Ban Hammer

[INDYSTAR188]

Hello everyone! I am starting a campaign soon-ish and in preparation for that I am trying to lay down some of the basic ground-rules for the table. I am thinking of letting them roll 4d6, re-roll 1's or take 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10. I anticipate the game going to level 16 or 17, I know I am going to run Horde of the Dragon Queen and then maybe Rise of Tiamet. I might just do my own thing after HotDQ we'll see. There will be multiclassing and feats.

My question to you is whether I should ban anything? I think I might ban Contagion: Slimy Doom and Simulacrum, they might never have even came up in game but I just don't want to deal with them.

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, there's pretty much no legit use for Simulacrum within the context of game balance. I agree on striking that one.

Regarding Contagion, keep in mind the tweet that said it takes three failed saves to be initially affected. That would make it far less of an auto-win button.

Other than that, don't let Fabricate provide infinite wealth (you're the DM so keep that economy in check!), strike the spellcasting of summoned pixies, and perhaps only allow x number of Animate Dead spells active at any one time, and you should be mostly good for the rampant abuses.

[Shining Wrath]

Suggested fix for much of the problems posed by Simulacrum:

1) The Simulacrum has half as many spell slots, rounded down, as the target, and can never regain them.
2) No creature lacking in free will can cast a spell or use a spell-like ability or feature or trait which gives it control over another creature. Thus, a Simulacrum cannot cast Simulacrum from a scroll, a Dominated creature cannot cast Charm spells, and so on.

[MaxWilson]

Suggested fix for much of the problems posed by Simulacrum:

1) The Simulacrum has half as many spell slots, rounded down, as the target, and can never regain them.
2) No creature lacking in free will can cast a spell or use a spell-like ability or feature or trait which gives it control over another creature. Thus, a Simulacrum cannot cast Simulacrum from a scroll, a Dominated creature cannot cast Charm spells, and so on.

This doesn't really prevent Simulacrum from being awesome. You can double the damage of any ranged character in your party, e.g. fighter, ranger, or warlock.

Whether it is a problem that Simulacrum is still awesome, well, that depends on your taste. I know it is way up there on my list of desirable spells when I hit 13th level, and would remain so under these rules.

[DanyBallon]

As for myself, I don't see any problem with Contagion as it requires 3 failed saves to affect the targets for the duration, and on 3 success, the target recovers from the disease

And as for Simulacrum, it might be just me, but the first use I saw for that spell was to capture someone and replaced it with a simulacrum that will do as you wish, either to mislead someone else, or to use as a scapegoat...
I would be really disappointed in my players if the only use they get for this spell, is to create a duplicate of one of them to help in fights...

Just my 2cp

[Arzanyos]

With Simulacrum, I think just bringing the banhammer down on chaining it'll work. It's still powerful, but also expensive and time consuming.

[MaxWilson]

And as for Simulacrum, it might be just me, but the first use I saw for that spell was to capture someone and replaced it with a simulacrum that will do as you wish, either to mislead someone else, or to use as a scapegoat...
I would be really disappointed in my players if the only use they get for this spell, is to create a duplicate of one of them to help in fights...

All right. How about replacing one of your fellow party members with a simulacrum of himself, without telling the player. He won't even know anything is wrong until you give him an order and he finds he must obey. Would that satisfy you? :-)

(I know, I know. In practice this wouldn't work. For one thing, they would notice that they only had half HP.)

[Gurka]

If anybody is playing a Moon Druid, they can really throw things out of whack in the first 4 or 5 levels, so you might think about limiting their shapeshift forms a bit at early levels. Later on they even out though.

Otherwise, I'd consider a hard look at Sleep. It's level 1, but puts an average of 22.5 HP (5D8) worth of creatures to sleep WITH NO SAVE. Cast at higher levels, it adds extra D8's. It's not game breaking necessarily, but I've had one player use it to really devastating effect. Enough to trivialize multiple encounters.

[WickerNipple]

As a counter-balance to all this crazy ban-happiness...

Don't ban anything. Let have fun how they want to and adapt.

[INDYSTAR188]

Yeah, there's pretty much no legit use for Simulacrum within the context of game balance. I agree on striking that one.

Regarding Contagion, keep in mind the tweet that said it takes three failed saves to be initially affected. That would make it far less of an auto-win button.

Other than that, don't let Fabricate provide infinite wealth (you're the DM so keep that economy in check!), strike the spellcasting of summoned pixies, and perhaps only allow x number of Animate Dead spells active at any one time, and you should be mostly good for the rampant abuses.

I really just don't want to deal with any of the Simalcrum schenanigans so I'm posative that's out. I don't want to ban all the Contagion options, just the Slimy Doom. Even with the three save tweet I would rather just not deal with it, my guys can be very literal by RAW. I will be sure to explicitly say we are adhering to the spirit of the rules, RAI when it comes to judicating them.

