to oldschoolers, it's making sure that there's something for everyone, whether you want spellbooks and tons of choices or something more straightforward.

What I said is a definite stance some people have - speak to them and you will find it. What makes it condescending is that those people will look down on you for playing a fighter, thinking you're either a noob or too dumb - someone smart enough would graduate to playing a caster already! They rarely say this aloud, but read between the lines and this sentiment is definitely there. It's also usually combined with not caring how massively overpowered casters are - they're the master class, after all, harder to use but also much more powerful when used correctly - and scoffing at attempts to make non-magical characters more interesting to play.

[HorridElemental]

High level PCs will be able to do somehting to the monsters. Because high level PCs will have magic weapons.
Yes, I know, magic is less prevalent in 5e. But "less prevalent" is different than not available.
Just because the magic mart has gone the way of the dodo doesn't mean that it requires DM intervention. All it requires is that the DM does his job. The players are expected to find magic items throughout their adventures, they just aren't supposed to be able to stop by any little village and buy any magic item they want.
The DM will hand out magic items. They just might not be the EXACT best item that you've been dreaming of.

As for ignoring resistance like the caster feat, well, that mechanic already exists for martial classes. It's called magic weapons, and they don't require a feat to use.
That previously craptastic +1 dagger of garbage that immediately got sold in the previous two editions? Well now you might just want to hang onto it.

High level PCs do not necessarily mean they have magic weapons. The game is not made that way at all. Experienced DMs may deal with these problems but new or DMs who barely know what they are doing will have problems (which fall to the players, well some players).

Fire resistance? Who cares, I have a cold spell. Resistant to elemental damage? Who cares I'm going to stun/paralyze/scare them.... That feat was just the easiest example to show how casters get to ignore the rules. Non-castera get no such things. How is allowing abfighter to ignore resistance and then immunity to nonmagical weapons going to hurt anything?

Sorry but it won't.



A commoner in 5th has no special features, and no ability score modifiers, and appears to only have proficiency in their club.

Your commoner comparison is rooted in 3.5 biases, and this isn't 3.5

Throughout the playtest there was the Commoners versus Asmodeus trial. Also then"how many commoners equals a fighter" trial. The fact you can measure a class in commoners is quite sad. Try measuring spells like invisibility and fly in units ofncomminers....

Because of the system commoners can hit and kill anything that isn't immune to non magical weapons.

And that sounds just like our fighter. I rather not play Mr Commoner^x when I jump into a fantasy game. A game where if I chose the wrong class then the game abitrarily says "screw you".

Fighters are so much better compared to the game than they used to be (except 4e, they were gods in 4e) but they still are under the fantasy glass ceiling.

[Shadow]

Sorry but it won't.

Sorry, but it will.
If it didn't matter, then the monsters wouldn't be designed with these things in mind. If it didn't matter, then resistance wouldn't even exist in the first place.

Allowing fighters to simply ignore something that was a factor in determining the CR of a creature unbalances the creature with regards to its CR. That, by definition, makes your proposed "solution" unbalancing in favor of the fighter.

[HorridElemental]

Sorry, but it will.
If it didn't matter, then the monsters wouldn't be designed with these things in mind. If it didn't matter, then resistance wouldn't even exist in the first place.

Allowing fighters to simply ignore something that was a factor in determining the CR of a creature unbalances the creature with regards to its CR. That, by definition, makes your proposed "solution" unbalancing in favor of the fighter.

Nonmagical weapon resistance and immunity wasn't placed in the game because of the fighter or rogue. It was placed in there because commoners could fricken kill Asmodeus.

[Shadow]

Nonmagical weapon resistance and immunity wasn't placed in the game because of the fighter or rogue. It was placed in there because commoners could fricken kill Asmodeus.

In a couple of cases possibly. But in the majority of cases that just isn't true. Or are you going to tell me next that werewolves didn't have any special weapon requirements until some idiot on a forum ran a test combat and decided that commoners could kill werebeasts too quickly?
Weapon reqs are a factor in CR in most cases, and it's not due to the "commoner factor" that this is true.

[odigity]

The purpose of the Champion is to pander to that attitude.

Pander has a negative connotation.

The Fighter class has always been the simplest, and regardless of the designers' reasons, the result was that it was the best class to suggest to a brand new player.

The existance of the Champion archetype is extremely useful for that same purpose. A new player just joined our group for their first D&D game, and they're going to take Champion archetype, which I approved. It's good that it's simple, and yet still fun because of the extra crits.

That's not to say that it's balanced in terms of power. Could definitely use another boost or two. Overcoming magic resistance as an ability seems like a reasonable suggestion, and still quite minor.

[MaxWilson]

The only problem I have with the Champion is that "Exceptional Athlete" does not apply to trained skills, while the very existence of Expertise indicates that it wouldn't break the game.

A Champion Fighter can get plenty of mileage out of his Feats, Second Wind, Indomitable (Though Lucky's better), and Action Surge, without having to worry about managing superiority dice or spell slots.

Champion Fighters also get a second Fighting Style.

As I read RAW, Lucky and Indomitable actually stack, because one affects the dice rolled for a saving throw, and the other allows you to re-roll a failed saving throw. A Lucky Halfling Fighter 20 would be about as magic-resistant at it gets. :)

[Kadarai]

As a side note, I don't see any1 mentioning that in this edition, a critical hit is also a confirmed automatic hit with doubled dice. Being guaranteed to hit anything 3/20 times, even if they shield/parry/finesse or whatever with any weapon against any AC is not bad at all. Plus it's the archetype that makes the best use of the Great Weapon Mastery feat, as he will proc it twice as much if not more than any other character, so that crap about 1.05 modifier is bogus. Do your math again.

Champions are a definite melee powerhouse 24/7. Other classes may or may not go nova but soon run out of juice. This guy runs on eniveroment-friendly almost infinite amounts of energy. Chops, slices, dices, and stays watch while other softies spend their HD to heal after he swipes the battle field because, hey, he ends combat with at least half HP already regenerated. Who else can do that?

