PDA

View Full Version : [Feat System] Perfecting Feats



Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 04:55 PM
Overview
Perfecting Feats are an effort to make the fighter useful in the late-game by altering his existing feats. I recommend using the How-It-Should-Be Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551) and Bears with Lasers' Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30692) in conjunction with this system.

For the purposes of Perfecting Feats, use the following table to determine martial rank.

{table=head]Level | Type A | Type B | Type C
1 | 1 | 0 | 0
2 | 2 | 1 | 0
3 | 3 | 2 | 0
4 | 4 | 3 | 1
5 | 5 | 3 | 1
6 | 6 | 4 | 1
7 | 7 | 5 | 1
8 | 8 | 6 | 2
9 | 9 | 6 | 2
10 | 10 | 7 | 2
11 | 11 | 8 | 2
12 | 12 | 9 | 3
13 | 13 | 9 | 3
14 | 14 | 10 | 3
15 | 15 | 11 | 3
16 | 16 | 12 | 4
17 | 17 | 12 | 4
18 | 18 | 13 | 4
19 | 19 | 14 | 4
20 | 20 | 15 | 5[/table]

Use Type A for primary fighter types (Barbarian, Fighter, Knight, Samurai, Scout, Soulborn, Swashbuckler). In general, this ranking should only be given to classes who are primarily combative characters with little to no spellcasting.

Use Type B for secondary fighter types (Ardent, Artificier, Bard, Binder, Crusader, Divine Mind, Dragon Shaman, Duskblade, Factotem, Favored Soul, Hexblade, Incarnate, Lurk, Monk, Ninja, Paladin, Psychic Warrior, Ranger, Rogue, Soulknife, Spellthief, Swordsage, Totemist, Truenamer, Warlock, Warmage, Warblade). In general, this ranking should only be given to classes who are primarily skillful or martial characters with partial spellcasting.

Use Type C for tertiary fighter types (Archivist, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, Psion, Shadowcaster, Shugenja, Sorceror, Spirit Shaman, Wilder, Wizard, Wu Jen). In general, this ranking should be given to any class that does not fit the preceding types.

__TOC__

A
B
Blind-Fight [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: None

Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit, plus one additional reroll per five martial ranks you possess.

An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.

You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half.

Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies.

C
Cleave [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Power Attack

Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (that is, render it unconscious or dead), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

For each five points of martial rank you possess, you may either take a five-foot step before making your cleave attempt, or take additional cleave attempt at -2. These options may be selected more than once if your martial rank is high enough.

Combat Expertise [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

If you have at least five martial ranks, you gain Armor Class at a 2:3 ratio. If you have at least ten martial ranks, you can spend up to 10 points of BAB instead of your normal maximum of 5. If you have at least fifteen martial ranks, you gain spell resistance equal to three times the amount of BAB sacrificed. If you have at least 20 martial ranks, you gain Armor Class at a 1:2 ratio.

Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Combat Reflexes [Perfecting]
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. You also gain an additional attack of opportunity per round for each five martial ranks you possess.

Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Special: A monk's martial rank is considered to be equal to his level (Type A) rather than equal to 3/4 his level (Type B) for the purposes of determining the effects of this feat.

D
Deflect Arrows [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Improved Unarmed Strike

Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

You gain an additional use of this ability per round for each five martial ranks you possess.

Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.

Special: A monk's martial rank is considered to be equal to his level (Type A) rather than equal to 3/4 his level (Type B) for the purposes of determining the effects of this feat.

Diehard [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Endurance

Benefit: When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act.

In addition, you do not die when you reach -10, as you normally would. You now die when your negative hit points equal your martial rank +10 or your Constitution score, whichever is more.

Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points is unconscious and dying, and dies upon reaching -10.

Dodge [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13

Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action.

A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses. You gain an additional point of dodge bonus for each five martial ranks you possess.

Special: A monk's martial rank is considered to be equal to his level (Type A) rather than equal to 3/4 his level (Type B) for the purposes of determining the effects of this feat.

E
Endurance [Perfecting]
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage, Constitution checks made to continue running, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, Constitution checks made to hold your breath, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst, Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments, and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation. Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.

Your bonus on checks and saves increases by +1 for each three martial ranks you possess.

Normal: A character without this feat who sleeps in medium or heavier armor is automatically fatigued the next day.

F
Far Shot [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

For each five martial ranks you possess, your ranges multiply by another .5. For instance, if you have five martial ranks, your ranges for projectile weapons is multiplied by 2, and your thrown weapons are multiplied by 2.5.

