Any way to build Anti-magic character without him being a magician?

[SinsI]

I want to make a character that really, really hates all magic and supernatural.

I envision him as some kind of dispeller/disenchanter, going around counterspelling spells, removing curses and enchantments, destroying magic items (including artifacts and relics) and suppressing supernatural abilities on monsters with Antimagic aura.

Is there any way to get those things without being some kind of caster yourself or relying on magic items?

[(Un)Inspired]

A psion is probably the best way to do this.

Or maybe an ardent with some binder stuff.

[Anxe]

Occult Slayer is one way, but its not everything you're looking for. You could always look into homebrew stuff?

[DMVerdandi]

I want to make a character that really, really hates all magic and supernatural.

I envision him as some kind of dispeller/disenchanter, going around counterspelling spells, removing curses and enchantments, destroying magic items (including artifacts and relics) and suppressing supernatural abilities on monsters with Antimagic aura.

Is there any way to get those things without being some kind of caster yourself or relying on magic items?

Seconding Psionics.
It's apparently all the rage to play as kamijou touma these days (:small annoyed:) But sometimes players get too enthusiastic and rage against spell casting so hard, that they take away all options to actually have a viable player.


Psionics allows you to exist outside of the arcane/divine system, and actually have a character that isn't a one trick pony, and can actually survive to the point where they are a viable threat that can't just be laughed off with a day's retreat.

Even better is the Psion variant, Erudite.
Now, to over-emphasize the hatred of spell casting, keeping away from the spell-to-power variant could be seen as a defiance to stoop to the level of spell casting and to keep one's mind mentally pure of those unnatural ideas.

Buy a whole bunch of power stones, Absorb the spells inside of them, maintain a standard working power list, keep a Unique Psionic Power unused as a trump, and kick buttowski.





By completely devoting oneself to the psionic end, they stay away from having to deal with any type of magic items or spells.
Even if you were to choose incarnum, binding, maneuvers, shadow casting, or true naming (shudders), you would still encounter magic items and their necessity without the psionic alternatives to rely on.

Psionics is the only true supernatural sub-system which allows you to function on a high level without interfering with the spell casting standard that is even present in the phb.
And it happens to be balanced, pretty intuitive, and potent.





Using erudite, and possibly taking a monk level with kung-fu genius and tashalitora feats gives you a real monster to take down casters.

[Kraken]

The witch hunter prestige class from Tome of Magic can be useful, it's one of the few classes that grant mettle, and its 5th level ability to momentarily AMF a caster is pretty good, though it does target what will likely be a caster's best save (will).

[Venger]

The witch hunter prestige class from Tome of Magic can be useful, it's one of the few classes that grant mettle, and its 5th level ability to momentarily AMF a caster is pretty good, though it does target what will likely be a caster's best save (will).

NB: the tome of magic class you are talking about is called "witch slayer." the witch hunter class is from OA and is completely different.

[Brookshw]

Thematically the Forsaker fits your concept to a T, but lacks a few of the tricks you were hoping for. A VoP Forsaker is an interesting choice (talk to your DM).

[aleucard]

Thematically the Forsaker fits your concept to a T, but lacks a few of the tricks you were hoping for. A VoP Forsaker is an interesting choice (talk to your DM).

Isn't that the class that you have to burn through your entire WBL at least once a month in-game to just keep your class features?

As stated by others, Psionics is your best bet, with Erudite being the cream of the crop without shenanigans. If you must use a weapon, though, one good enchantment would be Magebane. Everything that casts or uses SLA's is a valid target, and since that's going to be a solid majority of the threats.....

[atemu1234]

A psion is probably the best way to do this.

Or maybe an ardent with some binder stuff.

This, basically.

Psions are arguably the next best thing to arcane casters (well, maybe that or divine casters, who have a lot more support) and are even closer in power if you access third party psionics content.

No nonmagical character can defeat a magical character, realistically. If the 20th-level Drow Wizard is attacked by your 20th-level fighter and you get away alive, he let you live.

Basically, if by some ungodly luck you beat him, then he let you kill him. This is the flaw of the mage-killer archetype, because our noncasters are inherently worse than our casters.

[Dalebert]

Who are you going to party with? If you manage to find a bunch of PCs who will completely avoid magic-using classes, seems like you will have a hard time facing challenges which are designed with the assumption of at least one or two tier 1 characters in the party. I guess psionics might be a good way around that if you don't have the same problem with it. Seems very magicky to me, just with less restrictions.


If you must use a weapon, though, one good enchantment would be Magebane.

Sounds like he wouldn't use an enchanted weapon. He goes around destroying magic items left and right.

[aleucard]

Sounds like he wouldn't use an enchanted weapon. He goes around destroying magic items left and right.

