Prestige without casting to advance

[Xuldarinar]

I am aware certain races can qualify for prestige classes that provide casting advancement without technically having an ability to cast spells. In doing so, what do they do with the advancement?

For sake of example: An Aasimar can qualify for eldritch knight by taking a single level in a class that provides proficiency with all martial weapons. So, you could have a Paladin 1/Eldritch Knight x. At 3rd level onwards, what do you do with the spellcasting advancement?

I figure it could be any of these.


You don't have any spellcasting levels to advance, so you gain nothing. Kind of a waste.
You are given spellcasting to advance. Its advancement, but you don't gain other class features of the class you draw casting from.
There is an official ruling floating somewhere that addresses this that is neither of the solutions above, in which case I want to know.

[Xuldarinar]

I have a thought as to how it could work, provided there has not been an official ruling on this. People are welcome to take this as a house rule.


Given the following premise:



The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."

For spell-like abilities gained from a creature's race or type (including PC races), the same rule should apply: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

For spell-like abiities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.

Much the same could apply to advancement.

If the SLA is a sorcerer/wizard spell, then advancement provides sorcerer or wizard casting.

If the SLA isn't a sorcerer/wizard spell but is a cleric spell, advancement should provide cleric or oracle spellcasting.

If the SLA isn't a sorcerer/wizard spell or a cleric spell but is a druid spell, advancement should provide druid spellcasting.

Then to bard, then to paladin, then to ranger. If it is drawn from another spell list and isn't of any those previous, then it provides casting from one of those.

We can look at this the same way if a race possesses Psi-like abilities, though an order would need to be established for class priorities though Psion/wilder would come first. For instance: A psionic duergar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/duergar) has cloud mind as a psi-like ability. Cloud mind is a 2nd level power for a couple of classes, first and foremost for the psion/wilder. So, you could have a duergar wizard 3/cerebrmancer x, the manifesting advancement providing psion or wilder manifesting.

What do you think?

[Orsyn]

Spells per Day
At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an eldritch knight, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Emphasis mine. By RAW, you don't gain anything from this ability if you didn't already have levels in an arcane casting class. It's one of the known drawbacks of using SLAs to qualify for prestige classes. Most, if not all, spell-progessing prestige classes have similar language (Interestingly, though, you could qualify for Dragon Disciple via SLA and use it to progress a prepared casting class).

[Psyren]

I figure it could be any of these.


You don't have any spellcasting levels to advance, so you gain nothing. Kind of a waste.
You are given spellcasting to advance. Its advancement, but you don't gain other class features of the class you draw casting from.
There is an official ruling floating somewhere that addresses this that is neither of the solutions above, in which case I want to know.


As Orsyn cited, if you have spellcasting of the type the PrC advances then you get to advance that. If you don't you get nothing (aside from the other class features of the PrC of course.) It's pretty straightforward.

[grarrrg]

You don't have any spellcasting levels to advance, so you gain nothing. Kind of a waste.


There is nothing to advance, so you gain nothing.
It's in the same category as a Witch/Bladebound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound) multi-class. Just because you "can" do it, does NOT mean you "should" do it.

Of special note is the Spherewalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/spherewalker) PrC which gives you "pity" spell slots if you don't have casting to advance.

If the spherewalker has no levels in a spellcasting class, she instead gains one 1st-level domain spell slot, which she may use to prepare spells from any of their gods domains as if she were a cleric. Her caster level is equal to twice her class level. With each new spherewalker level, she gains a new spell slot for a spell level equal to her class level.

[Xuldarinar]

Normally I would have simply gone with that aspect of the wording but since spell-like abilities are not spells in of themselves, being neither arcane nor divine, but strangely enough count as such for prerequisites, and that most if not all classes that provide casting advancement assume you had casting to begin with, I figured I would ask.

[weckar]

I haven't encountered the problem in Pathfinder yet, but I know 3.5 has a few PrCs that make the issue more evident in that they make no mention of requiring spellcasting at all in their prereqs. (Master of Masks, looking at you)

[grarrrg]

I haven't encountered the problem in Pathfinder yet, but I know 3.5 has a few PrCs that make the issue more evident in that they make no mention of requiring spellcasting at all in their prereqs. (Master of Masks, looking at you)

There are at least 4 that advance casting without requiring it.
Diabolist
Demoniac
Souldrinker
Spherewalker

Diabolist comes the closest to requiring spellcasting, "conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding", but is easily enough met with a UMD check and a scroll.
Spherewalker (as mentioned above) will give you "pity" slots if you don't have casting.

[Psyren]

Normally I would have simply gone with that aspect of the wording but since spell-like abilities are not spells in of themselves, being neither arcane nor divine, but strangely enough count as such for prerequisites, and that most if not all classes that provide casting advancement assume you had casting to begin with, I figured I would ask.

The issue is not really about how SLAs are considered - the issue is that you are looking at two different things.

1) PrC Qualification - this typically requires "able to cast X level spells." SLAs counting as spells matters here (and is allowed.)

2) PrC Advancement - this cares instead about what you are, not how you got in. "Spellcasting class," "arcane spellcasting class" and "divine spellcasting class" are the typical things you see here. Whether SLAs are considered X-level spells doesn't matter here because it is not checking that at all. Instead it is asking "are you a member of an arcane spellcasting class? If so, increase the caster level, spells per day and (sometimes) spells known of that class as though you got another level in it." If you got in with a racial and don't have one of the spellcasting classes it cares about, you get none of those things.