Fighter 2 / Shadow Monk 6 / Assassin Rogue 12 [Archive]

odigity

2014-11-10, 03:53 PM

Am I wrong in thinking this is a stand-out build in terms of focus and synergy?

Fighter 2
- Fighting Style
- Second Wind
- Action Surge
Shadow Monk 6
- Unarmored Defense
- Martial Arts
- +15' Speed
- Flurry of Blows (other 2 Ki abilities obsoleted by Cunning Action)
- Deflect Missles
- Shadow Arts (Darkness, Darkvision, Pass w/o Trace, Silence)
- Slow Fall
- Extra Attack
- Stunning Strike
- Ki-Empowered Strikes (magic hands)
- Shadow Step (at-will 60' teleport)
- 1 ASI/Feat
Assassin Rogue 12
- Expertise x2
- 6d6 Sneak Attack
- Cunning Action
- Assassinate
- Uncanny Dodge
- Evasion
- Reliable Talent
- 4 ASIs/Feats

I can't even begin to process all the various ways these abilities can come together, and you still get 5 ASIs/Feats total -- 6 if human. Obviously this would be for a Dex/Wis build, so it's either Human or Wood Elf.

Shadow

2014-11-10, 04:15 PM

An extra die of sneak attack every turn is better than action surge on this build.
Rogue 13 / monk 6 / fighter 1
Depending on DM ruling with regards to whether or not a monk using Dex with a monk weapon constitutes finesse, you might be able to use the great weapon fighter style (for rerolls, including sneak attack dice by RAW as they are weapon damage dice.... but I'm sure that certainly isn't RAI) and/or the polearm master feat (for the OA offered) with a quaterstaff.

By the RAW, a quaterstaff doesn't have the finesse property. But a monk using a monk weapon can use it with Dex, which is all the finesse property is, so all simple weapons effectively have the finesse property for an unamored monk.
Some DMs will allow it and others won't.

odigity

2014-11-10, 04:41 PM

An extra die of sneak attack every turn is better than action surge on this build.

That's the craziest thing I've heard all day.

...polearm master feat (for the OA offered) with a quaterstaff.

This I agree with. If the DM rules Monk weapons are finesse, then you can take Polearm Master and a quarterstaff and Sneak Attack people when they enter your range as a reaction, plus throw Stunning Strike on top of it. Pretty dang sweet.

Shadow

2014-11-10, 04:47 PM

That's the craziest thing I've heard all day.

Action surge gets a multiclass monk/rogue with extra attack 1d6+Dex twice per attack action, wich is what action surge grants.
That about 17 points of damage, once per short rest.

An extra point of sneak attack damage is 3.5 points of damage every single turn (which includes OAs and such). It takes 5 sneak attacks to get the extra SA die even with what action surge offers. Most combats last an average of 6 rounds. At that average, with zero OAs taken, the extra SA die dealt 21 points of damage to AS's 17.
When you start getting OAs in, the sneak attack die pulls ahead considerably.
And that's if you get a short rest between each and every combat, which you won't.

That extra sneak attack die is far better than action surge on a rogue. It isn't a matter of opinion. It's a fact.

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-10, 05:00 PM

Action surge gets a multiclass monk/rogue with extra attack 1d6+Dex twice per attack action, wich is what action surge grants.
That about 17 points of damage, once per short rest.

An extra point of sneak attack damage is 3.5 points of damage every single turn (which includes OAs and such). It takes 5 sneak attacks to get the extra SA die even with what action surge offers. Most combats last an average of 6 rounds. At that average, with zero OAs taken, the extra SA die dealt 21 points of damage to AS's 17.
When you start getting OAs in, the sneak attack die pulls ahead considerably.
And that's if you get a short rest between each and everyu combat, which you won't.

That extra sneak attack die is far better than action surge on a rogue. It isn't a matter of opinoin. It's a fact.

I think I would much rather have the flexibility granted by a full extra action over 4 points of damage over the "average 6 round combat" <citation needed>.

