How does one build a Chameleon?

[Orsyn]

My newest venture has me creating a level 9 character, and, me being me, I had no idea what to play, so I decided to play everything! I've decided on Factotum 5/Warblade 1/Chameleon 3, and...that's about it, really. Having never built a factotum or chameleon, I'm not really sure what the best place to take the build would be. I figure on progressing Chameleon, but then what? I haven't even a vague hint of what feats to take, barring Font of Inspiration for some extra Factotum use. My primary focus will be as a skill monkey, but ideally with enough versatility to pitch in as a fifth wheel.

This is also my first venture back into 3.5 since my group's migration to Pathfinder, so I'm admittedly still slightly dazed by the sheer volume of options.

[Venger]

factotum 5 is the best entry. why did you dip warblade1? are you planning to take some more warblade lvls later on?

due to the way initiating works, you want to time your warblade dip when your total IL is equal to 7 or more so you can start picking up 4ths with your first known warblade maneuvers, meaning you'd go factotum5/chameleon2/warblade 1/chameleon 3 in order to be able to pick the highest possible lvl maneuvers.

the chameleon handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.0) is extremely helpful in answering basic questions and provides some direction for almost anything you might want to do later on.

[darksolitaire]

IMO there's two main features to Chameleon; the floating feat at the second level, and the spellcasting. A Chameleon can acquire spells from any divine or arcane spellcasting class. This includes stuff like Haste at level 1 or Polar Ray at level 5. It gets more powerful the more you get spells from splat books.

After Chameleon, you could just go for more Factotum, or take more levels as Warblade. Factorum 8 is very good, that gets you cunning surge. Since you add half of the level of your other class levels to your initiator level, you can take higher level maneuvers. Too bad that second level of Warblade is just lackluster at high level build.

[(Un)Inspired]

I like Factotum 1/Ardent 4/ Chameleon 10/Ardent 5.

It lets you pick up 9th level powers and you get just a touch of factotuming that you may or may not want to FoI into being useful.

You want high Int and Wis but as always Chameleon helps loads when it comes to the muh-muh-muh-muh-muh-MADness.

[Venger]

I like Factotum 1/Ardent 4/ Chameleon 10/Ardent 5.

It lets you pick up 9th level powers and you get just a touch of factotuming that you may or may not want to FoI into being useful.

how do you get 9th lvl powers with only 9 levels of ardent?

[(Un)Inspired]

Practiced spellcaster and practiced manifested will do it at level 20 but other ML and CL boosters will get you there faster.

[Venger]

Practiced spellcaster and practiced manifested will do it at level 20 but other ML and CL boosters will get you there faster.

Huh? Okay, so you take practiced manifester (ardent) at some point, ultimately ending up with ML13

how do you get practiced spellcaster to count for a non-spellcasting class?

[(Un)Inspired]

Huh? Okay, so you take practiced manifester (ardent) at some point, ultimately ending up with ML13

how do you get practiced spellcaster to count for a non-spellcasting class?

The magic mantle

[Venger]

The magic mantle

thanks for clearing that up. seems pretty legit, though alone, as you said it only boosts ML to 17 at 20, but it's possible to tweak it higher a little earlier.

[(Un)Inspired]

thanks for clearing that up. seems pretty legit, though alone, as you said it only boosts ML to 17 at 20, but it's possible to tweak it higher a little earlier.


No problem. I would have posted a quote but I'm AFB posting on my phone right now.

On its own you barely end up with a 9th for psionics but of course there are other CL boosters put there.

[Venger]

No problem. I would have posted a quote but I'm AFB posting on my phone right now.

On its own you barely end up with a 9th for psionics but of course there are other CL boosters put there.

don't worry about it, when you mentioned what to check, I just looked it up myself.

yeah. it's a neat idea though.

[(Un)Inspired]

I like this build as a psionic grappler that uses telekinetic maneuver, twin power, schism, celerity, linked power and solicit psicrystal to grapple as many enemies as possible at once. It's fun having celerity and favor of the martyr together on one build even if it's pretty cheesy.

