Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Youarenotpro]

After playing Pathfinder for about a year, our DM decided to transition our group over to 5e. We are at 9th level and I was in the process of building a Paladin/Dragon Disciple, mostly because our party was too melee-heavy.

I have a couple questions (although any advice is welcome):
1. Is it optimal at all to multiclass, or would sticking to pure Paladin be much stronger?
2. My initial build was to go Paladin 5/Sorcerer X, taking Oath of Vengeance. Are there stronger options?
3. Would it be better to take another spell casting class instead of Sorcerer?

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

[Regulas]

Personally I don't like multiclassing in 5e unless you have a specific build path in mind. I would more likely either take Magic initate feat as a Paladin (to get cantrips and maybe a familiar for the level 1 just for flavour reasons) or just go for a more caster class. Or just stick to full Paladin.

If you don't want to be too flimsy/pure sorcerer then go Cleric or Druid, or even Warlock. In this cases you get to be tougher better armored/armed while still being more of a caster.

A cleric would still be very paladin like but more of a caster and prob better then split class. You could take light domain so you can be spitting fire like a dragon etc.

[charcoalninja]

If you're tempted to go down to Paladin 5 / Sorcerer X I recommend you go Paladin 6 / Sorcerer X because there's nothing in the game remotely comparable to the level 6 Aura. Adding +Cha to all saves is incredibly amazing, especially since it adds to all allies within 10'.

So at level 9 Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 3 would give you casting slots = a 6th level Sorcerer with some of Sorcery points for more slots, and all of them you can smite from for crazy good nova damage, especially if you decide to dual wield.

This gives you 1 feat and next level you grab another from Sorcerer and you're solid. 6th level caster I think has:

4 / 3 / 2 for slots? which gives you a LOT of smites if you want it, with some nice punch from sorcerer. Paladin 6 gives you a "warhorse" from find mount that you could ask your DM to flavour as a drake (so looks like a dragonbeast but has stats as a horse) for more dragony awesome. Course playing a dragonborn never hurts either, +STR/CHA is nice.

For your feat go either Warcaster, Resilient (CON) or Heavy Armour Mastery for the DR/3- to most of the game. Really solid feat. Your Sorcerer could also Blast using quicken spell for a tidy sum, then move in and SMITE for a staggaring amount of nova damage potential. Scorching Ray quickened to lead in then run in and smite (with a lance for bonus fun) is a very viable option.

[odigity]

Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15 is a pretty good build. You get Extra Attack, Divine Smite, 2nd lvl Paladin spells, 8th lvl Sorceror spells, and 9th lvl spell slots. (And Vow of Enmity is great.)

I'm playing a Paladin 2 right now with the goal of Paladin 13 (Ancients) / Warlock 7 (Fiend/Blade).

[Yorrin]

Yeah, I'd take Paladin to 6 if you're going to jump out to Sorcerer (or Warlock). Cha to saves is just too nice to pass up when you're just a level away from it. Sorcerer has enough buff spells that you could focus on being a magical paladin rather than a tough spellcaster, or vice-versa. Either way the build lends itself more to a Cha+Dex rather than a Cha+Str, thanks to Sorcerer unarmored bonus.

[MaxWilson]

Paladin 6 / Sorc X is just fine for a tank. Your at-will damage output doesn't really compete with fighters, but if you're okay being the guy who wears heavy armor, buffs other people with Bless, throws out occasional Fireballs, and makes everyone else very resistant to enemy magic, you can have a good time. Your nova damage option is likely to be a quickened spell (Fireball?) plus two weapon strikes with divine smite. Your backup option (less damaging but a whole lot cheaper) could be as simple as a quickened Fire Bolt spell plus another Fire Bolt, doing 8d10 + 10 points of damage if both hit.

I'm assuming red/gold dragon sorcerer here in damage calculations, although Wild Sorc also has some very, very interesting options for buffing and debuffing other party members.

So yes, it's a good build with a lot to contribute.

[Person_Man]

My opinion:

1) It's not necessarily optimal to multiclass in 5E (ie, better then a strait build), but various combinations are certainly viable. You basically delay the benefits of your primary class in order to cherry pick a key ability from your dip class.

