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Lord Lemming
2014-11-10, 08:41 PM
And it didn't even start in a tavern.

Well, technically, it wasn't my first session as a DM, but considering how our previous attempts were all sporadic and short-lived at best, it may as well have been. In any case, our party consisted of three level 1 characters: a chaotic quirky gnome bard played by a person more interested in role playing than combat (fine by me); a suicidal violent human barbarian with 16 HP, 2d6+12 damage and obscenely lucky rolls, with a player who is mostly interested in killing things (fine by me) and almost no sense of self-preservation (not quite so fine by me). Finally, we have a lawful good human cleric played by our most experienced player who keeps trying to reason with orcs. (We're playing Pathfinder, BTW)

So the party was traveling with a caravan of farmers heading along the north road to the coast town of Latherbay, when they were ambushed by an overwhelming number of orcs and captured. The purpose of this whole sequence was just to set up the adventure, so there was no reasonable way to win the encounter. Now, this is something I was a bit leery about doing, actually. On one hand, I'm not making this a 'do it my way or TPK' sequence, the party is swarmed by about 30 orcs and subdued with nonlethal damage along with the rest of the farmers, and the orcs are more or less a mechanism to transport the party to the next section. On the other hand, for the first 30 minutes of the game, the party didn't really have any agency in the game. What do you guys think, is this an acceptable way to start an adventure?

The gnome bard hides for the beginning of the fight, then gives up when she is discovered. The cleric leaps atop his combat-trained bison (?) and is immediately knocked out by a lucky hit, having only 8 hit points. The barbarian on the other hand immediately kills three orcs before being totally surrounded, and then disarmed by the leader of the orc band (half-orc fighter 3). She then proceeds to throw a javelin at the half-orc for most of his hit points, before being subdued.

Next, the party and the famers are taken to the orc camp, a cave with one main chamber with a great pit in the center, and two adjoining chambers. They are stripped of their gear and thrown into one of these adjoining chambers, told that they are now slaves, and any defiance will result in them being fed to the wolves, and locked in. And here is where the adventure actually begins, because now it's on the players to find a way to either escape on their own, or somehow manage to overcome 20-ish orcs in order to rescue the farmers as well. While the number of orcs in the initial engagement was very non-specific, after this point there are a limited number of enemies to deal with: 20 orc warrior 1s, 2 orc warrior 2s, and 1 half-orc fighter 3. In addition, the orcs have 3 wolves kept in kennels. Obviously, the party doesn't have a chance of taking the enemy in direct combat, but that's the point of the mission; they get to use their wits and the environment to try and find their way out. Does this sound like a mission at all appropriate for three 1st level characters?

The gnome bard amuses the half-orc leader with her quirkiness and is considered a non-threat. She finds a hidden, small-sized fissure in the cave walls that leads to the half-orc's chamber and steals back a couple of daggers and the cleric's divine focus. The cleric tries to reason (?) with the orcs and convince them of the virtues of civilization. He is unsuccessful, but gains a measure of respect from the half-orc leader, and through the diplomacy skill manages to improve his attitude to indifferent. The barbarian is thrown, stripped of her armor and weapons and at 7 hp, into the fighting pit for the orcs' amusement. Her opponent is a fully armed and armored orc looking to whip her into unconsciousness to prove his strength. The barbarian knocks his head off with a half-burnt piece of firewood. She then proceeds to kill one of the wolves and another orc before being subdued again. This impresses the half-orc leader, her throws her back into the prison. Afterwards, the group sneakily manages to kill one of their guards and hide his body with the cleric's decompose body spell. Once again, the kill was made by the barbarian, who snapped his neck with her bare hands (and not even in rage!)

So, the odds aren't really as badly against the party as they look. The orcs are stupid, the party has several tools at their disposal to wreak havoc, and the barbarian is scary good at killing things. So, opinions? Does this sound like a disaster in the making, or is this something you would try?

Kid Jake
2014-11-10, 08:52 PM
It looks like an interesting set up and win or lose, if they enjoy the ride then you did alright.

Alberic Strein
2014-11-10, 09:19 PM
But it did start in a prison, after a fashion.

