Undeath: Which and why?

[Xuldarinar]

Simply looking for people's opinions. If you could play an undead creature in a campaign. What type of undead would you play, and why?

[Raven777]

Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire).


Contrary to the Lich (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lich), whose ritual is entirely left to the whims of the DM, vampires have clear, unarguable mechanics about becoming one. Find one, command it, ask it to turn you no strings attached, done.
You get to not be a desiccated corpse, which is always a plus in my book. Add Glitterdust (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/glitterdust) for extra sparkling.
You keep your personality and class levels, which is pretty important.
The abilities like at will Gaseous Form or Dominate are really useful.
Your feeding targets can easily recuperate from the ability damage you deal. They can literally sleep it off.
Blowing up in sunlight is elegantly taken care of by a permanent item of Protective Penumbra (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protective-penumbra).
At higher levels, Spellbane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/aroden-s-spellbane) will protect that item against Dispel Magic and Antimagic attempts.
Actually, outright tattoo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation) the thing on your skin, away from sunder attempts.
The Wayfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/wayfinder-standard) + Clear Spindle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/clear-spindle-ioun-stone) resonant power combo takes care of Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead) and Control Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-undead) hazards, preventing clerics and necromancers from ordering you to kill yourself.
Stay away from running water. Now you take baths, not showers.
You may need permission to enter a house, but you certainly do not to set it on fire.

[Spore]

Juju Zombie.

Ressurected by forced unknown retaining all the memories of your previous life while keeping the template simple and most PC feats available. Also you're no "special snowflake" undead, you just have your memories. Are those memories even yours? Why where you brought back? Why are you so good at magic/swordplay/guns/archery?

This and more on the next exciting episode of Dragon Ball Z: "The OTHER way to get Krillin back".

[Xuldarinar]

Way I look at is this:

There are a lot of undead out there. Some can be entered willingly, but most its an affliction that wipes one clean of what they were, hence RHD and nothing else typically. Intelligent, free willed undead are an obvious choice, but that doesn't narrow the list that much. Incorporeal undead present problems simply in how they interact with their environment is different. Its a plus for some, but I prefer not.


I love nightshades, but without any known exception they are too powerful for use in a standard campaign as a PC. The RHD make them problematic, and their size isn't helpful for dungeon crawling.

Im fond of Allip, but they are incorporeal and their abilities make them difficult in a group with sane creatures.

Shadows, also being incorporeal, present some issues. Wraith also present some of the same issues, along with their production of spawn.

Devourers are interesting, but their RHD make them unavailable for play in a lot of campaigns (at least out the gate), and they are only really fully usable in an evil campaign given they need souls to use their SLAs.

Liches, considering what it takes to become one, not for beginning of play unless we were starting high enough.

Graveknights, which could be considered martial equivalent of a lich, shares similar problems.

Ghoul. They are low level and fairly easy to fit in. As murder-hobos it is easy to come upon food, and I would definitely have to take the civilized ghoulishness feat. Still, not my first choice.

[Psyren]

Ghost, hands down. +2 LA, incorporeal, any alignment, channel resistance, you're nearly impossible to kill and you keep all your class features.

[Xuldarinar]

Ghost, hands down. +2 LA, incorporeal, any alignment, channel resistance, you're nearly impossible to kill and you keep all your class features.

What is this LA you speak of?

[OldTrees1]

Lich or Ghost

I like playing undead horde necromancers. They all seem to end up with a reason(not always the same) to be eternal. Lich and Ghost are 2 undead that come back even when completely destroyed. Vampires are too vulnerable in gaseous form.

With Ghosts I get Incorporeality and Flight, with Lich I get a Permanently Paralyzing Touch

[Forrestfire]

For practicality, Necropolitan. (whoops didn't see the PF tag. Otherwise unchanged) If it was a high-level campaign where sequence-breaking dungeons is kosher, then Ghost. For cool points? Lich, all the way.

Especially if I can use the 1e lich's fluff. What's not to love about dead baby puree?

[Extra Anchovies]

Ghost, hands down. +2 LA, incorporeal, any alignment, channel resistance, you're nearly impossible to kill and you keep all your class features.

Definitely in agreement with you here. Being a ghost would be fun.

[Raven777]

For practicality, Necropolitan. (whoops didn't see the PF tag. Otherwise unchanged)

Wouldn't the Juju Zombie be Pathfinder's poor man Necropolitan?

[Rater202]

...It's a toss up between Vampire Lord(I'll home brew up a pathfinder version m'self if it doesn't already exist) and a Ghost with the purpose of "Being Not Dead"

[copycatcat]

...It's a toss up between Vampire Lord(I'll home brew up a pathfinder version m'self if it doesn't already exist) and a Ghost with the purpose of "Being Not Dead"

Well, there's no "Vampire Lord," but there is an "Undead Lord," which is quite awesome.