2) The Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer's at-will damage from cantrips is just a few points below the average at-will damage from attacks with weapons. At mid-high levels, the Sorcerer's burst damage potential from a Metamagic is typically higher and can be used more frequently then a Paladin's burst damage potential from Smite + Smite spell. The Sorcerer has a much wider array of cool effects and buffs from spells then the Paladin, especially at high levels. At low levels, its important to note that the Sorcerer starts with Charisma and Constitution Save Proficiency (whereas Paladin starts with Wis/Cha) which is very important for maintaining Concentration spells.

A Paladin is likely to have an AC 0-3 points higher then a Sorcerer (depending on your Dex and whether or not you use a shield). Your at-will damage from heavy melee weapons is likely to be slightly higher then the at-will damage from Cantrips (especially a levels 1-5), though obviously with a more limited range. The Paladin is likely to have 2ish more hit points per Paladin class level. The Paladin will typically end up with better Saving Throw results then a Sorcerer, and can provide those benefits to allies that stick nearby. The Paladin has a few cherry spells that the Sorcerer doesn't get access to, like Find Steed and Bless.

Separately, they're each excellent classes. But I honestly don't see much synergy from combining them. Your at-will weapon damage will fall behind by taking Sorcerer levels, your Metamagic points and spell progression falls behind from taking Paladin levels, and nothing combines in a particularly useful way.

3) Yes. Paladin 2/Valor Bard 18 or Paladin 2 or 7/Pact of Blade Warlock 18 or 13.


Honestly, if you want to play a Paladin, I would just go with Paladin 20. It's an awesome class as is. Or if your group is already too melee focused, go strait Bard, Warlock, or Sorcerer, which are also each awesome in their own ways.

[silveralen]

As for it being better or worse than full paladin, that's harder to say. I'm basing this on a 6/14.

Pros: Spell variety, including
AoE spells
Utility spells
Ranged spells
Buff spells
More spell slots
Meta magic

Cons: Can get many of the more useful spells from one oath or another
Can't gain access to many of the more useful sorcerer spells until very late game
Burst damage actually suffers (divine smite caps at 4d8, you lack access to banishing smite or improved divine smite which can stack with it)
Lose access to some auras, and all improved auras.
Lose access to a couple potentially useful oath features (though a dragon sorcerer basically has a better version of vengeance paladin's capstone at 14. Which work great for the 6/14 build).
Hard to max both CHA and STR/DEX with this split.

Neither is flat out worse. A Paladin/Sorc isn't going to just be a better version of paladin, if that is your worry.

[Regulas]

I edited it in but to put in more concisely separately:

Why not play a cleric? I mean if you were to fuse a Paladin and a Full caster like sorc into one character... it would literally become a cleric. You can basically have the same lore as being a Paladin (you're some kind of holy warrior) while not being full on melee.

You can take like the storm domain and you still get blasting spells and Plate and Martial weapons. You would use the blasting spells for heavy damage and martial weapon as fallback reliable damage.

Or Light domain and you still have medium armour with fire blasting.

[MaxWilson]

I edited it in but to put in more concisely separately:

Why not play a cleric? I mean if you were to fuse a Paladin and a Full caster like sorc into one character... it would literally become a cleric. You can basically have the same lore as being a Paladin (you're some kind of holy warrior) while not being full on melee.

You can take like the storm domain and you still get blasting spells and Plate and Martial weapons. You would use the blasting spells for heavy damage and martial weapon as fallback reliable damage.

Or Light domain and you still have medium armour with fire blasting.

Because you would lose out on the Paladin's +CHA bonus to saves for everyone, and you would lose out on the sorcerer's blasting power and metamagics. (Light clerics can't compete with dragon sorcerers.) Plus, you have to worship some stupid god, and some people (me) hate that kind of thing. Paladins can be ideal-driven instead of religion-driven; they're fundamentally heroic knights, not priests.

[Regulas]

Because you would lose out on the Paladin's +CHA bonus to saves for everyone, and you would lose out on the sorcerer's blasting power and metamagics. (Light clerics can't compete with dragon sorcerers.) Plus, you have to worship some stupid god, and some people (me) hate that kind of thing. Paladins can be ideal-driven instead of religion-driven; they're fundamentally heroic knights, not priests.

