Spellfire Warlock?

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Recently I have been going through some of the sourcebooks, most notably Complete Arcane and Magic Of Faerun. And, I noticed something interesting.

Warlock has infinite magic (Eldritch Blast) That they can use once per round. It's the equivalent of a spell equal to 1/2 the Warlock's class level, minimum 1, max 9.

Then I saw the Spellfire Wielder feat and the Spellfire Channeler and Spellfire Heirophant PrC's. Spellfire lets you absorb magic as if your body was a Rod Of Absorption and use it to fire destructive blasts that deal 1d6 per spell level used or you can heal people (including yourself) by touch, for 2 points per spell level expended.

Now, the interesting thing about Rods Of Absorption is that they also let you use the spell levels of magic energy stored within them to fuel your own spells without expending the spells from memory or the spell per day slot.

And since Warlock has infinite magic... Could a Warlock/(Cleric or Wizard, but any caster really) absorb his own Eldritch Blast to gain the appropriate amount of Spellfire levels and then use them to cast their spells without expending them, infinitely? Could they "charge up" after resting by absorbing their EB until they reach their maximum number of Spellfire levels and just "recharge" as they go throughout the day?

In theory, this would work, despite probably being a bit broken. It was an interesting, although sinister, idea that came to me at random while reading through these sourcebooks, and I'd like to see what you guys think. Would it work? Or is it too far-fetched?

[Rater202]

Works by RAW, but don't try it unless the GM has permitted Cheese

[Fax Celestis]

Kind of maybe doesn't really work. Spell-like abilities (of which invocations are) are not actual spells.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Kind of maybe doesn't really work. Spell-like abilities (of which invocations are) are not actual spells.

It may not work but it should. Spell-like abilities are still magic energy and don't function within a antimagic zone, so.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Works by RAW, but don't try it unless the GM has permitted Cheese

Oh yes, the permissions thing was insinuated. I was just thinking I should ask a group opinion before I asked, that way I didn't embarrass myself or anything.

[tyckspoon]

2 reasons it doesn't actually work: First reason, Spellfire doesn't do what you hope it does. You don't function as a Rod of Absorption - you can just absorb spells. No other function of the Rod is available to you. What you can actually *do* with Spellfire is defined in the next section. You can throw it as a blast, or you can do a pretty lame heal. That's it (Spellfire Channeler prestige adds some uses, but none of them are 'turn it into a spell'.) Second, you have to Ready an action to absorb magic with spellfire, and that usually means you don't have a spare action to hit yourself with your magic. You generally require a partner to charge you up.

Given those restrictions, yes, it works, and it's about the only way to make decent use of Spellfire, but even when you have a way to have a full charge for every down-time period the uses of Spellfire are limited and weak enough that it's not terribly overpowered. You can throw (Con)d6 damage at a single enemy once per fight. Woohoo. Or you can be a Spellfire Channeler, in which case you can actually put out some respectable damage with their multi-blast feature, but that means you're walking around with dangerously high levels of spellfire all the time. Oh, and you sacrificed 8+ levels into being a Spellfire Channeler.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

2 reasons it doesn't actually work: First reason, Spellfire doesn't do what you hope it does. You don't function as a Rod of Absorption - you can just absorb spells. No other function of the Rod is available to you. What you can actually *do* with Spellfire is defined in the next section. You can throw it as a blast, or you can do a pretty lame heal. That's it (Spellfire Channeler prestige adds some uses, but none of them are 'turn it into a spell'.) Second, you have to Ready an action to absorb magic with spellfire, and that usually means you don't have a spare action to hit yourself with your magic. You generally require a partner to charge you up.

Given those restrictions, yes, it works, and it's about the only way to make decent use of Spellfire, but even when you have a way to have a full charge for every down-time period the uses of Spellfire are limited and weak enough that it's not terribly overpowered. You can throw (Con)d6 damage at a single enemy once per fight. Woohoo. Or you can be a Spellfire Channeler, in which case you can actually put out some respectable damage with their multi-blast feature, but that means you're walking around with dangerously high levels of spellfire all the time. Oh, and you sacrificed 8+ levels into being a Spellfire Channeler.