[Venger]

I like this build as a psionic grappler that uses telekinetic maneuver, twin power, schism, celerity, linked power and solicit psicrystal to grapple as many enemies as possible at once. It's fun having celerity and favor of the martyr together on one build even if it's pretty cheesy.

that's a clever idea.

when I roll chameleon, I usually end up prioritizing int for various reasons (money, more arcane spells allow saves, there are more so a higher bonus is more important, skillpoints, etc) and end up using the bulk of my divine slots for either buffs, like bite of the werex or BFC/stuff without saves

honestly, nothing involving chameleon's too cheesy. they just aren't powerful enough. I find it's a handy way to handicap oneself when playing with a less experienced group.

[(Un)Inspired]

that's a clever idea.

when I roll chameleon, I usually end up prioritizing int for various reasons (money, more arcane spells allow saves, there are more so a higher bonus is more important, skillpoints, etc) and end up using the bulk of my divine slots for either buffs, like bite of the werex or BFC/stuff without saves

honestly, nothing involving chameleon's too cheesy. they just aren't powerful enough. I find it's a handy way to handicap oneself when playing with a less experienced group.

You're probably right I just never feel totally wholesome when I escape celeritys daze.

You make a good point about int. If you really need your wisdom higher for save DCs then you could always drop an Owls Insight.

[Chronos]

Font of Inspiration probably won't be worthwhile without Cunning Surge. Remember that your inspiration refreshes every encounter anyway, and not everything you do will be burning inspiration points.

If you do take one or more Warblade levels after you start Chameleon, remember that you only need to meet prerequisites for maneuvers at the time you take them: If you later lose a prerequisite, there's no penalty. So you can use your floating feat on Martial Study to help meet a prereq, and then change it to something else.

At higher levels of chameleon, you can effectively use three ability focuses at once. Start the day with arcane/divine, spend all of your divine spell slots on all-day buffs, and then switch to arcane/something else.

[Heliomance]

factotum 5 is the best entry. why did you dip warblade1? are you planning to take some more warblade lvls later on?

due to the way initiating works, you want to time your warblade dip when your total IL is equal to 7 or more so you can start picking up 4ths with your first known warblade maneuvers, meaning you'd go factotum5/chameleon2/warblade 1/chameleon 3 in order to be able to pick the highest possible lvl maneuvers.


Huh? Factotum 5/Chameleon 2/Warblade 1 has an IL of 4, not 7, and I'm pretty certain that all the 4th level maneuvers have "x maneuvers known" prereqs, so you can't pick them up immediately anyway.

[Venger]

Huh? Factotum 5/Chameleon 2/Warblade 1 has an IL of 4, not 7, and I'm pretty certain that all the 4th level maneuvers have "x maneuvers known" prereqs, so you can't pick them up immediately anyway.

wow I failed pretty hard there. I shouldn't post so late:

you are of course right. What I meant to say was:

factotum5/chameleon3/warblade 1 to get an IL of 5, enabling you to start picking 3rds.

while most 4ths have prereqs, there are a few that do not, but that's more or less moot, since most 3s are better anyway.

[The Viscount]

Is there a reason this build uses ardent and not a different psionic class with the Tap and Don Mantle feats?

[(Un)Inspired]

I use ardent because they are extremely multiclass-friendly when it come to learning powers.

They can learn powers based on their manifested level not just their class level.

[.Zero]

A tricky question about the magic mantles ultra transparency.

So you are X1/Ardent4/Chameleon10/Y5 with the substitute powers acf.

If that Practiced Spellcaster + Practiced Manifester trick is doable, could we think that, per the magic mantle, any way to raise your caster level also raises your manifester level? If this is true, then what happens when you cast consumptive field? Does it raise both cl and ml?

Things are gettin' more and more tricky now, because as long as your ml is just 4, you can manifest 2nd level powers only, which you get to choose from your own customized mantles (i assume DM is totally ok with you when you design your mantles). But when you suddenly increase in ml, you suddenly know new powers from your mantles. And that's just fine. But when consumptive field expires, i imagine that your powers known will vanish too. But the next day you cast consumptive field again and you'll get to know new powers again, from that small list that are your four mantles.
If that's true, it's really cool, because it creates a "prepared manifester" because you know and forget powers each day, although you only get to choose from a small list.

Does this make any sense at all?

[(Un)Inspired]

You still only learn powers when you level up.


Now if you activated consumptive field then a linked power psychic reformation...

[Milodiah]

I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're my new player given the unlikelihood of some other person asking for a level 9 Chameleon build within four days of it coming up with our group.

