[3.5]Feats for a gish build, long campaign

[Astralia123]

Reaching 2nd level, it happens to me that I feel uncertain about my feat choice.

Hold the Line from CW seems weak and inefficient for a gish character at low levels, but I doubt power attack/weapon focus are that useful, either; anyway my character is not going to have many base attack to spare, and she is not likely to stand in front line as she is going to be mostly a supportive wizard (there is already another one) for most of the time.

With FR and PHB2 banned and ToB not a wise choice, I'm not sure how to make a low level gish who is not heavily optimised more powerful with wise feat selections.





First, some introduce about my circumstance.

We have been running a moderately optimized campaign with the Savage Tides module. The party includes a rebuking cleric of Wee Jas, a paladin/wizard of Wee Jas (me), a half-orc barbarian, a halfling shadowcaster and a rogue (already dropped out).

I have decided to roll a gish paladin this time. Not exactly powerful but somewhat resourceful in role-playing terms.
As the campaign begin at 1st level and my DM is compelled to rationalise everything, he allows me to start as a 1st level multi-class character.
PCs start with 32 buy, all sources from first 4 books of Complete series, BoED and campaign sourcebook are allowed. Nothing from PHB2, FR or EBE is allowed (my DM is a FR disliker, and he even bans things that can be rationalised in Greyhawk), and he states that if anyone uses ToB, monsters start using ToB, too. Sometimes he permits one or two things from UA.

Character background:
My character is a young women born in the city. She is the eldest daughter of a minor noble house whose members have a strong tendency to become a spellcaster, and she is expected to be one, too. After she heard the call of Wee Jas (who selected the character as her champion to punish spellcasters that abuse necromancy and thus violate her laws on death and afterlife), she became a paladin but made a compromise to become a paladin who fights with arcane spells. She is also supposed to be a competently diplomatic and knowledgeable, so skill points are quite scarce.
I expect her choice about feats and class features would fit well with the back stories, but I don't wish to be weak, too.



Enough about the background.

Character Details:
She starts with STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 14.
I have used class variants from UA: paladin with favoured enemy and wizard with fighter bonus feats.
But as my character is not furthering in paladin class, my DM says she has to trade favoured enemy with smite evil (which is gained at 1st level, while lay on hand and other traits she was going to lose are not).
She is 1paladin/1wizard of apprentice level at this point. She is an abjurer and prohibits enchantment and evocation.

As she reaches 2nd level, she gains full class features as below.
1 fighter bonus feat (trading scribe scrolls);
familiar class feature (need 100 gp to summon one);
smite evil or favoured enemy, only one can be chosen; favoured enemy options are limited to undead for background reasons, but I doubt it may be possible to persuade my DM to let her select arcanists.
wizard spell slots;
wizard skill points;
HP, BAB, SV, etc.

Her starting feats are Force of Personality (CAd, substitutes CHA for WIS when save against mind-affecting) and Great Fervour (from campaign sourcebook. Your god notices you, and once per day reroll a failed save with extra WIS modifier).
She wears studded leather armour, no shield, and prefer polearms (currently wield a Ranseur).

What troubles me is the fighter bonus feat. I was originally interested in Hold the Line (CW, offers AoO to enemy that charges at you, with combat reflex as prerequisite), but now I'm worried that my character is kind of under-powered.
I am planning taking 1paladin/5wizard at 6th level and take a level in spellsword, then proceed to become an abjurant champion. Thus she is going to fight mostly like a supportive wizard at lower levels, as there is already a controller wizard in the party.
Other feat options for this character include arcane strike (CW), nemesis (BoED), weapon focus/exotic weapon proficiency and maybe combat expertise/power attack. I'm also interested in taking mobile spellcasting (CAd) but it is not that juicy, either (if you know what I mean).


What feats would you guys suggest?
She has 2 fighter bonus feats and 2 normal feat slots before she takes a prestige class. One of the feats has to be combat casting.
I don't know how long this campaign would last, but it is supposed to reach 7th or 8th level at least before the DM forfeits.
At this moment, we are focusing more on investigating and negotiating with the NPCs than fighting, but there will be difficult fights.