That is obviously not taking into consideration OAs, but 2/3 points of damage per round versus incredible utility doesn't seem worth it. And honestly, if you're not taking Fighter 2 for Action Surge I'd wager that Fighter 1 is kind of a waste. Second Wind isn't THAT nice with just Fighter 1.

In Comparison,
Assassin Rogue 14 / Shadow Monk 6 picks up Imposter and Blindsense.
Assassin Rogue 12 / Shadow Monk 8 picks up a redundant Evasion, Stillness of Mind and an ASI.

Edit: In other words drop Fighter all together.

From Assassin Rogue 12 / Shadow Monk 6, you've got three paths (you could multi-class into something else but assuming you don't):

+2 Rogue Levels:
Rogue 13: Sneak Attack (+7d6), Imposter
Rogue 14: Blindsense

+1 Rogue Level, +1 Monk Level:
Rogue 13: Sneak Attack (+7d6), Imposter
Monk 7: +1 Ki Point, Evasion, Stillness of Mind

+2 Monk Levels:
Monk 7: +1 Ki Point, Evasion, Stillness of Mind
Monk 8: +1 ASI, 1 Ki Point

Note that Assassin Rogue 13 / Shadow Monk 7 is kind of silly. You'll wind up with the same HP either way.

Basically the question is, "Is an ASI worth +1d6 Sneak Attack and Blind Sense?"

odigity

2014-11-10, 05:43 PM

I think I would much rather have the flexibility granted by a full extra action over 4 points of damage over the "average 6 round combat" <citation needed>.

Agreed.

In Comparison,
Assassin Rogue 14 / Shadow Monk 6 picks up Imposter and Blindsense.
Assassin Rogue 12 / Shadow Monk 8 picks up a redundant Evasion, Stillness of Mind and an ASI.
Edit: In other words drop Fighter all together.

If Blindsense is important to me, then I'd rather spend those two levels dipping Warlock for Hex, Mask of Many Faces, and Devil's Sight. Especially considering the Shadow Monk can cast Darkness.

As for ASIs, you've already got 5, and you only need 4 to max out Dex/Wis, so you've already got one free one for flavor (Alert / Mage Slayer / Resilient / Skulker). I can live without ASI/feat #6. Unless there's a second feat you value more than seeing perfectly in both mundane and magical darkness at all times, plus Disguise Self at-will (no concentration), and Hex which can even hurt your targets initiative roll while adding yet more damage (which gets doubled by Assassinate)...

Yagyujubei

2014-11-10, 05:56 PM

power curve is pretty bad here though so you'll be spending most of the 20 levels somewhat gimped

odigity

2014-11-10, 06:06 PM

power curve is pretty bad here though so you'll be spending most of the 20 levels somewhat gimped

In terms of ASIs/Feats, yes. While you still end up 5, almost all are in the second half of your career.

However, the mix abilities is pretty dang awesome, and those are coming consistently from the beginning, because all three classes are front-loaded. So, it's not automatically a bad idea, unless you're in the "must have maxed scores by level X" camp.

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-10, 06:06 PM

If Blindsense is important to me, then I'd rather spend those two levels dipping Warlock for Hex, Mask of Many Faces, and Devil's Sight. Especially considering the Shadow Monk can cast Darkness.

As for ASIs, you've already got 5, and you only need 4 to max out Dex/Wis, so you've already got one free one for flavor (Alert / Mage Slayer / Resilient / Skulker). I can live without ASI/feat #6. Unless there's a second feat you value more than seeing perfectly in both mundane and magical darkness at all times, plus Disguise Self at-will (no concentration), and Hex which can even hurt your targets initiative roll while adding yet more damage (which gets doubled by Assassinate)...

Empahsis mine. I did make the assumption that there was no interest in multi-classing beyond Assassion/Shadow Monk.

It depends a lot on your starting rolls and if your DM gives you an opportunity to somehow raise your stats outside of the Level-up system.

For example, I'm playing a Wood Elf Monk 2 atm (13/17/14/11/14/12) by 4d6 drop lowest. It's only 3 points better than Point-Buy. It would take 5 ASIs to get DEX and WIS maxed with my character, and multi-classing into Warlock is a bit silly for a couple reasons: 1) Need to Get CHA to 13 for it and 2) My party already has 2 Warlocks.