[MaxWilson]

Give the champion fighter a way to ignore the non-magical weapon resistance and immunity that monsters get!

This allows them to stay useful versus monsters without the help of magic items or casters.

Hmm that shouldn't be an archetype feature, just a Fighter class feature.

If you were going to do this, it should be a subclass feature for a new archetype (like Moon Druids get for their natural weapons) or a feat (like Elemental Adept). It shouldn't be a fighter Freebie on top of what they already get, that's unfair. They're already the best damage-dealing class in the game, no need to also make them automatically ignore all immunities.


Fire resistance? Who cares, I have a cold spell. Resistant to elemental damage? Who cares I'm going to stun/paralyze/scare them.... That feat was just the easiest example to show how casters get to ignore the rules. Non-castera get no such things. How is allowing abfighter to ignore resistance and then immunity to nonmagical weapons going to hurt anything?

Giving "ignore weapon immunities" is not analogous to the wizard's ability to switch spells. The correct analogue would be the fighter switching to grappling/proning (because the opportunity cost of shoves decreases if your weapons are doing only half damage) and then beating the enemy senseless with advantage. In the wizard's case, he had to prepare a backup spell and it probably doesn't work as well as his favorite go-to Fireball spell, but it gets the job done. In the fighter's case, advantage for self + disadvantage for enemies probably compensates for weapon resistance (not in pure DPR but in loss ratio, or even better if there are other party members around who aren't affected by weapon resistances), but he loses two attacks setting up the prone/grapple so it doesn't work as well as his regular attack--but it gets the job done. Also, if he fighter ever finds a magic weapon he gets to entirely ignore weapon resistance, forever, whereas if the wizard spends a feat on Elemental Adept for his Fireballs he still has to deal with fire-immune creatures and Iron Golems, and there are other creatures that simply cannot ever be stunned/charmed/etc. Which is fine, BTW, the wizard is for people who like complicated stuff, but it is another reason why just switching off weapon resistances/immunities would be a unfair, not to mention nonsensical. "Werewolves can only be harmed by silver weapons or by fire, or by someone who has killed at least a thousand orcs."

[Shadow]

As a side note, I don't see any1 mentioning that in this edition, a critical hit is also a confirmed automatic hit with doubled dice.

Our house rule is this:
Crit confirmation roll added.
An unconfirmed crit hits and deals RollDamageDiceTwice+Mod, just as the PHB states. Roll twice.
A confirmed crit deals (MaxDamageDice)+RollDamageDice+Mod. Max once + roll once + mod.
If the confirmation roll is a natural 20, it deals (2xMaxDamageDice)+mod. Double max + mod.

[MaxWilson]

Champions are a definite melee powerhouse 24/7. Other classes may or may not go nova but soon run out of juice. This guy runs on eniveroment-friendly almost infinite amounts of energy. Chops, slices, dices, and stays watch while other softies spend their HD to heal after he swipes the battle field because, hey, he ends combat with at least half HP already regenerated. Who else can do that?

You don't think the Champion would also spend HD to heal up to full?

Survivor is one of those abilities that looks cool on paper, and maybe it is cool in practice--but I also worry that due to the nature of the metagame, it might not actually work well in practice. Survivor would let a 20th level champion be the one character in the game who could single-handedly defeat an entire army of 10,000 orcs, which is pretty awesome from a story standpoint... but it doesn't do much to help you against small numbers of spikier enemies, like a red dragon. And most DMs are not actually going to have you fight arbitrarily large numbers of orcs and goblins because it's a hassle for them to run that kind of combat, so the Champion never fights in his sweet spot.

[numerek]

You don't think the Champion would also spend HD to heal up to full?

Survivor is one of those abilities that looks cool on paper, and maybe it is cool in practice--but I also worry that due to the nature of the metagame, it might not actually work well in practice. Survivor would let a 20th level champion be the one character in the game who could single-handedly defeat an entire army of 10,000 orcs, which is pretty awesome from a story standpoint... but it doesn't do much to help you against small numbers of spikier enemies, like a red dragon. And most DMs are not actually going to have you fight arbitrarily large numbers of orcs and goblins because it's a hassle for them to run that kind of combat, so the Champion never fights in his sweet spot.

20th level moon druid also

[Kadarai]

You don't think the Champion would also spend HD to heal up to full?


he will. and he will need half as less HD most of the times as the next guy. Being able to go to half and then heal is an defint advantage.

And even RAW crits are more than enough to make up for the Improved Critical abilitys usefulness, especially with double odds from advantage and the at least average damage guarantied by the Great Weapon Fighting Style

[Sartharina]

And, a fighter gets a free Hit Die every short rest to spend! Actually worse than a hit die prior to level 3 or so, but better afterward.


If you were going to do this, it should be a subclass feature for a new archetype (like Moon Druids get for their natural weapons) or a feat (like Elemental Adept). It shouldn't be a fighter Freebie on top of what they already get, that's unfair. They're already the best damage-dealing class in the game, no need to also make them automatically ignore all immunities.Which is why he gave it to the Champion, instead of Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight.



"Werewolves can only be harmed by silver weapons or by fire, or by someone who has killed at least a thousand orcs."A man who has fought a thousand monsters would have enough knowledge of hurting things to bypass supernatural resistance. "I know a trick!"

[MaxWilson]

Which is why he gave it to the Champion, instead of Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight.

From a balance standpoint, I could live with it as a Champion class feature, although from a fluff perspective I dislike it. However, I was responding specifically to the suggestion that it be a Fighter class feature. Re-quoting with emphasis:


Give the champion fighter a way to ignore the non-magical weapon resistance and immunity that monsters get!

This allows them to stay useful versus monsters without the help of magic items or casters.

Hmm that shouldn't be an archetype feature, just a Fighter class feature.

Do you agree that the Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight should not get this?

[hecetv]

Tbh I abstractly really like the champion. If I ever play a fighter that's probably what I'll go for but I don't feel particularly fighter inclined these days so I don't know.