[PraxisVetli]

Any chance this will help?
https://web.archive.org/web/20100327172812/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
I know it's not on your list if allowed, but it's not on your list of dissallowed...

Edit: just thought of something.
Isn't Knowledge Devotion one of the better Wizard-based gish feats? It should fit nicely with your fluff. I believe its in Complete Champion, where you'll also find the rather solid Travel Devotion.
Uncle say ONE MORE THING.
Smiting Spell, no idea what book, but if you casting is progressed enough that a +1 Metamagic won't cripple you, its essentially Duskblade: the Feat.


I know you said no ToB, but Ruby Knight Vindicater is a thing, a WeeJassy kind of thing at that, and so does deserve mention. Its really, really, really baller.

[DMVerdandi]

Hmm. What does your DM think about re-training.
I mean it doesn't seem like you are too deep in, but paladin/wizard is kind of rough. Paladin has a lot of various class features, but they all seem to require you to have just one more high ability score. You can't SAD very well with them, so when you do that and then begin to gish with wizard, it just requires you to have one more high ability score.
Then there is the problem with the code of conduct. Aye.

Also, Remember that 3.5 paladins are not really paladins OF deities. They are paladins who happen to worship deities. 4e paladins are the ones that are paladins "of". Not saying you can't flavor your paladin that way, I suppose, but they don't get their spells from deities, they get their powers specifically from righteousness and essentially being lawful good. Clerics get their spells from their deities.


Personally, I would have rolled up an Archivist if possible. Your DM DOES seem kind of strict, but I mean if you are friends, what is a favor. Bribe him with pizza and a tall-boy, and you have what you need. A cool re-training session could have you misunderstanding the difference between the methods of the divine and arcane, and going through a personal change of mindset which (metagame) changes your class.

Similarly, you could have played a cleric with the spell domain, and done it that way. (It's not the number of classes you have, but the execution done in a way that is most optimal, most simple, and most enjoyable.)

But, aside from those things, What feats should you pick if you are continuing on this path?

You said you need combat casting, so that is one.
For the remaining fighter feat, I would say either power attack or improved initiative. Those are bread and butter. Without that, you aren't eating.

For the two general feats, I would say Practiced spell caster for one, as you are going to be missing some caster levels, and that is not good for your Spells. It makes them easier to resist, have shorter durations, ranges, easier to dispel, less damage, and more. This will make it so that you have up to four levels to move away from the wizard class and still cast at the same caster level.

For the second, extend spell is just lovely. Even if you never go down the persistent route, it is so much more economical, and you get twice the spell out of one casting for one spell level increase.
Smiting spell IS an awesome metamagic feat, but at this level, you don't really have the amount of slots to make it worthwhile.

Instead of focusing on damage dealing spells at this level, which is where smiting spell will inevitably take you, Best be able to extend those buffs. Which will be more economical over time. Definitely get smiting spell, just not right now. It will be good around level 6. You need foundation first. And survivability.

[Bluydee]

Are you attached to the wizard part? Because it would be much easier to instead use sorcerer for charisma synergy.

[Astralia123]

Are you attached to the wizard part? Because it would be much easier to instead use sorcerer for charisma synergy.

It is quite true. I don't like sorcerer for its lack of spell knowledge. I would rather consider the spells I'm going to use every morning, instead of decide once for all.
It is also because sorcerer is late in spell progressing. If I'm going to use a sorcerer/paladin, it would be like 4sor/2pal, with poor known spell number and progresses unbearably slow in spells.

So I decide wizard is a much better choice for a campaign that starts from 1st level and can hardly be expected to exceed 7 to 8th level. Plus, intelligence is also essential to a charismatic character, and cannot be expected to be lowered below 12, thus being a sorcerer would not help a lot in saving ability points.

[Troacctid]

I say break out Jade Phoenix Mage. So the monsters will start using ToB too, big whoop. You can handle it, and it'll make fights more interesting.

[Socratov]

It is quite true. I don't like sorcerer for its lack of spell knowledge. I would rather consider the spells I'm going to use every morning, instead of decide once for all.
It is also because sorcerer is late in spell progressing. If I'm going to use a sorcerer/paladin, it would be like 4sor/2pal, with poor known spell number and progresses unbearably slow in spells.