[Milo v3]

Well, there's no "Vampire Lord," but there is an "Undead Lord," which is quite awesome.

But you can't have a vampire undead lord because it's an inherited template, which is quite stupid.

[copycatcat]

But you can't have a vampire undead lord because it's an inherited template, which is quite stupid.

:smalleek::smallsigh:

..wow. And because all undead creatures effectively have an acquired template..

that template doesn't exist. A DM who won't let you houserule that away is saying 'I don't want this in my campaign.' Which is probably reasonable anyway. Infinite spawn potential...

[OldTrees1]

But you can't have a vampire undead lord because it's an inherited template, which is quite stupid.

Even more stupid is that a single Vampire Undead Lord does exist according to the template despite it being impossible.

[Thillidan]

Don't allow Undead. Makes the campaign restirctive, and means the party can't have a healer or paladin properly...

Clerics can only take Heal OR Inflict spells, not both. If you read the rules, they cannot have both. Thus you cannot have a party healer...

[Milo v3]

Don't allow Undead. Makes the campaign restirctive, and means the party can't have a healer or paladin properly...

Clerics can only take Heal OR Inflict spells, not both. If you read the rules, they cannot have both. Thus you cannot have a party healer...

They can take both, they just can't spontaneously cast both.

[OldTrees1]

Well, they can spontaneously heal both in 3.P.
In fact if the healer is a lich then they can heal both in Pure Pathfinder (touch attack to heal undead, cure spell to heal the living)

[Oneris]

Don't allow Undead. Makes the campaign restirctive, and means the party can't have a healer or paladin properly...

Clerics can only take Heal OR Inflict spells, not both. If you read the rules, they cannot have both. Thus you cannot have a party healer...

Versatile Channeler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/versatile-channeler) takes care of that problem for you. Channel positive to heal living or hurt undead (excluding self), Channel Negative to hurt living or heal undead (including self).
Selective Channeling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/selective-channeling---final) only makes it easier.

[Sayt]

Graveknight is pretty good. Decent stat bonuses, good bonus feats, free elemental damage, 1/hour Mount, and irritatingly hard to make properly dead.

[Extra Anchovies]

Graveknight is pretty good. Decent stat bonuses, good bonus feats, free elemental damage, 1/hour Mount, and irritatingly hard to make properly dead.

Oooh, now that you've directed my attention to that template it does look rather nice. It doesn't actually specify what sort of armor the graveknight is bonded to (it keeps implying full plate, but never lists it as a requirement), so presumably you could be bound to your chain shirt :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Skeleton, hands down. They look rad and they avoid both the pretentiousness of Lich and the hackneyed nature of vampires. It's just a regular, down-to-earth, working man's undead. They're also much cleaner than zombies and make better house-guests than ghouls.

Leave your cares behind and become a skeleton today

[Erik Vale]

Liche or Graveknight.
Sculpt Corpse to look how I desire and to deal with the whole 'decomposed' thing.

If I need to, Skeleton lord, again, Sculpt Corpse to interact with the living. Bonus points for true seeing not revealing my true form.

Edit: OR, since I'm already evil, I decide to turn into a demon instead.

[Sayt]

Oooh, now that you've directed my attention to that template it does look rather nice. It doesn't actually specify what sort of armor the graveknight is bonded to (it keeps implying full plate, but never lists it as a requirement), so presumably you could be bound to your chain shirt :smallbiggrin:

Generally speaking, I think the template calls for any heavy armour.

But with Mirthal O-Yoroi that can be +4 max dex, which is generally enough.

[Dasgovernator]

If you're willing to dabble with 3rd party stuff (Specifically Frog God Games), Bleeding Horror is pretty fun. "Heal 100% of the melee damage you do, up to your theoretical max HP" is very nice, along with a +8 to CHA and Con damage on successful natural attacks that also rise your fallen enemies as Bleeding Horrors under your control. You're also technically allowed to be any alignment, which leads to the amusing possibility of being a LG Paladin that also happens to be a perpetually-bleeding skeleton with an "unquenchable thirst for blood".

You get it by literally feeding your blood into a CL20 Magical Axe until you run out of constitution.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/bleeding-horror-cr-3-tohc

[enderlord99]

There's one I came up with called the Triplescarred. It's setting specific, and not actually printed anywhere, but having (fluffwise) thrice the arcane potential you had when alive is a pretty big deal, especially since you get to keep all of the skill you had with that power.