I do still think Assassin Rogue 12 / Shadow Monk 6 is a good place to start, but the number of options for those last two levels are probably better spent within one of the two classes you already have at that point given whatever party composition you have at that point.

That being said, I will agree that by and large the double 2d6 Necrotic damage from Hex + Assassinate is better than the normal +1d6 Sneak Attack damage. (More Precisely, Assassin 12/ Shadow Monk 6 / Warlock 2 > Assassin 14 / Shadow Monk 6). On the other hand, you already have a lot of bonus action decisions to make:

Flurry of Blows, Shadow Step, 1 Free Unarmed Strike from Martial Arts, Step of the Wind (depending on thereading, it is situationally better than Rogue's Cunning Action for Jumping distance), Hex, Cunning Action, and a possible additional Warlock bonus action spell.

odigity

2014-11-10, 06:39 PM

Empahsis mine. I did make the assumption that there was no interest in multi-classing beyond Assassion/Shadow Monk.

Well, I did start the thread by proposing Fighter 2 as the two-level dip. Warlock is merely an alternative to that.

It depends a lot on your starting rolls and if your DM gives you an opportunity to somehow raise your stats outside of the Level-up system.

I only ever use point-buy.

Need to Get CHA to 13

I often forget about those requirements, but there's a simple solution: Start as Warlock 1.

I actually did start a character as Warlock 1 about three weeks ago. Half-elf, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 14, Cha 14. I originally intended to go Warlock 2 / Monk 18, but after reconsidering the possible synergies between Monk and Rogue, I'm now thinking of doing that instead.

On the other hand, you already have a lot of bonus action decisions to make:

Flurry of Blows, Shadow Step, 1 Free Unarmed Strike from Martial Arts, Step of the Wind (depending on thereading, it is situationally better than Rogue's Cunning Action for Jumping distance), Hex, Cunning Action, and a possible additional Warlock bonus action spell.

That's a good point. Hadn't done the work of adding up all the Bonus Action options yet, it's quite a long list. But I don't think it's overwhelming:

- Hex is only once at the beginning
- default bonus action: Flurry of Blows, unless you need one of:
- Shadow Step / Cunning Action (choose better of two for situation)

Rysan Marquise

2014-11-10, 07:12 PM

I often forget about those requirements, but there's a simple solution: Start as Warlock 1.

You forget about more than you realize. You must have the multi-class requirements of both the class you are multiclassing to, AND the class you are multiclassing from.

Starting as a class changes nothing.

Shadow

2014-11-10, 07:36 PM

I think I would much rather have the flexibility granted by a full extra action over 4 points of damage over the "average 6 round combat" <citation needed>.

That's an average of 4 points per combat in favor of the extra sneak attack die if you get a short rest between every single combat, and only if you never take any OAs.
When you factor in that you'll likely get a short rest every two or three combats, then that average 17 points offered by action surge actually becomes an average of 6.8 points of damage offered by action surge each combat.
Two sneak attacks and you're even.
Through an average combat (even when not taking any OAs into account) that puts SA ahead by 15 or so.

Then consider that in order for action surge to actually get you that 17 you need 6 levels of monk and two levels of fighter, in addition to any rogue levels possessed. You're level 9 at the absolute lowest here.
Get rid of that second fighter level in exchange for the rogue level, and as soon as you make tat decision you're getting an extra 3.5 every turn you attack.

Action surge is almost useless on a rogue. Sneak attack dice are better in every way. If the choice is between fighter 2 and rogue 13, there's no choice at all. Rogue wins.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-10, 07:45 PM

Action surge conflicts with the bonus actions rogues get every turn.

Sure, it's a nice enough bonus, but it's probably not better than just taking the levels in rogue.

Shadow

2014-11-10, 07:47 PM

Action surge conflicts with the bonus actions rogues get every turn.

Sure, it's a nice enough bonus, but it's probably not better than just taking the levels in rogue.

