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Aximili
2007-03-22, 02:33 PM
This one has bugged me for quite some time.




Suggestion (Sp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities))
A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) skill can make a suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#fascinate). Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) against the fascinate effect.
Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex) (DC 10 + bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#massSuggestion), below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability.
So, does this mean the bard can keep using one suggestion/round on the fascinated creature at absolutely no cost until the fascination wears off?
And then he can fascinate again (since we all know the will save is impossible) and do it all over again?

A mid level bard could easiliy suggest anyone into anything like this. Just repeating the suggestion until the guy rolls a 1.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-22, 03:18 PM
A mid level bard could easiliy suggest anyone into anything like this. Just repeating the suggestion until the guy rolls a 1.
Well, first the victim has to be fascinated, and, unlike the suggestion, the bard cannot retry a fascinate effect until 24 hours after a failed attempt. So people with tough Will saves can still prove a problem. (Though, of course the DC, being based on skill ranks does scale more quickly than even a cleric's Will save. So take from that what you will.)

Second, the Fascination lasts only 1 round per bard level. That might not buy the bard enough retries for the victim to fail the save.

Third, the suggestion must fall in line with the requirements of the spell suggestion. In other words, the suggestion must sound reasonable and cannot be obviously harmful. So you cannot suggest "anything."

Fourth, the effect is a mind-affecting, language-dependant enchantment (compulsion). Anyone that is immune to any of those categories of effects or does not share a language with you cannot be affected by your suggestion, so you cannot make a suggestion to "anyone" either.

ocato
2007-03-22, 03:18 PM
True, but the limiting factors on both fascinate and suggestion keep this from being too terrible.

Person_Man
2007-03-22, 03:27 PM
It's quite easy for a Bard to boost their Perform rank to sky high levels, and almost always win on a Fascinate check, and then win on a Suggestion check. But as Shhalahr points out, there are a ton of things immune to it, and Suggestion doesn't allow any "obviously harmful" acts, like Dominate.

So at best, a well optimized Bard can prevent combat or get around most roleplaying encounters, assuming the encounter isn't with any of the many categories of things immune to it.

Aximili
2007-03-22, 03:34 PM
Ok, anyone to anything was an exageration.
But you can still suggest guys waaay higher leveled than you, even those with good will saves.

a 10th level bard can easily have a bonus higher than +32 to his perform check. Being an avarage 42 DC even a 20th level caster is not sure to save against his fascinate. If you take a 15th level non cleric/druid, he'll only save with a natural 20.

Since he can fascinate 10 times per day for 10 rounds, he can try 90 suggestions (given the first round is spent activating).

ocato
2007-03-22, 03:37 PM
90 attempts at 6 seconds an attempt is probably long enough where someone would notice a "Do it!" "No!" arguement and put the bard in a situation.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-22, 03:44 PM
Oh, yeah, that's another point I forgot to mention: Outside interference. Bardic music isn't exactly inconspicuous. You are, after all, performing. Outside observers may have motive to interfere. So you also have to do something about that. The difficulty of that step, of course, varies with the situation.

brian c
2007-03-22, 03:55 PM
According to the 3.5 FAQ, a creature under the effect of a Bard's Fascinate ability can be suggested by the Bard an indefinite number of times.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-22, 03:55 PM
a 10th level bard can easily have a bonus higher than +32 to his perform check. Being an avarage 42 DC even a 20th level caster is not sure to save against his fascinate. If you take a 15th level non cleric/druid, he'll only save with a natural 20.

Emphasis mine.

A 20th level caster will never make the save against fascinate. He'll never make it because he'll never need to. Most characters, even NPCs, at that level have defenses in place to make sure that it's not that easy to manipulate them with magical compulsion effects. Even fighters and low will save types are going to have something in place to prevent it. Bear in mind that this really shouldn't exist in a vacuum.

Bard: *sings*
20th level Wizard: "That's very pretty."
Bard: "Good, now, don't you want to help out the party? With a wish spell, perhaps?"
Wizard: *The wizard permanencied Arcane Sight on himself 6 levels ago and has a mind-blanking item.* "You just... you just tried to use suggestion magic on me! You slimy little..."
Bard: "Uh-oh. Um, listen - this is all a horrible misunde-"
Wizard: "METEOR SWARM!!!"

So the bard abuses the move at his own risk. Remember that lots of things at higher levels, not just 20th level casters, have high spellcraft checks and solid willsaves/SR/immunities. Most of them don't like people trying to trick them.

NullAshton
2007-03-22, 03:57 PM
Um... I believe all of you are wrong. I clearly read up there that the DC is 10 plus half the bards level plus Charisma. I don't see any mention of it being skill based, except the perform requirement.Where do you get a DC of 42?

Aquillion
2007-03-22, 03:57 PM
Don't forget the big limitations on fascinate:


The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working.

...