So I decide wizard is a much better choice for a campaign that starts from 1st level and can hardly be expected to exceed 7 to 8th level. Plus, intelligence is also essential to a charismatic character, and cannot be expected to be lowered below 12, thus being a sorcerer would not help a lot in saving ability points.

well, what the sorc misses in spell knowledge, it makes up for it by giving more uses, Plus there is the metamagic on the fly ACF which is extremely helpful. Besides, it's not like you're going to be able to prepare for everything, better stick to something you are good at and which solves 90% of your problems.

[Astralia123]

Any chance this will help?
https://web.archive.org/web/20100327172812/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
I know it's not on your list if allowed, but it's not on your list of dissallowed...

Edit: just thought of something.
Isn't Knowledge Devotion one of the better Wizard-based gish feats? It should fit nicely with your fluff. I believe its in Complete Champion, where you'll also find the rather solid Travel Devotion.
Uncle say ONE MORE THING.
Smiting Spell, no idea what book, but if you casting is progressed enough that a +1 Metamagic won't cripple you, its essentially Duskblade: the Feat.


I know you said no ToB, but Ruby Knight Vindicater is a thing, a WeeJassy kind of thing at that, and so does deserve mention. Its really, really, really baller.

I was thinking if anyone would mention it...swiftblade. I did not consider it before, but it seems that my character is much too underpowered, considering her party member include a grey elf conjurer who aims for the Rainbow Initiate and a half orc barbarian who has 20 STR at first level.

If she is just like 1pal/5wiz/1spellsword/4abjurant champion, her damaging ability would be sort of lame...And if I want to gain channelling spell feature, then she is going to lose a lot more caster levels anyway.

And thanks for mentioning knowledge devotion and smite spells, brilliant idea. (Though smite spells seems to be on banned list.)

[Astralia123]

well, what the sorc misses in spell knowledge, it makes up for it by giving more uses, Plus there is the metamagic on the fly ACF which is extremely helpful. Besides, it's not like you're going to be able to prepare for everything, better stick to something you are good at and which solves 90% of your problems.

Well, it becomes the problem that when you use sorcerer for a gish build, every bit of extra advantage you need is at the cost of known spells (sorcerer variants and substitute levels). And you have dragon magic, which is powerful but it always becomes that you can never take at least 1/5 your favourite spells.

[Faily]

My humble 2 cents.
Progression:
Level 2: Wizard 1. Improved Toughness (your Bonus Feat)
Level 3: Wizard 2. Combat Casting feat.
Level 4: Wizard 3. Increase Intelligence.
Level 5: Wizard 4.
Level 6: Wizard 5. Extend Spell (or any other Metamagic), Battle Casting (Races of the Wild, to increase your AC).
Level 7: Crusader 1.
Level 8: Jade Phoenix Mage 1. Increase Intelligence.
Level 9: Abjurant Champion 1. Arcane Strike.
Level 10: Abjurant Champion 2.
Level 11: Abjurant Champion 3.
Level 12: Abjurant Champion 4. Vital Recovery (Tome of Battle). Increase Intelligence.
Level 13: Abjurant Champion 5.
Level 14: Jade Phoenix Mage 2.
Level 15: Jade Phoenix Mage 3. Desert Fire (Tome of Battle).
Level 16: Jade Phoenix Mage 4. Increase Intelligence.
Level 17: Jade Phoenix Mage 5.
Level 18: Jade Phoenix Mage 6. Law Devotion (Complete Champion)
Level 19: Jade Phoenix Mage 7.
Level 20: Jade Phoenix Mage 8.

BAB +17/+12/+7/+2
Caster Level: 16 (effective CL 17 because of Abjurant Champion 5, +1 from Mystic Phoenix Stance, +3 on all Fire Spells from Firebird Stance)
Saves: Fortitude +12/ Reflex +4/ Will +10


Improved Toughness can help you get through the low-levels of squishy. Having played through Savage Tide myself... it will be hard.
Extend Spell can be replaced with pretty much anything else, but I find it a good Metamagic to pick up to make sure your buff-spells last long enough, something I think is needed for gish in my personal experience.
Battle Casting can also be dropped for something else. Again, the +2 Dodge bonus to AC can help you around this level as AC still matters then.
Arcane Strike. I don't need to explain why. XD
Vital Recovery helps you last longer. Crusader's Strike and Devoted Spirit stance will help you to stay alive too, but sometimes you need a bit more.
Desert Fire. Also changeable for something else, but this one adds a little bit more damage. You could go for Desert Wind Dodge instead for the AC if you want.
Law Devotion. At this point, it will give either +7 to AC or Attack for 1 minute, which helps you when you need to deliver that attack where you dropped both Arcane Strike and Arcane Wrath for much damage.

