(Pathfinder) So, my entire party has +5 cloaks of resistance...

[Nibbens]

Okay, first and formost - I'm going to pre-apologize for my rambling type of question. If you don't want to embark on this journey with me, please avoid the question now and I won't feel offended. For the rest of you, I still apologize for this mess...

So here we go:

Oftentimes, at level 16, a DM is not running 1 or 2 Cr 16 monsters. Instead he's running a boat load of CR13 or 14s. But the boat load of CR13 and 14s will have lower DC's for their abilities (which would make them worth-while in a fight, but only if they work).

My players are pretty heavy optimizers, and with all of them having +5 to all their saves via cloaks of resistance. I spend quite a lot of time looking for every little inch that I can get to crank up the DC's on my monsters so my players don't steam-roll everything.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not against having my PC's wipe the floor with my challenges, BUT every now and again I want to challenge them - to make them work for it - to make them sweat. If I don't, then what's the point of them playing. They need a legit challenge every now and again.

Perhaps I'm missing something. Most of the time, for my players to fail a DC they need to roll a 1-2 on the d20. (Well, okay, they are very heavily optimized).

Am I missing something, or are they supposed to be this solid at the upper end of their levels? I guess my line of questioning is more of an exploitative one, because I know if I wanted to, I could just throw a CR 20 monster at them and say "here ya go, have a challenge," but I guess I feel like a Cr16 should feel more threatening than "Oh, hey, I rolled a nat 2 on my save... So I got a 32, did I pass my save?" to which I respond "...yeah..."

Addendum: The above example is a slight exaggeration, but it illustrates the point.

Addendum2: Even though I've been running this game for more than half a year and the players are really liking it, this is still my first game at "above level 10," so I guess I'm kind of a noob at the higher level stuff. I mean, levels 1-8 I can write challenges in my sleep, but up here at 16, I'm spending a lot of my prep time trying to make sure that challenges are appropriate for my party and I kind of feel like I'm floundering.

TL:DR A CR 1 monster should have roughly an AC of 12 (give or take) - which means that an optimized fighter with +6 to his attack rolls (+4 str +1 BAB +1weapon focus) needs a 6 or higher to hit which is roughly hitting 70% of the time. Should this percentage go up as levels go on, or should it go down, or should it stay the same by the time the same fighter hits level 16? Also, do other class features follow this percentage type, and if they do can we determine the previous question about them as well?

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, you got a few options and you need to realize something.

pathfinder is rocket tag at levels 15+. If the party is fighting 10 CR 13 monsters, then they are facing 5-6 save or lose effects a round. There is a good chance that a party member falls to a spell or such each round.

The players are supposed to resist things that come from low level monsters. 3.5 had a table that showed that creatures much past party level-3 shouldn't give exp regardless of their numbers due to them just being too weak at any number.

[Novawurmson]

A couple ideas:

1. First, read this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?usp=drive_web). If you want your optimized players to have a challenging fight, you probably need to be creating CR+4 encounters. If the link doesn't work (my internet is being awful), Google GM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters.

2. Don't use low CR monsters that have to have someone fail a save to be useful - make sure they have a chance to deal direct damage, a partial effect on a successful save, no-save abilities (i.e. wall of stone), etc.

3. Use abilities that lower your players' saving throws - shaken, sickened, penalties/damage/drain to the relevant stat.

4. Use the advanced template. I generally find a CR 15 creature with the advanced template to be more threatening to my party than a CR 16 creature, for example.

5. Make sure you're targeting the right saves. Most optimizers tend to crank Fortitude and Will (as those contain the most debilitating conditions), but Reflex saves can be quite nasty to fail. Alternatively, if all your players are Dex-bassed with high Reflex saves, they might be weak in the other two.