Any thoughts on the stat array or 4d6, re-roll 1's?


If anybody is playing a Moon Druid, they can really throw things out of whack in the first 4 or 5 levels, so you might think about limiting their shapeshift forms a bit at early levels. Later on they even out though.

Otherwise, I'd consider a hard look at Sleep. It's level 1, but puts an average of 22.5 HP (5D8) worth of creatures to sleep WITH NO SAVE. Cast at higher levels, it adds extra D8's. It's not game breaking necessarily, but I've had one player use it to really devastating effect. Enough to trivialize multiple encounters.

How would you limit the shapeshifting? I'm inclined to leave Sleep in the game but if it becomes a problem then talking to the player(s) about it and modifying it somehow.

[pwykersotz]

I really just don't want to deal with any of the Simalcrum schenanigans so I'm posative that's out. I don't want to ban all the Contagion options, just the Slimy Doom. Even with the three save tweet I would rather just not deal with it, my guys can be very literal by RAW. I will be sure to explicitly say we are adhering to the spirit of the rules, RAI when it comes to judicating them.

Any thoughts on the stat array or 4d6, re-roll 1's?

How would you limit the shapeshifting? I'm inclined to leave Sleep in the game but if it becomes a problem then talking to the player(s) about it and modifying it somehow.

Yeah, I know the feeling with the RAW literal players.

In terms of Shapeshifting, I've seen the fix tossed about to limit the CR to 1/2 until level 4. At level 4 the Land Druid goes up to 1/2, so you increase Moon Druid to CR1 and from there on adhere to the Level/3 = Beast CR.

[Gurka]

Any thoughts on the stat array or 4d6, re-roll 1's?

How would you limit the shapeshifting? I'm inclined to leave Sleep in the game but if it becomes a problem then talking to the player(s) about it and modifying it somehow.

I'm fine with the Stat options you've laid out.

As for shapeshifting, I actually started a thread a while ago to address just that. The trouble is that at level 2 they have 68 temp HP per short rest, which is definitely inconvenient to deal with. That's 34 (if they go brown bear) twice. Offensively, they're not anything really special, but that massive chunk of free health goes a long way toward trivializing encounters that aren't specifically tailored to deal with them.

I'd kicked around a lot of ideas, but we've been trying something in our most recent game that everybody likes. So far it's effective without being overly penalizing, and it's really flavorful and offers some cool RP value that the other people at the table have played nicely around.

When Shapeshifted, the Druid gains the Temp HP of the creature it transforms into as normal. However, if the druid leaves wild shape with half (or fewer) of his Temp HP left, the druid suffers damage equal to 1/3 of his/her Current hit points (rounding up). Reaching 0 Temp HP still forces the druid to revert to natural form, but no damage in excess of the Temp HP is carried over.

It means that druids essentially take damage at a much reduced rate than other classes, but they actually DO take damage. It also means that they can't be killed from a really big blow suffered in animal form, which you may or may not like.

[Safety Sword]

Guys, guys, guys...

Your spellcasting baddies can cast Simulacrum too. It's only broken if only PCs can do it.

[pwykersotz]

Guys, guys, guys...

Your spellcasting baddies can cast Simulacrum too. It's only broken if only PCs can do it.

That's only true based on point of view though. Looking at it from the expectations of the system as a whole, it's not in line with other abilities. The multiple threads on this have already given examples of CR adjustments needed based on summons and simulacrums. This isn't just a statistical outlier, it's off the scale in terms of power.

That said, yes, the DM can definitely make use of it too.

[Pramxnim]

For the stat array, I'd suggest avoid giving players an 18 starting stat at level 1 for 2 reasons:


It would make them feel compelled to choose a race that gives +2 to the stat in question over other choices. This limits race choice, and sometimes also class choice since there is no way for the Druid and Cleric to get an 18 in their main stat at level 1
A guaranteed 18 will make players shy away from rolling for stats, since your roll system only helps mitigate bad stats but doesn't make getting really high stats easier. While I don't like rolling for stats, sometimes it makes for weird and interesting characters



In light of this, I would suggest making the starting array 15, 15, 14, 13, 13, 10 (or 15, 15, 14, 14, 12, 10, but I feel the first array allows for more interesting characters). This allows for a +8 stat modifier total before racial traits.

For stat rolling, your method still allows for pretty mediocre rolls, so if you don't want to completely punish players who do so but want to keep the array as a real choice and not a fallback, there is one thing you could try: In the event that the PC's total stat modifier before racial traits is less than +8, allow them to boost one ability score by 2, or two different ability scores by 1, provided no score goes over 15 as a result of this boost.