I think what I would like to see as a buff to the champion would be giving them EVEN MORE stat ups. I think that would sweeten the deal if they could walk out with more feats and stats than ANYONE even other fighters and give them (probably) more tactical options and or give them straight twenties in all their physical stats or whatever.

But honestly as is I don't know that there's anything wrong with the champion. Hell I keep wavering. My friend wants to DM a really short campaign and I keep looking over at the fighter and wondering......... Maybe I'll do fighter/rogue.... But multiclass is so hard organically I think.

[Kaeso]

I think what I would like to see as a buff to the champion would be giving them EVEN MORE stat ups. I think that would sweeten the deal if they could walk out with more feats and stats than ANYONE even other fighters and give them (probably) more tactical options and or give them straight twenties in all their physical stats or whatever.

Given that you can't raise your stats over 20 and given that STR and CON are the only important stats for a non-Eldritch Knight fighter, this would end up making them akin to the fighter of 3.5e. I think the same applies here as applied in 3.5e: feats are not a good replacement for class features.

[Shadow]

Given that you can't raise your stats over 20 and given that STR and CON are the only important stats for a non-Eldritch Knight fighter, this would end up making them akin to the fighter of 3.5e. I think the same applies here as applied in 3.5e: feats are not a good replacement for class features.

An important thing to remember, which people seem to forget, is that defenses do not scale at all. Once your primary stats hit 20 (and in some cases before then), those extra stat bumps each increase one of your non-AC defenses by a point. Thus, the fighter, by virtue of having more ability score increases, has not only the best AC potential, but also the best non-AC defensive potential as well (excluding monks).

[Strill]

Let's talk about criticals in 5e and extending critical threat range.

A Fighter with Str 16 and a Greatsword deals 2d6+3, or 4d6+3 on a critical. That's average damage of 10 on a non-crit hit, and average damage of 17 on a crit. That seems like an okay swing, except when you consider that you're only dealing 7 extra damage on 5% of your attacks. So the aggregate average extra damage here that the normal crit rules afford you is .35. That's with the highest base martial weapon dice in the book. That seems really low, huh?

Now then, a Champion Fighter can crit on a 19-20. He's DOUBLED his critical threat range. A normal Fighter crits 5% of the time, while a Champion crits 10% of the time. Nice. But all this actually means is that his aggregate average extra damage is doubled too, from .35 to .7. Ew... By the time we get to 15th level, the Champion finally triples his threat range, and increases his overall average damage by slightly more than 1 point, his aggregate average extra damage from criticals having gone up to 1.05.

Since the math shows that, given the way 5e criticals work, and without some magic weapon that has extra effects on a critical, these critical threat range boosting features are almost completely worthless. The Champion should definitely be getting something else on his 3rd and 15th levels. Hell, Battlemasters get two maneuvers and four superiority dice and also proficiency with some artisan's tools. Eldritch Knight's get two cantrips, three spells known, and two spells per day and also Weapon Bond. Honestly, even though the expanded threat range does increase the Fighter's combat abilities, they are so weak that they are on the level of Weapon Bond and a bonus artisan's tool proficiency.

You forgot great weapon fighting style. That makes 2d6 worth 8.33 damage on average.

With regards to the champion being weak, in order to make a crit build work you need synergy. Advantage, for example, close to doubles your crit chance. Great Weapon Master gives you a bonus attack when you crit. And of course, each attack has a separate chance to crit.

Combine that 15% chance to crit with Advantage and it becomes a 30% chance to crit. That's a substantial difference.

You can say that it's not fair that the fighter can't exploit their own synergies, but I think it's ok. The Fighter's Extra Attack in and of itself is the most synergistic of the martial classes' bonuses, so it makes sense to me that Champion would have an ability that is ok on its own but great when combined with synergistic effects.

[hecetv]

Given that you can't raise your stats over 20 and given that STR and CON are the only important stats for a non-Eldritch Knight fighter, this would end up making them akin to the fighter of 3.5e. I think the same applies here as applied in 3.5e: feats are not a good replacement for class features.

Fair enough. And not that your post has anything to do with this, but I still think champion as is is more compelling to me than the other two fighter archetypes (but barely more so than eldritch knight) and I know other people agree with me and others completely disagree. Which I think makes it not a trap anyway as per the OP.

Champion hits a lot and hits hard. He's not the party wizard or rogue, but if you need a ugh to get buffed up and charge head first into a dragon, there aren't a lot of better choices.

Though I will say I think for me personally I would want to dip into other classes to have other abilities, champion is just like a mean engine for me. So maybe that makes it flawed. But another part of me can see some great storytelling/roleplay aspects to being the most badass albeit mundane combatant around. And really by bread and butter in dnd isn't min maxing and combat, I'm much more interested in other parts.

I think I'll just always have some interest in being a super traditional knight a la Lancelot or whoever. Something about a common man in a world of magic, making it work. Same thing with rogues for me.

[silveralen]

An important thing to remember, which people seem to forget, is that defenses do not scale at all. Once your primary stats hit 20 (and in some cases before then), those extra stat bumps each increase one of your non-AC defenses by a point. Thus, the fighter, by virtue of having more ability score increases, has not only the best AC potential, but also the best non-AC defensive potential as well (excluding monks).

Or grab resilient.

Seriously, having feats to burn is amazing.

[Ziegander]

You forgot great weapon fighting style. That makes 2d6 worth 8.33 damage on average.

With regards to the champion being weak, in order to make a crit build work you need synergy. Advantage, for example, close to doubles your crit chance. Great Weapon Master gives you a bonus attack when you crit. And of course, each attack has a separate chance to crit.

Combine that 15% chance to crit with Advantage and it becomes a 30% chance to crit. That's a substantial difference.

You can say that it's not fair that the fighter can't exploit their own synergies, but I think it's ok. The Fighter's Extra Attack in and of itself is the most synergistic of the martial classes' bonuses, so it makes sense to me that Champion would have an ability that is ok on its own but great when combined with synergistic effects.