It could be viewed as a form of turnabout, or it could be researched for a non-magical or psionic version. Personally, all weapons having that quality should be a mage-killer class feature, but that's homebrew.

What sort of things would fit best in a homebrew PrC designed to be the perfect mage hunter, anyway? An at-will aura similar to a beholder's central eye is a start, or if that don't fit then magic immunity similar to a golem would work. Being allowed to ignore magical enhancements in any engagement where they apply would also work (read: mage-killer swings on a mage with a mithril chainshirt +10 and Mirror Image, and the only thing that counts is the MW mithril chainshirt).

[Red Fel]

It depends how you fluff things. For example, if divine magic isn't considered the same thing, a Cleric or Druid would be great. If Psionics are a different beast, definitely go for Psionics.

The problem is, any mundane tools you use can be duplicated, outperformed, and rendered redundant by a capable caster. Listen to Uncle...


http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130614080814/fantendo/images/4/4b/Uncle-meme-generator-magic-must-defeat-magic-931311.jpg

[Brookshw]

Isn't that the class that you have to burn through your entire WBL at least once a month in-game to just keep your class features?



Nah, just the DR. One of the funkier things about it is the spell resistance stacks by the dndtools version (http://dndtools.eu/classes/forsaker/).

The psionics thing is kinda strange in my mind. "you hate magic? Here, use this other thing that's totally not magic". Feels kinda weird

[Flickerdart]

How non-magic are we talking? A Drow (assuming you can buy off the LA, otherwise don't bother) with Gift of the Spider Queen can do some neat tricks that replicate neat spells and will help you against a low-op caster. Combine with Ninja for some ki powers and you have something resembling a chance against the sort of mages "mage killers" typically go after and survive. Things like Baatorian Greensteel (non-magical +1 enhancement bonus to damage) will help too.

Against anyone competent? You need psionics or magic of your own. Imagine going against a chessmaster with nothing but one pawn, or running a marathon against a guy in a plane. A mundane character lacks the resources of a full caster, especially if he denies himself magic items.

Plus, here's the thing - casters are comparatively rare in the world, both because there are few classes that use it, and because they are a huge pain to build and run as NPCs in combat. Most of your enemies will be non-casters, with bonuses scaled to fight against magic items and buffs. That frost giant doesn't give a damn that you have SR and are immune to mind-affecting, because it's currently driving you into the ground with a tree. Such a narrow specialty is fine for NPCs, because they are not expected to fight random encounters and are expected to be defeated in the end. Specializing against a single type of threat as a PC will see you dead long before you face it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I want to make a character that really, really hates all magic and supernatural.

I envision him as some kind of dispeller/disenchanter, going around counterspelling spells, removing curses and enchantments, destroying magic items (including artifacts and relics) and suppressing supernatural abilities on monsters with Antimagic aura.

Is there any way to get those things without being some kind of caster yourself or relying on magic items?

To the bold; technically yes but you're going to have to pick one or the other. Either you're not a caster or you don't rely on magic items because if you try to do both then casters and supernatural foes will chew you up and spit you out like so much gum.

Realistically, going against casters without casting ability (and I presume you consider psionics a form of casting) is a -very- dodgy prospect and only -just- this side of impossible at 20th level. Maybe. Supernatural foes that lack true casting ability aren't so bad though.

The problem with wanting to be a non-magical mage hunter is that high-end magic can only be countered by other magic. If you can't produce the necessary effects yourself, you'll have to produce them from an item or you're just hosed.

[torrasque666]

sounds like you basically want something to be able to become like the Pristinely Ungifted (http://sot.wikia.com/wiki/Pristinely_ungifted).

[Flickerdart]

sounds like you basically want something to be able to become like the Pristinely Ungifted (http://sot.wikia.com/wiki/Pristinely_ungifted).
Karsites are probably as close to this as you can get in D&D. There are also a couple of LA -- templates that allow a monster to "swallow" spells for benefits.

[SinsI]

How non-magic are we talking?
Ideally, no caster/manifester levels (since there is magic-psionic transparency), no Spell-like abilities, no magic items.

In exchange he should get the aforementioned dispelling/magic item destruction/antimagic abilities.
And maybe ability to remove magic and supernatural abilities from people and monsters. (akin to what The Shadow did to Shiwan Khan in the 1994 movie)

Forsaker seems to fit perfectly flavor-wise.
Maybe also gestalt it with Witchborn Binder to get access to Dispelling ability.

Especially if first levels are in Totemist with Disenchanter Mask bound to Totem Chakra for suppression ability.

[Flickerdart]

Ideally, no caster/manifester levels (since there is magic-psionic transparency), no Spell-like abilities, no magic items.
In that case you're going to want a whole bunch of martial initiator levels - they're all explicitly either Ex or (rarely) Su, and many of the abilities close gaps that would otherwise be served by magic items.