So let's say the PC got really unlucky and rolled 13, 11, 10, 13, 11, 9 (a stat spread I just did using a random dice roller, giving a piddly +1 total modifier), that PC could instead get 14, 14, 11, 11, 10, 9 before racial traits (or +3 total modifier). While this method won't allow the PC to be as good as someone who picked the stat array, they will still be competent enough for most tasks.

Finally, if you really feel like you should give the PCs a bone and keep everyone on even footing, you can allow them to repeat the ability score modifier process until their total stat modifier reaches +5 (so equal to the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). That's the price they have to pay for choosing the option to roll for stats, but at least the price is not super steep.

[Tenmujiin]

For the stat array, I'd suggest avoid giving players an 18 starting stat at level 1 for 2 reasons:


It would make them feel compelled to choose a race that gives +2 to the stat in question over other choices. This limits race choice, and sometimes also class choice since there is no way for the Druid and Cleric to get an 18 in their main stat at level 1
A guaranteed 18 will make players shy away from rolling for stats, since your roll system only helps mitigate bad stats but doesn't make getting really high stats easier. While I don't like rolling for stats, sometimes it makes for weird and interesting characters



In light of this, I would suggest making the starting array 15, 15, 14, 13, 13, 10 (or 15, 15, 14, 14, 12, 10, but I feel the first array allows for more interesting characters). This allows for a +8 stat modifier total before racial traits.

For stat rolling, your method still allows for pretty mediocre rolls, so if you don't want to completely punish players who do so but want to keep the array as a real choice and not a fallback, there is one thing you could try: In the event that the PC's total stat modifier before racial traits is less than +8, allow them to boost one ability score by 2, or two different ability scores by 1, provided no score goes over 15 as a result of this boost.

So let's say the PC got really unlucky and rolled 13, 11, 10, 13, 11, 9 (a stat spread I just did using a random dice roller, giving a piddly +1 total modifier), that PC could instead get 14, 14, 11, 11, 10, 9 before racial traits (or +3 total modifier). While this method won't allow the PC to be as good as someone who picked the stat array, they will still be competent enough for most tasks.

Finally, if you really feel like you should give the PCs a bone and keep everyone on even footing, you can allow them to repeat the ability score modifier process until their total stat modifier reaches +5 (so equal to the standard array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). That's the price they have to pay for choosing the option to roll for stats, but at least the price is not super steep.

I'm thinking of allowing my players to roll for stats using the following method:
1. 4d6 drop the lowest for each stat
2. drop your highest score to 17 (if it was 18)
3. drop any other scores above 16 to 16
4. If your total modifiers are less than +4 or more than +8 then re-roll completely

Alternately they can take the standard array (which has +6 to modifiers) or 27 point buy (max 15).

Its a bit complicated but some of my players love rolling for stats, others hate it so hopefully this will give a middle ground and prevent any serious outliers. We won't be starting for a while since another guy is DMing right now and so the specific numbers may change and I may use different rolling method than 4d6 drop lowest.

I may instead use a method I saw on these forums, have each player roll one stat (4d6 drop 1) and write them in order, continue rolling until each player has rolled 4 times (we have 6 players so adjust the number of rolls per player so that the total is around 24) and then allow the players to choose one set of 6 contiguous numbers (wrapping at the end) and then all players use that set of numbers in any order as their stats.

For example generating the arrays in excel gives:
12 12 9 14 12 8 13 5 15 12 13 14 9 9 15 12 16 13 17 17 12 13 11 12

So some of the arrays we could get from this:

12 12 9 14 12 8 (the first 6 numbers)

17 17 12 13 11 12 (the last 6 numbers)

15 12 16 13 17 17(this is probably the best array from these numbers)

another set of 24:
15 7 16 14 15 12 13 11 12 15 12 18 13 8 16 9 10 14 7 15 11 11 8 14

So the best few from this set would be:
15 12 18 13 8 16 (chosen to include the 18 and the best set of numbers surrounding it)

16 14 15 12 13 11 (this set has no negative modifiers)

13 11 12 15 12 18 (this one includes the 18 but avoids the 8)

And finally (specifically to demonstrate the wrapping at the start and end but still randomly generated):
12 18 14 10 14 17 12 10 9 11 17 13 14 13 8 13 14 16 6 13 16 16 18 10

Can give you the rather ridiculous array
16 16 18 10 12 18 (last 4 and first 2)

You can always use a less random method to generate the individual numbers from this (say 5+2d6 for lower scores or 5d6 drop highest and lowest for a more average set of rolls) or a more random one (say the standard 5e method of 3d6 strait)

[Totema]

My quick and dirty fix for Simulacrum is to simply not allow simulacra to cast it. I don't especially mind that it can potentially double a character's DPR, but the chaining cheese is what really could break a game.