Once Giant 2005 forced me to re-evaluate my math, I've actually been forced to reconsider the Champion. I do still think it's not quite good enough, compared to the other two subclasses, but it's not the pile that it is being bemoaned as. Yes, on any average day, a Battlemaster will still probably outdamage it + have cool rider effects and other synergies and combat effects. Yes, on any average day, the Eldritch Knight has VASTLY more utility and ranged capability than a Champion. BUT, the Champion really doesn't have to sweat damage and also gets a second Fighting Style, which should not be underestimated, as well as the amazing late game regeneration. I think it's underpowered, but not by much, and I like the idea of allowing them to bypass immunity/resistance to non-magic weapon attacks. With one more little feature thrown in, I think the subclass would be golden.

[MaxWilson]

An important thing to remember, which people seem to forget, is that defenses do not scale at all. Once your primary stats hit 20 (and in some cases before then), those extra stat bumps each increase one of your non-AC defenses by a point. Thus, the fighter, by virtue of having more ability score increases, has not only the best AC potential, but also the best non-AC defensive potential as well (excluding monks).

The fighter likely takes Resilient (Stat) instead of Stat +2, so it's likely to be more than a point.

[Lokiare]

Once Giant 2005 forced me to re-evaluate my math, I've actually been forced to reconsider the Champion. I do still think it's not quite good enough, compared to the other two subclasses, but it's not the pile that it is being bemoaned as. Yes, on any average day, a Battlemaster will still probably outdamage it + have cool rider effects and other synergies and combat effects. Yes, on any average day, the Eldritch Knight has VASTLY more utility and ranged capability than a Champion. BUT, the Champion really doesn't have to sweat damage and also gets a second Fighting Style, which should not be underestimated, as well as the amazing late game regeneration. I think it's underpowered, but not by much, and I like the idea of allowing them to bypass immunity/resistance to non-magic weapon attacks. With one more little feature thrown in, I think the subclass would be golden.

I'd go ahead and just make it an actual magical weapon:

Masterful Weapon Skill
The Champion is the paragon of weapon usage and any weapon they hold gains near magical properties as long as they hold it.
Effect: Any weapon used by the Champion is considered to be magical for the purposes of hitting creatures and the Champion gains a magical bonus to their attacks and damage while wielding a weapon equal to 1/6th of their level rounded down (so at 6th level they get a magical +1 bonus, at 12th they get a +2, and at 18th they get a +3). This bonus does not stack with magical weapon bonuses.

In addition I'd give them a couple extra attacks and maybe a bonus feat on top.

The Battle Master fighter I'd just scrap entirely and put the 4E fighter in its place combining any duplicate powers and instead make them scale with level.

[odigity]

I'd go ahead and just make it an actual magical weapon:
...(snip free +3 weapon of any kind on demand)...
In addition I'd give them a couple extra attacks and maybe a bonus feat on top.

You sure are generous. Can I play in your campaign? (Along with all the other broken homebrewed classes you must have piled up by now...)

[Hytheter]

equal to 1/6th of their level rounded down (so at 6th level they get a magical +1 bonus, at 12th they get a +2, and at 18th they get a +3).

Why not make it half proficiency bonus rounded down? It's a slightly faster progression, but it has the same minimum and maximum values without having to calculate 1/6th of anything.

[silveralen]

You sure are generous. Can I play in your campaign? (Along with all the other broken homebrewed classes you must have piled up by now...)

I love the idea of champion fighter having 6 attacks total. It's so hilarious. Imagine the novas!

[odigity]

Why not make it half proficiency bonus rounded down? It's a slightly faster progression, but it has the same minimum and maximum values without having to calculate 1/6th of anything.

How about just +0?

It's one thing to create a class feature that lets you bypass magical immunity, it's quite another to make free magic +1..+3 weapon a class feature. That's crazy.

You realize there's no point now in a Champion having an actual magic weapon, because it would be redundant?

"Look, Zeke! A magical +2 greatsword! That'd be perfect for you!"
"Meh."

[Sartharina]

"Look, Zeke! A magical +2 greatsword! That'd be perfect for you!"
"Meh."
"Did I mention it lets you shoot lightning?"

I use homebrew magic items. My current party has low-level magic items (Actually animated armor and swords) that give small bonuses (Sword is +1, but doesn't bypass resistance)... but if they leave them unattuned, they re-animate and go berzerk!

[Krymoar]

Don't forget to consider the mechanics of 5e itself.

The fighter is made to eventually make more attacks than any other class, with the increased crit range and the exta ASIs the Fighters have access to, that might provide them with more Opportunity Attacks than others.

Also consider taking feats like GWF with the -5/+10, you are taking a -5, but if you consider Crits automatic hits, then you still have an extended range to hit with the extended crit range.






Also think of the Advantage Mechanic, and how it will effect the increased Crit range.

You may not need to bring more control effects to your group, if others are supplying you with advantage, or you are grappling and supplying it yourself, you don't need the Fancy, limited and sometimes Savable abilities of the Battle Master Fighter.



Extended Crit range has no saving throw against it, and you can abuse it very easily, make more attacks.

Battle Master gets 4 Dice that he can apply independently to each attack?


Crits don't run out.



Edit: Forgot to add, extra fighting style. If you can make use of two, you have yourself some decent bonuses on top of extra feats.

[Forum Explorer]

In conclusion, it might be weaker but it's hardly a trap. A Champion Fighter will be able to contribute to the game without much difficulty if any.

[Occasional Sage]

There are also quite a few people who have better things to do with their lives than spend 6 hours a day studying for a game they're only going to play once a week.


Somehow you started typing gibberish for a minute. I doubt you had a stroke, there's too much similarity to real words despite the lack of sense. Perhaps you copy-pasted a block of lorem ipsum?

[Fwiffo86]

I'd like to have a discussion about the Fighter archetypes, and more specifically why the Champion archetype may just be entirely useless. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about pure strength or versatility, but simply how much each archetype has to offer.