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.Also remember that all suggestions must be worded so as to sound reasonable. It's a very useful ability in civilized environments, to be sure, but hardly overpowering, and useless in combat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-22, 04:00 PM
Um... I believe all of you are wrong. I clearly read up there that the DC is 10 plus half the bards level plus Charisma. I don't see any mention of it being skill based, except the perform requirement.Where do you get a DC of 42?

The DC for the Fascinate is based on the Perform check, not the Suggestion.

Aximili
2007-03-22, 05:44 PM
Ok then, I guess I'm the only one who was surprised at this. :P
well... hooray for the bard. ^^

its_all_ogre
2007-03-22, 06:02 PM
yes this is the most ignored ability of the bard and pretty damn potent.

unfortunately not quite enough to make him worth playing though!
i'm off to make an evil bbeg bard now!

ocato
2007-03-22, 06:29 PM
Evil bards are fairly interesting in concept. Especially the "use spells to swindle people out of their money" sort and the "High manipulator" sort. I think the funniest thing ever was the bard vs bard both countersonging each other. Then one of them finally realized they weren't really stopping the other from doing anything and proceeded to sissy slap each other with their rapiers.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-23, 07:11 AM
As a DM I wouldn't allow you to fascinate someone the moment he came out of it ... I'd say he becomes aware of what you were doing to him and considers you a threat on the spot.

Sir Giacomo
2007-03-23, 07:21 AM
As a DM I wouldn't allow you to fascinate someone the moment he came out of it ... I'd say he becomes aware of what you were doing to him and considers you a threat on the spot.

Hmm, yes, as far as I recall there where quite a few arguments on that already (guess also in the core battle). The point is: if a guy with a rapier (not drawn) is singing a nice song (and his fellow team does not behave threateningly), will a wary creature still have to save vs the fascinate-sky-high-DC?

I would say: yes. Because, otherwise the fascinate ability is near useless. It is meant to compel someone to do something they would not otherwise do (a sentry sitting down and listening is simply not doing his job. He should be wary of attempts to distract him). If a fascinate does not work vs hostile creatures, the bard should then simply use diplomacy instead (since in that skill there is nothing written that prevents using it when the opponent feels threatened, it simply raises the DC).

The inifinite suggestion ability is quite powerful (the bard may be the most underestimated class in DD), but subject to the many drawbacks already outlined above. But can't wait to get Requiem for my bard to use it on a lich...

- Giacomo

its_all_ogre
2007-03-23, 07:24 AM
an evil bard can get to some nice PRc classes too. shadow dancer, assassin and loads in comp adventurer

PinkysBrain
2007-03-23, 07:38 AM
I'd allow it unless the NPC was expecting trouble from you (even then you might be able bluff him into a false sense of security). If he didn't observe anything untoward during his fascination and you didn't try to suggestion him I'd probably make him roll a wisdom check to notice he had been fascinated and allow him to be further fascinated if he failed.

Nothing about fascinate says that you forget what happened while fascinated though ... trying to suggestion him is effectively an attack even if it doesn't break the fascinate effect, and he will remember it.

The only realistic way to save against fascinate when it can be used is with natural 20 or immunity to mind affecting or sonic effects ... I don't care if it makes it useless or not, I'm not going to let every encounter in which the bard's side win's initiative be started in that way. If a player felt very strongly about it I'd play by his rules for one session, after I think he'd agree with me. If not him, then the rest of the party for certain ... I doubt they would much like the roving band of bard highway men with boosted initiative.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-23, 07:43 AM
Nothing about fascinate says that you forget what happened while fascinated though ... trying to suggestion him is effectively an attack even if it doesn't break the fascinate effect, and he will remember it.

Unless you subsequently succeed and suggest that he forget about it. :smalltongue:

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 09:01 AM
Hmm, yes, as far as I recall there where quite a few arguments on that already (guess also in the core battle). The point is: if a guy with a rapier (not drawn) is singing a nice song (and his fellow team does not behave threateningly), will a wary creature still have to save vs the fascinate-sky-high-DC?

I would say: yes. Because, otherwise the fascinate ability is near useless. It is meant to compel someone to do something they would not otherwise do (a sentry sitting down and listening is simply not doing his job. He should be wary of attempts to distract him). If a fascinate does not work vs hostile creatures, the bard should then simply use diplomacy instead (since in that skill there is nothing written that prevents using it when the opponent feels threatened, it simply raises the DC).

Giacomo, I do believe PinkysBrain was saying he wouldn't allow a bard to fascinate someone, have the fascinate run its duration, and then fascinate them again - that having been fascinated once, the target is aware of what the bard's up to and won't fall for it a second time.

I'm not sure that's reasonable or fair, but I don't believe he's suggesting you be effectively unable to fascinate anyone.

Aximili
2007-03-23, 05:49 PM
As a DM I wouldn't allow you to fascinate someone the moment he came out of it ... I'd say he becomes aware of what you were doing to him and considers you a threat on the spot.
That sounds a little metagame to me. When you fascinate someone, he is simply (guess what) fascinated by your music. There's absolutely no sense in him becoming suspicious of you once the song is over.