Action surge doesn't use your bonus action, so it doesn't conflict with anything.
But that's neither here nor there, because 1d6 sneak attack on every turn is better than (1d6+Dex)x2 once per short rest.

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-10, 07:49 PM

That's an average of 4 points per combat in favor of the extra sneak attack die if you get a short rest between every single combat, and only if you never take any OAs.
When you factor in that you'll likely get a short rest every two or three combats, then that average 17 points offered by action surge actuallt becomes an average of 6.8 points of damage offered by action surge each combat.
Two sneak attacks and you're even.
Through an average combat (even when not taking any OAs into account) that puts SA ahead by 15 or so.

Then consider that in order for action surge to actually get you that 17 you need 6 levels of monk and two levels of fighter, in addition to any rogue levels possessed. You're level 9 at the absolute lowest here.
Get rid of that second fighter level in exchange for the rogue level, and as soon as you make tat decision you're getting an extra 3.5 every turn you attack.

Action surge is almost useless on a rogue. Sneak attack dice are better in every way.

The emphasis on that particular quote was more because I have no idea on what basis you're saying that the average combat is "six rounds." Is this personal experience? Where is this number coming from?

I find it impossible for you to have sufficiently gathered up enough game-play across many different tables to find that that number is representative of the whole. The best you can do is subject to forms of bias amongst particular communities (like asking the people of the playground for their "average number of rounds" in a 5E Combat encounter.)

I don't dispute that Fighter 2 is kind of pointless on this build. But at that point, Fighter 1 is also kind of pointless. Second Wind is basically a parlor trick at that point.

I often forget about those requirements, but there's a simple solution: Start as Warlock 1.

I actually did start a character as Warlock 1 about three weeks ago. Half-elf, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 14, Cha 14. I originally intended to go Warlock 2 / Monk 18, but after reconsidering the possible synergies between Monk and Rogue, I'm now thinking of doing that instead.

You forget about more than you realize. You must have the multi-class requirements of both the class you are multiclassing to, AND the class you are multiclassing from.

Starting as a class changes nothing.

It's not really a problem for your half-elf as you meet all of them (DEX 13, WIS 13, CHA 13) , but you're skill-wise probably better off start as a Rogue: you'll pick up more of them that way. It's not like the double Hex bonus applies until Assassinate anyway. You don't actually really need that much from Warlock until you already have Darkness from Shadow Monk 3. If anything, I would say Rogue -> Warlock -> Monk.

Edit: Something like this:

Assassin Rogue 1-4 (Assassin, and first ABI)
Shadow Monk 1-6 (Extra Attack, Unarmored Movement, Darkness, ABI, etc.)
Assassin Rogue 5-6 (More Sneak Attack)
Warlock 1-2 (Hex, Magical Darkvision, EB)
Assassin Rogue 7-12 (3 more ABI's)

Shadow

2014-11-10, 07:56 PM

The emphasis on that particular quote was more because I have no idea on what basis you're saying that the average combat is "six rounds." Is this personal experience? Where is this number coming from?
<snip>
I don't dispute that Fighter 2 is kind of pointless on this build. But at that point, Fighter 1 is also kind of pointless. Second Wind is basically a parlor trick at that point.

It's from personal experience. Most encounters last 6 or 7 rounds on average.
And actually, fighter 1 is a great little splash here.
Monk 7 offers evasion (redundant), stillness of mind (useful), and one more point of ki (semi-useful).
Rogue 14 offers blindsense (useful).
Fighter 1 offers better HD (useful), a fighting style (extremely useful), and second wind (limited but extremely useful).

Fighter 1 offers more than either of the other options.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-10, 07:57 PM

Action surge doesn't use your bonus action, so it doesn't conflict with anything.
But that's neither here nor there, because 1d6 sneak attack on every turn is better than (1d6+Dex)x2 once per short rest.

Am I thinking of second wind?

Shadow

2014-11-10, 07:58 PM

Am I thinking of second wind?

yep, second wind uses your bonus

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-10, 08:08 PM

It's from personal experience. Most encounters last 6 or 7 rounds on average.

