Everyone Supernatural

[Milo v3]

I've seen arguments on the forums that mundane characters shouldn't exist, by simple fact that player characters are meant to be the opposite of mundane with wanting martial to do things that superpass what is realistically possible. I've seen things like the Mythos classes, which attempt to make high tier martial classes that can do a hell of a lot with the reason being They are a walking personification of an archetype, others have given mythic ranks to non-casters, while others have suggested giving half-casting to all classes, and I've seen in a few d20 modern classes where the mundane non-magic character suddenly gets supernatural powers because they're skills eventually get to levels of "he's just that good".

So, what is your opinion on mundane characters, and every class having some supernatural element eventually as it advances?

[Blackhawk748]

I've seen arguments on the forums that mundane characters shouldn't exist, by simple fact that player characters are meant to be the opposite of mundane with wanting martial to do things that superpass what is realistically possible. I've seen things like the Mythos classes, which attempt to make high tier martial classes that can do a hell of a lot with the reason being They are a walking personification of an archetype, others have given mythic ranks to non-casters, while others have suggested giving half-casting to all classes, and I've seen in a few d20 modern classes where the mundane non-magic character suddenly gets supernatural powers because they're skills eventually get to levels of "he's just that good".

So, what is your opinion on mundane characters, and every class having some supernatural element eventually as it advances?

Meh? I mean its kinda nice, but personally im all for just being a flippin amazing swordsmen. I mean there were actual swordsmen who did things that are absolutely nuts and could almost be called supernatural.

[icefractal]

It makes things simpler, certainly, in terms of giving people the abilities they need to stay relevant. I think a lot of people find "look, eventually you're going to grow dragon wings or some ****, deal with it" less jarring than "jumping well enough lets you straight-up fly, that's how it works".

Personally, I find the distinction a little redundant, because (for a game like D&D), I prefer a more mythical world, in general. That is - the world isn't "like real life except with magic glued on". It operates by different principles - the sun really is being pushed across the sky by a giant beetle, diseases really are caused by evil spirits, and so forth. So in that context, it's not inconsistent that being skilled enough could let you tame and ride the storms, or steal someone's shadow, or a lot of other things.

[Extra Anchovies]

A quick way to go about making mundanes supernatural is to give them all four-level casting (following the same progression as the Paladin or Ranger). At any point before they get their casting, they choose whether they'll use:
A) the Paladin list
B) the Ranger list
C) the Assassin list
D) the Blackguard list

Alternately, if you want to fix the casting based on class, give the sneaky-types (Rogue, Ninja) the Assassin spell list, give nature-types (Barbarian, Scout, etc) the Ranger list, and all others get either Paladin or Blackguard, depending on alignment (unless the player can make a good enough case for getting Assassin or Ranger casting).

To compensate for the Ranger and Paladin's loss of niche protection, give them one extra spell per day of each level. Their caster level, along with the CL of all other formerly-mundane classes, is level-3.

[torrasque666]

All that does is turn the casters v mundanes imbalance into casters v worse casters.

At least give the original half-casters spontaneity as well. It further defines them and separates them into their own niche.

[The Insanity]

I'm mundane IRL. I don't want/need to be mundane in a fantasy game.

[Arbane]

I'm mundane IRL. I don't want/need to be mundane in a fantasy game.

This. A large part of the problem is D&D's general attitude of 'No, you can't do Cool Stuff unless you have magic spells or items (or know kung-fu, for some reason)'.

But this gets back to the point that at high levels, the spellcasters are summoning demons, making their own mini-universes, reading minds, predicting the future, and teleporting halfway around the world. The only way the non-casters are going to keep up is to do the kinds of crazy things seen in Exalted or really high-budget Wuxia movies.

[Milo v3]

All that does is turn the casters v mundanes imbalance into casters v worse casters.

Which IS better than it was, since that imbalance would be much smaller. Giving spellcasting en-mass would give tonnes of extra utility to a lot of classes and allow rogues to disappear at least as well as any wizard.

[BWR]

Not my cup of tea. I'm perfectly fine with mundanes being mundane and not Exalted. Caster/mundane divide isn't a big problem in our games.