Forsaker actually does absolutely nothing for you - its only anti-spell ability is SR, and the scaling is so terrible you shouldn't bother. If you like the flavour, just break magic items without benefit, maybe go for Improved Sunder.

[gorfnab]

Here is a Mage Slayer build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.
Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

[torrasque666]

[QUOTE=gorfnab;18389581]Here is a Mage Slayer build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.
If playing with LA-Buyoff, try Karsite. All benefits of human, with a few extras, plus innate SR that eats spells for HP.

[aleucard]

Ideally, no caster/manifester levels (since there is magic-psionic transparency), no Spell-like abilities, no magic items.

In exchange he should get the aforementioned dispelling/magic item destruction/antimagic abilities.
And maybe ability to remove magic and supernatural abilities from people and monsters. (akin to what The Shadow did to Shiwan Khan in the 1994 movie)

Forsaker seems to fit perfectly flavor-wise.
Maybe also gestalt it with Witchborn Binder to get access to Dispelling ability.

Especially if first levels are in Totemist with Disenchanter Mask bound to Totem Chakra for suppression ability.

If you're not allowed any casting-equivalent save ToB, then your best bet is going to be Incarnum, and that's basically built-in magic items with a wonky equipment mechanic. Can they even operate in an AMF?

There's just too damn much that can be done by magic that either (more commonly) can't be done at all non-magically or is done inefficiently, expensively, or both. The only thing you're going to be good at is culling the ones too stupid to let live.

[gawwy]

I kinda feel like people are going about this the wrong way.

In high op casters use scry-and-die tactics against their enemies.

the first thing on my want list for a anti-mage is some form of ex immunity to scry spells.

next up is mundane information gathering.

then some form of dispel/ magic removal.

followed by mundane disguise and hide ect.

an anti caster is not going to be very effective if the caster hears you are coming and then scrys you, waits till your asleep and then teleports in and messes your **** up.

[Venger]

Isn't that the class that you have to burn through your entire WBL at least once a month in-game to just keep your class features?

yes. it's widely acknowledged as one of the worst classes in the game as a result.


I kinda feel like people are going about this the wrong way.

In high op casters use scry-and-die tactics against their enemies.

the first thing on my want list for a anti-mage is some form of ex immunity to scry spells.

next up is mundane information gathering.

then some form of dispel/ magic removal.

followed by mundane disguise and hide ect.

an anti caster is not going to be very effective if the caster hears you are coming and then scrys you, waits till your asleep and then teleports in and messes your **** up.

Literally every single one of those things (and more!) is doable via spymaster.

the problem of course being that spymaster has next to no offensive potential. if you do something like the uncanny trapsmith (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3413191) that seems similar to what you're looking for. lay traps all over the place with crazy high DCs, do it all the time, and it's all ex. done.

[Esprit15]

Nth-ing the ToB use. The most magical of the schools (Desert Wind) is also widely considered to be one of the worst, barring very specific maneuvers/stances. Still, at best that shrinks the gaping gap between you and casters, not closing it. The crusader can take hits that should kill him, the swordsage can ninja around the battlefield, and the warblade is going to come in and deal gobs of damage. The Wizard is meanwhile summoning outsiders to do his fighting for him while dealing with more important matters, and has contingencies in case you get past everything else.

[gawwy]

oh right contingency.

can those be dispelled?
do they work when in an amf?

[dascarletm]

Another important piece of info is how your DM runs casters.

Does he run them the more literary sense or does he run them all to have a hyper-paranoid, logic-over-emotion, sociopathic personality?

Do wizards feel like Gandalf, or like something spawned from the unknowable depths of tippy himself?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ideally, no caster/manifester levels (since there is magic-psionic transparency), no Spell-like abilities, no magic items.

Heh heh..... no. You're simply not going to be able to stand against even a moderately optimized caster with just your EX and SU abilities, no matter where they come from, and nothing else.


In exchange he should get the aforementioned dispelling/magic item destruction/antimagic abilities.
And maybe ability to remove magic and supernatural abilities from people and monsters. (akin to what The Shadow did to Shiwan Khan in the 1994 movie)

So far as I know, there are only two game objects that can temporarily or permanently remove a creature's SU abilities and they're both truename spells; spurn the supernatural and expunge the supernatural. To the best of my knowledge there is only one other effect capable of completely shutting off a creature from all mystical abilities and it's the capstone of monk prestige class loaded down with SU abilities; the shintao monk from OA.


Forsaker seems to fit perfectly flavor-wise.
Maybe also gestalt it with Witchborn Binder to get access to Dispelling ability.

Especially if first levels are in Totemist with Disenchanter Mask bound to Totem Chakra for suppression ability.

That will prove woefully inadequate unless your DM seriously pulls his punches with casters.