Quote from Magic Of Faerun: "A spellfire wielder can ready an action to absorb spells targeted at her as if she were a Rod of Absorption. " Yes, it only says "absorbs as", it still mentions the Rod and could be interpreted that way. Again it all falls back to RAW vs RAI. Which drives me crazy XD

[dysprosium]

Quote from Magic Of Faerun: "A spellfire wielder can ready an action to absorb spells targeted at her as if she were a Rod of Absorption. " Yes, it only says "absorbs as", it still mentions the Rod and could be interpreted that way. Again it all falls back to RAW vs RAI. Which drives me crazy XD

What you have to remember is that Magic of Faerun is a 3.0 book and the way a rod of absorption worked changed between the 3.0 and 3.5 update. Unfortunately spellfire did not get the same update.

tyckspoon is correct in his analysis.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

What you have to remember is that Magic of Faerun is a 3.0 book and the way a rod of absorption worked changed between the 3.0 and 3.5 update. Unfortunately spellfire did not get the same update.

tyckspoon is correct in his analysis.

Yes, he is correct, I'll give him that much.

I would still like to at least try with the idea, and again it all comes down to RAW vs. RAI and what the DM allows. Some DM's wouldn't let this within 5 miles of their campaign and others would willingly give it a shot.

Another way to make it work would be to actually come up with an alternate class feature set for Warlock, removing the Invocations, DR, ER and Fiendish Resilience in favor of some more Spellfire-oriented powers - Spellfire and the Warlock's abilities are both innate abilities after all.

[atemu1234]

Works by RAW, but don't try it unless the GM has permitted Cheese

This, basically.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

This, basically.

Yup. Exactly.

[tyckspoon]

Yes, he is correct, I'll give him that much.

I would still like to at least try with the idea, and again it all comes down to RAW vs. RAI and what the DM allows. Some DM's wouldn't let this within 5 miles of their campaign and others would willingly give it a shot.

Another way to make it work would be to actually come up with an alternate class feature set for Warlock, removing the Invocations, DR, ER and Fiendish Resilience in favor of some more Spellfire-oriented powers - Spellfire and the Warlock's abilities are both innate abilities after all.

Well, if you want to argue with your DM that you work 'as a Rod of Absorption', be prepared to deal with the full text of the Rod.. like only ever being able to absorb 50 levels. Max. In your character's entire existence. :smalltongue:

But yeah, I'd be all in favor of making Spellfire less useless, and an actual Spellfire Warlock sub level/alternate class/prestige class would make perfect sense for Forgotten Realms (actually, thinking about it, Hellfire Warlock would work just fine with a bit of reskinning.) Spellfire Channeler itself would also be ok if you just added on something like Legacy Champion's 'advance existing class feature' progression, and maybe add an ability to absorb reactively/more quickly in there to make it more combat-useful; perhaps let you ready to absorb a single effect as a swift instead of a standard or respond to a spell by absorbing it as an Immediate.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Well, if you want to argue with your DM that you work 'as a Rod of Absorption', be prepared to deal with the full text of the Rod.. like only ever being able to absorb 50 levels. Max. In your character's entire existence. :smalltongue:

But yeah, I'd be all in favor of making Spellfire less useless, and an actual Spellfire Warlock sub level/alternate class/prestige class would make perfect sense for Forgotten Realms (actually, thinking about it, Hellfire Warlock would work just fine with a bit of reskinning.) Spellfire Channeler itself would also be ok if you just added on something like Legacy Champion's 'advance existing class feature' progression, and maybe add an ability to absorb reactively/more quickly in there to make it more combat-useful; perhaps let you ready to absorb a single effect as a swift instead of a standard or respond to a spell by absorbing it as an Immediate.