G
Great Fortitude [Perfecting]
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on fortitude saving throws. This increases by +1 for each four martial ranks you possess.

H
I
Improved Bull Rush [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack

Benefit: When you perform a bull rush you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed Strength check you make to push back the defender. Your bonus increases by +1 for each three martial ranks you possess.

Improved Critical [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, Base Attack Bonus +8

Benefit: Your threat range with the selected weapon increases by one for each three martial ranks you possess.

Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

Improved Disarm [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent. Your bonus increases by +1 for each four martial ranks you possess.

Normal: See the normal disarm rules.

Improved Feint [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise

Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action. If you have at least 10 martial ranks, you can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a swift action.

Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.

Improved Grapple [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Improved Unarmed Strike

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple. You also gain a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, regardless of whether you started the grapple. Your bonus increases by +1 for each four martial ranks you possess.

Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple.

Improved Initiative [Perfecting]
Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus on Initiative checks, +1 for each three martial ranks you possess.

Improved Overrun [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Power Attack

Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to knock down your opponent. Your bonus increases by +1 for each three martial ranks you possess.

Normal: Without this feat, the target of an overrun can choose to avoid you or to block you.

Improved Shield Bash [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency

Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC. Further, you gain a bonus on attack rolls made with a shield equal to 1/5th your martial rank.

Normal: Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash loses the shield’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.

Improved Sunder [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Strength 13, Power Attack

Benefit: When you strike at an object held or carried by an opponent (such as a weapon or shield), you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. You also gain a +4 bonus on any attack roll made to attack an object held or carried by another character. Your bonus increases by +1 for each four martial ranks you possess.

Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you strike at an object held or carried by another character.

Improved Trip [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. You gain a bonus on your attack roll to a follow-up attack after a trip attack equal to +1 for every four martial ranks you possess.

Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.

Improved Unarmed Strike [Perfecting]
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option. You gain a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls for each five points of martial rank you possess.

Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.

Special: A monk's martial rank is considered to be equal to his level (Type A) rather than equal to 3/4 his level (Type B) for the purposes of determining the effects of this feat.

Iron Will [Perfecting]
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Will saving throws. This increases by +1 for each four martial ranks you possess.

J
K
L
Lightning Reflexes [Perfecting]
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This increases by +1 for each four martial ranks you possess.

M
Manyshot [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired. Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.

If you have at least fifteen martial ranks, the penalty decreases to -1 per arrow, and you may apply precision damage and critical hits to each arrow, instead of just the first.

Mobility [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Dodge

Benefit: You get a +3 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. This bonus increases by +1 for each four martial ranks you possess.

Special: A monk's martial rank is considered to be equal to his level (Type A) rather than equal to 3/4 his level (Type B) for the purposes of determining the effects of this feat.

Mounted Combat [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Ride 4 Ranks

Benefit: Once per round per five martial ranks, when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount's Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount's regular AC.)

Also, the penalty you take when using a ranged weapon while mounted is reduced by 1 for each four martial ranks you possess.: -2 instead of -4 if your mount is taking a double move, and -4 instead of -8 if your mount is running.

N
O
P
Point Blank Shot [Perfecting]
Benefit: You gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet equal to 1/4 your martial rank.

If you have at least six martial ranks, you may fire into melee without the standard -4 penalty.

Power Attack [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Strength 13

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Normal: If you have at least ten martial ranks, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks) unless you have at least five martial ranks, even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.

Q
R
Rapid Shot [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Point Blank Shot

Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat. Your penalty on attack rolls for using this feat reduces by 1 for each ten martial ranks you possess.

Run [Perfecting]
Benefit: When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +3 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC. For each three martial ranks you possess, your bonus on Jump checks increases by 1.

Normal: You move four times your speed while running (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or three times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load), and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

S
Shot On The Run [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4

Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

If you possess four martial ranks, your attacks made while using this ability deal an extra 1d4 points of damage. This increases by +1d4 at each additional four ranks.

Spring Attack [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

If you possess four martial ranks, your attacks made while using this ability deal an extra 1d4 points of damage. This increases by +1d4 at each additional four ranks.

Stunning Fist [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Wisdom 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8

Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.

You gain a +1 bonus on the save DC for each five martial ranks you possess.

Special: A monk's martial rank is considered to be equal to his level (Type A) rather than equal to 3/4 his level (Type B) for the purposes of determining the effects of this feat. Further, a monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.