6. Understand that failing saving throws is often very unfun for a player. If your Goblin Mook #3 fails a Will save and is stunned for 1d4 rounds, it doesn't really affect you as a GM. If Galdron Stormwrath fails the same Will save, the character your player has spent hours and hours building now stands like a moron for quite a long time IRL while your player has to sit and watch the rest of the group have fun. There are real reasons beyond optimization why players crank their saving throws.

[BWR]

My players have, at 16th level, two paladins with high ability scores and good gear; I feel your pain. Throwing anything that requires saves at them is basically wasteful, yet I can't metagame too much against my players and have all enemies know the strengths and weaknesses of the PCs either. for the most part I'm stuck hoping for those nat 1s (and hope it isn't something they are flat-out immune to anyway, like compulsions).

The way I've handled it is:
- lots of lower level creatures spamming stuff - sooner or later a PC is going to fail
- Rebuild creatures: Feats that increase DCs like Ability Focus or Spell Focus. More HD/Levels if necessary
- Pugwumpi gremlins (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/gremlin.html#gremlin) (I threw an encounter with 6 of these and a boss mosnter with ST abilities at my players and they hated my guts)

Apart from that, allow your players to mostly succeed their STs and throw encounters that don't have much by the way of STs at them. Don't ignore that altogether because if there is one thing players hate it's having spent time and effort making their characters good at something and never being able to show that off.

[Psyren]

TL:DR A CR 1 monster should have roughly an AC of 12 (give or take) - which means that an optimized fighter with +6 to his attack rolls (+4 str +1 BAB +1weapon focus) needs a 6 or higher to hit which is roughly hitting 70% of the time. Should this percentage go up as levels go on, or should it go down, or should it stay the same by the time the same fighter hits level 16? Also, do other class features follow this percentage type, and if they do can we determine the previous question about them as well?

Yes, it should go up. What you are forgetting is that a fighter's first hit should indeed be almost guaranteed - it has to be, because if he is missing with his best swing, then his iteratives are missing for sure and his damage output ends up in the sh***er relative to enemy HP totals.

[Asrrin]

Use a Boss + minions format for your encounters rather than 1 big guy or a bunch of small guys. If you want to challenge the players at CR 16, make a CR 16 or 17 caster with some increased DC feats, and then a bunch of CR 11 or 12 mooks to distract them and waste actions to get rid of. your main guy will be high enough to have decent DCs, and you still have the numbers you want.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also, for a twist, throw some combat brutes at them. Oozes save DCs are bad unless VERY advanced, but they have tremendous HP and a few of them can really tie up a party with their immunities.

[Nibbens]

A couple ideas:

1. First, read this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?usp=drive_web). If you want your optimized players to have a challenging fight, you probably need to be creating CR+4 encounters. If the link doesn't work (my internet is being awful), Google GM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters.

Holy... This just changed everything...


Understand that failing saving throws is often very unfun for a player. If your Goblin Mook #3 fails a Will save and is stunned for 1d4 rounds, it doesn't really affect you as a GM. If Galdron Stormwrath fails the same Will save, the character your player has spent hours and hours building now stands like a moron for quite a long time IRL while your player has to sit and watch the rest of the group have fun. There are real reasons beyond optimization why players crank their saving throws.

Noted. :)


- Pugwumpi gremlins (I threw an encounter with 6 of these and a boss mosnter with ST abilities at my players and they hated my guts)

That's just mean and evil and... well awesome!!!

[Abd al-Azrad]

Breaking a high-save enemy requires some setup. I might recommend a Witch with a Quickened Dispel Magic, targeting the Cloak of Resistance, and the Misfortune hex. Suppressing that +5 cloak and forcing a reroll on an enemy's save is worth a heck of a lot.

Or two low-level critters, one with the Ill Omen and one with the Dispel Magic.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Quickened Scorching Ray.
Appropriate, if you can't challenge your players otherwise. See, that cloak has 10 HP, pathetic AC and a hardness of 0. With said scorching ray, you may be getting rid of cloak+belt+headband in a single swift action. Then hit them with whatever you want in your standard action.