Personally, I'm more worried about fixing polymorph-related cheese, which unfortunately seems nearly as bad as it did back in 3.X days.

[rollingForInit]

If you have abusive players, say that simulacrums can't cast wish. On the other hand, if you have really abusive players than cannot handle a discussion, you need to also ban the Conjurer because of their level 2 ability.

In general I'd say: don't ban anything. If someone becomes an issue, deal with it then by talking to the players. Just tell the players that any cheese they want to try needs to be run by you first, and that you will ban anything that really ends up breaking the game. Or deal with it in-game by letting the characters suffer dramatic consequences (e.g. spamming simulacrum and wish to create endless fortunes would attract hoards of dragons that would kill them all).

[Balyano]

Ban Hammer
+1 Maul
Property: 3/day when you attack and hit an enemy with this weapon the target is subjected to the Banishment spell. Charisma Save DC 16.
Property [Attuned]: The DC for the Ban Hammers Banishment is 10 + your proficiency bonus + your charisma bonus, or 16, whichever is higher.

For rolling stats you could always make them pick race and background randomly, then roll stats 3d6 in order, then let them pick a class.
''what path in life would a dwarven soldier with 9 str and 16 charisma take? oh he was a bard that kept up the troops morale and with his 15 int he was a competent tactical officer.''

I suspect they wouldn't be too happy about it at first, but the characters would be more likely to have weaknesses to be worked around with feat choice, team work, and play style. They might grow to love it, I know I did.

[DanyBallon]

All right. How about replacing one of your fellow party members with a simulacrum of himself, without telling the player. He won't even know anything is wrong until you give him an order and he finds he must obey. Would that satisfy you? :-)

(I know, I know. In practice this wouldn't work. For one thing, they would notice that they only had half HP.)

Actually the caster will need to roleplay how he manage to get the other character to be present for 12 hours and this will need that the other player will be involved. And if he manage to do so through enchantment, or any other means, be sure that the victim player will have plenty of opportunities to get revenge :)

[Tenmujiin]

Actually the caster will need to roleplay how he manage to get the other character to be present for 12 hours and this will need that the other player will be involved. And if he manage to do so through enchantment, or any other means, be sure that the victim player will have plenty of opportunities to get revenge :)
1. Drug their mead
2. Keep them drugged for at least 12 hours
2.5 Optionally, kill them after the spell is cast
3. ???
4. Profit

[Gurka]

1. Drug their mead
2. Keep them drugged for at least 12 hours
2.5 Optionally, kill them after the spell is cast
3. ???
4. Profit

If you want any plan to have hope of success, then this must always be step one:

Dig a big pit.

[Z3ro]

If you want any plan to have hope of success, then this must always be step one:

Dig a big pit.

A lot of pits, and a lot of problems are buried in those pits. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more pits. You could be there all night.

[Gurka]

A lot of pits, and a lot of problems are buried in those pits. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more pits. You could be there all night.

This guy gets it.

[Perseus]

I've banned ability score increases based on race... And installed the current system.

You get three ability score points that you can put in any score you want. You may only place up to +2 in any one ability score. So you can have +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1.

Human Racial Abilities
+May place 3 ability points in 1 ability score (Can not go over 18 with this +3)
+Normal vision
+1 Skill Prof
+1 Language
+1 Tool, Instrument, or improvised weapon proficiency.
+1 Saving Throw Prof.

This is as or about as strong as the current variant human who takes Resilient. At level 4 this human can get an additional saving throw prof via resilient but... I don't see that as an issue (and neither does my group).

Genesai
+3 Ability Score Points, may use standard rules.
+Do not need to eat, sleep, or drink but may if they choose. Coming in contact with their element is enough nourishment they need.
+Darkvision
+Elemental Resistance: Take 1/2 damage from your element. At level XX you are immune to your element.
+Elemental Vulnerability: You have disadvantage on saving throws versus your rival element (fire vs. Cold ... Etc...)

+ When you cast a cantrip or make a weapon attack you can, before the attack, change that cantrip or weapon's damage to be that of your element.

[Doug Lampert]

As for myself, I don't see any problem with Contagion as it requires 3 failed saves to affect the targets for the duration, and on 3 success, the target recovers from the disease

The problem is that as written you can succeed on all three saves, and you're still under full effect for three rounds. (There's supposedly a tweeted clarification that this isn't what's intended, even though its the plain meaning of the words they published on paper.)

Did you notice that one of the illnesses makes it trivial to stun the creature? And that that same illness gives disadvantage on the save?