You could also just pick up Law Devotion earlier along with Power Attack to fully go supernova with Arcane Strike+Wrath.

The formula isn't a must-do, but I hope it gives some ideas. I've enjoyed playing many different fighter-mages and I'm a huge fan of JPM. ^_^ I've found that apart from Combat Casting (a requirement for most of the prestige classes) and Arcane Strike, your feat-selection can be pretty free for whatever you feel like.

On a side-note, I hated Savage Tide on the later levels. :smalltongue: It's a campaign that's decided to go from 1-20 so it never hurts to plan ahead for your character. She sounds like a very interesting character too, and I hope she survives (she reminds me of my first character in that campaign, a Favoured Soul... who died around level 4 or 5, I think :smallbiggrin: ).

[Socratov]

I'd trade Improved toughness for Improved Initiative. Besides, at 1st level you can't take it since Wizards don't get a +2 base save Fortitude bonus at 1st level (which, yes, is a prerequisite). Besides, it's better to kill first as opposed to tank the damage first

[Faily]

I'd trade Improved toughness for Improved Initiative. Besides, at 1st level you can't take it since Wizards don't get a +2 base save Fortitude bonus at 1st level (which, yes, is a prerequisite). Besides, it's better to kill first as opposed to tank the damage first

Improved Initiatve is a decent choice too.
Though as she did her first level as a Paladin, she already has +2 Fortitude, if I understood correctly. :smallsmile:

[Astralia123]

My humble 2 cents.
Progression:
Level 2: Wizard 1. Improved Toughness (your Bonus Feat)
Level 3: Wizard 2. Combat Casting feat.
Level 4: Wizard 3. Increase Intelligence.
Level 5: Wizard 4.
Level 6: Wizard 5. Extend Spell (or any other Metamagic), Battle Casting (Races of the Wild, to increase your AC).
Level 7: Crusader 1.
Level 8: Jade Phoenix Mage 1. Increase Intelligence.
Level 9: Abjurant Champion 1. Arcane Strike.
Level 10: Abjurant Champion 2.
Level 11: Abjurant Champion 3.
Level 12: Abjurant Champion 4. Vital Recovery (Tome of Battle). Increase Intelligence.
Level 13: Abjurant Champion 5.
Level 14: Jade Phoenix Mage 2.
Level 15: Jade Phoenix Mage 3. Desert Fire (Tome of Battle).
Level 16: Jade Phoenix Mage 4. Increase Intelligence.
Level 17: Jade Phoenix Mage 5.
Level 18: Jade Phoenix Mage 6. Law Devotion (Complete Champion)
Level 19: Jade Phoenix Mage 7.
Level 20: Jade Phoenix Mage 8.

BAB +17/+12/+7/+2
Caster Level: 16 (effective CL 17 because of Abjurant Champion 5, +1 from Mystic Phoenix Stance, +3 on all Fire Spells from Firebird Stance)
Saves: Fortitude +12/ Reflex +4/ Will +10


Improved Toughness can help you get through the low-levels of squishy. Having played through Savage Tide myself... it will be hard.
Extend Spell can be replaced with pretty much anything else, but I find it a good Metamagic to pick up to make sure your buff-spells last long enough, something I think is needed for gish in my personal experience.
Battle Casting can also be dropped for something else. Again, the +2 Dodge bonus to AC can help you around this level as AC still matters then.
Arcane Strike. I don't need to explain why. XD
Vital Recovery helps you last longer. Crusader's Strike and Devoted Spirit stance will help you to stay alive too, but sometimes you need a bit more.
Desert Fire. Also changeable for something else, but this one adds a little bit more damage. You could go for Desert Wind Dodge instead for the AC if you want.
Law Devotion. At this point, it will give either +7 to AC or Attack for 1 minute, which helps you when you need to deliver that attack where you dropped both Arcane Strike and Arcane Wrath for much damage.