Optimized monsters.
CR 16 eh? That's an advanced succubus nightmare lady graveknight, antipaladin of Orcus 4, martial artist 4. Her Charm Monster and Control undead abilities have a base DC of 33. That's before adding her belt of charisma +6 or any ability focus feats.
Of course, high-level PCs are unlikely to fall to control effects. That's OK. She can deal decent damage in melee and she has a list of immunities longer than an average PCs entire character sheet. She's practically immune to any rocket-tag tactics.

[Elricaltovilla]

Quickened Scorching Ray.
Appropriate, if you can't challenge your players otherwise. See, that cloak has 10 HP, pathetic AC and a hardness of 0. With said scorching ray, you may be getting rid of cloak+belt+headband in a single swift action. Then hit them with whatever you want in your standard action.


Optimized monsters.
CR 16 eh? That's an advanced succubus nightmare lady graveknight, antipaladin of Orcus 4, martial artist 4. Her Charm Monster and Control undead abilities have a base DC of 33. That's before adding her belt of charisma +6 or any ability focus feats.
Of course, high-level PCs are unlikely to fall to control effects. That's OK. She can deal decent damage in melee and she has a list of immunities longer than an average PCs entire character sheet. She's practically immune to any rocket-tag tactics.

You're mean. I like you. I just hope you'd remember to account for the lost WBL for your poor players

[Lord of Shadows]

Use a Boss + minions format for your encounters rather than 1 big guy or a bunch of small guys. If you want to challenge the players at CR 16, make a CR 16 or 17 caster with some increased DC feats, and then a bunch of CR 11 or 12 mooks to distract them and waste actions to get rid of. your main guy will be high enough to have decent DCs, and you still have the numbers you want.

This group needs an enemy.. someone set on bringing them down. This enemy will have watched them fight enough to get an idea what they can do and will adjust to that.

Suggested Mook for this party: Glabrezu, they can hang back and cast Dispel Magic at-will at CL 14 (Cloaks of Resistance +5 are normally made by a CL 15). Get a few of these beasties together in one place and this group's magic items, buff spells, etc. suddenly stop working.


Also, for a twist, throw some combat brutes at them. Oozes save DCs are bad unless VERY advanced, but they have tremendous HP and a few of them can really tie up a party with their immunities.

Constructs also make good brutes. Plant an Iron Golem immolated in a permanent Wall of Fire in their way and watch them squirm.
.

[ninjamaster1991]

I just hope you'd remember to account for the lost WBL for your poor players
The obvious solution would be to combine the two - the more sor/wiz mooks breaking the party's loot, the more equipment you can justify giving to your über-succubus.

[Sayt]

The CR system, when it's working (Which isn't often), assumes only moderate optimization. If your party are more than moderately optimised, the CR system is going to need some minor tweaking.

Like, i'm running a party through carrion crown, and they're aboslutely steamrolling the encounters, so I've tweaked all the monsters up a bit (more than a bit) ((I don't care what the CRB says, 8 flaming skeletons and two wizard 3/rogue 3 is not a CR 8 encounter))

[Spore]

I like the "World of Warcraft" Raid Encounter mechanic for some switched up fights. Think of a lair of superbad dudes that can be killed by a well played average party. And then comes the BBEG and/or his lieutenants that are not only highly overleveled but crassly overpowering the party.

Think 25th level Archmage against your 15th level party. BUT: Your party typically has a mechanical advantage from being boosted by environment (fighting in a zone where the Archmage's magic is dampened but not yours), the enemy Undead Lord gets weakened by a Cleric continously channeling some sort of DM fiat undead debuff.

Or be bland and give them overpowered gear but just for one fight: We had to beat a CR 18 Daemon with a party of Lv 10s in the safety of an astral projection and with +5 Holy Weapons for everyone.

[LTwerewolf]

By level 16, a lot of your enemies can have heard of your heroes, and their nigh immunity to spells. You can work around this without losing any realism.