The Eldritch Knight archetype is obviously the strongest. It gives you access to a limited array of spells that are still quite useful, as well as some situationally useful other goodies.
The Battle Master has a few useful manouvers that allow you to do much more than just stand in front of an enemy and smack him. Tripping, pushing, provoking and allowing someone else to attack on your turn are but a few things a Battle Master can do.
The Champion on the other hand... what does he really offer? It just gives you improved critical and... nothing else. So now instead of getting a critical on a natural 20, you get a critical on rolls in the 18-20 range. Was that really worth an entire archetype, when you end up doing the exact same thing a theoretical archetype-less fighter would be doing?

My problem with the Champion isn't that he is weak or underpowered, if that were my problem I would also have complaints about the Battle Master in comparison to the Eldritch Knight. My problem is that taking the Champion archetype is only barely better than not taking an archetype at all.

I look at it as the Champion has the fastest combat ender. Killing his target. Often at multiple levels, the Champion fighter just kills his target or two of them per round. No concentration rolls needed, no fiddly mechanics to get used up, he does what he does, all day long.

He brings the "dead" condition quickly, efficiently, and once they are in that condition, they are no longer a threat to the party. Period. I don't see that at useless. I think its a very strong class, and so far, out of the players I have seen use fighters, all but one have been champions. People want the damage. They want to hit as hard as they can.

Maybe its a flaw in viewing, maybe its a flaw in thinking just because it has only this and that, while these have all of these options, its bad. I support the champion 100%. It works, and it works extremely well. The same cannot be said for some others.

[Perseus]

I look at it as the Champion has the fastest combat ender. Killing his target. Often at multiple levels, the Champion fighter just kills his target or two of them per round. No concentration rolls needed, no fiddly mechanics to get used up, he does what he does, all day long.

He brings the "dead" condition quickly, efficiently, and once they are in that condition, they are no longer a threat to the party. Period. I don't see that at useless. I think its a very strong class, and so far, out of the players I have seen use fighters, all but one have been champions. People want the damage. They want to hit as hard as they can.

Maybe its a flaw in viewing, maybe its a flaw in thinking just because it has only this and that, while these have all of these options, its bad. I support the champion 100%. It works, and it works extremely well. The same cannot be said for some others.

There are interesting ways to kill things that are simple to use without resorting to the champion.

I would love to have a simple killing machine that is interesting to use. But to do this I think the core rules need to support such a class. 5e is closer to doing that (jump and climb... Omg so much better) but it still fell flat.

[Shining Wrath]

Uh. Except that a 20, yes, an automatic hit, is the ONLY way a non-Champion anything can score a critical hit, so, yes, you do crit 5% of the time if you're not a Champion Fighter.



Okay, so would you rather we delve into average monster AC by CR? Because that's going to be a nasty business, especially because at low PC levels, CR is itself an almost worthless metric for determining what is actually an appropriate challenge for the PCs.

In your theoretical example, let's discuss then, the actual damage increase that the critical threat range bestows. We'll discuss a 15th level Fighter with Str 20 and a +2 Greatsword. With +5 from his Strength score, +5 from his proficiency bonus, and +2 from his weapon, he's got a +12 attack bonus. Pretty good. Unfortunately, he must be fighting something pretty formidable, because he's swinging at AC 25, and he's missing a lot more often than he's hitting. What this means is, if he attacks this thing ten times, he'll hit 4 times, and 1.5 of those hits will be a critical (37.5% of his successful hits is a critical). Now then, instead of modeling 1.5 critical hits, because that's odd, we'll just say he attacked 20 times, and hit 8 times, three of which were critical hits. What this means is he dealt 5 * 2d6+7 damage and 3 * 4d6+7 damage, for a total average damage of 133. Another character without this expanded range with a +2 Greatsword and Str 20 would have instead dealt 7 * 2d6+7 + 4d6+7, for a total average damage of 119. Over the course of 7 rounds, this means the Champion Fighter is dealing approximately 2 points of damage more per round than the other Fighter archetypes would if they never used their class features.

Now, none of the rest of this is provable, but if we assume 7 encounters per day (right in between 6 to 8 that the FreeMG recommends), and we assume encounters last roughly 6 rounds, that's 42 rounds of attacks each day. You can talk about "sustainable, consistent damage" all day if you want, but an EK has 30 rounds of Enlarge per day, which very nearly covers the damage gulf by itself, without even talking about the other 8 spells it has; a Battlemaster has at least 12 superiority dice per day, if we're talking about a day without short rests, and with each one can add 6.5 damage to an attack, basically a Greatsword crit on command, in addition to doing other stuff, and that's 78 extra damage over the course of 7 encounters, which is even closer to covering the damage difference being less than .15 damage per round (over the course of 6 rounds in 7 encounters) less than what the Champion Fighter would be doing. On a day with two short rests and 7 encounters, you're probably looking more at something like 19 superiority dice or so, in which case, the Battlemaster's damage for the day really does overshoot the Champion Fighter's by a fair margin.

I think you missed the point of the math - not all swings are hits. 5% of all swings by a normal fighter are crits; but since in tough fights fewer than 50% of swings hit, the ratio of hits that are crits goes up proportionately.

In terms of DPR you're quite correct; but in terms of dropping an intelligent foe who might flee when wounded, the Champion's improved criticals give you a much better chance of taking that foe from "I'm still good!" to "Urk!" in one round.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hmm, this thread is relevant to my interests, as I'm currently stepping out of my comfort zone by playing a completely mundane level 2 human fighter. I've thought about the options a bit, and I think campaign style is going to make or break Champion. In a dungeon setting, where you have your FreeMG daily recommended dose of a million encounters and don't get much opportunity to rest, I think Champion (+ synergistic feat selection) is competitive if not slightly more powerful than a Battle Master. But in an above-ground game where you get more short rests and can choose engagements more sparingly, the Battle Master tends to out-damage the Champion.

Also, to those who say that saving up superiority dice is a downside for the master, that means he can nova more during the most difficult fight, whereas the Champion is essentially just as effective in an easy and hard fight (except action surge, which they both get). What with his ability to gauge potential opponents out of combat (which is, again, easier to do when you're fighting NPCs more than monsters), it's easier to identify when to nova at all, as well.

Though, I can be talked out of this. I'd need some maths, though, and it will be difficult to include stuff like the potential advantage granted to allies from advantage on the Trip maneuver. Makes me wish I rolled a wolf totem barbarian actually...