Legendary? Who cares! Legendary just lets you succeed at a certain number of saves! You're still stunlocked for three rounds AND you just blew all your legendary "get out of spell free" cards on a single spell. Then he hits you with it again.

[silveralen]

The problem is that as written you can succeed on all three saves, and you're still under full effect for three rounds. (There's supposedly a tweeted clarification that this isn't what's intended, even though its the plain meaning of the words they published on paper.)

Technically it never says the disease has any effect until after it fails three saves. Merely that it's been afflicted by the disease. Simply having a disease doesn't mean you feel it's effects immediately, if we go by actual diseases, and this is a natural disease.

That's how they meant for people to read it seems. What people actually read was afflicted=the conditions of the disease apply.

[MaxWilson]

The problem is that as written you can succeed on all three saves, and you're still under full effect for three rounds. (There's supposedly a tweeted clarification that this isn't what's intended, even though its the plain meaning of the words they published on paper.)

Did you notice that one of the illnesses makes it trivial to stun the creature? And that that same illness gives disadvantage on the save?

Legendary? Who cares! Legendary just lets you succeed at a certain number of saves! You're still stunlocked for three rounds AND you just blew all your legendary "get out of spell free" cards on a single spell. Then he hits you with it again.

Another point in favor of running Contagion as RAW (no delayed onset, in spite of any tweets) is that it is mechanically similar to Bestow Curse. Both Bestow Curse and Contagion require an initial "attack" (vs. AC for Contagion, vs. Wisdom for Contagion) and can impose a stunning effect at disadvantage on each round. For Contagion this is the Slimy Doom option, for Bestow Curse it is the target-Wisdom-save option. Bestow Curse is a 3rd level spell, Contagion is a 5th level spell, so Contagion actually doesn't seem out of line to me.

(I do however like the idea of making the disease not affect you during the onset period if you saved that round. That makes it fully symmetrical with Bestow Curse, and it also fits my idea of the fluff: a sudden influx of disease which your body attempts to fight off, and either rapidly succeeds or rapidly succumbs, although initially the outcome is in doubt and there are some wild swings in between. However, that is just my personal preference; YMMV.)


Technically it never says the disease has any effect until after it fails three saves. Merely that it's been afflicted by the disease. Simply having a disease doesn't mean you feel it's effects immediately, if we go by actual diseases, and this is a natural disease.

That's how they meant for people to read it seems. What people actually read was afflicted=the conditions of the disease apply.

Under this reading, Bestow Curse would be preferable to Contagion under most circumstances.

[Theodoxus]

I am loathe to allow any method of stat generation that creates a base of 16+ before racial modification. Since nearly every attack will have an ability modification on it, +4 or +5 to every attack's damage scales quite quickly - on top of that, having high starting stats devalues ASI, pushing for feats instead. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but I've found it more fun to grow in power as we play, rather than being the best specimen from the start and not having much to look forward to, regarding personal growth.

Of course, YMMV - and in contention (or maybe I feel this way because of this) my current group was granted an array of 20,20,18,18,16,16. (This was for a Pathfinder game, but it is being converted (finally) to 5th Ed.) Half the group have actually stated they'd rather have their ability scores paired down, as they feel superhuman. Even if the 5th conversion fails, they stated they'd still reduce their scores when going back to Pathfinder.

When I start a 5th campaign from scratch, I'm offering the group an option: roll d8+7 for each stat, and if you don't like the results, use the standard 27 point buy.

A max 15 is probably the most Lawful, static, not gonna budge decision I've ever made regarding anything in D&D.

[silveralen]

Under this reading, Bestow Curse would be preferable to Contagion under most circumstances.

Debatable. Contagion lasts a week and has more effects and can burn through multiple legendary saves. I think it shines in different areas or with careful planning myself.

[MaxWilson]

Debatable. Contagion lasts a week and has more effects and can burn through multiple legendary saves. I think it shines in different areas or with careful planning myself.

Bestow Curse can force someone to roll once per round at disadvantage or be stunned, from now until forever.

In other words, I agree about "it shines in different areas," and I agree that Contagion is still better at burning up legendary saves. But the week-long duration of Contagion isn't a relative advantage because Bestow Curse duration scales up just as easily, and overall I think a three-round delay before any effects kick in would make Contagion very, very situational compared to immediate disadvantage on Wisdom saves and stunning every round (plus miscellaneous effects). Ergo, "in most circumstances" Bestow Curse would be better. Burning up legendary resistance is the exception. YMMV.

[silveralen]

Bestow Curse can force someone to roll once per round at disadvantage or be stunned, from now until forever.

