Can you give me an example of optimized 20th level play?

[Reprimand]

I recently got a chance to play using 20th level characters in a game and got labeled a powergamer/muchkin/etc as usually happens whenever I try to game in a group. The thing is I'm not even really doing much to be called this!

my build is this: Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Penetrating Strike Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 15 and I'm using daring outlaw.

I'm abusing shock trooper and power attack which leaves my open to insta-die from basically any other monsters. I'm also using twisted charge skill trick and a few other things. I'm also using a scimitar and dagger I'm not even abusing 2h weapons with power attack yet I'm op!

I mean I'm not even using battle jump for heaven's sake!

Anything that can demenion hop, use clerity or has a contigent spell will screw over this build instantly. I mean we have a wizard 5/incantatrix 3/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 5 yet I'm op!

Can someone give me advice on how to explain how this is rather injust or at least how to help out some of the other players to not feel "overshadowed"

[heavyfuel]

If you're constantly overshadowing the other players, the best solution is probably toning it down a notch. Even if you teach them to be as optimized as you, the DM might not be good enough to handle a higher OP party.

[(Un)Inspired]

Being a munchkin isn't about having a high powered character. It's about obsessing over the power of your character.

When I hear the term munchkin I think of someone who ineptly attempts to put together the most powerful build they can think of with little regard for character concept cohesion.

From the little you've posted about you build it seems pretty low power even for a BSF build. Maybe your party is unhappy with the way you are approaching the game rather than the outright strength of your character?

[Reprimand]

If you're constantly overshadowing the other players, the best solution is probably toning it down a notch. Even if you teach them to be as optimized as you, the DM might not be good enough to handle a higher OP party.

The thing is I'm not even doing much!

The wizard is abusing simlicrum/ice assassin/gate/wish like there's no tomorrow yet I'm the munchkin!!

I'm not being competitive either, I used to do that a lot but I've gotten way better about it.

The only thing I could be doing to bother the party is playing a CE character which was approved by the DM, even then he's cooperating with the party.

[heavyfuel]

The thing is I'm not even doing much!

The wizard is abusing simlicrum/ice assassin/gate/wish like there's no tomorrow yet I'm the munchkin!!

I'm not being competitive either, I used to do that a lot but I've gotten way better about it.

The only thing I could be doing to bother the party is playing a CE character which was approved by the DM, even then he's cooperating with the party.

Is your DM very combat-focus? Cuz this is when I usually see these things happen... The <insert Tier 1 class here> is doing really well out of combat and that's completely fine, but the second you create a character that can consistently deal over 50 damage per attack, you're OP.

Talk to the DM and players to see why they think you're a munchkin. Ask them why can the Wizard do these things and be fine while you're just dishing out some damage (from melee no less). Point to them that combat in D&D is only a part of what the game is about, there's also problem solving and, of course, role playing

[Reprimand]

Is your DM very combat-focus? Cuz this is when I usually see these things happen... The <insert Tier 1 class here> is doing really well out of combat and that's completely fine, but the second you create a character that can consistently deal over 50 damage per attack, you're OP.

Talk to the DM and players to see why they think you're a munchkin. Ask them why can the Wizard do these things and be fine while you're just dishing out some damage (from melee no less). Point to them that combat in D&D is only a part of what the game is about, there's also problem solving and, of course, role playing

It's not as if I don't roleplay either the character will more than often take time of his day to give last rites to an enemy (he's sort of a priest just not a divine caster), he's even conducted a wedding in the name of his god!

But I get what your saying I need to commuicate more than I am...

It's just hard when people are already so stacked againist you!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Anything that can demenion hop, use clerity or has a contigent spell will screw over this build instantly. I mean we have a wizard 5/incantatrix 3/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 5 yet I'm op!

I was going to say "This, but actually casting spells outside of combat". I'd assumed that despite using high power classes the player in question was just blasting and his "using ultimate cosmic power to swing a hammer" was less effective than your "swinging a hammer well".

Then I read this.