[jedipotter]

Add Templates A template can sure boost a monster. The Advanced template is just for this. Another thing to look for is templates that add to Charisma. Charisma increases also increase a monsters DC's for things like spell like abilities.

Feats Ability boost is obvious as it adds +2 to the DC of something. Remember you don't have to use the ''by the book'' feats, you can give any monster any feat.

No Saves Not everything has a save...look for stuff with no saves. Ice Storm, for example, has no save. And it's a spell like ability for an ice devil, at will.

Other Effects plenty of attacks, like grapple and trip, don't use saving throws. Try a couple orc barbarians for example.

[Der_DWSage]

It sounds like one of the primary things you want to do is lower their saves to make them vulnerable, though not giving a sure thing. In addition to Witch shenanigans as seen above, I'd also recommend the many ways to Intimidate someone as a free action, combined with a Sickening weapon or two. Suddenly, the sickened person is looking at a -4 on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and a -2 on damage. This is going to impact anyone's effectiveness.

I would also highly recommend you take a close look at the Dirty Trick rules, as well as the associated feats. No saving throw, just CMD. Your lower-level guys become a lot more intimidating if they're aiding another to kick you in the jimmies repeatedly, making you nauseated for 1d4 rounds. Even if you can remove it as a standard action...that's still evening out the action economy a bit better than 'Welp, you made your save. I guess I'm doing nothing.'

[Novawurmson]

I would also highly recommend you take a close look at the Dirty Trick rules, as well as the associated feats. No saving throw, just CMD. Your lower-level guys become a lot more intimidating if they're aiding another to kick you in the jimmies repeatedly, making you nauseated for 1d4 rounds. Even if you can remove it as a standard action...that's still evening out the action economy a bit better than 'Welp, you made your save. I guess I'm doing nothing.'

Oh man, dirty trick can screw over some characters. I've got a stalker/psychic warrior I'm GMing for can crank his AC into the low 40s at level 10/"mythic" 2. I had someone use dirty trick to blind him, and it tanked his AC. It was a 1v1 arena battle, too, so he had to very carefully whittle his opponent down with skirmish tactics to avoid taking another jab in the eye.

[Blink Knight]

This is the rules variant that felt casters were not powerful enough so it gave them an additional 10 or so on their save DCs as well as other effects such as making the target take the lower of two saves, correct? And then, along with all that it greatly reduced the number of save bonuses available?

Why is this even happening?

[Extra Anchovies]

This is the rules variant that felt casters were not powerful enough so it gave them an additional 10 or so on their save DCs as well as other effects such as making the target take the lower of two saves, correct?

Where are these two options? No variant rules have been discussed here.

[Der_DWSage]

This is the rules variant that felt casters were not powerful enough so it gave them an additional 10 or so on their save DCs as well as other effects such as making the target take the lower of two saves, correct? And then, along with all that it greatly reduced the number of save bonuses available?

Why is this even happening?

Is...this 5th edition you're talking about? There's been no mention of anything like this. Unless you're talking about Pugwampi's Grace, which is another spell, not any kind of subsystem.

I'm honestly curious what this rules variant might be. Granted, mostly so I can avoid it and possibly mock the person who wrote it. (In private, with my friends. I'm not a complete jerk.)

[Blink Knight]

Where are these two options? No variant rules have been discussed here.

"Re: >(Pathfinder)< So, my entire party has +5 cloaks of resistance..."

That's the rules variant. As for how, increased casting stats, more bonuses on save DCs, metamagics that make spells repeat... I forget the complete list, but it was enough so that mooks at these levels would be throwing out DCs in the mid 30s, and you'd pass both of those or get hit.

It also doesn't have all those 3.5 spells that boost saves, and doesn't give the save bonuses for multiclassing so realistically you need 2 consecutive 20s for any save and I am completely mystified about how the OP could possibly have the opposite problem. Perhaps using 3.5 rules allowing characters decent saves and making casters only moderately overpowered instead of immensely?