And actually, fighter 1 is a great little splash here.
Monk 7 offers evasion (redundant), stillness of mind (useful), and one more point of ki (semi-useful).
Rogue 14 offers blindsense (useful).
Fighter 1 offers better HD (useful), a fighting style (extremely useful), and second wind (limited but extremely useful).

Fighter 1 offers more than either of the other options.

Sorry, but I don't think your personal experience is representative of the whole. I don't think I've had a single combat that reached even 3 rounds in 5E. By the time everyone's third turn came around, the other side was already down or dead and we had very definitely moved onto to discussion or looting. I don't have the luxury of playing through higher levels of the game, or through as many fights as I would have liked to be able to properly dispute this, but it's entirely possible our games are taking into consideration very different concerns when building combat encounters. Which leads me to believe either your average comes with a fairly large standard deviation, or is just dead wrong.

Fighter 1 is only giving you 1 more Hit Point on average than the Monk or Rogue HD. Second Wind is only restoring 1d10+1 HP on a character with 19d8 + 1d10 + 20*CON. That's like 8ish% with minimal rolls? (CON mod is apparently starting at +2 in this build). So even assuming MINIMUM HP (20+40 = 60), you're not getting back a lot.

Edit: Of the 6 fighting styles in Fighter, 2 are absolutely no-gos (Defense, Protection) w/ Monk abilities. GWF is probably a no-go (how many two-handed Monk weapons are there?). Archery, TWF, and Dueling are solid choices, but TWF isn't that good if I remember correctly.

Did the Math: on average Fighter 1 / Monk 6 / Rogue 13 with CON 14 has 1d10 (6) + 19d8 (19*5=95) + 20*2 (40) HP or 141 HP. The ability to heal back 11 of that at most on a character with a lot of bonus action decisions already strikes me as a bit silly. I think the Warlock 2 / Monk 6 / Rogue 12 build the OP was revising is much better at the role that the build is going for (Single-Target burst damage via Stealth and Darkness). Leave the healing to Potions or a Cleric.

Shadow

2014-11-10, 08:15 PM

Fighter 1 is only giving you 1 more Hit Point on average than the Monk or Rogue HD. Second Wind is only restoring 1d10+1 HP on a character with 19d8 + 1d10 + 20*CON. That's like 8ish% with minimal rolls? (CON mod is apparently starting at +2 in this build). So even assuming MINIMUM HP (20+40 = 60), you're not getting back a lot.

Of the 6 fighting styles in Fighter, 2 are absolutely no-gos (Defense, Protection) w/ Monk abilities. GWF is probably a no-go (how many two-handed Monk weapons are there?). Archery, TWF, and Dueling are solid choices, but TWF isn't that good if I remember correctly.

Second wind may not hit for a lot, but the ability to heal yourself (at all) in combat without help or the use of magic is nothing to scoff at, even if it doesn't hit hard.

GWF works with versatile weapons, which spear and quarterstaff both are.
Dueling is the choice if your DM rules that you can't sneak attack with spear/staff even when used as a monk weapon (which effectively nakes it finesse).
GWF is the better choice if your DM rules that you can sneak attack with spear/staff. Dueling is amazing as you only need one weapon and still get a bonus action attack via martial arts.
Both are great choices.

edited to account for your edit

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-10, 08:20 PM

yep, second wind uses your bonus

Ah right then carry on

Easy_Lee

2014-11-10, 08:20 PM

Fighter 2 is better for this build than two extra levels of rogue. What a lot of people are forgetting is that fighter 2 grants a fighting style. That fighting style will be dueling. As written, it works with unarmed strikes. So the trade is 1d6 sneak attack, imposter, and blindsense vs 2 damage per strike, second wind, and action surge. It's not even a close comparison, the fighter levels are better in most situations.

The quarterstaff build is not bad, but it relies on DM fiat letting you sneak attack with a quarterstaff, and also requires an additional feat.

The question is whether an extra two levels of monk would be better. Monk 8 over monk 6 yields +2 ki, stillness of mind, and an ATI/Feat. Fighter 2 yields dueling, second wind, and one use of action surge. That's more of a trade-off.