[weckar]

If I wanted to play a caster, I'd play a caster.
If I wanted to play a half-caster, I'd play a half caster.

I rolled a mundane, though. So let me do my thing having an actually significant number of skill points, while you take the boring approach by letting some power do the work for you.

[Necroticplague]

I rolled a mundane, though. So let me do my thing having an actually significant number of skill points, while you take the boring approach by letting some power do the work for you.

Wait, hold on, the approach where you have a relatively weak, passive ability that is unlimited in use is somehow more interesting than a finite resource you have to ration and decide when to use? Funny, I always thought having to actually make choices was interesting.

[Eldan]

Supernatural is a slippery word. I mean, "super" here meaning beyond, "natural" from "nature", which in the end just means "everything that exists". So, "supernatural" is "something which doesn't exist".

I don't think anyone denies that even mid-level non-magical characters can do things that aren't really feasible in our world. So, by certain definitions, they are supernatural indeed.

A "level" should be more or less a summary of a character's power and versatility. Otherwise, what's the point? So yes, high level nonmagical should do crazy stuff.

Note that that doesn't mean they should get the same mechanics as casters. THere's plenty of ways to solve this.

[weckar]

What can I say, I put the ability in reliability.

[Vaz]

Wait, hold on, the approach where you have a relatively weak, passive ability that is unlimited in use is somehow more interesting than a finite resource you have to ration and decide when to use? Funny, I always thought having to actually make choices was interesting.

Yeah, how dare he have personal preference in how he plays the game! How dare he.

[Milo v3]

Yeah, how dare he have personal preference in how he plays the game! How dare he.

Well he did say we were taking the boring option letting a power do it for us, not sure how it's wrong to argue that it isn't a boring approach.

[NEO|Phyte]

Why would you need to add (Su) to things when (Ex) is already explicitly able to not be physically possible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities)?

[The Insanity]

If I wanted to play a caster, I'd play a caster.
If I wanted to play a half-caster, I'd play a half caster.

I rolled a mundane, though. So let me do my thing having an actually significant number of skill points, while you take the boring approach by letting some power do the work for you.
Characters stop being mundane around 6th level.
Also, if you really want to be mundane you can just take the Expert class. Plenty mundane, lots of skills, no "boring" abilities.


Why would you need to add (Su) to things when (Ex) is already explicitly able to not be physically possible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities)?
Because "not physically possible" doesn't mean magical? There's a significant difference between what Ex does and what Su does. Ex stretches or bends physics, Su completely ignores or even rewrites them.

[Psyren]

Which IS better than it was, since that imbalance would be much smaller. Giving spellcasting en-mass would give tonnes of extra utility to a lot of classes and allow rogues to disappear at least as well as any wizard.

^ Yep. As I've said in previous threads - rogues should get some combination of Shadowdancer, Assassin and Chameleon abilities for free just by being high level rogues. Barbarian rage powers and totem abilities should have the fetters lifted as you go up also - things like Spell Sunder should be more common and not constrained by the need to rage cycle. High level Fighters should get some analogue of War Mind abilities as a combination of Ex and Su, as well as gaining some form of the Samurai's Resolve ability, and possibly gaining Leadership.



Because "not physically possible" doesn't mean magical? There's a significant difference between what Ex does and what Su does. Ex stretches or bends physics, Su completely ignores or even rewrites them.

^ This as well. For example, I would never consider a shadowdancer's ability to step through shadows or clone themselves to be Ex. It's a fuzzy and even arbitrary line in some places but nevertheless I know it when I see it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I like non-casting classes, I hesitate to call them mundane, just the way they are. Don't get me wrong, I like casters just fine too. The two play very differently from one another and that's a good thing.

Sometimes I want to bend reality to my will with all the interesting complexity that entails on the personal level but sometimes I just want to hit things with a pointy stick and leave the complexity to the situations I slog into with my limited resources.

Since non-casters often pick up the occasional SU or SLA they do often end up slightly supernatural anyway but I like having the option, albeit a very restrictive one, to play a character with no innate ties to the supernatural. More challenge is more fun.