So, my 2 cents:

Find a way to make the bard and barbarian players into friends.

1) Orcs as a plot device.

I tend to think the idea is bad. A player who sees a carriage sees a way to get around. A player who sees orcs sees opposition, desires to fight and win against the opposition and tends to react badly when faced with what they perceive to be an unwinnable encounter. Also, a 30-orc ambush and the caravan fell right in? But hey, in your case it worked, so all is good.

2) Is the mission appropriate for the characters

I'd say. The opposition is clearly extremely strong and it could definitely go haywire with a few bad rolls, but as long as they don't oppose the enemy head on the difficulty is okay. You even worked a way for the barbarian, whose best skill is violence, to contribute, which is gravy.

3) Disaster in the making, or fun?

Well, as far as disasters go, this one seems pretty nice. My one misgiving is about the very high damage orcs tend to have, which can mean death with a few bad rolls. I like to let my players get some more meat on their bones before having them confront great axes, but hey, for now it works. It does seem fun, even though I don't really buy into the first part.

Also, try to speak with your cleric.

Lord Lemming
2014-11-10, 09:36 PM
But it did start in prison, after a fashion.

Heh, true enough.

Find a way to make the bard and barbarian players into friends.

They are, in fact, best friends already. :smallwink:

1) Orcs as a plot device.

I tend to think the idea is bad. A player who sees a carriage sees a way to get around. A player who sees orcs sees opposition, desires to fight and win against the opposition and tends to react badly when faced with what they perceive to be an unwinnable encounter. Also, a 30-orc ambush and the caravan fell right in? But hey, in your case it worked, so all is good.

That's kind of what I thought. I'll ask them about it, and if they don't like it I'll try to avoid it in the future.

My one misgiving is about the very high damage orcs tend to have, which can mean death with a few bad rolls. I like to let my players get some more meat on their bones before having them confront great axes, but hey, for now it works. It does seem fun, even though I don't really buy into the first part.

Yeah, that probably wasn't such a great idea on my part. I probably could've gone with goblins or hobgoblins and it would've worked just as well, with fewer one-hit-knockouts for the cleric.

Also, try to speak with your cleric.

I've got nothing against his style of play, it's just not really what I had in mind for this adventure. Thing is, while my initial reaction is to modify my adventures in the future to better allow for his kind of play... I've got three kinds of players to work with. The barbarian and the cleric are polar opposites in terms of play style, and the bard isn't so much in the middle as she is shooting off in a random direction while belting out the tune of the Hamster Dance song. I can't really think of a way to reconcile those play styles.

Kid Jake
2014-11-10, 10:01 PM
Obviously the solution is to have the cleric engage in tense diplomatic proceedings with the Orc leaders while the barbarian turns the rest of the bandits into decorative rugs. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, so long as neither side resents the other for stepping on their toes you shouldn't have a problem letting them do their own thing. You really only have to worry if the barbarian murders her way through the clerics negotiations or if the cleric tries to reason with displacer beasts instead of getting his hands dirty.

jedipotter
2014-11-10, 11:59 PM
So, the odds aren't really as badly against the party as they look. The orcs are stupid, the party has several tools at their disposal to wreak havoc, and the barbarian is scary good at killing things. So, opinions? Does this sound like a disaster in the making, or is this something you would try?

The adventure sounds fine. I don't see a problem. I don't see any ''disaster''.

What were you worried about?

Lord Lemming
2014-11-11, 12:02 AM
The adventure sounds fine. I don't see a problem. I don't see any ''disaster''.

What were you worried about?

Mainly just inexperience on my part. I've read through the 'Worst DMs Ever' thread, and I don't want to get into bad habits.

Kamai
2014-11-11, 12:13 AM
1) Is this an acceptable way to start the adventure?
This is very much on the group, but if it were me, I would just want the cutscene with some input on what it looked like. If the dice go down on the table, there should be some way to win, some way out, or some positive consequence for partially succeeding. This looks like none of these are true.
On the other hand, when I ran a module that started in such a cutscene, I had players ask to play it out, so YMMV.