Lore in general principle has long allowed clerics to equally be followers of concepts as Paladins. They both basically have the same origin for power.

CHA bonus? Taking 7 levels for a single effect seems a little poor choice. Theres a feat for yourself.

And metamagic? But you barley have sorc points cause your low level sorc so you get a bonus for a few rounds a day.

In comparison to the benefits of being a full caster just doesn't really feel like it cuts it. A lvl 9 cleric will be casting 5th level spells compared to what 3rd level of the hybird? and with your domain list you have some added power that the natural list is missing.

[MaxWilson]

Lore in general principle has long allowed clerics to equally be followers of concepts as Paladins. They both basically have the same origin for power.

CHA bonus? Taking 7 levels for a single effect seems a little poor choice. Theres a feat for yourself.

And metamagic? But you barley have sorc points cause your low level sorc so you get a bonus for a few rounds a day.

In comparison to the benefits of being a full caster just doesn't really feel like it cuts it. A lvl 9 cleric will be casting 5th level spells compared to what 3rd level of the hybird? and with your domain list you have some added power that the natural list is missing.

1.) The CHA bonus to saves isn't the only thing you get out of those six (not seven) levels, even though it is the most important. You get 3 levels of spell slots, heavy armor proficiency and a fighting style, access to some great spells including Bless and Find Steed which you can then cast with Sorcerer slots, and a sometimes-useful Channel Divinity feature and maybe some bonus spells like Hunter's Mark. (For sorcs, extra spells known are kind of a big deal, especially because paladins can swap them out during a rest.)

2.) You're not a low-level sorc. You've only lost three casting levels, which means you eventually get all the way up to 9th level spell slots (although you don't know any 8th or 9th level spells). You will have plenty of metamagic points via spell slot conversion if you need them. You could do a double Fire Bolt every turn for 40 turns and probably not (quite) run out of metamagic points. You're not well-equipped to be the party's main mage, obviously, but you can lay down plenty of hurt when you want to.

3.) CHA bonus to saves is not only great for yourself ("a feat" you say, but in practice you'd need at least two), the whole point of taking Paladin 6 is to provide those saves to other party members. If you're just concerned with protecting yourself and no one else you shouldn't be a paladin in the first place; you have the wrong mindset. Paladin Aura + Bless = +6 to 9 to saves for 3 other party members as long as they stand close to you, which won't be always nor never but somewhere in between.

4.) As a bonus, Sorcerer metamagic allows you to maximize the Concentration economy, so you could e.g. cast Shield of Faith on both yourself and your buddy the fighter for a static +2 to AC to both of you, for the cost of 1 sorcery point. Totally worth it, and not something a pure cleric could replicate. Not compatible with Bless obviously, so use this against foes that are more physical than magical.

[Regulas]

For some reason I feel that whenever people calculate multi-classing it feels like they are comparing their power only to their highest class levle, i.e. if they are making a 6/3 char they compare their power to a level 6 char instead of to a level 9 one.

Take 9th level spells, is there any low level class feature that is really worth giving up 9th level spells for? Their power is often (especially wish for those that get it) potentially outright game-breaking.

[MaxWilson]

For some reason I feel that whenever people calculate multi-classing it feels like they are comparing their power only to their highest class levle, i.e. if they are making a 6/3 char they compare their power to a level 6 char instead of to a level 9 one.

Take 9th level spells, is there any low level class feature that is really worth giving up 9th level spells for? Their power is often (especially wish for those that get it) potentially outright game-breaking.

For some reason I feel that whenever people cast blanket accusations out into the ether immediately after I've posted something, they might be talking to me. So I'll address this post:

Yes. You must and I do calculate tradeoffs. The paladin 6/sorc X's niche, as I've expressed it in this thread, is tanking and party protection, plus a bit of blasting and maybe face-time. No, he will never be able to cast Wish or Meteor Swarm. All he can do at-will is 27 points per round of fire damage, doubled to 56 for the cost of 2 sorcery points, which is decent but not exceptional. On the plus side, he tanks far better than a Sorcerer 20 ever will, and his saves are better. He also gives those excellent saves to everyone else in the party. He tanks better in most ways than a full paladin too (Shield spell, Haste), although he has a smaller radius on his protection aura.