[Der_DWSage]

Ah, that explains it. You're not talking about a rules variant in Pathfinder, just referring to it as a rules variant. Fair enough.

But there really isn't a whole lot you can do to pump save DCs. Persistent spell is a nice feat to have, but it's also a +2 metamagic, and not allowable by RAW to apply to a spell-like ability-which also means that no monsters have it as a feat, so it's very possible by the GM to forget about it.

Still not sure where you're getting a +10 on save DCs, though. Or any kind of bonus. Most opponents from the bestiary are unlikely to have a save DC that can beat out a mildly optimized character, which it sounds like the OP is running a game for. Many GM-built mages using NPC WBL will have difficulty beating those same saves. You could potentially rebuild monsters from the bestiary to do so, but that would be time-consuming and moderately difficult, depending on the opponent's level.

That said, if you do actually have methods for pumping up DCs out the wazoo, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

[Blink Knight]

Ah, that explains it. You're not talking about a rules variant in Pathfinder, just referring to it as a rules variant. Fair enough.

But there really isn't a whole lot you can do to pump save DCs. Persistent spell is a nice feat to have, but it's also a +2 metamagic, and not allowable by RAW to apply to a spell-like ability-which also means that no monsters have it as a feat, so it's very possible by the GM to forget about it.

Still not sure where you're getting a +10 on save DCs, though. Or any kind of bonus. Most opponents from the bestiary are unlikely to have a save DC that can beat out a mildly optimized character, which it sounds like the OP is running a game for. Many GM-built mages using NPC WBL will have difficulty beating those same saves. You could potentially rebuild monsters from the bestiary to do so, but that would be time-consuming and moderately difficult, depending on the opponent's level.

That said, if you do actually have methods for pumping up DCs out the wazoo, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

By his own words, they are typically passing saves on a 2. He blames cloaks of resistance for this, but at worst they'd pass on a 7 without those. So clearly they have a large amount of additional save bonuses in a system notorious for removing the same (as well as defensive options in general).

As for spells and save DCs, there are a fairly large number of enemies that flat out cast as an xth level caster, no SLAs involved. And because he said enemy, not monster they could very well be humanoid casters (who would have no difficulty whatsoever getting insane save DCs, even if you ignore the hilariously broken rule that gives them PC class wealth for +1 CR).

As for the how, higher casting stats, more buying power with feats, more misc bonuses, Persistent Spell... It is fair to assume that for this scenario to exist at all you have an entire party with saves of 30+. Which is moderately impressive in 3.5, and almost certainly not even mathematically possible here.

Alternately, the party has more like +10 or +15 saves and is just fighting REALLY weak casters.

[Nibbens]

By his own words, they are typically passing saves on a 2. He blames cloaks of resistance for this, but at worst they'd pass on a 7 without those. So clearly they have a large amount of additional save bonuses in a system notorious for removing the same (as well as defensive options in general).

As for spells and save DCs, there are a fairly large number of enemies that flat out cast as an xth level caster, no SLAs involved. And because he said enemy, not monster they could very well be humanoid casters (who would have no difficulty whatsoever getting insane save DCs, even if you ignore the hilariously broken rule that gives them PC class wealth for +1 CR).

As for the how, higher casting stats, more buying power with feats, more misc bonuses, Persistent Spell... It is fair to assume that for this scenario to exist at all you have an entire party with saves of 30+. Which is moderately impressive in 3.5, and almost certainly not even mathematically possible here.

Alternately, the party has more like +10 or +15 saves and is just fighting REALLY weak casters.

A 16 level character has a +10 save bonus in their highest save. The player would have started with am 18 or 16 in at least one of their save stats, so that gives them +3 at minimum. They all have access to Headbands/Belts of Physical/Mental Perfection +4 due to character wealth at their level (or +6 in one stat if they went that route, so they received an additional +2 to saves at minimum. Cloak of resistance +5 is a paltry 25k considering the 240K gold for characters of their level (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html).

