What does one do with bonus exalted feats in any case?

[WarKitty]

Supposing one were to want to take Vow of Poverty, what feats are actually worthwhile in any sort of way? Or is there any non-cheesy (i.e. no chaos shuffle) to get useful feats out of them? I've got like, 3 that are worthwhile on a quasimelee build. Quasimelee meaning melee fighting heavily supplemented with spells.

Basically, so far I've got intuitive attack (hey if you're using a druid chassis might as well), nymph's kiss (skill points are skill points), favored of the companions (ok it's a bonus), sanctify natural attack (also a bonus)...ok now what do I do with the rest of these things?

[eggynack]

It's tricky if you don't have a thing. A "thing" in this case being defined as some sort of prerequisite for specialized exalted feats. So, on a druid base, which was implied, you'd have exalted wild shape, exalted companion, and even words of creation, of whom none are especially wasted on a build focused on melee, or on a monk, heaven forfend, you have stuff like holy ki strike and fist of the heavens. You really want to be a druid if you're taking vow of poverty as a result of this, among a number of other factors.

Beyond that, touching more on the meat of your question, you have touch of golden ice, which is always reasonable, especially on a build that's taking sanctify natural attack, along with maybe a vow, maybe chastity cause it's not the worst, and there are a few from champions of valor worth looking at, particularly defender of the homeland and maybe gift of discernment, though the latter doesn't do much in combat. Animal friend isn't the worst if you're a druid either.

[WarKitty]

Am I the only one who feels like vow of chastity is a bit...odd on an animalistic character? Honestly I'm going more for rawr I don't need items to rip your face off feel. Chastity doesn't really fit. Maybe abstinence, I could see going a very raw feel.

[eggynack]

Am I the only one who feels like vow of chastity is a bit...odd on an animalistic character? Honestly I'm going more for rawr I don't need items to rip your face off feel. Chastity doesn't really fit. Maybe abstinence, I could see going a very raw feel.
Maybe, though to be honest, I don't think of it much from that perspective. I mostly think of it in terms of optimization stuff, and from that perspective, protection from a decent set of enchantments/illusions is a reasonable amount stronger than protection from drugs and poisons, especially if you already have immunity to the latter. This is all really end of the road stuff though, mostly because any VoP build is inevitably going to have some end of the road stuff. Like, I have this whole list of druid exalted feats, because I find the archetype somewhat interesting, and it only stretches eleven feats long. That's just ridiculous, especially because it means that the expectation is for every druid to take exactly the same set of feats by the end, albeit in different orders.

[NotScaryBats]

Nimbus of Light -> Holy Radiance. Not much, but free 1d4 dmg to undead near you is kinda cool. You also get to glow, which I find quite impressive.

[WarKitty]

Maybe, though to be honest, I don't think of it much from that perspective. I mostly think of it in terms of optimization stuff, and from that perspective, protection from a decent set of enchantments/illusions is a reasonable amount stronger than protection from drugs and poisons, especially if you already have immunity to the latter. This is all really end of the road stuff though, mostly because any VoP build is inevitably going to have some end of the road stuff. Like, I have this whole list of druid exalted feats, because I find the archetype somewhat interesting, and it only stretches eleven feats long. That's just ridiculous, especially because it means that the expectation is for every druid to take exactly the same set of feats by the end, albeit in different orders.

Really though, if I was optimizing, I wouldn't be taking VoP in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Really though, if I was optimizing, I wouldn't be taking VoP in the first place. :smallbiggrin:
That's fair, I suppose. However, looking at the list again, it looks like vow of purity would make for both a more powerful, and a better thematically suited option than vow of abstinence. You get that whole druidic anti-undead edge, and you trade out the utterly worthless bonus against poison for a marginally less worthless bonus against death effects. As a sidenote, it's seriously annoying that the disease bonus on abstinence and the one on purity don't stack.

Edit: Nice. Doesn't even cut off access to animate with the spirit, that oddest of druidic forms of necromancy.

[Jeff the Green]

That's fair, I suppose. However, looking at the list again, it looks like vow of purity would make for both a more powerful, and a better thematically suited option than vow of abstinence. You get that whole druidic anti-undead edge, and you trade out the utterly worthless bonus against poison for a marginally less worthless bonus against death effects. As a sidenote, it's seriously annoying that the disease bonus on abstinence and the one on purity don't stack.

Somewhat less appropriate for an animalistic character unless you plan on wildshaping into a cow.

[eggynack]

Somewhat less appropriate for an animalistic character unless you plan on wildshaping into a cow.
I dunno that there's that much wrong with the idea of a nature themed character, capable of eating the face of folks while a bear, that insists on not eating animals. Sure, becoming a part of the circle of life is a way to go, but the idea of being a silent sentinel, guarding nature from some place above it, makes sense to me as well.