I also question how useful this build would be while leveling up. Anyone can build a character that's strong at max level, but building one that's strong at every level is challenging.

Shadow

2014-11-10, 08:23 PM

Fighter 2 is better for this build than two extra levels of rogue. What a lot of people are forgetting is that fighter 2 grants a fighting style. That fighting style will be duelist. As written, it works with unarmed strikes. So the trade is 1d6 sneak attack, imposter, and blindsense vs 2 damage per strike, second wind, and action surge. It's not even a close comparison, the fighter levels are better in most situations.

The question is whether an extra two levels of monk would be better. Monk 8 over monk 6 yields +2 ki, stillness of mind, and an ATI/Feat. Fighter 2 yields duelist, second wind, and one use of action surge. That's more of a trade-off.

I also question how useful this build would be while leveling up. Anyone can build a character that's strong at max level, but building one that's strong at every level is challenging.

What you seem to be missing is that I'm arguing that 1 fighter is great, but fighter 2 is almost useless compared to the other sneak attack die that rogue 13 grants.

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-10, 08:29 PM

Fighter 2 is better for this build than two extra levels of rogue. What a lot of people are forgetting is that fighter 2 grants a fighting style. That fighting style will be dueling. As written, it works with unarmed strikes.

I'm not so sure about that. "When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

It seems to me more like you'd be wielding a Shortsword in one hand and be unarmed in the other and would gain the damage buff to the Shortsword so long as your other hand is free. It doesn't strike me "as written" to necessarily work with Unarmed Strikes. It sounds more like DM fiat to me.

Easy_Lee

2014-11-10, 08:29 PM

What you seem to be missing is that I'm arguing that 1 fighter is great, but fighter 2 is almost useless compared to the other sneak attack die that rogue 13 grants.

Again, that's more of a trade-off. Assassin is less sure to get sneak attack than some other forms of rogue (arcane trickster with familiar). We should assume the rogue is getting sneak attack most of the time since it's easier this edition, depending on the DM. So let's call it 3 damage per round (average is 3.5 but you won't always get it).

For fighter levels, you get a d10 hit die for that level and action surge. It gives you another action, which can be used to do literally anything. Action surge to dash three times in one round. Action surge to try hiding again because you absolutely need to. Action surge to try hitting again because you absolutely need to land sneak attack. For the price of ~3 damage, you basically get an "oh crap" button, once per short rest.

It's a trade-off, but I know what I would choose.

Shadow

2014-11-10, 09:18 PM

For fighter levels, you get a d10 hit die for that level and action surge. It gives you another action, which can be used to do literally anything. Action surge to dash three times in one round. Action surge to try hiding again because you absolutely need to. Action surge to try hitting again because you absolutely need to land sneak attack. For the price of ~3 damage, you basically get an "oh crap" button, once per short rest.

It's a trade-off, but I know what I would choose.

As a multiclass way of the shadow monk / rogue (any) you already get about a gazillion bonus actions and features to choose from and use.
Let's just look at rogue 7 / monk 6 / fighter 1.
Fighter 1 offers a bonus action heal.
Monk 6 offers deflect missles (reaction), slow fall (reaction), darkness/silence/pass (ki action), shadow step (bonus), 1d6+Dex martial arts (bonus), 1d6+Dex twice in a flurry (ki bonus), and dodge (ki bonus).
Rogue offers dash/disengage/hide (bonus), uncany dodge (reaction), and evasion, on top of whatever your rogue subclass offers.

What do you need an extra action for? You have amazing options available already. Your panic button is much better off being traded for 3-7 more average DPR in my opinion (depending on whether or not you get an OA that round).

Vintrastorm

2014-11-11, 10:48 AM

RickAllison

2016-01-19, 11:58 PM

How about, since we're talking fighter levels, rogue 11, fighter 3 (Champion)? You lose 1 feat/ASI but you gain double the chance to double your damage by critting on 19. If you attack with advantage that chance is 20% rather than 10%.