I'm currently building a Spellfire Warlock Alternate Class Feature as we speak. It'll be done in about 30 minutes.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

I'm currently building a Spellfire Warlock Alternate Class Feature as we speak. It'll be done in about 30 minutes.

Done and done.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OfRN4YJkMdi1EcNwtDqVzn8xdKERR5D4aoS8CNBTp9w/edit?usp=sharing

[ShurikVch]

To fuel your spells with absorbed energy, you need Incantifier PrC from Dragon #339
This Planescape-specific PrC (5/3 progression) turn your body into a magic item, so you don't need to eat, drink, and sleep anymore, and live forever, but stop heal naturally (to heal you need absorb magic)
At 3rd level you get ability to fuel your spellcasting with absorbed energy, and cannibalize magic items for healing; at 5th you can drain magic from items to fuel your spellcasting; also couple of bonus metamagic feats and SR 20+Incantifier's level

[Rystil Xilvertr]

To fuel your spells with absorbed energy, you need Incantifier PrC from Dragon #339
This Planescape-specific PrC (5/3 progression) turn your body into a magic item, so you don't need to eat, drink, and sleep anymore, and live forever, but stop heal naturally (to heal you need absorb magic)
At 3rd level you get ability to fuel your spellcasting with absorbed energy, and cannibalize magic items for healing; at 5th you can drain magic from items to fuel your spellcasting; also couple of bonus metamagic feats and SR 20+Incantifier's level

I have never heard of this before o.o And besides, this character concept is Forgotten Realms-specific anyway.

[TheCrowing1432]

Hmm, seems just as reasonable as an Undead Dread Necromancer touching themselves to heal.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Hmm, seems just as reasonable as an Undead Dread Necromancer touching themselves to heal.

Which seems pretty reasonable, actually.

[otakumick]

I have never heard of this before o.o And besides, this character concept is Forgotten Realms-specific anyway.

The Realms connect to planescape just as well as any other setting(better than dark sun, thats for sure)

[Rystil Xilvertr]

The Realms connect to planescape just as well as any other setting(better than dark sun, thats for sure)

*Shrugs* Well, I'd prefer to stick with the material I'm familiar with, in this case. I've been into Forgotten Realms specifically for years, it and the core stuff.

[LordErebus12]

It's the equivalent of a spell equal to 1/2 the Warlock's class level, minimum 1, max 9.

I think this was errata'd to function as a 1st level spell, unless invocations modified the spell level of the Spell-Like Ability: Eldritch Blast.

[atemu1234]

Hmm, seems just as reasonable as an Undead Dread Necromancer touching themselves to heal.

Careful, you'll go blind.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

I think this was errata'd to function as a 1st level spell, unless invocations modified the spell level of the Spell-Like Ability: Eldritch Blast.

Quote from Complete Arcane: " An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level. An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a spell whose level is equal to one-half the warlock’s class level (round down), with a minimum spell level of 1st and a maximum of 9th when a warlock reaches 18th level or higher. "

[Bad Wolf]

Done and done.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OfRN4YJkMdi1EcNwtDqVzn8xdKERR5D4aoS8CNBTp9w/edit?usp=sharing

Nice. :smallbiggrin:

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Nice. :smallbiggrin:

What do you think? Any improvements/adjustments you can see I need to make?

[Mr Adventurer]

Quote from Complete Arcane
What part of "errata" didn't you get?

[LordErebus12]

What part of "errata" didn't you get?

To quote Rich Baker:

Begin Q&A

Just wanted to give you all a heads-up on a couple of pieces of errata for the warlock. We're not quite ready to turn out the full errata file for Complete Arcane (there's always some, as you know), but there are two things that have really been bugging me and I want to let you know about them.

1. Eldritch blast is an invocation and is subject to the arcane spell failure chance of any other invocation if you wear medium or heavy armor. On page 8, under Warlock Invocations, ignore the bold header "Invocations and Eldritch Blast."