[Galen]

The Champion is a niche. In fact it occupies two niches at the same time.

One, it's best-in-class for survivability and damage in a no-rest environment. Practically speaking, there's rarely no-rest. Even in a dungeon, but the niche is needed. Second, it's best-in-class for simplicity and lack of activated abilities to keep in mind, least bookkeeping.

For a campaign made up of players savvy enough to strategically rest whenever, and who are not afraid of a bit of bookkeeping ... those players are also savvy enough to understand the Champion is not the class for them.


What with his ability to gauge potential opponents out of combat (which is, again, easier to do when you're fighting NPCs more than monsters), it's easier to identify when to nova at all, as well.
This is an excellent point, I haven't actually noticed how synergistic the Battlemaster is. Thank you for bringing this up.

[Freelance GM]

I don't know... One of my players decided to play a Champion, and then suddenly lost his ability to roll below a 17.

Dude got 3 critical hits in a row on Strahd von Zarovich. Twice.

So, I guess if you're incredibly lucky, the Champion is a fantastic choice for you.

[Galen]

Oh, one more niche the champion occupies: the only way to get 2 combat styles without multiclassing. So you start with two-weapon fighting, which, as we all know is good on low levels but loses steam at 11+, and by level 10 you're ready to pick Duelist or Great Weapon.

[Sartharina]

Oh, one more niche the champion occupies: the only way to get 2 combat styles without multiclassing. So you start with two-weapon fighting, which, as we all know is good on low levels but loses steam at 11+, and by level 10 you're ready to pick Duelist or Great Weapon.Or you grab Archery to be a devastating switch-hitter, or Duelist on your Protection fighter to boost your defensive ability with offensive prowess. Or you grab Defensive with any combat style.

[Vowtz]

Trap? No. You can even combo it with reckless attack, great weapon master, sneak attack... It's not completely useless.

Is it inferior to EK or Battlemaster? Yes, in most situations.

[Gurka]

I'd counter that if you are the type (as I am) who fills the bulk of your in-combat actions with improvised stuff, the champion is ideal. I acknowledge that, it requires a flexible DM. If you intend on attempting a ton of improvised actions, then you'll get limited opportunity to use your battlemaster maneuvers, and even less to cast your spells as an EK.

[Anubis Dread]

The Champion has enough going for it that it's not really a trap. Those extra crits can hurt if you synergize for it (just picking half-orc as your race and using a two-handed weapon is enough to make it competitive, but if you grab more feats it can get pretty nuts), it's bonus to Intiative and other physical checks can be nice if a little underwhelming, it gets two combat styles which can either give it a lot of flexibility or additional power and it's regeneration is nuts when you get to it.

If you want something simple to both build and play Champion works well because it makes 'swing with weapon' a better option than either of the other two Fighter sub-classes. The other two means you either need to mess around with maneuvers or spells, both of which are worse than a Champions improve crit if you're a newbie or don't like fiddling around with your sheet enough to pick the optimal abilities.

If you want something cheesey, the Champion works well because it's improved crit is very abusable, and it feels REALLY good to play that greataxe wielding half-orc with great weapon mastery and just slash at everything until it turns into a fine mist. You have to be a one-trick pony, but if you just want to min-max for maximum hurt and endurance it's a great choice.

The only place the Champion really suffers is flexibility. The other two Fighter subclasses have significantly more tricks to use. The Champion is probably the strongest Fighter subclass in terms of just tanking hits, slashing at dudes and kicking down doors, but in D&D flexibility = power, which is why it comes across as weak.

[Vogonjeltz]

Throughout the playtest there was the Commoners versus Asmodeus trial. Also then"how many commoners equals a fighter" trial. The fact you can measure a class in commoners is quite sad. Try measuring spells like invisibility and fly in units ofncomminers....

Because of the system commoners can hit and kill anything that isn't immune to non magical weapons.

And that sounds just like our fighter. I rather not play Mr Commoner^x when I jump into a fantasy game. A game where if I chose the wrong class then the game abitrarily says "screw you".

Fighters are so much better compared to the game than they used to be (except 4e, they were gods in 4e) but they still are under the fantasy glass ceiling.

How? He isn't statted in either the PHB or the MM. Were stats provided in the playtest?

Fly and Invisibility don't exactly harm other creatures. Flying can be replicated via a flying mount, Invisibility is equivalent to stealth.
The theoretical test is a measurement of how much harm a character can cause to another creature.

Technically the wizard is doing nothing that can't be physically accomplished by another means.


A man who has fought a thousand monsters would have enough knowledge of hurting things to bypass supernatural resistance. "I know a trick!"

That trick being: Carry a silvered or magical weapon at all times.


You forgot great weapon fighting style. That makes 2d6 worth 8.33 damage on average.

With regards to the champion being weak, in order to make a crit build work you need synergy. Advantage, for example, close to doubles your crit chance. Great Weapon Master gives you a bonus attack when you crit. And of course, each attack has a separate chance to crit.

Combine that 15% chance to crit with Advantage and it becomes a 30% chance to crit. That's a substantial difference.

You can say that it's not fair that the fighter can't exploit their own synergies, but I think it's ok. The Fighter's Extra Attack in and of itself is the most synergistic of the martial classes' bonuses, so it makes sense to me that Champion would have an ability that is ok on its own but great when combined with synergistic effects.

Also, a Fighter is in a better position than any other class to grapple/shove an opponent and then follow up with advantage on the remaining attacks, thanks to having up to 4 attacks per round. (8 if they use action surge...which they should if they're able to get advantage for the round and the opponent is a dangerous one).


I'd counter that if you are the type (as I am) who fills the bulk of your in-combat actions with improvised stuff, the champion is ideal. I acknowledge that, it requires a flexible DM. If you intend on attempting a ton of improvised actions, then you'll get limited opportunity to use your battlemaster maneuvers, and even less to cast your spells as an EK.

That has brilliant synergy with the Remarkable Athlete feature, especially when it comes to contests that simply replace a melee attack.