That said, having runes of power burnt into your flesh via magic would likely hurt quite a bit (though not as much as if you were alive at the time) as would having runes of power carved into your bones via magic, and especially having runes of power etched into your soul via magic. But it's totally worth it!:smallcool:

IRN: Is this thread an okay place to describe a few types of undead I invented called the "Runescarred" and the "Tripplescarred?"

[Necroticplague]

Definitely Ghost. PFs changes made it so being undead is a lot easier (since CHA now acts as an all-purpose substitute for CON), though they give up some of the awesomeness that is Etherealism. A better chunk of the abilities scale with my level, I can focus everything on two stats (CHA and DEX), I can get around incorporeal via various methods (Malevolence, Telekinesis, Reinvigoration, Vehemence).

[Scarlet-Devil]

...It's a toss up between Vampire Lord(I'll home brew up a pathfinder version m'self if it doesn't already exist) and a Ghost with the purpose of "Being Not Dead"

There's sort of a Pathfinder equivalent already, called Dread Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/dread-vampire-cr-3), although it is 3rd party. It's not quite as powerful as Vampire Lord, but it is stronger than a normal vampire and less vulnerable to all the usual weaknesses.

[Ettina]

Don't allow Undead. Makes the campaign restirctive, and means the party can't have a healer or paladin properly...

Clerics can only take Heal OR Inflict spells, not both. If you read the rules, they cannot have both. Thus you cannot have a party healer...

Why must all healing be done by one guy?

Have a cleric who gets cure spells, and a wizard or another cleric who uses inflict spells. The guy with inflict spells mostly acts as a damage-dealer, with a side bonus of healing the undead guy.

Otherwise, get an undead who's good at healing himself. Most undead with draining abilities gain hp (or at least temporary hp). And intelligent undead heal from resting, and I doubt anyone's looking to play a mindless PC.

[(Un)Inspired]

Wait, Clerics can't cast both Cure and Inflict spells? Are you sure that's correct...

EDIT: wait, what cleric actually casts cure spells? why not use wants of lesser vigor?

[Sayt]

Don't allow Undead. Makes the campaign restirctive, and means the party can't have a healer or paladin properly...

Clerics can only take Heal OR Inflict spells, not both. If you read the rules, they cannot have both. Thus you cannot have a party healer...

No, Clerics can only spontaneously cast Cure or Inflict spells. A cleric that cures spontaneously can still prepare Inflicts. And likewise vice versa.


Wait, Clerics can't cast both Cure and Inflict spells? Are you sure that's correct...

EDIT: wait, what cleric actually casts cure spells? why not use wants of lesser vigor?

Ones in Pathfinder, that don't have access to Lesser/Greater/Vigor

[Forrestfire]

There's infernal healing, though. Shouldn't be an issue.

[Komatik]

Vampire, what else? :D
Custom template probably though. But vampires rock. As long as they don't sparkle in the daylight.

I hate the vampire lord template because while it removes a lot of the stupid restrictions on freedom of action and has that lovely "never truly gone <3" bit it also comes with pretty ludicrous abilities - dominate with voice alone? wut. Tons of big numbers thrown around, too, in an attempt to fix the +7 LA of the 3.5 template. I'd rather focus on the interesting parts of the template, not huge numbers or turning abilities to 11 a few times over.

[Judge_Worm]

Thrice Evolved Undead Demilich Great Wyrm Red Dragon Dracolich
Yes, just a single dragonscale, you'd never expect it to be so terrifying would you?

Seriously, I like ghosts. No alignment nonsense, and you still get to play the same character. Gains- Incorporeal and d12 HD, Loses-Str and Con

[Xuldarinar]

Thrice Evolved Undead Demilich Great Wyrm Red Dragon Dracolich
Yes, just a single dragonscale, you'd never expect it to be so terrifying would you?

Seriously, I like ghosts. No alignment nonsense, and you still get to play the same character. Gains- Incorporeal and d12 HD, Loses-Str and Con

d8. Not d12.

[Raven777]

Don't allow Undead. Makes the campaign restirctive, and means the party can't have a healer or paladin properly...

Clerics can only take Heal OR Inflict spells, not both. If you read the rules, they cannot have both. Thus you cannot have a party healer...

And these are a problem because...?

More seriously: how do you carry stuff around as a Ghost? Equipment has always seemed to me to be the issue with incorporeal critters.

[atemu1234]

Thrice Evolved Undead Demilich Great Wyrm Red Dragon Dracolich
Yes, just a single dragonscale, you'd never expect it to be so terrifying would you?

Seriously, I like ghosts. No alignment nonsense, and you still get to play the same character. Gains- Incorporeal and d12 HD, Loses-Str and Con

Making this now, BRB.