Actually, it would be more likely for him to become more friendly towards you. After all, that was really a fascinating song.:smallwink:

ocato
2007-03-23, 09:49 PM
I'm bound to agree. If he succeeds the will save, he realized the song was magically trying to alter his perception and make him sit pretty. If the save fails, it was just a song that was so lovely he couldn't help but sit and listen (we've all heard a song like that at least once). So the person might go "that was lovely, but I'm supposed to be on guard duty, what're you doing here friend?" where the bard might take advantage of his new demeanor to lay down another tune. If the bard failed to suggest something, the person fascinated might come out of the song a little miffed. "I loved your tune but what was that business about me leaving my post? What're you doing here anyway?"

My 2cp

Aximili
2007-03-23, 10:00 PM
Well, since we're talking about suggestions anyway...

How does the bard's suggestion really work? He actually has to say the suggestion in the middle of the song and pray that no one's gonna notice the sudden change in lyrics? Or can he work the suggestion into the performance?

PinkysBrain
2007-03-24, 07:57 AM
That sounds a little metagame to me. When you fascinate someone, he is simply (guess what) fascinated by your music. There's absolutely no sense in him becoming suspicious of you once the song is over.
Even when you are doing nothing you are generally doing something ... sitting there motion less is strange in and of itself. It's more meta gaming to suppose no one knows about how fascinate works than to suppose people know how it works, and can suspect being a victim of it, it exists in the world after all. There are thousands of bards around the world able to pull off that low level effect. As I said later, it would probably come down to a wisdom check if nothing else happened during the fascination. But how often would you try to fascinate someone without trying to pull something off during the fascination? This is a largely theoretical discussion.

The suggestion works "as the spell", you have to tell him ad verbatim what he is going to do. That's a little too personal for him to believe it was part of the song. Also : "A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack."

Saying that when you save against the suggestion you don't notice it isn't only silly, it's also a houserule :)

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-24, 08:09 AM
Well, since we're talking about suggestions anyway...

How does the bard's suggestion really work? He actually has to say the suggestion in the middle of the song and pray that no one's gonna notice the sudden change in lyrics? Or can he work the suggestion into the performance?

I think he's meant to work it into the performance. To suggest that the watchman return home to his wife and children, for instance, the bard may recite a poem about returning to one's home to visit your family.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-24, 08:12 AM
You can houserule it however you want ... but it works as the spell. You suggest a course of action, you don't throw metaphors at him. You can do it in rhyme, but you are going to have more trouble framing the suggestion (you only have 2 sentences to work with).

Aximili
2007-03-25, 08:24 PM
Even when you are doing nothing you are generally doing something ... sitting there motion less is strange in and of itself. It's more meta gaming to suppose no one knows about how fascinate works than to suppose people know how it works, and can suspect being a victim of it, it exists in the world after all. There are thousands of bards around the world able to pull off that low level effect. As I said later, it would probably come down to a wisdom check if nothing else happened during the fascination. But how often would you try to fascinate someone without trying to pull something off during the fascination? This is a largely theoretical discussion.
I don't know... You simply get taken away by the music. It's 100% reasonable for a person to get distracted by a good song for a minute or so. It's not even an entire music.
It's the equivalent of glancing at the CD player (while playing cards), thinking: "wow, that's a nice solo", and waiting until it finishes to continue your game. How could you tell the diference between supernatural fascination and regular fascination?

edit:
Even when you are doing nothing you are generally doing something ...Why? Haven't you ever just listened to music, without doing anything else?

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 08:35 PM
Except in retrospect you know just how the music sounded and if it were something you would normally be so fascinated with ... in general it won't be.

Aximili
2007-03-25, 08:49 PM
Except in retrospect you know just how the music sounded and if it were something you would normally be so fascinated with ... in general it won't be.
Usually, when a song is over, you go back to your business (or you listen again if it's possible), you don't stop to think why you liked it.

But anyway, even if you do stop to question it, you might get suspicious about the level 1 bard. But when the mid-level bard rolls a 50 with his perform check, it's something everyone would be normally fascinated with.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-25, 08:57 PM
Usually, when a song is over, you go back to your business (or you listen again if it's possible), you don't stop to think why you liked it.If it's good enough to make me stop what I was doing I tend to reflect on it a bit ...

But anyway, even if you do stop to question it, you might get suspicious about the level 1 bard. But when the mid-level bard rolls a 50 with his perform check, it's something everyone would be normally fascinated with.There's a lot of really good musicians I wouldn't voluntarily listen to. No accounting for taste. Anyway, this basically admits defeat on your part and gets into the realm of setting DCs for the wisdom check ;)

Aximili
2007-03-25, 09:36 PM
Well, this really reminds me of the Charm Person effect. Once it's over, you might even stop and question your former judgement, but realising it was a magical influence is a whole other deal. (I remember they said this in Ask Wizards once)