T
Toughness [Perfecting]
Benefit: You gain bonus hit points equal to your martial rank.

U
V
W
X
Y
Z

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 04:57 PM
Please note that this is far from complete. I plan on updating existing Core feats before creating new ones. Due to a variety of Deforestation (that is, getting rid of feat trees), new feats will be needed, some of which I'll make from scratch.

Comments and suggestions are welcome in the meantime, however.

Demented
2007-03-22, 04:58 PM
You're getting RID of feat trees? O.o

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 05:00 PM
You're getting RID of feat trees? O.o

Not entirely. I'm condensing a lot of existing ones and expanding upwards from there.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-22, 05:12 PM
Fax, how are you not working for Wizards yet?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 05:21 PM
Fax, how are you not working for Wizards yet?

Trust me, I'm trying.

Orzel
2007-03-22, 05:35 PM
I'd add a rule that make classes that get feats as bonus feats count as Rank A for those feats (Monks with IUS, Stunning Fist, etc; Rangers with TWF, PBS, etc; Rogues with Bonus Feats).

Daracaex
2007-03-22, 05:43 PM
You're redoing all of the feats to actually make them scale to level?

You're my hero. If you need any help, I'll gladly lend a hand in any way I can.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 05:54 PM
I'd add a rule that make classes that get feats as bonus feats count as Rank A for those feats (Monks with IUS, Stunning Fist, etc; Rangers with TWF, PBS, etc; Rogues with Bonus Feats).

Certain feats already have that mechanism in place (like Dodge and Combat Reflexes for monks), and I'll be adding that in as I go along.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 05:55 PM
You're redoing all of the feats to actually make them scale to level?

You're my hero. If you need any help, I'll gladly lend a hand in any way I can.

The best help I could receive is thorough critiquing of what I complete.

Krellen
2007-03-22, 06:44 PM
There seem to be a lot of exceptions for the Monk. Instead of these, why isn't the Monk simply Rank A? He is primarily a martial character, after all.

Conversely, half casters like the ranger and paladin should probably be Rank B, not Rank C (which should be the bard, and added classes like the hexblade or the warlock). The spells of the ranger and paladin are not that great of a boost.

Also, Improved Critical is broken written that way. It gives a Fighter with a Scythe a 14-20 threat range, at its x4 crit, while the Fighter with the greatsword gets a mere 13-20 with its x2 to compensate. Too much bonus for high-multiplier weapons while not enough for high-range weapons.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 07:06 PM
Right. Good suggestions. Let me add in other classes to the lists.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 07:37 PM
Classes classified, updates made. Improved Critical not dealt with yet. Type C dropped; Type D took its place.

Kyace
2007-03-23, 03:15 AM
I may be missing something, but why not just use BAB for martial rank? I thought BAB was an abstract way of looking at combat ability already.

The fact that wizards would have half the martial rank of a fighter would be balanced by the fact that almost no wizards take feats that martial rank would improve. Even if half spellcasters like rangers and paladins would have a greater martial level, they still have limited feats to cover their combat, class feature and spellcasting abilities. Why not let a ranger who wishes to focus on martial feats gain full benefits?

Also, I'm not sure why the iron will, lightning reflexes and great fortitude improve by martial rank. It might do to make them improve by player level instead.

Overall, you have a very good idea, I will enjoy seeing what you end up with. Seems like martial rank could be the next 'spellcaster level'.

Jayabalard
2007-03-23, 08:43 AM
Classes classified, updates made. Improved Critical not dealt with yet. Type C dropped; Type D took its place.Minor text fix:

Class C still says "In general, this ranking should be given to any class that does not fit the preceding three types."

should be "two types" since you cut the list down.

A Thought:
I'm not sure how well this would work: pull the partial spellcasters into thier own group and advance them in martial level any time they do not gain a new level of spells. That makes a ranger and a paladin slightly better than a bard for example (16 vs 13 or 14 depending on if you count level 0 songs as a new spell level).

I'm not sure it's worth the extra complexity over the table, but it might give a little better balance between the partial spellcasters; it also allows non-casting variants to fight a little better than their casting bretheren.

Orzel
2007-03-23, 09:04 AM
You could save time and add "Whenever a character gains a feat as a bonus feat, treat their martial rank as one type higher for that feat." That'll cover rangers, monks, rouges, knights, eldritch knights, duelists, etc.

I'd go back to 4 types. Partial casting or Nonfull BAB downgrades you by one type each. Full casting puts you at Type D automatically.