2)Is this appropriate for 1st level characters?
It's clear from the description afterwards that you gave them ways out that they could interact with, so yes it is appropriate for 1st level characters. Just keep in mind who such a scenario messes with the most, and be willing to throw them an extra bone, but you did seem to keep that in mind with the cleric.

3) Is this a situation that I would try?
Personally, I'd rather run the situation as enslavement into an arena or work camp. I like the general idea, but I'd rather not start the campaign like this with a race that's traditionally evil, only because X is always evil is not a subthread I like to promote. This is just stylistic, and would be basically filing off the numbers.

Gnome Alone
2014-11-11, 12:13 AM
This isn't even in the top 200 worst DMing stories I've seen.

Ok, maybe "orc ambush" is a little railroady, but I figure if you're ever gonna choo-choo it, it'd be at the start of the campaign. Right? Gotta have an ad hoc start somewhere.

I mean, I've seen plenty of plots that just start with something like a shipwreck; the way I see it, your campaign starts as a jailbreak story, it just had a nice flashy cutscene battle at the start.

It also sounds really fun. I'd love to play in something like that.

Anxe
2014-11-11, 12:59 AM
This sort of thing is typical for getting a diverse group of PCs to work together because it works. A shared threat brings people together. Then if that threat is connected to another threat, the group stays together to deal with the next threat. Then the next threat is connected to a third and so on... Eventually you have a campaign that all started when they were enslaved by orcs.

I've tried the whole prison thing with my players before and they haven't liked it. Your players might be different though. You should really be asking them if they enjoyed it, not us. Right now you're doing a good job in my book because all of the players actions have been getting them at least some rewards. The Cleric is on good terms with the Orc Leader. The Barbarian is getting a substantial body count. The Bard stole them their weapons and stuff back. They've all contributed. Just keep up the idea of everyone getting to do something with an occasional spotlight on someone (seems to be the Barbarian spotlight in this session to me). No blunders at all. Just stuff that some groups might like and others wouldn't.

jedipotter
2014-11-11, 01:38 AM
Mainly just inexperience on my part. I've read through the 'Worst DMs Ever' thread, and I don't want to get into bad habits.


In a general sense, you should just avoid ''capture/prison'' plotlines. Sure they sound fun, but D&D is not really made for this type of play. You radically change the game if you take away a characters stuff, but it's kinda off to let them keep it... Most of the time, I only do the ''prison plot'' if the players agree a head of time or if i'm playing with good players that i know would like it.


The real question is....did the players have fun? Do the DM have fun?

lytokk
2014-11-11, 10:13 AM
Honestly, I don't see any problems with the way the session was handled. Everyone got to do their own thing, no toes stepped on, and it didn't seem to be that anyone was flat out denied the chance to do what they want (but would need your players feedback for that).

First sessions always have a tendancy to be a little railroady. You have no clue what the characters motives or personalities are going to be yet, but you've got to have something for them to do so that the characters can at the very least get to know each other. Rails in early sessions is very forgiveable, at least in my opinion.

Lord Lemming
2014-11-11, 12:35 PM
Well, the general consensus seems to be that while railroading the party into a dungeon escape quest is a little iffy; so long as the group had FUN it's probably ok. And they did have fun, though it's made somewhat more difficult to gauge because we're all friends. Doing something together as friends can be fun even if the activity itself isn't. I guess the only way to find out is to keep going.

jedipotter
2014-11-11, 05:15 PM
Well, the general consensus seems to be that while railroading the party into a dungeon escape quest is a little iffy;

Well be careful with tossing ''railroading'' around. It gets used in the bad way, but it is really good.

Some players just like to whine and complain, and they will make it sound like ''unless they, the player, is in control of the game....then it's a railroad''. But that is just not true.

If the game has any sort of plot, it needs to be followed...that is what plots are for. The railroad keeps the game, and the characters, on the plot tracks. That is the way the game works.

Now sure, there are some crazy DM's that do the ''oh everything is closed except the one door'' type things...and sure that is bad DMing. But then that sort of thing happens in all games from time to time. It's like when the PC's get into town after midnight and find only one tavern open ''the Night Owl''....that is Not railroading...