2. Eldritch blast is equivalent to a 1st-level spell (or the spell level equivalent of any blast shape or eldritch essence you attach to it). So, you'll be able to use the Empower Spell-like Ability, etc., feats to modify your eldritch blast if you wish. On page 7, under Eldritch Blast, 2nd paragraph, just change the last sentence to read, "An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell, unless modified by a blast shape or eldritch essence."

Sorry about the confusion; we'll have our standard errata information assembled soon, and we'll make it available as quickly as possible. I just wanted to get this in front of you folks, since you've been asking a lot of questions about it.

End Quote.

Naturally this is an old post of his, but ftr, if you look at the Complete Arcane errata from the wizards site, you'll find this correction there, too. Also, its been updated on Dndtools, which is updated with all official errata, as far as i know.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/warlock/

[Rystil Xilvertr]

What part of "errata" didn't you get?

*Sighs* Alright, it's bad enough I feel stupid for even bothering to post this idea to a forum in the first place, please don't make it worse. I asked for ideas and constructive criticism, not for....Whatever that was supposed to be. Thank you.

Anyway, I was going by the Warlock from Complete Arcane, I was not aware of the errata, but, the way it is written out in Complete Arcane makes more sense to me in the fact that as it increases in damage, it also becomes harder to resist (at least when a Blast Shape invocation is applied, and I know, yes, the Blast Shape/Blast Essence invocations change the effective level, but still - there's no reason a Burst Eldritch Blast used by a lower-level Warlock would be just as powerful as one used by a 20th-level Warlock.

Again, thank you for your criticism.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

To quote Rich Baker:

Begin Q&A

Just wanted to give you all a heads-up on a couple of pieces of errata for the warlock. We're not quite ready to turn out the full errata file for Complete Arcane (there's always some, as you know), but there are two things that have really been bugging me and I want to let you know about them.

1. Eldritch blast is an invocation and is subject to the arcane spell failure chance of any other invocation if you wear medium or heavy armor. On page 8, under Warlock Invocations, ignore the bold header "Invocations and Eldritch Blast."

2. Eldritch blast is equivalent to a 1st-level spell (or the spell level equivalent of any blast shape or eldritch essence you attach to it). So, you'll be able to use the Empower Spell-like Ability, etc., feats to modify your eldritch blast if you wish. On page 7, under Eldritch Blast, 2nd paragraph, just change the last sentence to read, "An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell, unless modified by a blast shape or eldritch essence."

Sorry about the confusion; we'll have our standard errata information assembled soon, and we'll make it available as quickly as possible. I just wanted to get this in front of you folks, since you've been asking a lot of questions about it.

End Quote.

Naturally this is an old post of his, but ftr, if you look at the Complete Arcane errata from the wizards site, you'll find this correction there, too. Also, its been updated on Dndtools, which is updated with all official errata, as far as i know.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/warlock/


*Sighs* Thank you. Thanks for reminding me to check my facts before getting excited over an idea that was pointless to ask anyone about anyway.
That's even the site I used for my other references on my other post, too. Ugh.
Thanks again, needed that constructive criticism.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Alright, SO. This doesn't change my Spellfire Warlock idea, except for how long it takes to charge, which actually makes a great balancing factor to counter the fact that you effectively have infinite spells.

[Bad Wolf]

What do you think? Any improvements/adjustments you can see I need to make?

Everything seems fine, though having all types of energy for Spellfire seems a bit unbalanced. Maybe grant Positive and Negative based on alignment (their choice for neutral warlocks), and have the rest staggered out over the twenty levels?

[Mr Adventurer]

*Sighs* Alright, it's bad enough I feel stupid for even bothering to post this idea to a forum in the first place, please don't make it worse. I asked for ideas and constructive criticism, not for....Whatever that was supposed to be. Thank you.