[Sartharina]

Invisibility isn't even stealth. It grants no bonuses to stealth (That I'm aware of), and doesn't stop others from detecting you in any way, beyond allowing you to attempt to Hide without any need for cover or concealment. A handful of commoners creating a distraction could be effective, as could having a crowd of commoners to provide heavy concealment (Though, admittedly, this only works in places the commoners would be expected to be, unless wherever you're trying to sneak takes visitors en masse. And now I've got the silly mental image of a horde of commoners picketing the Tomb of Horrors)

Fly? Just a bunch of commonrs willing to throw you to whereever you need to go, or forming human ladders/pyramids. Also silly, but possible.

Combat Control effects could be handled with enough commoners providing cover-fire or Shoving/Grappling enemies around. Or just applying the 'dead' condition to monsters through lots of attacks.

The only thing Casters have over hordes of commoners is the ability to be an unparalleled taxicab. (But can they parallel park?)
That has brilliant synergy with the Remarkable Athlete feature, especially when it comes to contests that simply replace a melee attack.Except Remarkable Athlete doesn't apply to skills you're already proficient in, unfortunately (Which is weird, considering that it would be no more powerful than Expertise, and more limited than Jack of All Trades)

[thepsyker]

Except Remarkable Athlete doesn't apply to skills you're already proficient in, unfortunately (Which is weird, considering that it would be no more powerful than Expertise, and more limited than Jack of All Trades)That depends on if your improvised actions tie into an existing skill and thus require a skill check or tie in more with one of the areas covered by just a straight ability check. I do agree it is a little odd though that it probably doesn't actually boost your fighters Athletics since you will likely have that trained.

[silveralen]

Except Remarkable Athlete doesn't apply to skills you're already proficient in, unfortunately (Which is weird, considering that it would be no more powerful than Expertise, and more limited than Jack of All Trades)

This is one thing that really bothers me about champion, and something I've already house ruled out.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, a Fighter is in a better position than any other class to grapple/shove an opponent and then follow up with advantage on the remaining attacks, thanks to having up to 4 attacks per round. (8 if they use action surge...which they should if they're able to get advantage for the round and the opponent is a dangerous one).


I'd think barbarians would be best for that, at least before level 11, since they automatically get advantage on strength checks while raging. That means their maneuvers are much more likely to land.

[MaxWilson]

I'd think barbarians would be best for that, at least before level 11, since they automatically get advantage on strength checks while raging. That means their maneuvers are much more likely to land.

I'm AFB, but I thought that was only while using Reckless Attack? Which is decoupled from raging--you can use Reckless Attack, Rage, both, or neither.

[Vogonjeltz]

Except Remarkable Athlete doesn't apply to skills you're already proficient in, unfortunately (Which is weird, considering that it would be no more powerful than Expertise, and more limited than Jack of All Trades)

Agreed, but there's value in that Athletics, for example, only technically applies to 3 types of strength checks. There's a list of 6 more things that are examples of other types of strength checks. So the Champion would get half their proficiency bonus on these things, whereas other non-Bards would get nothing.

Same for Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand and the 8 other examples of Dexterity checks, and the 5 examples of Constitution checks. Granted, the Bard's Jack of All Trades is even broader in scope, but it's not bad for either a single-classed character or a non-Bard multiclassed character.

The feature certainly makes it a better choice to pick the non-physical skills for proficiencies, of which the Fighter has actually a fairly good selection (Animal Handling, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Survival). Actually, I just noticed the Fighter has 8 options to pick from, whereas the Wizard only has 6. Huh, how about that.

[silveralen]

I'm AFB, but I thought that was only while using Reckless Attack? Which is decoupled from raging--you can use Reckless Attack, Rage, both, or neither.

No, rage itself applies to advantage to strength ability checks, but not to weapon attacks (which is where reckless attack comes in).

[Kaeso]

I'm not sure if it has been brought up, but perhaps a way to make the champion worthwhile would be to get him as many rolls as he can? After all, each roll gives him an increased chance to roll a crit. So what I imagine would be:

1. Take Twohanded Fighting as your first fighting style. This allows you to reroll and 1 or 2 which is in itself already useful, but also increases the chance of a crit.
2. Go full fighter. More attacks = more crit chance
3. Take a polearm (=two handed) and the polearm master feat. That additional d4 does not look like much until you crit it
4. Get advantage as much as possible, which will most likely involve teaming up with the rogue

Does this sound like a good idea to increase the Champions crit potential? Because this way you're more or less spreading your bets. If so, what are some ways to get advantage on attack rolls other than simply flanking?

[Sartharina]

1. Take Twohanded Fighting as your first fighting style. This allows you to reroll and 1 or 2 which is in itself already useful, but also increases the chance of a crit.Two-handed fighting does not make you crit more. You need advantage to crit more. However... it DOES make your crits more powerful, due to critting increasing damage dice you roll, and benefits more from large weapons.

[AgentPaper]

I'm not sure if it has been brought up, but perhaps a way to make the champion worthwhile would be to get him as many rolls as he can? After all, each roll gives him an increased chance to roll a crit. So what I imagine would be:

1. Take Twohanded Fighting as your first fighting style. This allows you to reroll and 1 or 2 which is in itself already useful, but also increases the chance of a crit.
2. Go full fighter. More attacks = more crit chance
3. Take a polearm (=two handed) and the polearm master feat. That additional d4 does not look like much until you crit it
4. Get advantage as much as possible, which will most likely involve teaming up with the rogue

Does this sound like a good idea to increase the Champions crit potential? Because this way you're more or less spreading your bets. If so, what are some ways to get advantage on attack rolls other than simply flanking?

Additional hits don't help the Champion much, actually, due to the way crit damage works. You only get an extra roll of your damage die, so critting with the polearm off-attack only nets you 2.5 damage on average. Your best bet with a champion is a Great Weapon Fighter with a Greatsword or Maul, which gives you 8.33 extra danage per crit, compared to 4.5 for a dual wielder or duelist with a Longsword or Rapier.