The wizard is abusing simlicrum/ice assassin/gate/wish

I have no response. The wizard has a crack team of servants to do his hammering, is summoning John Henry to hammer better than any mortal has ever hammered and is probably making hammering entirely unnecessary more often than not.

[Telonius]

If you're really trying to show which character contributes more, take a combat that you've just had. Re-run it, except your character is not there. Then re-run it with your character there, but the Wizard (and all the buffing that comes from him) is gone. See which scenario ends better for your party.

[sideswipe]

melee cannot have nice things!!!! just dont bring in a monk, the noob group you play with will freak!

instead bring in a psion and abuse recharge mechanics and pay a STP erudite that is epic level to give you all known spells.

this seems what your group wants. careful not to take weapon focus though...

(this post may seem sarcastic but the character i suggested is a real suggestion)

[Flickerdart]

The wizard is abusing simlicrum/ice assassin/gate/wish like there's no tomorrow yet I'm the munchkin!!
Wizards are magic, they're supposed to be powerful. Melee characters need to know their place.

[dascarletm]

Wizards are magic, they're supposed to be powerful. Melee characters need to know their place.

Pretty much. Go 20 fighter for the flavor and focus on weapon focus (katana). That's full of flavor and lean in the munchkin department.

[Flickerdart]

Pretty much. Go 20 fighter for the flavor and focus on weapon focus (katana). That's full of flavor and lean in the munchkin department.
The katana is a dirty munchkin weapon. Only the longsword (wielded one-handed, of course) is permitted.

[Sam K]

Wizards are magic, they're supposed to be powerful. Melee characters need to know their place.

This.

I suggest punching the wizards player in the face. Then he will know his place. After all, magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! SWORDS FOR EVERYONE!

[OldTrees1]

There is a notable difference at high optimization between Visible and Invisible power. Shock Trooper (and damage in general) is a very Visible power*. Spellcasting tends to be a rather Invisible power. In your situation I would shift gears towards a more invisible form of martial power**.


*Not to mention that it either has no cost or the character dies quickly.
**Status inflicting Melee AoEs at range is my go to.

[Curmudgeon]

I recently got a chance to play using 20th level characters in a game and got labeled a powergamer/muchkin/etc as usually happens whenever I try to game in a group. The thing is I'm not even really doing much to be called this!

my build is this: Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Penetrating Strike Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 15 and I'm using daring outlaw.
That build entails a significant multiclassing XP penalty. I've noticed munchkins tend to ignore such inconvenient rules.

[Bad Wolf]

An example of optimized play depends on the class. On one hand, martial classes can take down the Tarrasque singlehandedly. On the other, the Wizard is sitting on top of a throne made of dead Greater Deities.

[Flickerdart]

That build entails a significant multiclassing XP penalty. I've noticed munchkins most people tend to ignore such inconvenient rules.
Fixed it for you.

[eggynack]

That build entails a significant multiclassing XP penalty. I've noticed munchkins tend to ignore such inconvenient rules.
Or, very possibly, people who dislike silly and unnecessary rules tend to ignore silly and unnecessary rules. It also seems somewhat unlikely that the DM is pointing to this issue as an example of munchkinry. If he's aware of the rule, is enforcing it, and just doesn't notice, then he obviously wouldn't have anything to point to, and if he's not aware of the rule or is not enforcing it, then he would equally have nothing to point to, because the build is fair by the game's rules. The only case where munchkinry could feasibly be called is where the rule is in effect, and the DM is aware of the breakage, and the OP complained his way into not having it impact his build. If that's what occurred, this is really more of an OOC issue.

[heavyfuel]

Fixed it for you.

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only DM around where I live that ignores this rule. Seriously, I've played 3.e with 10 DMs give or take, and every single one applied multiclass penalties

[icefractal]

Most people ignore multiclassing penalties, because they're a bad rule:
* Not Balanced: Wizard/IotSFV has no penalty under the normal interpretation, Druid 20 has no penalty ever. Fighter 2/Paladin 18 has a penalty. Guess which of these is the least powerful?
* Doesn't Encourage What It Claims: Fighter 4/Rogue 6 has a penalty. Fighter 2/Rogue 1/Monk 2/Barbarian 2/Ranger 2/Incarnate 1 doesn't.
* Stupid Goal in the First Place: Why is someone who continues training equally in a number of fields a good character we should encourage, while someone who started out as one thing and grew over time (like, oh, Conan) is a bad thing to be penalized?