In other words, I agree about "it shines in different areas," and I agree that Contagion is still better at burning up legendary saves. But the week-long duration of Contagion isn't a relative advantage because Bestow Curse duration scales up just as easily, and overall I think a three-round delay before any effects kick in would make Contagion very, very situational compared to immediate disadvantage on Wisdom saves and stunning every round (plus miscellaneous effects). Ergo, "in most circumstances" Bestow Curse would be better. Burning up legendary resistance is the exception. YMMV.

Wait, can bestow curse stun someone and give them disadvantage? I glanced through really fast and thought it could only have on effect, I was in a hurry and am AFB right now though.

Duration of bestow curse is only 8 hours for a lvl 5 spell slot though. That I do remember.

[MaxWilson]

Wait, can bestow curse stun someone and give them disadvantage? I glanced through really fast and thought it could only have on effect, I was in a hurry and am AFB right now though.

Duration of bestow curse is only 8 hours for a lvl 5 spell slot though. That I do remember.

I'm AFB too, but IIRC it has all listed effects, not just one.

Duration for an 8th level slot is a year IIRC, until dispelled for 9th. In most cases though a minute should be plenty; you'd use the fifth level version not for the 8 hour duration but to remove the Concentration requirement.

[McBars]

Man some of you have some bat crap insane homebrew going on...

If you are worried about the simulacrum cheese, particularly due to strict RAW players, simply lay out clear house rules banning the widely discussed munchkin tactics: No Simulacrum may cast simulacrum or wish.

If you've done that, I don't see a reason to ban the spell as others have pointed out it's very expensive and time-consuming making it impractical to use in many adventuring situations

[silveralen]

I'm AFB too, but IIRC it has all listed effects, not just one.

Duration for an 8th level slot is a year IIRC, until dispelled for 9th. In most cases though a minute should be plenty; you'd use the fifth level version not for the 8 hour duration but to remove the Concentration requirement.

Just double checked, bestow curse is only one effect.

[Safety Sword]

Man some of you have some bat crap insane homebrew going on...

If you are worried about the simulacrum cheese, particularly due to strict RAW players, simply lay out clear house rules banning the widely discussed munchkin tactics: No Simulacrum may cast simulacrum or wish.

If you've done that, I don't see a reason to ban the spell as others have pointed out it's very expensive and time-consuming making it impractical to use in many adventuring situations

Agreed. +1. Yes.

It's not really that hard. You're not ruining people's fun if you spell these things out. You're making the game run smoothly for your group.

[Kyutaru]

My players suggested a modification to Simulacrum when I discussed its nature. Simulacrum targets a party member and imbues him with the spellcasting powers of the original caster. You still get a duplicate of yourself, but it's one that maintains the party limit.

[MaxWilson]

Just double checked, bestow curse is only one effect.

Well, that is significantly less good than Contagion. Thanks for checking. Too bad though.

[INDYSTAR188]

Man some of you have some bat crap insane homebrew going on...

If you are worried about the simulacrum cheese, particularly due to strict RAW players, simply lay out clear house rules banning the widely discussed munchkin tactics: No Simulacrum may cast simulacrum or wish.

If you've done that, I don't see a reason to ban the spell as others have pointed out it's very expensive and time-consuming making it impractical to use in many adventuring situations

Agreed. +1. Yes.

It's not really that hard. You're not ruining people's fun if you spell these things out. You're making the game run smoothly for your group.

Well the really good news is that compared to other editions, there seems to be only two or three things that are potentially issues and worth banning. Is it really so bat-crap insane to ban three abusable or un-balanced spells in order to protect myself as a DM and the campaign? There's another thread right now where people are talking about how to homebrew races like Ogre and Thri-Kreen but removing some elements in the name of game balance and DM sanity is crazy? So far my ban list is Simulacrum, Contagion: Slimy Doom, and summoned Pixies cannot cast Polymorph. Like I said up-thread somewhere I just don't want to deal with it period.

I work a full-time job, I am in grad school, I am also in the Navy Reserves and I have a 4 year old and a baby coming. My opportunities to game are every other Saturday thanks to my wife being generous enough to take care of the kiddo's for me while I hobby it up with my buddies.

I don't have time to worry about the spell which in my experience has mostly been used for cheese builds. There are over a hundred spells listed, I doubt it's going to seriously ruin anyone's fun and it keeps me from having to worry about a cheesy, abusable spell.

[Safety Sword]

Well the really good news is that compared to other editions, there seems to be only two or three things that are potentially issues and worth banning. Is it really so bat-crap insane to ban three abusable or un-balanced spells in order to protect myself as a DM and the campaign? There's another thread right now where people are talking about how to homebrew races like Ogre and Thri-Kreen but removing some elements in the name of game balance and DM sanity is crazy? So far my ban list is Simulacrum, Contagion: Slimy Doom, and summoned Pixies cannot cast Polymorph. Like I said up-thread somewhere I just don't want to deal with it period.

