Building a 6th level crossbow user

[evangaline]

I am playing in a roughly tier 3 group as a druid, I do not overpower my teammates because I try to play support though. The others in my party are a non-DMM cleric and a very reasonably optimised ranger. Everyone is level 6. Multiclass penalties are ignored, and wealth by level can be a little more then recommended. Now I need your help to allow a new player who just converted from fourth to join our game: She is Hell-bent on playing a crossbow user.

This is of course not a bad thing, but I am not that expierenced with crossbow using.

After a quick look at the guides I think I have most of the feats sorted out depending on which path to take, The options are:
1. A long range sniper, or 2. A short range archer. With feats such as far shot, crossbow sniper and exotic weapon proficiency great crossbow the long range sniper should be quite potent, but with handcrossbows the close range archer could do a lot of things as well.


Now onto my question, which one of these is better, and why?
Also, which classes do you think fits which the close range style best?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Long ranger is best range IMHO. IF you get close enemies will just walk up to you an attempt to turn you into a walk pile of AoO provocations.

[Sian]

Crossbow sniper is only viable for short/medium range, since it only works within 60ft

Short range would most likely use a Light Crossbow and Crossbow Sniper, Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload for starters

[Zaq]

Crossbow use is pretty feat-heavy. You'll need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at a minimum, because everyone doing ranged stuff in 3.5 needs Precise Shot. Then you'll want Rapid Reload by the time you can make more than one attack a turn (be that through iteratives, Rapid Shot, or both, though of course Rapid Shot is another feat). Crossbow Sniper is a good feat, but it takes Weapon Focus as a prereq. (If you use hand crossbows, Hand Crossbow Focus from DotU rolls Weapon Focus and Rapid Reload into one, but you have to be a Rogue or another class that gets proficiency with them, or else you have to burn a feat on proficiency, and then you're back where you started.) So if you want Crossbow Sniper, that's five feats, not counting Rapid Shot or anything else that's actually fun. Three feats if you're willing to skip Crossbow Sniper, but if you're losing Crossbow Sniper, you may as well just use a regular bow and reflavor it as a crossbow, because Crossbow Sniper is pretty much the only advantage a dedicated crossbow user has over a bow user. (The other benefit of a crossbow is that a lot of things have proficiency in it, so it's a decent backup weapon with no real investment, but that's not a benefit for a dedicated user like your friend wants to be.)

6th level means three feats from leveling, possibly plus one feat for human, possibly plus two feats if your GM allows flaws. If flaws are allowed, a human with two flaws can pull this off and be pretty much whatever class you like. Without flaws, you pretty much need at least a couple levels of Fighter, just because you've gotta get the feats from somewhere. Hit-and-Run Fighter (DotU) is probably a good option if you go for Fighter, even though Crossbow Sniper doesn't actually increase the range at which Hit-and-Run Tactics works (it's still 30 feet). Going full Fighter is probably overkill . . . you do need a lot of feats, but once you get the five feats I mentioned above (six with Rapid Shot), there aren't too many more feats that will be better than actual class features. Rogue might be a decent choice—ranged Sneak Attack is a little tricky after round 1 (you basically need some way of reliably hiding, or else something like Blink), but depending on the party, it can work. Scout works if you have Travel Devotion or another way of getting free movement, but that's more feats. If you're willing to go for a character with some magic up their sleeve, going Bard might be an interesting option, because you can still sing and shoot (sure, it takes an action to turn on Inspire Courage, but at least you get to benefit from your own bonuses), even though full Inspire Courage optimization takes a few more feats. Clerics make good archers—you probably need to spend yet another feat on Zen Archery, but you might be able to use your domains to pick up one or more of your prereq feats (I think the Elf domain gives Point Blank Shot, and if you can find a deity whose favored weapon is the crossbow, the War domain gets you Weapon Focus).

Ultimately, crossbows just don't get a whole lot of love. You need a lot of feats to start, but once you get those feats, you don't have anywhere obvious to go. Depending on how high-op the group is as a whole, this might not be an issue, but there's really a cap on how good you can end up being with crossbows for the sake of crossbows.

[evangaline]

snip
That is some great advice, thank you very much! We can use 2 flaws, which means that she will probably go rogue 6 and go into the assasin after that.