I'm personally not a fan of Factotum, and it's actually the only class I've outright banned (excepting psionics, but that's not for any gameplay reasons, just because the playable races don't have them in this particular setting). I've found it hard to articulate my complaints about it until I read the Chameleon PrC entry in Races of Destiny...I realized then that it wasn't that I opposed the ultra-generalist approach so much as it was I opposed the fact that it could be altered on a round-by-round basis. I'm actually pretty okay with Chameleon, even though it seems very similar to Factotum at first glance, because there's some preparation required beforehand.

Also, continuing on my circumstantial assumption, I'd like to add that at the moment nobody in the party has lockpicking/trap-finding capabilities, which is scary and something you can fix.

[Venger]

I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're my new player given the unlikelihood of some other person asking for a level 9 Chameleon build within four days of it coming up with our group.

I'm personally not a fan of Factotum, and it's actually the only class I've outright banned (excepting psionics, but that's not for any gameplay reasons, just because the playable races don't have them in this particular setting). I've found it hard to articulate my complaints about it until I read the Chameleon PrC entry in Races of Destiny...I realized then that it wasn't that I opposed the ultra-generalist approach so much as it was I opposed the fact that it could be altered on a round-by-round basis. I'm actually pretty okay with Chameleon, even though it seems very similar to Factotum at first glance, because there's some preparation required beforehand.

Also, continuing on my circumstantial assumption, I'd like to add that at the moment nobody in the party has lockpicking/trap-finding capabilities, which is scary and something you can fix.

why would you ban factotum? it's hardly gamebreaking. casters can alter their entire role on a round by round basis too, do you ban them?

factotum can trapfind. it functions basically exactly like a rogue, especially if your player's not going factotum20 but is going chameleon instead. check out the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0) and have your fears of what's new and different set at ease.

[Milodiah]

I know, I never can fully explain what it is I don't like about factotums, it's probably just lingering distaste from watching one played high-OP in a low-OP small party...you can imagine what that looked like, I'm sure.

As for casters, they don't alter their roles from magic user to rogue to combat character and back on a round-by-round basis...there are casters that blend those elements, like beguilers or hexblades, but they all have specific setups and strategies for them.

[Venger]

I know, I never can fully explain what it is I don't like about factotums, it's probably just lingering distaste from watching one played high-OP in a low-OP small party...you can imagine what that looked like, I'm sure.

ok. well since your player's speccing for chameleon, you don't exactly need to worry about him being high-op.

I can't, really, since factotum's at best a high T3. I'm gathering the rest of the party was just really bad so got outshined? that's more of an experience discrepancy than anything wrong with the class tho, since the same thing could've happened with rogue.



As for casters, they don't alter their roles from magic user to rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) to combat character (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) and back on a round-by-round basis...there are casters that blend those elements, like beguilers or hexblades, but they all have specific setups and strategies for them.

yeah, they really do, and they do it to a much worse degree than factotum does, since all he'll do (since he's only taking 5 lvls) is give himself some bonuses to skills and rolls and maybe heal a little HP damage once in a while. if you're not banning wizards, then a factotum is in no way too powerful since he's vastly inferior in every way

[Milodiah]

I'm sorry, I phrased that wrong. Yes, wizards do have polymorph to turn into a horrifying murderbeast, or can turn invisible to be stealthy. They're accomplishing multiple roles by using their specific capabilities, which is great. I just don't care for how factotum more or less literally just uses puts a whole bunch of other classes' features like back-stabbing and turning undead into a pool that can be tapped whenever it's wanted.

[Venger]

I'm sorry, I phrased that wrong. Yes, wizards do have polymorph to turn into a horrifying murderbeast, or can turn invisible to be stealthy. They're accomplishing multiple roles by using their specific capabilities, which is great. I just don't care for how factotum more or less literally just uses puts a whole bunch of other classes' features like back-stabbing and turning undead into a pool that can be tapped whenever it's wanted.