[Xuldarinar]

And these are a problem because...?

More seriously: how do you carry stuff around as a Ghost? Equipment has always seemed to me to be the issue with incorporeal critters.

Though it requires one go to 3.5 content, ghostly grasp (http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-undead--71/ghostly-grasp--1214/) works quite well.

Purely pathfinder, I think the answer simply is you cannot actually carry it around.

[Milo v3]

More seriously: how do you carry stuff around as a Ghost? Equipment has always seemed to me to be the issue with incorporeal critters.

Ghost touch gauntlets?

[Spore]

There's infernal healing, though. Shouldn't be an issue.

It's an evil spell. As far as I know thatis an issue for good clerics. ^^

[Forrestfire]

Have the wizard/bard/summoner/other cast it, or get a wand for the them to use, then. The cleric being the sole healbot is a fairly antiquated idea anyway.

[Necroticplague]

And these are a problem because...?

More seriously: how do you carry stuff around as a Ghost? Equipment has always seemed to me to be the issue with incorporeal critters.

In pathfinder, they have about 3 different ways to have your ghost possess things, which can then wear the equipment. Long as your party can remember which piece of furniture/corpse/former enemy is you, just use downtime to move the items from your previous body to the new one.

[Psyren]

More seriously: how do you carry stuff around as a Ghost? Equipment has always seemed to me to be the issue with incorporeal critters.

Depending on when you get "ghosted" it may not be an issue:

"When a ghost is created, it retains incorporeal “copies” of any items that it particularly valued in life (provided the originals are not in another creature's possession). The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures."

[OldTrees1]

Depending on when you get "ghosted" it may not be an issue:

"When a ghost is created, it retains incorporeal “copies” of any items that it particularly valued in life (provided the originals are not in another creature's possession). The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures."

Interestingly this quotation indicates that the items did not need to be equipped at the time of death.

[Psyren]

Interestingly this quotation indicates that the items did not need to be equipped at the time of death.

Yep - you just have to own and "value" them. So amass your fortune as much as possible prior to snuffing it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yep - you just have to own and "value" them. So amass your fortune as much as possible prior to snuffing it.

So you can take it with you, after all!

[Raven777]

Skeleton, hands down. They look rad and they avoid both the pretentiousness of Lich and the hackneyed nature of vampires. It's just a regular, down-to-earth, working man's undead. They're also much cleaner than zombies and make better house-guests than ghouls.

Leave your cares behind and become a skeleton today

You know what? I'll go with you on that. PF has the hilarious Skeletal Champion (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/skeletalChampion.html) template, which you can easily whip up through Create Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead), which lets you be a skeleton on top of your class levels, for the low low adjustment of oh wait it actually halves your CR. CR 10 20th level Skeleton Wizard here I come.

[copycatcat]

..skeletal champions of 0-HD races are CR 1. So you can only get one free level. So you got the template free, but that's all.

EDIT: Ignore me, just realized it used all HD for determining CR.

[Judge_Worm]

d8. Not d12.

Oh yes, I forgot PF changed that. Either way, still flying.

[Psyren]

You know what? I'll go with you on that. PF has the hilarious Skeletal Champion (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/skeletalChampion.html) template, which you can easily whip up through Create Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead), which lets you be a skeleton on top of your class levels, for the low low adjustment of oh wait it actually halves your CR. CR 10 20th level Skeleton Wizard here I come.

That table is very likely only referring to RHD, since those are the HD regular skeletons care about too. No sane DM would really consider a level 20 PC class to be CR 9, not even a monk.

[Raven777]

That is merely the hilarious part. The actual template's still pretty sweet.

[copycatcat]

Yeah, it's something that will instantly go on lots o' my followers the instant a GM allows both it and Leadership.

[Erik Vale]

[QUOTE=Ettina;18384843]Why must all healing be done by one guy?

Have a cleric who gets cure spells, and a wizard or another cleric who uses inflict spells. The guy with inflict spells mostly acts as a damage-dealer, with a side bonus of healing the undead guy./QUOTE]

Or a wizard/sorcerer with Infernal Healing

[Xuldarinar]

Anyone else want to throw in their opinion, or question the logic of having undead creatures in the campaign from the standpoint of healing as we seemed to turned down?

[Raven777]

Considering that effective healing is mostly within the purview of wands and potions after combat is done, I hardly see the problem. The dedicated party healer is a RPG trope that does not really hold in D&D. A Cleric's best option is to buff up and lay down the smack, not waste turns running after PCs to cast touch range Cure spells. The biggest mechanical downside to having Undead and Dhampirs in a group is the Cleric accidentally blowing them up with Channel Energy, but that's it.