So without getting into the smaller bonuses from various class/feat/additional magic item features they have purchased they are up to at least +20 (or +22 at high end) on all saves before adding even more.

The primary ability DC for a 15 level monster is 23, and for a 16th level monster is 24. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html) (And I've cross referenced these numbers against several in the bestiary, so I know they're correct.

So, +20-22 bonus (at minimum) to saves against a DC 23 or 24 is Literally a roll above 3 on average (2-4 depending on party member). Remember this is all before additional save bonuses from various sources I'm not accounting for.

EDIT: So this means that at minimum 90%-80% of the time they save on DC's against their highest save. On their weaker saves we're looking at +15-17 bonus at minimum again, however, these are also the stats which they are able to add a bunch of additives to get it higher. Regardless, at minimum were looking at a 7-9 roll or less (35-45% chance) to fail on their lower saves, which i admit is more easy to swallow, but remember, these numbers are at minimum and certainly not representative of what my players are capable of doing!

... Yeah, (SO NOW after my edits) I'm all mathed out. lol.

Anyway, This is my situation as it stands - not to mention the damn pally who gets additional bonuses from divine grace (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/paladin.html#paladin) who literally bumps him to the "He has to roll a 1 to get affected by something" category. lol.

*** Oh! Every four levels they get a +1 to any score of their choice. so at level 16 they have a maximum of +4 into any one stat. Which means an average bump of at least +1 or at worst +2 into at least one save. So lets not forget those.

Now, I've read the GM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1), and I have to say this answers a lot of things. I was well aware of Action Economy, but I wasn't aware of how massively this affects the gameplay - and the CR+4 rule is definitely an eyeopener. lol.

So hopefully this sets the record straight against this statement at least:
Alternately, the party has more like +10 or +15 saves and is just fighting REALLY weak casters..
Unless, of course, Blink Knight, if you're referring to "Really weak casters" as threats with the same CR as their APL, then you are completely correct. lol.

Now, you do bring up a very good point: Playing caster level X stuff against them - which is fine, but any time there is an example of this in the bestiary, the highest save dc for these spells are always in line with the "Average Primary save DC" for a monster of their level. So, "No Save" spells are a definite addition to my upcoming arsenal, however. :)

[Blink Knight]

That math sounds about right for 3.5. But we're still talking about a much more offensively oriented rules variant.

Take the 23 or 24, boost it by 10 because of spellcasting buffs, and then add in Persistent Spell and suddenly it's at best 2 consecutive 14+s, which is what? 1/9? While that's considerably better than the 1/400 I was expecting, it's also considerably worse than the 1/20 that is apparently happening.

And a really weak caster would be something like a Bard without full casting progression and/or minimum mental stats for their spells.

All of that is also before considering save nuking effects, which I am fairly sure still exist.

It's also before considering save or lose anyways effects. Humanoids have low life, even a Fireball (or similar) with a few metamagics would probably 2 hit the party on a save. Unless they all have Evasion?

I am just completely bewildered on how anyone has any survivability at all in a glass cannon system, much less enough so that they have the opposite problem.

[Nibbens]

boost it by 10 because of spellcasting buffs.

Still losing me. Could you provide some names and/or links to these buffs? I get that they exist, (like owls wisdom and whatnot) but I'm uncertain of how to get +10 out of them.

Persistent spell could be nice for straight up casters, but I'm also referring to ability DC's as well for monsters special attacks as well. Sorry, thought i'd clarify.

[Der_DWSage]

Take the 23 or 24, boost it by 10 because of spellcasting buffs, and then add in Persistent Spell and suddenly it's at best 2 consecutive 14+s, which is what? 1/9? While that's considerably better than the 1/400 I was expecting, it's also considerably worse than the 1/20 that is apparently happening.