You could also just pick up Law Devotion earlier along with Power Attack to fully go supernova with Arcane Strike+Wrath.

The formula isn't a must-do, but I hope it gives some ideas. I've enjoyed playing many different fighter-mages and I'm a huge fan of JPM. ^_^ I've found that apart from Combat Casting (a requirement for most of the prestige classes) and Arcane Strike, your feat-selection can be pretty free for whatever you feel like.

On a side-note, I hated Savage Tide on the later levels. :smalltongue: It's a campaign that's decided to go from 1-20 so it never hurts to plan ahead for your character. She sounds like a very interesting character too, and I hope she survives (she reminds me of my first character in that campaign, a Favoured Soul... who died around level 4 or 5, I think :smallbiggrin: ).

Thanks for the reply :)

My DM says he would change the plot structure and monsters of the module, so I guess it would not be that hopelessly hard.
As my party members are not going to use ToB, my DM does not recommend ToB, either. Hopefully he may stick to a lower level of combat difficulty then.
So for now I'm heading to swift blade and then abjurant champion. Seems I need some more power-ups like optional spells during my lower-level journey.



If my DM is okay with retraining, I would be okay with improved toughness. But I doubt so...
My own list of available feats include:

2 must：combat casting, arcane strike;
5 recommended: knowledge devotion, power attack, quick draw, smite spells, extend spells
2 would like to: nemesis/extra smite, craft arms&armour
2 optional: combat reflex+hold the line, dodge+mobility, combat expertise+improved disarm/trip

There is quick draw because in our game, switching one hand weapon to two-hand wielding is a move action and quick draw would solve that. Guess I'm going to need it at higher level.
For now I'm going to spend fighter bonus feats on mobility, as prerequisite for swift blade.


Hope the dices would be kind for me...
Last evening in a solo adventure, the dice failed me so vastly against a single 3HD human zombie that the battle took 5 rounds and 2 real world hours, costing me 2 clw from a wand, one Shield and still leaving me slightly injured :( And there seems to be still a gang of zombies waiting ahead.

Seriously, I get gradually more aware that, my character's greatest weakness is my low perception bonus, which leaves her quite vulnerable against ambushes. Maybe it is the point where a familiar needs to come into play...

[Dusk Eclipse]

I just want to mention that the main problem of Gish builds is that they take a long time to "warm" up so to speak, you probably won't be reaping the benefits of it until you start taking your first level in a gish prestige class (around level 6 or 7 in most cases), so I can only say, endure.

Feat-wise I'd suggest to get Combat Casting at some point, the feat itself sucks (Skill focus: Concentration is better in pretty much every situation), but it opens the way to for Abjurant champion, one of the best Gish prestige classes, if you go that route I'd go Paladin 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 8; you end with casting as a level 17 Wizard with 18 BAB which is pretty strong, again it take some time to come together, but I assure you it will be worth it.

Other option is going swiftblade, the normal entry is Wizard 6, but since you already have a Paladin level you loose yet another CL which means you'd had to leave the class at level 6 or you won't ever get 9th level spells, so I wouldn't do it if I were you.

Other useful feats you should consider in the long run are Extend Spell (you can get a rod though, so it is not a priority), eventually you will want to pick power attack (even if your BAB is lower, all the attack bonus you can get from spells will offset that), Arcane Strike is a gish staple, though I feel it is a little weaker on Wizards since they don't have as many spell slots to dump, Minor Shapeshift which is simply amazing and you should always pick it if you are able. Since you seem to favour reach weapons Combat Reflexes + Stand Still are also nice, don't worry about your low Dex since a) you have built in ways to improve it and b) you are not a lockdown fighter so 3 AoOs per round (2 dex +1 combat reflexes) should be more than enough. If you somehow get Turn undead (via sacred exorcist dip for example) you should also consider Divine feats, Divine might is pretty decent if you have decent charisma. If the campaign is undead heavy (I can't recall if Savage Tide is) Sacred Vengance and Sacred Vitality could be interesting.