Anyway, I was going by the Warlock from Complete Arcane, I was not aware of the errata, but, the way it is written out in Complete Arcane makes more sense to me in the fact that as it increases in damage, it also becomes harder to resist (at least when a Blast Shape invocation is applied, and I know, yes, the Blast Shape/Blast Essence invocations change the effective level, but still - there's no reason a Burst Eldritch Blast used by a lower-level Warlock would be just as powerful as one used by a 20th-level Warlock.

Again, thank you for your criticism.

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself man, you just made a mistake.

[LordErebus12]

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself man, you just made a mistake.

I agree. We'd rather you come up with a way to do what you wanted, using the actual rules in a legit, non-broken way. We're not trying to be a pain in your butt, we're trying to guide you down the path of awesomeness. We just have to lay the ground rules, so to speak.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Thanks guys. I've just had a rough patch over the past few days anyway. So, moving on.

Yes, the Positive/Negative should be based on alignment, and giving all the energy types at once seems unfair. So, the default will be raw energy, just like Eldritch Blast, and the player can choose one new type of energy at first level and every level divisible by 3.

And, actually, now that I look at it, the slow charging factor makes it a much more interesting class; they would have to rely more on absorbing enemy magic than their own, but they'd still have that capability, and taking a few levels in Spellfire Channeler would make it rather interesting.

Something that bugs me, however, about SfC is that it doesn't give any increase in caster level, or any class ability levels, at all (Despite being a magic-based PrC). Perhaps it should give 2/3 CL/ML/IL progression if you already have a CL/ML/IL and if you don't, then the other abilities (Healing, damage, and the base stuff - BAB, Saves, HD, etc.) should be buffed to compensate.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Can you use Invocations to charge up instead? If so, DFA/SFW FTW! Maximize my CON baby! Con for HP, Fort, BW D, and # of SF levels stored.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Can you use Invocations to charge up instead? If so, DFA/SFW FTW! Maximize my CON baby! Con for HP, Fort, BW D, and # of SF levels stored.

Actually, if you look at one of my older posts where I posted the link to the Google Document, I replaced the invocations and all the other Warlock class features except Eldritch Blast and Deceive Item with the ability to cast spells as a Sorcerer (Cha for max spell level known, and spell DC's), but your Con is how many levels of spell energy you can put toward those spells; making it much like Psion, except you have a limited supply and have to recharge.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Actually, if you look at one of my older posts where I posted the link to the Google Document, I replaced the invocations and all the other Warlock class features except Eldritch Blast and Deceive Item with the ability to cast spells as a Sorcerer (Cha for max spell level known, and spell DC's), but your Con is how many levels of spell energy you can put toward those spells; making it much like Psion, except you have a limited supply and have to recharge.

Yes, but I was suggesting DFA=Dragonfire Adept instead. For more CON synergy. Though I fear Invocations probably would not work this way with Spellfire Wielder. And certainly the DFA's Breath Weapon would not. What does everyone else say? Invocation+Spellfire=Win or is it a No-Go?

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Yes, but I was suggesting DFA=Dragonfire Adept instead. For more CON synergy. Though I fear Invocations probably would not work this way with Spellfire Wielder. And certainly the DFA's Breath Weapon would not. What does everyone else say? Invocation+Spellfire=Win or is it a No-Go?

As noted before, Eldritch blast IS an invocation, it's just one that comes with the class, whereas the player gets to choose the other ones.

So yes, in conjunction with Spellfire Warlock, it would work - you could use the higher-level invocations to fuel your Spellfire and potentially any spells you may have from other class levels.

Unfortunately, as also noted before, Spellfire Wielder, RAW, only works with spells, and invocations are spell-like abilities rather than spells. That's the entire reason I invented my Spellfire Warlock ACF.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

.

Roger that.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Roger that.

You're welcome.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Another weird question just came to mind. Its about Spellfire and the Abjurant Champion PrC. The 4th-level ability, Arcane Boost, lets you burn uncast spells/spell slots for some rather meager boosts that you could otherwise get with the appropriate spells.

Would an Abjurant Champion with Spellfire be able to burn Spellfire levels instead?