It is really a shame that there is little support for crossbow users, but mundane's have it rough every once a while.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another good option for crossbow use is a Scout 3 / Ranger 3. Take the swift hunter feat and you can get around the sneak attack immunity of your favored enemies. Pick arcanists and undead with elementals, constructs, oozes and plants to follow. You loose out on number of attacks until you get greater multishot, but you get some of the feats from ranger and you won't suffer getting shut down like a rogue does every time you face something immune to sneak attack.

[Zaq]

Another good option for crossbow use is a Scout 3 / Ranger 3. Take the swift hunter feat and you can get around the sneak attack immunity of your favored enemies. Pick arcanists and undead with elementals, constructs, oozes and plants to follow. You loose out on number of attacks until you get greater multishot, but you get some of the feats from ranger and you won't suffer getting shut down like a rogue does every time you face something immune to sneak attack.

(Greater) Manyshot doesn't work with crossbows. If you want to make a crossbow-using Scout, you pretty much need Travel Devotion.

[RolandDeschain]

I'm away from books at the moment, but if they choose to focus on an exotic crossbow of some kind, exotic weapon master might be a good PrC, I believe it requires of the aforementioned feats to qualify for the class to begin with and you can get Close-Quarters Fighting as a class feature.

You'll need to double-check that, I'm just workin' off the top of my head.

[Telok]

(Greater) Manyshot doesn't work with crossbows. If you want to make a crossbow-using Scout, you pretty much need Travel Devotion.

Or just accept that you won't be doing full attack actions. You don't have to be maximum uber damage god, you just need to be competent and in line with the rest of the party.

Other options include Adaptive Weapon enhancement tricks and the Exotic Weapon Master PrC. Most DMs will allow Improved Feint and Bow Feint, some will allow Lightning Mace cheese too.

There is a fighter variant called Targeteer that can pick up great and hand crossbows, plus a couple of shooting tricks. Of course simply replacing 'bow' with 'crossbow' in some cleric archer builds works well too.

[Fouredged Sword]

Considering that at 6th level you can be at best +6/+1 bab, losing that second attack hurts, but not that badly.

Point blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid reload, Craven, crossbow sniper... Everything else is gravy. A gnomish scope pushes that out to sneak attacking or skirmishing at 90ft (I think I have that right).

A rogue 6 has evasion and more damage, a scout / ranger will hit a little more frequently, do precision damage more consistently, have better AC, and an easier time activating their bonus damage, but eats another feat.

[Lord of Shadows]

As far as weapons go, take a look at the Deathwand Crossbow in the Arms & Equipment Guide ("Crossbow, Deathwand" starting at the bottom of Pg. 103). It's a +2 Light Crossbow with slots for two wands, which can be swapped in as a move action, and the wielder of the crossbow is considered to be wielding both wands as well as the weapon and can use them all normally. Cost just over 10k.

And don't forget you can also snap a bayonet onto a crossbow for close-quarters melee.
.

[ace rooster]

Considering that at 6th level you can be at best +6/+1 bab, losing that second attack hurts, but not that badly.

Point blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid reload, Craven, crossbow sniper... Everything else is gravy. A gnomish scope pushes that out to sneak attacking or skirmishing at 90ft (I think I have that right).

A rogue 6 has evasion and more damage, a scout / ranger will hit a little more frequently, do precision damage more consistently, have better AC, and an easier time activating their bonus damage, but eats another feat.

From memory (not hugely reliable) I think the gnomish sight lets you ignore the first two range penalties. For a distance heavy crossbow it does nothing for enemies within 240ft, but does mean you can hit out to 720ft without penalty.

One thing that a crossbow user gets over a bow user is +4 to AC (or +2 from kneeling), because why would they be standing up?

For either role I would suggest looking at rogue 2, diviner 2, SA fighter 1, assassin x. Loses no more BAB than rogue assassin, and is only 1 level behind a rogue sneak attack wise. 3 decent saves, and slightly more HP than a standard rogue, and picks up all the basic class features. Trading the SA fighter for a regular fighter or more rogue works fine too. Snipers shot (no limit to sneak attack range), true strike and insightful feint (for easy melee SA) are all first level wizard divinations, so don't underestimate the value of a couple of levels of wizard (and a ring of wizardry 1). Poison use is a fairly rare ability, so make good use of that too.