Emphasis mine. Please expand on this alleged +10 DC spellcasting buff, because I seriously can't find such, and would find it relevant to my GMing interests.

I think you might not be getting 'how they could possibly save' because you're pulling numbers out of thin air that either don't exist, or are so uncommon as to be restricted to legitimate boss battles and GMPCs.

[Ssalarn]

I was just going to chime in and say that the game actually assumes that a party of 16th level characters will all be rocking cloaks of resistance +5, +6-7 weapons, +6-7 armor (obviously with the normal +5 cap + other bonuses), and +4-+6 stat boosters. That isn't even optimizing yet, that is just having the stuff the game assumes you have.

As others have mentioned the solution is probably to:

Eliminate rolled stats and go with a standard point buy. 20 fits best within the expected parameters of the game.
Don't use lower CR creatures that rely on save-based effects to be effective.
If the actual character optimization is high, not just their gear, consider setting challenges that are supposed to be difficult at the CR/APL +4 range. Liberal use of the Advanced simple template is also helpful.


And don't get discouraged when they wipe the floor with your monsters on CR or CR +1 challenges, that's supposed to happen. The game is balanced for the party to win, as evidenced by the fact that an equal level, same number party of villains with 25% of the wealth your group has is supposed to be an "epic" encounter.

[Extra Anchovies]

Liberal use of the Advanced simple template is also helpful.

This. That template can make base-level animals into nasty opponents at the right levels; imagine what it does to, say, a...

You know what, I'm not at all familiar with most of the unique-to-Pathfinder monsters. I should go read the bestiary.

[Crake]

Is there rules for advancing monsters by HD in pathfinder? Because in 3.5 that was a good source for increasing typical DCs for many abilities. For example, I put together an advanced, lolth-touched phase spider. A typical phase spider is 5HD and CR5, but advancing it by HD increased that CR at a less than 1:1 rate, allowing it to get to Huge size, which came with buffs of it's own, and adding lolth-touched it ended up at 9HD, and with ability focus as it's 9HD feat, CR8 with a comparitive DC of it's poison of 24, vs the normal phase spider's 17. That's a 7 point increase over only 3CR

[Blink Knight]

Emphasis mine. Please expand on this alleged +10 DC spellcasting buff, because I seriously can't find such, and would find it relevant to my GMing interests.

I think you might not be getting 'how they could possibly save' because you're pulling numbers out of thin air that either don't exist, or are so uncommon as to be restricted to legitimate boss battles and GMPCs.

If you're assuming that both the party and the enemies are not utilizing the system at all I could see why you'd assume low numbers. Getting high defensive numbers in a low defense system requires utilizing that system very effectively if it is mathematically possible at all.

So when you take poorly built enemies, and run them against well made parties what happens? That's right, a one sided fight.

It follows then if you don't want enemy attacks shaken off 95% of the time, enemies must be well built. So dismissing absolutely any form of save DC boosting as a tool for bosses and self insert characters? Rather laughable.

And because it is an offensively biased system, the instant enemies start using the offensive options available you hit the opposite problem. No one can defend against their attacks. Regardless, that does fix the current problem. For example:


Is there rules for advancing monsters by HD in pathfinder? Because in 3.5 that was a good source for increasing typical DCs for many abilities. For example, I put together an advanced, lolth-touched phase spider. A typical phase spider is 5HD and CR5, but advancing it by HD increased that CR at a less than 1:1 rate, allowing it to get to Huge size, which came with buffs of it's own, and adding lolth-touched it ended up at 9HD, and with ability focus as it's 9HD feat, CR8 with a comparitive DC of it's poison of 24, vs the normal phase spider's 17. That's a 7 point increase over only 3CR

With minor system utilization one of the worst creature types for advancement becomes much more threatening. This actually isn't what I meant, I meant actual spell boosting. But if it must be a monster, that's how you do it.

[Elricaltovilla]

readies acid flask