A: Full BAB classes with no spellcasting
B: Full BAB classes with partial spellcasting or Partial BAB classes with no spellcasting
C: Partial BAB classes with partial spellcasting
D: All classes with full spellcasting

Fax Celestis
2007-03-23, 10:08 AM
I may be missing something, but why not just use BAB for martial rank? I thought BAB was an abstract way of looking at combat ability already.

Using BAB would be simple, yes, but not what I'm trying to do here. Druids and Clerics already feature 3/4 BAB, and would therefore be in bracket B, something which they definitely do not need.


A Thought:
I'm not sure how well this would work: pull the partial spellcasters into thier own group and advance them in martial level any time they do not gain a new level of spells. That makes a ranger and a paladin slightly better than a bard for example (16 vs 13 or 14 depending on if you count level 0 songs as a new spell level).

I'm not sure it's worth the extra complexity over the table, but it might give a little better balance between the partial spellcasters; it also allows non-casting variants to fight a little better than their casting bretheren.

I personally value simplicity as a form of elegance. I'm going to keep the table, though your thought does have merit.


You could save time and add "Whenever a character gains a feat as a bonus feat, treat their martial rank as one type higher for that feat." That'll cover rangers, monks, rouges, knights, eldritch knights, duelists, etc.

I'd go back to 4 types. Partial casting or Nonfull BAB downgrades you by one type each. Full casting puts you at Type D automatically.

A: Full BAB classes with no spellcasting
B: Full BAB classes with partial spellcasting or Partial BAB classes with no spellcasting
C: Partial BAB classes with partial spellcasting
D: All classes with full spellcasting

Under that system, it'd be:

A: Fighter, Barbarian
B: Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Monk
C: Bard
D: Cleric, Druid, Sorceror, Wizard

While under the existing, it's:

A: Fighter, Barbarian
B: Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Bard
C: Cleric, Druid, Sorceror, Wizard

I tried typing it into four groups, but group C ended up so small that I figured I should just add it into group B.

elliott20
2007-03-23, 10:16 AM
I too, think keeping it down to 3 groups would work better. I mean, saves are split into three categories, BAB progression was split into three. Martial Rank should understandably be split into three.

My question is how will this eventually effect feats that depend upon feat trees like whirlwind attack?

What I like about a lot of these feats is that it removes a lot of the "improved" and "greater" versions of existing feats and this allows the feats to get more bang for the buck. (in the fighter's case, they can become quite the menace with even just a few feats)

How will this interact with a lot of prestige class requirements though? Once you've completed this, it might be helpful to have each "progressive" stage equate to the original feat for the purpose of fulfill PrC requirements and such.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-23, 02:09 PM
Updates and additions. Imp. Crit still not fixed as I'm not sure how to do it.

SpartacusThe2nd
2007-03-23, 03:28 PM
what ectly are they?
why u changed the regular feats?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-23, 03:38 PM
what ectly are they?
why u changed the regular feats?

Because most of the regular feats aren't worthwhile in the long term and can't measure up to what a spellcaster can do with even low-level spells. I'll "grow" trees from these feats that will help meleers compete at higher levels.

Yakk
2007-03-23, 04:03 PM
You use the "every 5 points" rule too often, and don't have a smooth curve between the teirs. This means you get discontinuous power graphs.

And you leave in some serious problems with the feats: Cleave as written, for example, is only really useful when you are fighting one-hit kills, which happens less and less as you gain levels.

Edit! I got a better solution!
This needs cleaning up, but:

Cleave:
Whenver you hit a target in melee, make a DC 21 Rank-test. If you dropped the target (rendered the target incapacitated), the DC is only 11.

On success, you gain a bonus attack against anyone you haven't hit yet in this round.

You may instead consume such a bonus attack by taking a 5' step.

Blind Fight:
If you miss because of concealment, make a DC 21 Rank-test. On success, ignore the miss.

You can move at full speed while blind or unable to see on a DC 21 Rank-test. One may take 10 on this roll outside of combat.

...

Viola. Cleave is useful whenever fighting more than 1 target, and scales smoothly with level.

Blind fight also scales smoothly.

The DCs can be tweaked, especially if there is more than 1 talent for a skill.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-23, 04:20 PM
No. Your system has merit, but I refuse to add more rolling of dice to D&D.