Sorry for threadnomancy, but a quick clarification on the probability:
Probability of not getting a crit on one die: 18/20 = 90%
Probability for advantage roll: (18/20)*(18/20) = 81%
So with Fighter 3 (Champion), you would have a 19% chance of getting a critical, not 20%. Small difference, but it is better to be exact in cases like this.

joaber

2016-01-20, 10:37 AM

you can go 1 lvl cleric to. get guidance, bless 2 times a day and knowledge domain for even more proficiency

RulesJD

2016-01-20, 11:01 AM

Action Surge >>>> 1 extra die of sneak attack all day, every day.

Why?

1. Action Surge and use it to Ready an attack for "right after my turn ends."
2. Your turn ends
3. Your readied action triggers, you make another attack. Guess what? It's a new turn which means you get sneak attack on your readied action.

It's a fantastic way to do a metric ton of damage in 1 round as a Fighter/Rogue, in fact it's the main reason to go 2 levels into Fighter as a Rogue.

joaber

2016-01-20, 11:45 AM

RulesJD

2016-01-20, 12:39 PM

but action surge say: "on your turn, you can take one additional action..."

Exactly. One your Turn, you gain and additional Action (capitalization is important here).

With that Action, you can do anything you could otherwise do with a normal Action. You could Extra Attack, you could Cast a Spell, you could provide the Help function you could Dodge, etc.

The Ready action is also something you could take with that additional Action. It is still an additional Action happening on your turn. You are just using the additional Action to take the Readied action (small case action).

Yes, it's 110% RAW.

I would actually argue to drop a level of Rogue from that build and at least pick up Fighter 3. Why? Riposte from Battlemaster. 1 more level of Fighter grants you a 4 times per short rest way to trigger sneak attack outside your normal turn. That's worth its weight in gold (for a melee Rogue).

bid

2016-01-21, 11:44 AM

Action Surge and use it to Ready an attack for "right after my turn ends."
Nice rule-lawyering, except it does not work since it's not a "perceivable circumstance".

RickAllison

2016-01-21, 11:52 AM

Nice rule-lawyering, except it does not work since it's not a "perceivable circumstance".

No, but all he has to do is key it off the next person in the initiative doing something and he can justify that down the list! I.e. "I ready an attack for when Alice makes some motion, either attack or movement!" With Alice presumably going before the target.

RulesJD

2016-01-21, 12:40 PM

Nice rule-lawyering, except it does not work since it's not a "perceivable circumstance".

You spelled "Wow, thank you for informing me about this new way that Rogues can benefit from level dips into Fighter" wrong.

Also, RickAllison is exactly correct. You make the triggering action something that is clearly going to happen (enemy starts to do anything except surrender, friendly prepares to attack, etc) which for all intents and purposes is the same as trigger off the next person in the initiative order.

joaber

2016-01-21, 12:40 PM

Exactly. One your Turn, you gain and additional Action (capitalization is important here).

With that Action, you can do anything you could otherwise do with a normal Action. You could Extra Attack, you could Cast a Spell, you could provide the Help function you could Dodge, etc.

The Ready action is also something you could take with that additional Action. It is still an additional Action happening on your turn. You are just using the additional Action to take the Readied action (small case action).

Yes, it's 110% RAW.

I would actually argue to drop a level of Rogue from that build and at least pick up Fighter 3. Why? Riposte from Battlemaster. 1 more level of Fighter grants you a 4 times per short rest way to trigger sneak attack outside your normal turn. That's worth its weight in gold (for a melee Rogue).

really good to know.

RickAllison

2016-01-21, 01:02 PM

You spelled "Wow, thank you for informing me about this new way that Rogues can benefit from level dips into Fighter" wrong.

Also, RickAllison is exactly correct. You make the triggering action something that is clearly going to happen (enemy starts to do anything except surrender, friendly prepares to attack, etc) which for all intents and purposes is the same as trigger off the next person in the initiative order.

Careful, a DM could with good reason rule that you cannot trigger it off a surprised enemy's turn. They cannot move and they cannot use an action, so they do not give you any triggers. Frankly, it's a little meta to key off your allies, but it is still valid within the game. This is also a great use for Haste!!