>whole bunch

that's basically the only two you'll be able to emulate with 5 lvls of factotum, and you can't do it "whenever you want" since you have a limited number of inspiration points/encounter which is far lower than the amount of spell slots a wizard (or cleric/sorcerer/druid/etc) has for each encounter.

sneak attack is pretty worthless on an absolute scale and factota don't get enough of it to autowin any encounters. their opportunistic piety is also just atrocious for turning undead since your ECL is so low. it's not like he's going to be able to make your rogue or cleric feel useless, he's just not good enough in either sphere to overshadow anyone.

and again, casters can already do stuff like that via wracking touch or rebuking breath, to such a degree that it actually does overshadow classes that are good at stuff.

anyway, you'll see for yourself when gametime comes. I strongly encourage you to allow factotum. they play exactly like a rogue if rogue didn't suck so hard.

if you're skeptical, stat one up and try it out in some quick pregen encounters. you'll see he won't overshadow anybody.

[Milodiah]

Very well, I'll allow factotum to see how it goes. And it's never been an issue of tiers or power levels to me, it's genuinely just that I don't care for the idea of a class whose very purpose is "just try to cover all the bases".

[Venger]

Very well, I'll allow factotum to see how it goes. And it's never been an issue of tiers or power levels to me, it's genuinely just that I don't care for the idea of a class whose very purpose is "just try to cover all the bases".

hey, that's great. let us know how it goes. I think you'll be happy with the results. I understand your feelings. much like a bard, your best bet is to pick one or two things you're interested in and focus there rather than try to spread yourself too thin.

[Chronos]

Really, the factotum isn't so much a dabbler "cover all the bases" class, as it is an amazingly good skillmonkey that also dabbles in a few other things. None of the other things they do come anywhere close to their skillmonkeying. In fact, if I were to ban the class, it'd be because they're better at skills than the rogue is, who's supposed to be the best at skills, and doesn't really have anything else worthwhile.

[Milodiah]

As mentioned before, the group needs a trapfinder/lockpicker skillmonkey, and since half the group is of the 2/level skill progression variety, an all-around one would be somewhat appreciated actually.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can pick up trapfinding in exchange for 2 feats; shape soulmeld (thief gloves) and open least chakra (hand), IIRC. No skill-monkey class necessary. Meeting the search requirements of a good trap-monkey is trickier but only slightly so. Not necessarily the most optimal choice but an option nevertheless.

[Venger]

You can pick up trapfinding in exchange for 2 feats; shape soulmeld (thief gloves) and open least chakra (hand), IIRC. No skill-monkey class necessary. Meeting the search requirements of a good trap-monkey is trickier but only slightly so. Not necessarily the most optimal choice but an option nevertheless.

that is correct. binding the theft gloves to the hand chakra gives trapfinding alongside some small bonuses to dd, sleight of hand, and ol.

but factota have trapfinding, so that's that.

as a dip, yes, but an incarnate has the truthseeker goggles.

factotum 1/incarnate 19 is popular, as is incarnate 1/rogue 19*, as mentioned in the incarnate by the numbers handbook

*rogue and roguish classes.

[Troacctid]

You could always go Factotum 1/Incarnate 4/Chameleon 10 (or some other skillmonkey class instead of Factotum). I'm personally a big fan of incarnum classes for Chameleon entry. Their day-to-day versatility fits right into the concept, and they're frontloaded enough that you don't mind skipping out of them at 6th level.

[Venger]

You could always go Factotum 1/Incarnate 4/Chameleon 10 (or some other skillmonkey class instead of Factotum). I'm personally a big fan of incarnum classes for Chameleon entry. Their day-to-day versatility fits right into the concept, and they're frontloaded enough that you don't mind skipping out of them at 6th level.

plus: dat free-floating feat for shape soulmeld/open chakra.

[Chronos]

The problem with getting trapfinding from Theft Gloves is that if you want trapfinding, then you probably also want gloves of dexterity. Yes, Split Chakra is a thing, but by the time you're spending three feats to get an ability, you're probably better off with the one-level dip.

[Venger]

The problem with getting trapfinding from Theft Gloves is that if you want trapfinding, then you probably also want gloves of dexterity. Yes, Split Chakra is a thing, but by the time you're spending three feats to get an ability, you're probably better off with the one-level dip.

while that's true to a certain extent, the bonus offered by theft gloves will quickly outstrip the one to gloves of dex, especially, as with a chameleon, dex isn't your primary (or even tertiary) attribute.

[Crake]

Dont forget that chameleons get floating ability bonuses, so they can buff their dex anyway, and also prepare cat's grace to get a total of +10 to dex if they so desire.

Really though, i've always been a fan of using chameleon to qualify for double 9s as early as possible via floating bonus feat shenannigans.