I work a full-time job, I am in grad school, I am also in the Navy Reserves and I have a 4 year old and a baby coming. My opportunities to game are every other Saturday thanks to my wife being generous enough to take care of the kiddo's for me while I hobby it up with my buddies.

I don't have time to worry about the spell which in my experience has mostly been used for cheese builds. There are over a hundred spells listed, I doubt it's going to seriously ruin anyone's fun and it keeps me from having to worry about a cheesy, abusable spell.

That's fine too.

In my experience most of the exploits people come up with can be knocked on the head with a reasonable reading of the rule and assuming the intent of the rules is not to gain undue mechanical advantage.

Other than that you can play your magic elf game as an enchanted dwarf game if you like. As long as the people at your table like what's going on (players and DM) then just keep doing it.

[INDYSTAR188]

In my experience most of the exploits people come up with can be knocked on the head with a reasonable reading of the rule and assuming the intent of the rules is not to gain undue mechanical advantage.

Other than that you can play your magic elf game as an enchanted dwarf game if you like. As long as the people at your table like what's going on (players and DM) then just keep doing it.

I hear what you're saying and I'm not disagreeing with you. The number one goal at the table is fun, for the players and for me. If a player really wants to do something I try my absolute best to accomodate it. Someone up-thread mentioned banning sleep for instance, my approach would be exactly what your describing here.

I just feel like those three spells mentioned are above and beyond the approach of 'general reasonable reading of the rules' because they inherently provide a lot of room for an 'undue mechanical advantage' from their very wording in the book, of course YMMV.

What I really wanted was to see if there are any other spells, abilities, or feats I should be aware of and careful with. Also, if there are any rules folks lay down at the beginning of their 5E game that might be useful for my own.

[Fwiffo86]

If it makes you uncomfortable, remove it. But remove it before game begins. That is the fair way to deal with possible issues.

Sleep:
In my experience so far... sleep is nowhere near as powerful as people think. Except for dealing with 1 - 2 opponents. That is all that seems to be effected in dropping it on a group. The available HP being rolled just doesn't cut it in most cases.

[Demonic Spoon]

I don't have time to worry about the spell which in my experience has mostly been used for cheese builds

What do you mean "in your experience"? Have you actually played a bunch of 5e games where the wizard player cheesed Simulacrum, or are you talking about your experience being reading these forums?

You know, the forums where people will theorycraft up the cheesiest cheese possible? Because the latter is done purely as an amusing mental exercise by those people who enjoy it. I guarantee that none of the people who came up with the various ways to cheese Simulacrum actually do that regularly in real games. Think of it this way: If half of the people who participate in coming up with cheese actually did that in real games, then 3.x and pathfinder would have been literally unplayable.


Anyway, your ban list is generally small and reasonable, but it's also perfectly reasonable to say that bans are over the top. Simulacrum is only a problem when cheesed, and can be fixed by tiny house rules that modify its interaction with things like Wish. Slimy Doom is fixable by interpreting the text in the way that it was almost certainly intended to be interpreted.


Also, if there are any rules folks lay down at the beginning of their 5E game that might be useful for my own.

-I would look at changing the way moon druid wild shape works from levels 2-3. Past that it's probably fine, but many parties' experience has been that moon druids completely overshadow the rest of the party from level 2 to 3 because brown bears are really strong. My preferred houserule is just that they only get CR 1/2 forms until level 4, at which point progression continues per normal.

-I made some houserule changes to Medicine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380538-5E-Changes-to-Wisdom(Medicine)). This isn't to stop the game from breaking, more to shore up an otherwise weak option, so not using this isn't going to break anything.

[INDYSTAR188]

What do you mean "in your experience"? Have you actually played a bunch of 5e games where the wizard player cheesed Simulacrum, or are you talking about your experience being reading these forums?

No I'm talking about some 3.5 games I played in where Simularcrum became an issue. I don't have any in-game experience with 5E, hence this thread where I am looking for advise from people who do have that experience.

Now I'm not currently playing with any of the folks who caused the Simularcrum (and lots of other) issues, however a couple of my players would describe themselves as 'power gamers'. They would like to have 18-20's in their primary abilities immediately. They would prefer to work out a way to create their own magic items and/or spells. They would absolutely look for the 'I win' buttons if they can. The whole reason I want to play 5E is so we can get away from that.

I don't think there is any malicious intent from these guys, they've just been playing TRPG's for 20 years or so and enjoy optimizing to the best of their abilities. They also enjoy roleplaying, and the social aspects of hanging out, and in-game jokes. I don't want to make it sound like they're terrible people or players. I'm sure if I discussed issues with them they would be reasonable, but I thought handling the issue upfront with a ban on spells I'm not comfortable with was the responsible way to go about it.