This build is not super powered at any role, but good for finding your feet in the system.

[SinsI]

I suggest her to rethink her idea:
Crossbows are not meant to be the main weapon. Historically, they were given to untrained peasants so that they could hit targets about as well as a trained longbowmen (although it takes far longer to reload it, so their rate of fire sucks).

D&D, reflecting it, made them simple weapons, and has only minimal support for them - if you make a build concentrating on them, you are going to be left behind by the other players.

If she really doesn't want anything else, drow are passable with their hand crossbows as long as they properly utilize the poison.
Drow wizard 4 or cleric 4 might be playable.

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider a Rogue 1 / Sneak attack hit and run fighter 1 / rogue 3 / Assassin 1. That nets you 4d6 sneak attack and the hit and run fighter ACF, meaning you add your dex to damage if you catch your opponent flat footed. You can't poison yourself by mistake, and death attack is useful if you have a chance to pull it off (niche, but good for ambushes).

[Darrin]

1. A long range sniper, or 2. A short range archer. With feats such as far shot, crossbow sniper and exotic weapon proficiency great crossbow the long range sniper should be quite potent, but with handcrossbows the close range archer could do a lot of things as well.


Now onto my question, which one of these is better, and why?
Also, which classes do you think fits which the close range style best?

2. Short range. Most DMs don't start combat at a range where long range archery can be effective. Even if they do, several rounds of watching only one PC attack is really *really* boring. Or worse, while the archer gets to attack, everybody else is busy buffing, which means when both sides finally close to melee range, the PCs curbstomp everything in one round, which frustrates the DM and/or convinces him that he can't challenge the PCs unless he teleports a dozen ancient dragons into their camp.

A simple Scout 4/Ranger 16 Swift Hunter with an elvencraft longbow should suffice, but if you have to have a crossbow, this is my best stab at it:

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, or Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), Human: PB Shot, Bonus: Track. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion). Favored Enemy: Undead.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Rapid Reload. Skirmish 1d6
4) Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow.
5) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Crossbow Sniper (PHBII). Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
9) Ranger 4. Champion of the Wild ACF -> Bonus: Manyshot (Complete Champion), Feat: Improved Rapid Shot. Animal Companion -> Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion).
10) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
11) Dragon Devotee 1.
12) Dragon Devotee 2. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Dragon Devotee 3. 1st level Sorcerer casting (pick at least 2 divination spells, such as true strike and sniper's shot, ask DM to let skirmish count).
14) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4
15) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4
16) Unseen Seer 2. Advanced Learning: hunter's eye (PHBII spell)
17) Unseen Seer 3.
18) Unseen Seer 4. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4
19) Highland Stalker 1.
20) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4
Note: Take Dragonblood of Bahumat after ECL 8 for the Wings aspect, drop Endurance instead of your human bonus feat.

Here's a variant that uses a Cloistered Cleric dip instead of a Fighter dip. There's a LG deity called Mouqol (merchant god of genies and merfolk) that actually has Favored Weapon: light crossbow. He doesn't have the war domain, but we can fix that with Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment, and he does have Travel, Knowledge, and Trickery, so we can pick up those devotions.

Race: Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc.
1) Ranger 1. Feat: PB Shot, Bonus: Track. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion). Favored Enemy: Undead.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Rapid Reload. Skirmish 1d6
4) Cloistered Cleric 1. Bonus: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Trickery Devotion.
5) Ranger 3. Endurance -> Planar Touchstone -> WF Light Crossbow.
6) Scout 2. Feat: Crossbow Sniper.
7) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
8) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
9) Ranger 4. Champion of the Wild ACF -> Bonus: Manyshot (Complete Champion), Feat: Improved Rapid Shot. Animal Companion -> Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion).
10) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
11) Dragon Devotee 1.
12) Dragon Devotee 2. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Dragon Devotee 3. 1st level Sorcerer casting (pick at least 2 divination spells, such as true strike and sniper's shot, ask DM to let skirmish count).
14) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4
15) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Extra Turning. Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4
16) Unseen Seer 2. Advanced Learning: hunter's eye (PHBII spell)
17) Unseen Seer 3.
18) Unseen Seer 4. Feat: Woodland Archer (RotW). Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4
19) Highland Stalker 1.
20) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4