Yes, the curves need alteration. And yes, I use every 5 a lot. This will change. As of right now, this is indeed very rough, and a work in progress. Once I get more worked out, retroactive edits will be made and powers will be adjusted.

Krellen
2007-03-23, 04:36 PM
Imp. Crit still not fixed as I'm not sure how to do it.
It's a bit more bookkeeping this way, but how about this:

Improved Critical [Perfecting]
Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, Base Attack Bonus +8

Benefit: Your threat range with the selected weapon doubles. For every five martial ranks you possess, you may select an additional bonus: either an additional increase of the threat range (doubled becomes tripled, tripled becomes quadrupled, etc.) or an increase to the weapon's multiplier (x2 becomes x3, x3 becomes x4, etc.)

Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.


While this does have some chance for abuse (a 20th level Fighter could have a Scythe critical on a 19-20 for x8 damage - or conversely, a Falchion that crits on a 3!) it's far less broken than before. A 20th level Fighter could have his Greatsword crit on a 15-20 for x4 - or his Scythe crit on a 15-20 for x4.

You might also say 'for every five martial ranks you possess beyond five', to ramp down the cheese a bit. For that matter, since we've included martial ranks, why not have some feats require a certain martial rank, instead of BAB?

brian c
2007-03-23, 05:43 PM
I support all three of Krellen's ideas: improved crit, every five above five, and martial rank as a prereq.

Great job here Fax, I love this. I also love that it effectively nerfs Clerics and Druids in melee, as I've always thought that they aren't intended to be primary melee characters anyway.

Demented
2007-03-23, 06:56 PM
Supposing this worked with monsters as well, I can just imagine a Tarrasque with a martial rank of 48.

Cleave: +9 Cleave/Step actions
Combat Reflexes: +9 AoOs
Dodge: +12 Dodge Bonus
Improved Bull Rush: +12 Bonus
Improved Initiative: +19 Bonus to Init
Iron Will: +14 Bonus
Toughness: +48 hitpoints (x6 for +288 hp)
[Thank goodness the Tarrasque doesn't have Improved Critical.]

Bring it, CoDzillas.

Daracaex
2007-03-23, 07:21 PM
I agree with Brian C. Krellen's ideas seem good to me.

I noticed several people mentioned simply stating that every class treats it's bonus feats as one type higher. I think Fax Celestis wanted the exception to apply to all potential bonus feats as well. Like if a monk decided to pick up Stunning Fist as a regular feat because it chose improved grapple as its bonus feat instead.

brian c
2007-03-23, 07:37 PM
Supposing this worked with monsters as well, I can just imagine a Tarrasque with a martial rank of 48.

Cleave: +9 Cleave/Step actions
Combat Reflexes: +9 AoOs
Dodge: +12 Dodge Bonus
Improved Bull Rush: +12 Bonus
Improved Initiative: +19 Bonus to Init
Iron Will: +14 Bonus
Toughness: +48 hitpoints (x6 for +288 hp)
[Thank goodness the Tarrasque doesn't have Improved Critical.]

Bring it, CoDzillas.

For toughness, that may depend on what level the Tarrasque took the feat at. Fax, did you intend for that to be read such that you gain HP equal to your current martial rank when you take the feat, or do you gain more HP every time your martial rank increases also?

Yakk
2007-03-24, 09:50 PM
Well, more complex with less dice:

Cleave: triggers on a hit.
-5 to hit base. Every Rank eats a -1, until you hit -0.
At Rank 6 11 and 16, you get a new Cleave at -5.

So a Rank 13 would have two -0 cleaves and a -3 cleave.

Valairn
2007-03-25, 12:00 PM
Not to make the project any bigger than it already is, but you could also do this with certain spell casting feats, and make them scale better, based off of a "caster rank."

Iron_Mouse
2007-03-25, 12:37 PM
Hows that?

Feat Focus [General]
Choose any [Perfecting] feat you already possess.
Prerequisites: None

Benefit: Your martial rank is treated 3 (4? 5?) points higher when you use the selected feat.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new [Perfecting] feat.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-03-31, 02:38 PM
Using feats to improve the benefits of other feats? I'm rather apprehensive about this, but I really couldn't see anyone taking this feat, or unbalancing a game with it; so it's okay, I guess.

Also, Fax, the best way to reduce your headache would simply be to make monks Type A martial rank, especially since it works that way even according to your own description. Monks are warriors with no spellcasting or class-specific subterfuge abilities to speak of. Your current method seems to based primarily off of BAB, while putting gishes in Type B instead of Type A.