[Shining Wrath]

Guys, guys, guys...

Your spellcasting baddies can cast Simulacrum too. It's only broken if only PCs can do it.

And that leads to this scenario:

"You enter the lair of the lich-king Ignatz. He has spent the last 1,000 years creating a Simulacrum of himself, daily. Upon seeing you 5 liches apiece wish for molten silver to run down the marrow of your bones. You all die screaming. Six of the 365,250 liches lose the ability to cast Wish ever again. The rest point and laugh at the unlucky six, then set about desecrating your corpses, because hey, being one lich out of a few hundred thousand gets boring".

Which is to say once you allow the foulest and most odorous of cheese into the campaign by saying "The NPCs will use it, too" the players ought to be utterly and absolutely doomed. For another example, Fabricate cheese to make yourself rich - since you aren't the first wizard ever, if that cheese is allowed, there's one of two possibilities.
1) Some other wizards thought of it centuries before you were born, and do not tolerate competition. Try to do that, receive an offer you can't refuse from the Fabrication Guild of Wizards.
2) Some other wizards thought of it centuries before you were born, and as a result the various artisans guilds (armor, weapons, ladders, whatever) have spent the money to hire wizards to scry for someone trying to put them out of business, and more money to hire some extremely lethal assassins to put those people out of business. Try to do that, receive well-placed shiv between ribs.

And so on for other examples of cheese. Necromancer hordes draw the attention of clerics of the gods of Life, etc.

[Shining Wrath]

If it makes you uncomfortable, remove it. But remove it before game begins. That is the fair way to deal with possible issues.

Sleep:
In my experience so far... sleep is nowhere near as powerful as people think. Except for dealing with 1 - 2 opponents. That is all that seems to be effected in dropping it on a group. The available HP being rolled just doesn't cut it in most cases.

Sleep can be nerfed by kittens. Or any other life forms in the vicinity, such as familiars and animal companions. It takes out the lowest HP targets first.

[Yagyujubei]

Guys, guys, guys...

Your spellcasting baddies can cast Simulacrum too. It's only broken if only PCs can do it.

yeah I'd love to be the DM of your group that says "Oh hay, it's time for the final battle, BTW the BBG that you encountered a few times over the length of this campaign has spent this whole time spawning simulacrums of himself and there are 50,000 of them. good luck"

[INDYSTAR188]

Sleep can be nerfed by kittens. Or any other life forms in the vicinity, such as familiars and animal companions. It takes out the lowest HP targets first.

I would never have even thought about that applying to animals. Can you imagine, you're being waylaid by bandits in the Kingswood. The Wizard casts sleep and suddenly 10 jaybirds fall to the ground then he looks up at the sky and shouts "REALLY?!" and then it starts raining.

[Perseus]

yeah I'd love to be the DM of your group that says "Oh hay, it's time for the final battle, BTW the BBG that you encountered a few times over the length of this campaign has spent this whole time spawning simulacrums of himself and there are 50,000 of them. good luck"

In a 3.5 game a Demon whatever dude (Duke or something) had about 100,000 of them.

He was going to use them to destroy another demon duke person whatever but we thought he was going to invade the material plane...

We harassed him from time to time and tan into a few copies ... We finally found the real him and I uber charged him for 8,000 points of damage (note: I was the lowest tier/least optimized party member haha)

He went squish and for a while we thought it was just another Sim... Since the DM described it as him turning to liquid (Sims melted when destroyed).

Lots of fun :)

[Safety Sword]

yeah I'd love to be the DM of your group that says "Oh hay, it's time for the final battle, BTW the BBG that you encountered a few times over the length of this campaign has spent this whole time spawning simulacrums of himself and there are 50,000 of them. good luck"

Currently I'm the DM of both of my games. It's pretty standard for me to use the same optimization tricks that my players use to build bad guys, after all, we all know the system. And we all look for those things that will end encounters quickly.

Getting charged for hundreds of hit points is clearly not as fun as charging every monster you meet for hundreds of points for players. However they see no problem with charging and grappling my blinded, held, deafened BBEG.

Even though charging and grappling can destroy encounters they are not things you would ban in a game. They're something you use in small sprinkles yourself as a DM.

[Perseus]

Currently I'm the DM of both of my games. It's pretty standard for me to use the same optimization tricks that my players use to build bad guys, after all, we all know the system. And we all look for those things that will end encounters quickly.

Totally a quality of a good DM. The world should evolve and learn from the PCs just as the PCs may evolve and learn from the world.

Of course players who use want to use optimization but not defend against optimization are pretty petty. I had a fellow player who would wine and moan anytime the DM didn't play a monster straight from the MM... And yet was playing an optimized DMM Clericzilla...