[Galen]

what are some ways to get advantage on attack rolls other than simply flanking?Flanking or otherwise teaming up doesn't give advantage on attack rolls in this edition. It allows a rogue to Sneak-attack, but not advantage.

[Kaeso]

Two-handed fighting does not make you crit more. You need advantage to crit more. However... it DOES make your crits more powerful, due to critting increasing damage dice you roll, and benefits more from large weapons.

What I meant is that being able to reroll a guaranteed miss (a 1 or a 2) gives you another chance to roll, possibly turning that miss into a crit. The way I reasoned is that more rolls = more chances to crit. For the sake of clarity, I was talking about the fighting style a fighter can select, not fighting with a two handed weapon per se.


Additional hits don't help the Champion much, actually, due to the way crit damage works. You only get an extra roll of your damage die, so critting with the polearm off-attack only nets you 2.5 damage on average. Your best bet with a champion is a Great Weapon Fighter with a Greatsword or Maul, which gives you 8.33 extra danage per crit, compared to 4.5 for a dual wielder or duelist with a Longsword or Rapier.

Ah, that's a shame. Good point on the greatswords and mauls then. They don't really increase your chances of critting, but make the crits you do get that much more effective.


Flanking or otherwise teaming up doesn't give advantage on attack rolls in this edition. It allows a rogue to Sneak-attack, but not advantage.

Ack! That sucks. A Champion Fighter needs to look for other ways to get advantage on attack rolls then.

[Galen]

Ack! That sucks. A Champion Fighter needs to look for other ways to get advantage on attack rolls then.
Dipping two levels of Barbarian gives you Reckless Attack, plus a modicum of bonus damage when raging. Of course then you never get the coveted 4th attack, but you do get the Superior Critical.

[Vogonjeltz]

What I meant is that being able to reroll a guaranteed miss (a 1 or a 2) gives you another chance to roll, possibly turning that miss into a crit. The way I reasoned is that more rolls = more chances to crit. For the sake of clarity, I was talking about the fighting style a fighter can select, not fighting with a two handed weapon per se.

That works on damage rolls, not attack rolls.

[Galen]

By the way, sorry I digress, but here's something weird.

Let's say you have both the Dueling and Great Weapon Fighting styles. Only weapon you have right now is a Longsword. To maximize damage output, you need to wield it in one hand. Yes, one-handed wielding not only lets you keep a hand free, it actually deals more damage than two-handed. (1d8+2 is greater than 1d10-reroll-1s-and-2s).

[Sartharina]

What I meant is that being able to reroll a guaranteed miss (a 1 or a 2) gives you another chance to roll, possibly turning that miss into a crit. The way I reasoned is that more rolls = more chances to crit. For the sake of clarity, I was talking about the fighting style a fighter can select, not fighting with a two handed weapon per se.You don't get to reroll attack rolls on a 1 or 2 - only damage rolls.

[Hytheter]

By the way, sorry I digress, but here's something weird.

Let's say you have both the Dueling and Great Weapon Fighting styles. Only weapon you have right now is a Longsword. To maximize damage output, you need to wield it in one hand. Yes, one-handed wielding not only lets you keep a hand free, it actually deals more damage than two-handed. (1d8+2 is greater than 1d10-reroll-1s-and-2s).

Higher minimum, same maximum... not that surprising.

I'm wondering what the actual average on 1d10 reroll 1s and 2s is though. But I'm not sure how to calculate it.

[MaxWilson]

Higher minimum, same maximum... not that surprising.

I'm wondering what the actual average on 1d10 reroll 1s and 2s is though. But I'm not sure how to calculate it.

It's (55 - 1 - 2 + 5.5 + 5.5) / 10, or in other words 6.3.

[Scirocco]

Ritual Caster + Find Familar + Owl + Help Action = Advantage for Champion Fighter.

[Hytheter]

Yeah I eventually did figure it out, but thanks for confirming.

In any case, if you want two handed then you should probably use a Greatsword. But I think we already knew that.

[AgentPaper]

It's actually fairly easy to compare a Battle Master and a Champion directly.

At level 3, the Battle Master deals an extra 4.5 damage four times between each short rest. If you're a TWF or Duelist, this means you need to crit 4 additional times between short rests, on average, to equal a Battle Master in damage. Since you crit an additional 5% of the time, that means that you need to make, on average, 80 attacks between short rests to break even. A GWF has an easier time since their crits do more damage, but they still need to make ~43 attacks to break even.

As you continue to level up the Battle Master pulls ahead, but the increased increased crit chance at 15 helps the Champion get back into the game. Of course, the number of attacks you make each turn also matters a lot here, as does how often you get advantage. Advantage essentially makes one attack count as two for this purpose (not exactly, since you could roll two crits, but close enough). Extra attacks, obviously, allow you to make more attacks and catch up.

Here's a table of how many rounds you need to attack in order to break even at various levels:

LVL Duelist TWF GWF
3 80 40 43
5 40 27 22
7 50 33 27
10 61 41 33
11 41 31 22
15 24 18 13
18 29 22 16
20 22 17 12

As you can see, GWF is the best overall, except for the short period of level 3 and 4 where TWF gets twice as many attacks. If you can reliably get advantage on every single attack, you can effectively cut these numbers in half.

Overall, it's fairly clear that a Champion is going to have a hard time keeping up with a Battle Master on damage added unless you spend a lot of time attacking enemies without resting. Things get better as you level up, but even at level 20, with GWF and advantage on every attack, and blowing both of your Action Surges, you still need at least 4 rounds of attacking just to break even with the extra damage that a Battle master gets. You need to continue attacking after that in order to pull ahead, and at that point you've probably already won or lost the fight anyways and should have plenty of tools to let you rest before you need to exert yourself so much again. Not to mention the Battle Master has Relentless at this point, which means that even if you do face a long string of battles without rest, you'll need another two rounds of attacking (or one with advantage) per combat on top of the normal 12 (6 with advantage).

I won't say that the Champion is useless or a trap option, the Fighter is a very capable character just from his core class abilities, but if you just want to do a lot of damage, Battle master is a much safer bet.