[eggynack]

Most people ignore multiclassing penalties, because they're a bad rule:
* Not Balanced: Wizard/IotSFV has no penalty under the normal interpretation, Druid 20 has no penalty ever. Fighter 2/Paladin 18 has a penalty. Guess which of these is the least powerful?
* Doesn't Encourage What It Claims: Fighter 4/Rogue 6 has a penalty. Fighter 2/Rogue 1/Monk 2/Barbarian 2/Ranger 2/Incarnate 1 doesn't.
Really, you don't have to look much further than this very thread. The barbarian/rogue/swashbuckler is apparently a munchkin because he's ignoring multiclass penalties, while the wizard/incantatrix/initiate/archmage is apparently just fine, even though that build is actually touching on more classes.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

This problem comes up a lot when;

1) You got an inexperienced DM who thinks that high damage = high op, and large number of specials = high op. Because casters tend to have only a single extremely powerful special (spellcasting) who doesn't usually deal extreme damage, inexperienced DMs and players will disregard the power they bring to play.


2) You got a DM who believes in the "guy at the gym" fallacy and sees high-level fighters like Aragorn. Problem is, Aragorn was a 6th to 8th level ranger. The high-level physical classes would be people like Hercules (barbarian), Batman (rogue), Wonder Woman (fighter) and the like. Basically, if Wonder Woman could do it then 20th level fighters should be able to - but many DMs fail to see that.

[dascarletm]

The katana is a dirty munchkin weapon. Only the longsword (wielded one-handed, of course) is permitted.

Dang I tried to slip it past you. My munchkinery is too weak.

[Flickerdart]

Dang I tried to slip it past you. My munchkinery is too weak.
The thing to do is to always refer to it as "your sword" and never specify what kind of sword it is until it's important. "They're immune to slashing damage? Good thing this is a Short Sword and deals Piercing! A disarm attempt? I was wielding my Greatsword, it gets +4!"

[dascarletm]

The thing to do is to always refer to it as "your sword" and never specify what kind of sword it is until it's important. "They're immune to slashing damage? Good thing this is a Short Sword and deals Piercing! A disarm attempt? I was wielding my Greatsword, it gets +4!"

by Heironious, that's brilliant!

Teach me your ways.

[Flickerdart]

by Heironious, that's brilliant!

Teach me your ways.
The advanced level is to cultivate a thick foreign accent so you can slur your weapon's name (or indeed, entire actions) and it will be too impolite to ask you to repeat yourself.

[eggynack]

Better yet, you could replace all of your attacks with fwooshing noises, thus letting you use non-swords. Like, "I attack my opponent. Fwoosh fwoosh fwoosh. He takes 23 damage."

Edit: And, when challenged on it, you can argue that the length of time between fwooshes should be more than sufficient as a weapon identifier.

[Brookshw]

I wouldn't blink at your character if they showed up when I was running a semi hi OP game. Generally when I do my players are dealing near 200 damage by level 10 and by level 20.../shrug, it's a bit of a toss up but they can easily open up when they want to drop 400+ damage on a creature (and by + I mean 400 is on the low end, 600 is easily the norm without substantial defense), each, a round. Then again, I'm not your DM and what they feel is appropriate for their table is their call and I'm not in a position to judge it.

To answer your question as I best understand it, in a semi hi OP game I expect stats in the 30s-40s easily by level 20, saves in the mid 20s if not higher, immunity to most elemental sources of damage and high resistance to those that the party isn't immune to, high miss chances, ridiculous skill checks, more battle field control than you can shake a stick at, layered contingencies, immunity to energy drain, ability damage\drain, poison immunity, disease immunity, well, suffice to say if it wouldn't effect a construct it probably won't effect the party. Mind blanks galore. Cripes, I could go on for a while.

Anywho, you're table sounds somewhat off, if the caster is pulling all that I'd be pissed in that it was tying up so much time when the rest of the party should also be contributing. Gate/Ice Assassin shenanigans are the realm of the depraved as far as I'm concerned and thankfully my group agrees (that and they know I'm a mean hand when it comes to tossing books).

Sounds like, as boring advice as it may be, that it's time to speak to the DM and get a handle for what they want in the campaign.

[Petrocorus]

Maybe you're labelled a munchkin because of some previous PC you made before. Because clearly, your current pC is not overpowered.
LST Whirling Frenzy Barb 1/ PS Rogue 4 is a bit op, for a melee classes. But any build using 15 lvl of Swashbuckler cannot be called a powergaming build. It should rather be called underpowered. And even less when there is an Ice Assassin abusing wizard in the party.

So maybe you just acquired a reputation and it sticks. Anyway, the best thing to do would probably to speak with. They're the ones calling you munchkin, they should able to explain you why.

[Astralia123]

There is a notable difference at high optimization between Visible and Invisible power. Shock Trooper (and damage in general) is a very Visible power*. Spellcasting tends to be a rather Invisible power. In your situation I would shift gears towards a more invisible form of martial power**.


*Not to mention that it either has no cost or the character dies quickly.
**Status inflicting Melee AoEs at range is my go to.


I guess the truth is just to the opposite of your point.

To some people, wizardry cheese is one thing that they think "interesting" and does not bother them much, while true optimising for martial classes, like a throwing weapon master who can attack 6 times per round, each dealing 60 or more damage, remains in black box to them.

People may tend to call highly complexed and essentially obscure optimising (in their views, which is effectively the kind of optimising they don't understand) "munchkining", regardless their true effectiveness in the game.


I'm not sure if this is your case, cause your other party member seem to be quite under-optimized. Are they continuously and overly obsessed with the overwhelming advantage of wizards over any other classes, outside the game? If yes, then they may just think it is forgiveable for a wizard to do cheesing, while optimising with any other classes would really challenge them.

[Flickerdart]

Edit: And, when challenged on it, you can argue that the length of time between fwooshes should be more than sufficient as a weapon identifier.
No way, man - obviously, you do different sound effects for each weapon. At least, that's what you claim.

[WhamBamSam]

This sounds to me like a case of hazing the new guy. If the Wizard is using Ice Assassins I can't imagine him not having at least a few that are as good or better than you and which are near or above your damage output. Apart from anything else it's trivial to make an Ice Assassin of you (or an Ice Assassin of that Ice Assassin if he's worried about the first one trying to fulfill its purpose because he didn't word his orders carefully enough). You can't even be looking cooler doing it, because, again, the Wizard can just make an Ice Assassin that looks at least as cool.

Some DMs who don't really understand optimization do get bent out of shape about damage, but I don't think that's what's going on here. I think the DM's just picking on you because he wants you to be useless (even moreso than being a melee person in a 20th level party with a relatively optimized Wizard) while the other players that he's already friends with run the show.

I'd recommend talking to the DM (without being too accusatory) to try and figure out what's up. But this seems to go beyond any conceivable degree to which it could just be a lack of understanding.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What is the wizard, erm, doing with his ridiculous class features and simulacrums and such? Because he could have used melee buffs to out-damage your character back at 8th level. It could very well be that no one else really knows what they're doing, so you might be OP relative to your group. You can lead a player to ridiculous OP classes, but you can't make him break it.

[eggynack]

No way, man - obviously, you do different sound effects for each weapon. At least, that's what you claim.
And then you can act deeply offended when they don't recognize the difference in your wooshes, perhaps weeping as you make futile wooshing sounds. This is a whole new form of char op.

[dascarletm]

And then you can act deeply offended when they don't recognize the difference in your wooshes, perhaps weeping as you make futile wooshing sounds. This is a whole new form of char op.

Crying,
the best optimization trick since contingent spells.