Defensive tanking: excellent.
Blasting: decent.
Summoning: minimal. (Partly because sorcerers don't get any good summoning spells anyway.)
Mobility: excellent.
Wish-ability: non-existent.

Does that answer your question? Yes, the opportunity costs have been considered. Not everybody in the whole party needs to be a Wish-caster.

[Dorphius]

I am currently in a campaign and am vengeance paladin 5/ dragon line sorcerer 5. I believe this is a great burst damage class. Say your party is fighting one powerful boss like a dragon or something. On your first round you use your bonus action to channel divinity to get advantage on all your attack rolls against the dragon. Then cast haste on yourself. Then in the same round, you can get off 1 attack from haste being on you, and get advantage. If you hit with a long sword, that is 1d8 + 5 (20 str) plus using a 4th lvl spell slot, that is 5d8 from divine smite which is max a smite can do. Then if you take damage and make the con save (mine is +7 from taking resilliant feat being the variant human with a feat at 1st lvl). You are then still hasted on your next round. Use bonus action quicken and empower a spell such as scorching ray, lightning bolt, fireball, bless, or even slow, (dragon will make its save more than likely) then you have 3 attacks with advantage and assuming you hit on all 3 is 3d8 +15 from weapon damage alone plus ( lets say you use your 2nd lvl spell slots) 3 divine smites for 3d8 each. With advantage on all your attack rolls for the fight, and getting 3 attacks a round, the chances are pretty good you may get a crit as well, and double all dice rolled for damage smites and all.

If your fighting multiple foes you can skip using your channel divinity, and instead empower and quicken a fireball or something, then get your 2 attacks and use highest lvl spell slots for divine smites.

I love this combo, it is like being sort of a berserker. You can do lots of damage very quickly, however if you have multiple encounters before a long rest, you need to conserve and maybe only cast cantrips and use lower lvl spell slots with your smites. Save the big stuff for the biggest opponents.

I will probably go up one more level in paladin to get the bonus to saving throws for myself and nearby party members, then go the rest as sorcerer continuing to gain more spell slots than a strait paladin. However there is another avenue to do even more burst damage, but after 3 rounds would be almost completely tapped out aside from cantrips or weapon damage alone.

go 5 paladin 5 sorcerer and 2 champion. First round use channel divinity on your bonus action, cast haste, get 1 attack with smite, next round quicken and empower big offensive spell, attack 3 times with advantage and smites, then use action surge and get 3 more attacks with smites all while having advantage, and critting on either a 19 or 20. I rolled the dice just for fun, and in that second round without critting, did 142 damage. I rolled to hit for that 2nd round several other times, I have not done the math, but I normally would crit 1 to 2 times every time I rolled 6 attacks with advantage. the biggest problem is you get to be very useless after that 3rd round having depleted all your spell slots for smites. but atleast you still get 3 attacks a round after that IF the fight even lasts that long. Chances are, it wont.

instead of getting empowered spell, you could choose twin spell, and twin haste on yourself and another party member. There are lots of options, hold person is great in situations, because if opponent fails the save, you automatically crit and have advantage on your hit. If you cast hold person at higher lvl you can get it on multiple targets.

You can still be very versatile depending on which spells you get and how you choose to use them. It can be great for utility tank or great amounts of burst damage depending on the situation. Just my opinion from somebody that has played the sorce/paladin combo from 1st lvl and tested it so far up to 10th.

Anyway I love it, and i'm also rambling on and will shut up now, thanx for reading.

[Malifice]

4 / 3 / 2 for slots? which gives you a LOT of smites if you want it, with some nice punch from sorcerer. Paladin 6 gives you a "warhorse" from find mount that you could ask your DM to flavour as a drake (so looks like a dragonbeast but has stats as a horse) for more dragony awesome. Course playing a dragonborn never hurts either, +STR/CHA is nice..

With combined spell casting, your slots are much better than this.

A Sorcerer 14/Paladin 6 has 9th level slots.