So here's the thing; you simply cannot shut out everything a caster can throw at you completely. Therefore, the best you can do is maximize your ability to mitigate. To that end it is desireable to aquire both evasion and mettle (fort and will version) and get your saves as high as you can.

You'll also want to get hard counters to the things that can eliminate you entirely, in effect if not in fact, so that you don't just get put in a corner until the caster can better deal with you; i.e. a rod of cancellation or three to breach force cages and a ring of freedom of movement to avoid magical entanglement.

Then you have to find a way to pin down a foe that can fly, teleport, and/or plane shift and hit him when he can become invulnerable to mundane ranged attacks, any attack with a metal weapon, and even rays. Finally, you have to find a way to catch, by surprise, a foe that is constantly aware of what will happen in the next few moments and is capable of -always- going first in combat.

This -can- be done, albeit unreliably, by a non-caster with sufficient preparation and gear.

Also of note: defensive use of antimagic field is suicidal. Thinking it's not is a typical newb mistake in this particular field.





Completely incedentally; does anyone know what the lowest level version of antimagic field is?

[kardar233]

Also of note: defensive use of antimagic field is suicidal. Thinking it's not is a typical newb mistake in this particular field.

Unless you're using Initiate of Mystra or Selective Spell to ignore it.


Completely incedentally; does anyone know what the lowest level version of antimagic field is?

I believe it's Runescarred Berserker 5.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you're using Initiate of Mystra or Selective Spell to ignore it.

But then you have to -be- a spellcaster, which the OP is trying to avoid, and even then it's a middling defense, not a great one. For a non-caster it's suicidal.


I believe it's Runescarred Berserker 5.

Huh, not as low as I'd hoped. Oh well.

[Venger]

But then you have to -be- a spellcaster, which the OP is trying to avoid, and even then it's a middling defense, not a great one. For a non-caster it's suicidal.

or you could be a spur lord.

[Kelb_Panthera]

or you could be a spur lord.

What? Is there a spur lord outside of Lords of Darkness? 'cause I don't see anything in spur lord that would be a good defense against any non-cyrisist spellcasters.

[Prime32]

I've put together an lv20 build (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10132.0;msg=209929) designed to spam dispels and immediate-action counterspells, but with no spellcasting ability other than a single level of cleric (and it doesn't need cleric spells for anything, so they could just choose not to use them).

[Venger]

What? Is there a spur lord outside of Lords of Darkness? 'cause I don't see anything in spur lord that would be a good defense against any non-cyrisist spellcasters.

no, I'm talking about that one.

since we were talking about cheater of mystra, I mentioned one of the other ways to be in the eye of an AMF.

if you're a cleric of cyric, you can just buff up with it and not be affected. not applicable to the OP, but still worth mentioning for the sake of completeness.

[Kelb_Panthera]

no, I'm talking about that one.

since we were talking about cheater of mystra, I mentioned one of the other ways to be in the eye of an AMF.

if you're a cleric of cyric, you can just buff up with it and not be affected. not applicable to the OP, but still worth mentioning for the sake of completeness.

Oh. I think it's questionable whether AMF would count as an offensive spell or not but I see what you mean now.

[Venger]

Oh. I think it's questionable whether AMF would count as an offensive spell or not but I see what you mean now.

good thing dark bond doesn't say anything about offensive spells, then:


A Spur Lord is immune to any harmful
spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that originates
from the power of Cyric. Such effects act as if the Spur Lord is
not included in their area

it just needs to be "harmful" which AMF definitely is.

[Kelb_Panthera]

good thing dark bond doesn't say anything about offensive spells, then:



it just needs to be "harmful" which AMF definitely is.

Semantics. I still think it's questionable. After all it can only be cast on yourself barring a few fairly specific tricks. It doesn't make much sense for a non-harmful non-defensive spell to have range: personal. "Harmful" isn't a game specific term so it's a DM call, even if most of us who are well versed in the system would almost certainly say that it is indeed harmful under most circumstances.

[torrasque666]

The closest we get to a definition to "harmful effect" would likely come from the Vows of Peace/Nonviolence.

" You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such foes through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm. "

Not specific, but probably the closes we're gonna get.

[Venger]

Semantics. I still think it's questionable. After all it can only be cast on yourself barring a few fairly specific tricks. It doesn't make much sense for a non-harmful non-defensive spell to have range: personal. "Harmful" isn't a game specific term so it's a DM call, even if most of us who are well versed in the system would almost certainly say that it is indeed harmful under most circumstances.

so it, uh, doesn't look like we actually disagree about anything? cool


The closest we get to a definition to "harmful effect" would likely come from the Vows of Peace/Nonviolence.

" You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such foes through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm. "

Not specific, but probably the closes we're gonna get.

and AMF again ticks none of these boxes.