[WarKitty]

I dunno that there's that much wrong with the idea of a nature themed character, capable of eating the face of folks while a bear, that insists on not eating animals. Sure, becoming a part of the circle of life is a way to go, but the idea of being a silent sentinel, guarding nature from some place above it, makes sense to me as well.

Yeah I could see it. Really, it was more that I wanted to go generally without items in any case, and I figured if I want to do that I might as well take VoP and get some extra AC and such out of it. Not really all that into the standard exalted fluff, to be honest - I'm more building a furbarian and figuring druid casting plus appropriate prestige classes should keep me relevant even as itemless melee.

[eggynack]

Yeah I could see it. Really, it was more that I wanted to go generally without items in any case, and I figured if I want to do that I might as well take VoP and get some extra AC and such out of it. Not really all that into the standard exalted fluff, to be honest - I'm more building a furbarian and figuring druid casting plus appropriate prestige classes should keep me relevant even as itemless melee.
Sure. This is mostly really late in a build anyway. The overall exalted feat setup should look something like

1: Nymph's Kiss
2: Exalted Companion
4: Intuitive Attack or Touch of Golden Ice
6: The other out of those two
8: Exalted Wild Shape
10: Sanctify Natural Attack
12: Words of Creation, if possible
14: Nimbus of Light

And then 16, 18, and 20 are all mostly filler. Doesn't have to be in that order, or include all of those (though I would strongly recommend against skipping wild shape or companion, and I really like words of creation), but it's a good and wholesome list. Incidentally, while intuitive attack is quite sweet, it also seems a bit overrated on a druid. Most of your good combat forms are also going to have high strength, so while you might get some buff out of it, it won't be a massive one. Also, not necessarily sure you get that much extra AC out of VoP. Between luminous armor and a monk's belt, you can boost that number pretty crazy high on a standard druid.

Edit: Also seems vaguely worth note that those last few feats are basically double-filler. If a minor boost to saves, or to wild empathy, was ever going to be relevant, it was probably going to be at some point prior to level 16. The weaker exalted feats just keep reducing in value as you level, but it's not like you can really pick them up when they are relevant, because they're still the weaker exalted feats. It's a tiny bit tragic, I think.

[WarKitty]

Think I might ditch the companion...

[eggynack]

Think I might ditch the companion...
Kinda breaks the exalted feat trade parity (lose two feats, gain two actually useful feats), but alrighty. Mostly just pushes the filler line up a level, which is annoying, but there are at least four acceptable filler exalted feats, so it won't end up too awkward. Gets slightly more problematic if you can't meet the prerequisite on words of creation, because then you have to take five crap feats against one good feat and reasonable to pretty good feats. I think the point is, there aren't many good exalted feats.

[Phelix-Mu]

I have DM'd for a number of Exalted characters in my day, at least one of which has taken VoP across a dozen levels (and now continuing to take it in an epic campaign).

So here's the thing: as DM, I already have to modify the game a certain amount to make moral concerns a bigger part of the picture. If I'm already going to a bit of trouble, then the least I can do if the player is committed to the concept (as opposed to just fishing for free stuff) is to homebrew some extra Exalted feats, and maybe also houserule the terrible out of the less viable of those that already exist. I'd encourage any DM to do this, as the selection in the book is pretty terrible, and VoP badly needs the support in all but the lowest of optimization contexts.

Now, that said, perhaps a more simple version is to just broadly allow VoP to take any feat as a bonus feat, providing they meet the pre-reqs (and that being evil isn't a pre-req). Such bonus feats gain the [Exalted] tag and are subject to the normal restrictions. Such would not be terribly overpowered, ironically, because spellcasters can already buy themselves versions of feats they want (metamagic rods). But it would go some way toward making VoP less of a totally terrible choice at higher op levels.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
So here's the thing: as DM, I already have to modify the game a certain amount to make moral concerns a bigger part of the picture. If I'm already going to a bit of trouble, then the least I can do if the player is committed to the concept (as opposed to just fishing for free stuff) is to homebrew some extra Exalted feats….

I agree, and it's nice to see a more supportive approach to VoP than one usually finds in these parts.


Originally Posted by Phelix-Mu
…and VoP badly needs the support in all but the lowest of optimization contexts.

Indeed, and in that vein, I'd like to suggest the OP look at a small stack of exalted feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?164659-3-5-Exalted-Feats-for-Everyone!) by Mephibosheth, one of my favorite brewers here in the Playground. Consecrated Warrior in particular would be useful for a melee build, since it does scale with level, as opposed to so many other exalted feats.


Originally Posted by eggynack
…and there are a few from champions of valor worth looking at, particularly defender of the homeland….

Defender of the Homeland is one of the less-awful published feats I usually go with, under the category of "slightly useful and might as well."


Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Somewhat less appropriate for an animalistic character unless you plan on wildshaping into a cow.

Any druid who isn't willing to wildshape into a cow has attitude issues.

:smallbiggrin: